Story of Latin "-us" and Greek "-os"

[arvistro]

No, I don't know the story, but maybe there are people who could help me out.
Latin masculine names ended with -us. Gaius Julius Caesarus.
Greek with "-os", "-is".
Aristotelis.

Greeks have preserved it. Latins lost it during vulgar Latin period. Balts have it today (which of course is why I am interested).
It should be smth coming from proto-ie.
And another question - did other European or non European IE languages have this type of mascular nominative, if so when and how it got lost?
Can you advise me smth to read in more detail?

 

[Yetos]

No, I don't know the story, but maybe there are people who could help me out.
Latin masculine names ended with -us. Gaius Julius Caesarus.
Greek with "-os", "-is".
Aristotelis.

Greeks have preserved it. Latins lost it during vulgar Latin period. Balts have it today (which of course is why I am interested).
It should be smth coming from proto-ie.
And another question - did other European or non European IE languages have this type of mascular nominative, if so when and how it got lost?
Can you advise me smth to read in more detail?

yes, Celts had it also, as -os

Lindos
Taranis
Atumnos
Ogmios
Belenos
Arvenos -us
Camulos -us
Lucetios Nemeton
Carnomnos cernumnos
Tutatis (asterix & Obelix)
Maponos


I don't know if Aryans used -os

ending -os can be found also in Hungary.

South Slavic -ic is alternative of -is which can be found from Greece to Baltic lands

 

[Theodorik]

Surprisingly, similar endings are also found in the ancient Babylonian Semitic language knows as Akkadian.
"

arrum'(the/a) king'nominative(masculine singular)

arrim'(the/a) king'genitive(masculine singular)

arram'(the/a) king'accusative(masculine singular)"
http://www.sron.nl/~jheise/akkadian/noun.html#case

Latin
Neuter:

	bellum, –ī war n.
Singular	Plural
Nominative	bellum	–um	bella	–a
Vocative	bellum	–um	bella	–a
Accusative	bellum	–um	bella	–a
Genitive	bellī	–ī	bellōrum	–ōrum
Dative	bellō	–ō	bellīs	–īs
Ablative	bellō	–ō	bellīs	–īs
Locative	bellō	–ō	bellīs	–īs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension
Then there is Gothic, a Germanic language.

Case	sunus, sunjus son m.	faíhu property n.
Singular	Plural	Singular
Nominative	sunus	–us	sunjus	–jus	faíhu	–u
Accusative	sunu	–u	sununs	–uns	faíhu	–u
Vocative	sunu	–u
Genitive	sunáus	–áus	suniwē	–iwē	faíháus	–áus
Dative	sunáu	–áu	sunum	–um	faíháu	–áu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_declension

Sanksrit
a-stems[edit]

A-stems (/ə/ or /aː/) comprise the largest class of nouns. As a rule, nouns belonging to this class, with the uninflected stem ending in short-a (/ə/), are either masculine or neuter. Nouns ending in long-A (/aː/) are almost always feminine. A-stem adjectives take the masculine and neuter in short-a (/ə/), and feminine in long-A (/aː/) in their stems. This class is so big because it also comprises the Proto-Indo-European o-stems.

	Masculine (kāma-)	Neuter (āsya- 'mouth')	Feminine (kānta- 'beloved')
Singular	Dual	Plural	Singular	Dual	Plural	Singular	Dual	Plural
Nominative	kā́mas	kā́mau	kā́mās	āsyàm	āsyè	āsyā̀ni	kāntā	kānte	kāntās
Accusative	kā́mam	kā́mau	kā́mān	āsyàm	āsyè	āsyā̀ni	kāntām	kānte	kāntās
Instrumental	kā́mena	kā́mābhyām	kā́mais	āsyèna	āsyā̀bhyām	āsyāìs	kāntayā	kāntābhyām	kāntābhis
Dative	kā́māya	kā́mābhyām	kā́mebhyas	āsyā̀ya	āsyā̀bhyām	āsyèbhyas	kāntāyai	kāntābhyām	kāntābhyās
Ablative	kā́māt	kā́mābhyām	kā́mebhyas	āsyā̀t	āsyā̀bhyām	āsyèbhyas	kāntāyās	kāntābhyām	kāntābhyās
Genitive	kā́masya	kā́mayos	kā́mānām	āsyàsya	āsyàyos	āsyā̀nām	kāntāyās	kāntayos	kāntānām
Locative	kā́me	kā́mayos	kā́meṣu	āsyè	āsyàyos	āsyèṣu	kāntāyām	kāntayos	kāntāsu
Vocative	kā́ma	kā́mau	kā́mās	ā́sya	āsyè	āsyā̀ni	kānte	kānte	kāntās

i- and u-stems[edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit_nouns

 

[Dalmat]

yes, Celts had it also, as -os

Lindos Taranis Atumnos etc

I don't know if Aryans used -os

ending -os can be found also in Hungary.

South Slavic -ic is alternative of -is which can be found from Greece to Baltic lands

i am not sure what -is is, but suffix -ić was made by having plural diminutive put into singular making surname

-ić is a suffix in most cases for diminutive, and in English it pretty much equates to -ling


zerg-> zergling



So if name of ancestor was Mark, they would be Marklings or Markići, and singular of that would be
Markić=Markling




Also dont forget those Celts were named by Romans, by Roman language standards

 

[Yetos]

i am not sure what -is is, but suffix -ić was made by having plural diminutive put into singular making surname

-ić is a suffix in most cases for diminutive, and in English it pretty much equates to -ling

zerg-> zergling



So if name of ancestor was Mark, they would be Marklings or Markići, and singular of that would be
Markić=Markling




Also dont forget those Celts were named by Romans, by Roman language standards

about -ic maybe I am wrong,
since you are a Slav you know better,


about celts, wrong the name is given by Greeks as Keltos, Herodotos named them Kelts Keltos


Hive -> Zerg ->Zergling

 

[Dalmat]

about -ic maybe I am wrong,
since you are a Slav you know better,


about celts, wrong the name is given by Greeks as Keltos, Herodotos named them Kelts Keltos


Hive -> Zerg ->Zergling

see, keltos is greek given name, they were not even kelts for themselves
My point was that kelts didnt use that ending in names, but Romans named them like that because romans wrote names like that




-ić is a diminutive like -ling in english, surnames came from tribes/clans or big families, usually those who end with -o(e)vich come from family name, and those who dont come from clan, name of a leader, or locality(like name of the village), or even nickname, because -ov,/-ev before is possessive that comes from name of father or paternal male ancestor of the family.


Markov-Marković, Marks-Marksling


its basically surname rule we have

 

[arvistro]

I also have found a list of Celtic given names. Only Roman/Greek typed names have this ending.
I checked Persian Kings. First I got a bit yay, but then realized Cyrus, Xerxes, Darius, etc were Greek interpretation..
Seems Indo-Iranians did not have it.

Slavs dont have it. At least since OCS. But at least Russian chronicles had a few cases of their symbol 'b' (mjagkiy znak, the one that looks a bit like small b) used in endings of their kings.
Maybe Lithuanian -as => Latvian -s => (old/proto) Slavic/Russian -mjagkiy znak? Totally out of blue assumption

 

[arvistro]

Update - I checked Theodoric's link and it seems Goths had those. Most if not all masculines were -s.
Thanks, that shows it was still there quite recently.

 

[MOESAN]

see, keltos is greek given name, they were not even kelts for themselves
My point was that kelts didnt use that ending in names, but Romans named them like that because romans wrote names like that

let's read some books written by specialists and not say affirmations without any basis:
sometime it is true some personal names can reach us throug a foreign intermediary and they can be changed in their endings, but here you ar wrong all the way here:
common nouns in celtic had these nouns endings (declintions)
kûlos : back (see latin culus : rear, "bottom", ace
iros : man (sexe) see latin uir
litanos : broad, wide
eqos (gaul- epos): horse see latin equus
lânos : full

celtic had endings like -os, -a, -on, -u, -is -
the greek or italian identity of the translater or reporter can put some hesitation concerning -os/-us but it remains that all I-Ean languages had a declintion system very similar in ancient times, which evoluated differently by time -
I've no time tonight but I'll copy you the reconstructed system of old celtic language declintions

here under, just a few phrases showing you that gaulish by instance was still an archaic language AND HERE IT IS NOT THE REPORT OF A ROMAN OR A GREEK!

segomaros ouilloneos tooutiious namausatis eidrou bêlêsami sosin nemetôn (written in a greek system of letters, not by a Greek)
"Segomaros Villonos son of the city of Nîmes, I have made to Belisama this temple"
martialis dannotali ieuru ucuete sosin celicnon etic gobedbi dugiiontiio ucuetin in alisia
"Martialis, Dannotatos son, I have made this tower (?) to Ukuetis and to ar priests who worship Ukuetis in Alisia" (Alise-Sainte-Reine, Burgundya France)

 

[arvistro]

I checked Hittites also had -s Nominative form.
So, Sanscrit had it, Latin had it, Old Greek had it, Greek has it, Goth had it, Balts have it.

It seems to be an old IE feature that was present both in Centum and Satem languages. Currently in Europe only Greeks and Balts still use it. Early centuries AD it was still used by Romans (until vulgar Latin), Greeks (use today), Goths (extinct proto-German, East Germanic), Balts (use today).
But on times of the first Old Slavonic chronicles, Norse sagas (Old Norse had lost this feature, maybe it was present in Proto-Norse before 800 AD as -iz, -uz, -az; judging from very few word examples on wiki, but no counterexamples) it was gone.
Celts and Slavs? Any guess? <- for Celts look above and hopefully below for Moesan's contribution
Also - any guess about proto-Norse? Am I right assuming it there as -iz, -uz, -az?

Also - what happened through the centuries 500-800 to all around Europe people changing/simplifying languages and omitting this feature independently? Rome, (proto)Germans, Slavs?

 

[arvistro]

Another update - according to wiki Old Church Slavonic (written ~8/900 AD) masculine nominative always ends with -ъ (soft sign, mjagkiy znak). Could be a relic from -s. (i.e. Latvian turned Lithuanian -as into -s and in Latgalian (East dialect of Latvian) this "s" is spelled really soft)

So, now my theory says this -
When I named a son (commoner or ruler) on 500 AD, depending on where in Europe I was his name would be [root]us, [root]os, [root]is, [root]iz, etc.

??? Something in between AD 500 and AD 1000 ???

When I named a son (commoner or ruler) on 1000 AD, then in most of Europe his name would be [root], with exceptions in Balts, Greeks. Old Slavs maybe used [root]ъ but that went extinct as well.

 

[Yetos]

this is the A type of nouns in after Archaic Greek (homeric is long story)
Ending in -as -is -ας -ης

	σε -ας	σε -ης (οξύτονα)	σε -ης (παροξύτονα)	σε -ης
ὁ τοῦ τῷ τὸν ὦ	νεανί-ας νεανί-ου νεανί-ᾳ νεανί-αν νεανί-α	ποιητ-ής ποιητ-οῦ ποιητ-ῇ ποιητ-ήν ποιητ-ά	στρατιώτ-ης στρατιώτ-ου στρατιώτ-ῃ στρατιώτ-ην στρατιώτ-α*	εὐπατρίδ-ης εὐπατρίδ-ου εὐπατρίδ-ῃ εὐπατρίδ-ην εὐπατρίδ-η
οἱ τῶν τοῖς τοὺς ὦ	νεανί-αι νεανι-ῶν νεανί-αις νεανί-ας νεανί-αι	ποιητ-αί ποιητ-ῶν ποιητ-αῖς ποιητ-άς ποιητ-αί	στρατιῶτ-αι στρατιωτ-ῶν στρατιώτ-αις στρατιώτ-ας στρατιῶτ-αι	εὐπατρίδ-αι εὐπατριδ-ῶν εὐπατρίδ-αις εὐπατρίδ-ας εὐπατρίδ-αι

as you we have change of tone in possesive plural
also a change in ending when we pronounce from -η to α if is after a city a nationality etc or if ends at -της


type B ending in -os

	(οξύτονα) (τονίζονται στη λήγουσα)	(παροξύτονα ή προπερισπώμενα)(τονίζονται στη παραλήγουσα)	(προπαροξύτονα) (τονίζονται στη προπαραλήγουσα)
ὁ τοῦ τῷ τὸν ὦ	θε-ὸς θε-οῦ θε-ῷ θε-ὸν θε-ὲ	λόγ-ος λόγ-ου λόγ-ῳ λόγ-ον λόγ-ε	ἄνθρωπ-ος ἀνθρώπ-ου * ἀνθρώπ-ῳ ἄνθρωπ-ον ἄνθρωπ-ε
οἱ τῶν τοῖς τοὺς ὦ	θε-οὶ θε-ῶν θε-οῖς θε-οὺς θε-οὶ	λόγ-οι λόγ-ων λόγ-οις λόγ-ους λόγ-οι	ἄνθρωπ-οι ἀνθρώπ-ων ἀνθρώπ-οις ἀνθρώπ-ους ἄνθρωπ-οι

*as see we have change of tone only when the tone is in 3rd from last, and moves to pre-last syllaber

type A and B and are normal

type is normal but specialized

lets see the -us -υς and ως (ω is omega a long sound among oo and -u) many times we find it as u in other languages

Ενικός αριθμός
ὁ τοῦ τῷ τὸν ὦ	ἥρω-ς ἥρω-ος ἥρω-ι ἥρω-α ἥρω-ς	θὼ-ς1 θω-ὸς θω-ὶ θῶ-α θὼ-ς	βότρυ-ς2 βότρυ-ος βότρυ-ϊ βότρυ-ν βότρυ	ἰχθὺ-ς3 ἰχθύ-ος ἰχθύ-ϊ ἰχθὺ-ν ἰχθὺ	δρῦ-ς4 δρυ-ὸς δρυ-ΐ δρῦ-ν δρῦ
Πληθυντικός αριθμός
οἱ τῶν τοῖς τοὺς ὦ	ἥρω-ες ἡρώ-ων ἥρω-σι(ν) ἥρω-ας ἥρω-ες	θῶ-ες θώ-ων θω-σὶ(ν) θῶ-ας θῶ-ες	βότρυ-ες βοτρύ-ων βότρυ-σι(ν) βότρυ-ς βότρυ-ες	ἰχθύ-ες ἰχθύ-ων ἰχθύ-σι(ν) ἰχθῦ-ς ἰχθύ-ες	δρύ-ες δρυ-ῶν δρυ-σὶ(ν) δρῦ-ς δρύ-ες

those are which tone is in last and pre-last syllaber
we also change of latters and tone

δύναμι-ς δυνάμε-ως δυνάμει δύναμι-ν δύναμι	πόλι-ς πόλε-ως πόλει πόλι-ν πόλι	ὁ τοῦ τῷ τὸν ὦ	πέλεκυ-ς1* πελέκε-ως * πελέκ-ει πέλεκυ-ν πέλεκυ	τό τοῦ τῷ τό ὦ	ἄστυ2 ἄστε-ως ἄστει ἄστυ ἄστυ
Πληθυντικός αριθμός
αἱ τῶν ταῖς τὰς ὦ	δυνάμεις δυνάμε-ων δυνάμε-σι(ν) δυνάμεις δυνάμεις	πόλεις πόλε-ων πόλε-σι(ν) πόλεις πόλεις	οἱ τῶν τοῖς τοὺς ὦ	πελέκεις πελέκε-ων πελέκε-σι(ν) πελέκεις πελέκεις	τά τῶν τοῖς τά ὦ	ἄστη ἄστε-ων ἄστε-σι(ν) ἄστη ἄστη

the above * are when the tone is before pre-last


there many others in Γ type, but no need to post them
the -ix -ax ending in greek -ΙΞ -AΞ is after κ+ς g+s h+s

for example
πτερυξ pterux -pterix wing
πτερυγ-ος


Type Γ also contains the ending in -er -or -ηρ -ωρ
which I think we found them in Modern European

 

[MOESAN]

here what I found in a book about celtic languages history
maybe a bit simplified?

declinson nominative vocative accusative genitive dative
-a noun root (feminine)
singular	-a	-a	-an	-as	-i
dual		-ai		-abin
plural	-as	-as	-as	-on	-abis
-i noun root
singular	-is	-is	-in	-os	-i
neutral singular	-i	-i	-i	-os	-i
plural	-is	-is	-is	-ion	-ibis
neutral plural	-ia	-ia	-ia	-ion	-ibis
-u noun root
singular	-us	-us	-un	-ouos	-ou
neutral singular	-u	-u	-u	-ouos	-ou
dual		-û		-ubin/-ibin
plural	-oues	-oues	-û	-ouon	-ubis
neutral plural	-oua	-oua	-oua	-ouon	-ubis
-consonnant noun root
singular	-s	-s	-en	-os	-i
dual		-e		-obin
plural	-es	-es	-as	-on	-obis

 

[arvistro]

So, Celtic masc nominative was -s (-is, us) as well. Do you know when such form was last attested?
Currently to me everything points to dramatic changes in 500-1000 AD period when in most of Europe grammar was changed. What is strange is that for language development 500 years should be nothing, small period of time, and such a change is too much of a coincidence to happen simultaneusly/independently around different groups of languages. This change took over the whole Europe (except peripherial Balts and then stable Byzantia). From proto Old Norse (attested on runes ~500 AD) to Latin. From Celts to Germans (Goth). OK, on Slavs I don't have enough data.

 

[Gorgonzola]

There is also something interesting about latin. Some of the ancient roman latin words ended with -um. For example: Illyricum Sacrum, aurum (gold), caelum (sky), gaudium and beatum (joy), pomum (apple), castellum (castle), centum (a hundred), evangelium (gospel) etc.

 

[arvistro]

In big lines in Latin -um was (one of) neutral word nominatives, masculines had -us/-os/-s mostly. With few exceptions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension

 

[Yetos]

There is also something interesting about latin. Some of the ancient roman latin words ended with -um. For example: Illyricum Sacrum, aurum (gold), caelum (sky), gaudium and beatum (joy), pomum (apple), castellum (castle), centum (a hundred), evangelium (gospel) etc.

Latin -um is Greek -o, -on, clear neutral for example
Ευαγγελιον Evangelium (the word is greek a loan to Latin)
Sanctum Ιερον pomum μηλον

 

[Gorgonzola]

Latin -um is Greek -o, -on, clear neutral for example
Ευαγγελιον Evangelium (the word is greek a loan to Latin)
Sanctum Ιερον pomum μηλον

How do you know that -um derives from greek and how do you know this words are loans from greek?
Do you have any concrete proof about that?

 

[MOESAN]

it is not my knowledge but what is said by scholars:
a lot of words were loaned by latin from greek, particularly concerning religion words but not only
the latin -um ending is not from greek, only the word body (root) is

personal thought: is is curious the greek Y corresponding theorically to a /U/ sound turned into /Y/ = /Ü/ in german and into /I/ in latin
had it been pronounced /Y/ = /Ü/ too in some greek dialetcs???

 

[Yetos]

How do you know that -um derives from greek and how do you know this words are loans from greek?
Do you have any concrete proof about that?

did I said that?

I said Latin -um is Greek -on meaning that -on Greek is Latin -um same
Evangellium is Greek word, Evangelium in Latin is a loan from Greek,
Ευ+αγγελω
rest is your misunderstanding or my not perfect English, choose,