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Thread: Native phenotypes of Italian villages in Eastern Liguria/NW Toscana

  1. #26
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    I reviewed all of the pictures in the thread, looking at all the ones large enough for some kind of "classification". I think the ones pertinent to this kind of discussion are the ones with very local surnames or long established pedigrees in the area. This particular set qualifies, and they have very "local" faces as well. Just click on the images to enlarge.

    The attachments work, just click on attachment.. I don't know why the picture itself doesn't post for those, however.


    FiasellaPrimoPianoweb.jpg
    49893.jpg
    There is a younger picture of Loris Bononi as a younger man on Google, but I can't upoad it for some reason:
    969694_259120270894975_2035396677_n.jpg


    He has a very peculiar nose, but other than that, a local face.
    20120906154105-427002_10150741600498968_1481486129_n.jpg




    Last edited by Angela; 06-10-14 at 02:38.


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    Last edited by Angela; 07-10-14 at 21:14.

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    Series continued:

    Andrea Calevo-there are lots of pictures on Google. This one shows him partly in profile. Unfortunately, I can't post it directly for some reason:
    http://genova.ogginotizie.it/GUI/fil...calevo%202.jpg

    02mod-200x290.jpg










    I'm going to scream if these don't post, as I've dumped all my attachments. It's a good thing it rained all day yesterday!

    Anyway, there they are Mars...What do you think?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Angela; 06-10-14 at 03:00.

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    I hope this picture of Calevo does post:
    imprenditore_Andrea_Calevo.jpg
    His eyes are blue if it matters.

    Perhaps Moesan can chime in about "typology". I'm hopeless...I did spend some time going through the writings of the old school anthropologists, and there was disagreement among them and even some internal inconsistency within the work of the individuals themselves.

    I hate to even mention some of these people, as they seem to have a reputation as a bunch of racists, but according to Madison Grant's map, this particular area is basically Alpine, with some hot spots of "Nordic", and it borders the more "Mediterranean" western Liguria.

    Czekanowsky? sees the whole Ligurian coast as "Mediterranean" with Alpine only up toward Emilia it looks like. I'm not sure about that...not if my pictures are accurate, and I think they are.

    Deniker is different again, with Atlanto-Med along the coast, and Dinaric and Occidental to the north but still within the area. By Occidental he apparently meant something corresponding to Czekanowski's Lapponoid race, which was supposedly the race of the paleolithic inhabitants of Europe, with scattered remnants throughout the continent. I see what he's getting at here...some of us have those square or rectangular broad faces with robust bones and strong jaws which certainly don't fit my understanding of Med types, but don't fit what I'm gathering is the "round" Alpine type either.

    I don't get this "Dinaric" thing. If its definition depends on a really short head with no occiput, then we don't have any, or at least we have very few. Likewise if it means a curved nose. Long noses we have, but they're totally straight, some high rooted, some not, some rather narrow all the way down, some broader at the tip, but I see those noses on virtually every Greek and Roman statue of the Classical Age, which would make every one of them "Dinaric".

    I think I mentioned upthread that from my personal experience, Biasutti's map of pigmentation in Italy is spot on:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...suttiMappa.png

    I'm therefore inclined to think that he has a similarly acute grasp of Italian genetics in terms of these "types".
    http://s18.postimg.org/oiqyxcujt/raz...asutti1954.jpg
    I think that area of "Med" type is down toward Lucca if I'm not mistaken.

    Which brings me to the fact, to be blunt, that the "classifications" done on Anthroboards, from my limited exposure to them, are "hooey". If you're going to do this, it seems to me you should be going with one of the creators of this scheme, and not making up terms and definitions as you please. As just one example, the maps I've seen show "Atlanto Med" as having a very small presence in Iberia, yet every Iberian is classified as Atlanto-Med on these Boards. If their face is at all wide, they're "Atlantid" whatever that is. All Italians are Dinaro something.

    If the "classifiers" didn't know the place of origin of the people in the photos, I bet that more than 50% of the classifications would change. If the pictures were all photoshopped to a grey color tone, most of the 'classifications' done by these people would be wrong.

    Anyway, that's my take on it. The only person I've encountered who seems to have a grasp of this is Moesan, so I hope he chimes in...

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    Some foreign in that video though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUuh4qa1ty4

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    Indeed. We have quite a contingent of newcomers recently, as do many places in Italy.
    http://sprarlunigiana.blogspot.com/

    They're quite easy for us to spot, but I have no doubt they will show up on some anthrofora Board or other as examples of "native" or "indigenous" phenotypes. That's all in addition to the internal immigration, of course. You're pretty likely even in the hinterlands of the Lunigiana to find scallili (strufoli) being sold, and you can find pretty good cassata too, not to mention what's available in La Spezia.

    There are some issues with these new immigrants in the local schools, although attempts are being made, often precisely through those schools, to integrate them into the local culture.


    The festival in a place like Fivizzano, which is based on a "neighborhood" system somewhat like that of Siena, has, or at least used to have, stricter rules about participation in these kinds of events.

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    Eh yes, today is a bit difficult to post a crowd pic or a video without foreigner of mixed people. So are you from Lunigiana?good place :P

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    Ah, do you know it? So far as I can tell from genealogical research, all of my mother's mother's people, and some of my mother's father's people have lived in the Lunigiana since at least the mid 1500's. Some of my mother's father's people originated from closer to La Spezia, and there are a few gaps in that line, mainly because of the destruction of many of the records during the war, but most originally, I think, from "La Terra di Luni".

    I was born in the Central Lunigiana, (very near one of the presumed ancestral towns of la famiglia Buonaparte) and spent my childhood in the central Lungiana and around La Spezia, where generations of the men in my family have worked, usually with some connection to the Arsenale. and have never broken my ties. All my summers were spent there before I started working full time, and I never let more than a few months pass between visits. I just spent two wonderful months there this summer, although I do often take trips to other areas of Italy while I'm there. Even my children feel quite at home, although the ties are loosening for them, unfortunately. Hopefully, I may someday retire or partly retire somewhere near by although to be honest I would prefer a larger, more cosmopolitan place like Genova. It will depend on the situation when that day comes...

    My father's entire family comes from the Appennino Tosco-Emiliano (and a few from the Appennino Reggiano). No one seems to have moved in or out from the early 1500's until the twentieth century at least, when, for example, my father's family moved to Sarzana, where he was born. In some ways, although he of course kept up his relationships with his people from the mountains, my father identified as much, if not more, with Liguria and Toscana as he did with Parma.

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    Yes i know perfectly all Italy and the irredentist lands

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Yes i know perfectly all Italy and the irredentist lands
    Well, knowing of it is one thing...I was sort of asking whether you'd ever been there. It's not exactly a tourist hot spot!

    Ah, Italia irredenta...now you're bringing up memories of my father.

    The only part I want back is Nizza and the surrounding territory, not that they'd be willing to join us, I'm afraid. As far as I'm concerned, Austria can have most of the Trentino back, but I suppose that will never happen, as they have the best of both worlds.

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    Eheh Istria, Malta, Corsica, Ticino other irredentist lands :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Liguria is the swarthiest part of North Italy AFAIK.
    Romagna and some areas of Emilian Po Valley are the swarthiest part of North Italy according to Biasutti map, swarthier than Liguria, Tuscany, Northern Umbria and Northern Marche.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Romagna and some areas of Emilian Po Valley are the swarthiest part of North Italy according to Biasutti map, swarthier than Liguria, Tuscany, Northern Umbria and Northern Marche.
    You're going by the Livi map, I take it?


    I've wondered about possible explanations for that, but never came to any actual conclusions.

    For example, is it possible that it has something to do with the Byzantines? For Romagna I suppose it's a possibility, given this....


    However, everything we're learning seems to indicate that small amounts of admixture in historic times probably have very little impact on the overall genetic pattern.

    Even if this were true, it wouldn't explain the strip in the Valley from Parma to Piacenza, though.

    I've even wondered whether it has something to do with solar radiation levels, given what we know about the correlation of UV rays with skin pigmentation. There seems to be a lighter area which corresponds to mountainous regions, particularly if you look at the Ligurian Alps/northern Apennines, in comparison to the lowland valleys. Cavalli/Sforza always maintained that there was no "autosomal" genetic difference between the people in the plain and the people in the mountains in the case of Emilia. Rather, he felt that the differences were based on founder effect and drift.
    http://www.newquayweather.com/solarp...-Europe-en.png

    Or perhaps slightly different groups had a preference for certain eco-zones. The newly arriving shepherd peoples might have migrated to familiar terrain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're going by the Livi map, I take it?
    Yes.

    The original Biasutti map (Renato Biasutti, Razze e popoli della Terra, II, p. 73, UTET, Torino 1967). Biasutti based his own maps on the previous works of Ridolfo Livi.


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    Some new ones. I hope the site doesn't eat these up over time.





    ]









    ]






    The girl:














    A local politician I swear! :)









    ]






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    I imagine there are many immigrants from Lunigiana in Spezia as the SP province went from 95k people to 200k people in half a century.
    the Livi map is quite crappy. I can't believe Liguria is lighter than Val Seriana near BG.

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    There are a lot of people from the Lunigiana who now live in La Spezia. Lots of people from Toscana further south as well, and from the Ligurian villages further west. My own father's family from the Apennines of Emilia moved there when they returned from America; he was born in Sarzana. Then we got lots of migrants from southern Italy as well, and not only to La Spezia, but to the Lunigiana as well. My cousin married one of them. One family even bought and runs a supposedly "Lunigianese" restaurant in Pontremoli. (None of the "locals" go there.) :)

    Of course, there are now Moroccans too.

    None of that has anything to do with Livi's map, as the statistics were compiled 160 years ago, before any of those dislocations.

    "In 1888 he was entrusted with a vast anthropological investigation to be the carried out on approximately 300,000 military classes of 1859 and 1863. He concluded his work in 'Antropometria Militare',[2] which consisted of two volumes, the first in 1896 and second in 1905."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Livi

    This is the Biasutti map using Livi's much earlier data:


    I don't know how you could get a more accurate survey. How could individual impressions compete with it?

    La Spezia is actually not particularly fair according to that data.

    Anecdotally, there is a cline, imo, in "local" Ligurians, i.e. people whom I know whose families have lived there for hundreds of years. Coastal people tend to be darker, while people in the Ligurian Alps, like people in the Emilian Apennines, tend to be fairer. Cavalli-Sforza said in a speech that he thought the Celt Ligures used them as a refuge. Perhaps. Or, it's just old fashioned selection. A very pale skin, which usually goes with light eyes and hair, is not adaptive in the climate of the Ligurian coast, which as a climate is more like southern Italy. It's just great for those mountains, however; lets you get lots more Vitamin D.

    As for the pictures in this thread, I specifically labeled it "Native Phenotypes". These people are locals, and yet still, yes, many of the fairer ones are from my Lunigiana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There are a lot of people from the Lunigiana who now live in La Spezia. Lots of people from Toscana further south as well, and from the Ligurian villages further west. My own father's family from the Apennines of Emilia moved there when they returned from America; he was born in Sarzana. Then we got lots of migrants from southern Italy as well, and not only to La Spezia, but to the Lunigiana as well. My cousin married one of them. One family even bought and runs a supposedly "Lunigianese" restaurant in Pontremoli. (None of the "locals" go there.) :)

    Of course, there are now Moroccans too.

    None of that has anything to do with Livi's map, as the statistics were compiled 160 years ago, before any of those dislocations.

    "In 1888 he was entrusted with a vast anthropological investigation to be the carried out on approximately 300,000 military classes of 1859 and 1863. He concluded his work in 'Antropometria Militare',[2] which consisted of two volumes, the first in 1896 and second in 1905."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridolfo_Livi

    This is the Biasutti map using Livi's much earlier data:


    I don't know how you could get a more accurate survey. How could individual impressions compete with it?

    La Spezia is actually not particularly fair according to that data.

    Anecdotally, there is a cline, imo, in "local" Ligurians, i.e. people whom I know whose families have lived there for hundreds of years. Coastal people tend to be darker, while people in the Ligurian Alps, like people in the Emilian Apennines, tend to be fairer. Cavalli-Sforza said in a speech that he thought the Celt Ligures used them as a refuge. Perhaps. Or, it's just old fashioned selection. A very pale skin, which usually goes with light eyes and hair, is not adaptive in the climate of the Ligurian coast, which as a climate is more like southern Italy. It's just great for those mountains, however; lets you get lots more Vitamin D.

    As for the pictures in this thread, I specifically labeled it "Native Phenotypes". These people are locals, and yet still, yes, many of the fairer ones are from my Lunigiana.
    If I had to pick a very, very, typical coastal Ligurian/La Spezia face it would be Andrea Calevo, an entrepreneur from an old and wealthy La Spezia family who was kidnapped and held for ransom.



    My mother's father, from La Spezia, was this type.



    With his mother and sister after his release. I'm more the daughter's type (without the very prominent chin), also pretty common both in the Lunigiana and La Spezia.

    Last edited by Angela; 12-06-19 at 03:27.

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    Angela: do you know what kind of metric they used in the Livi's map to measure hair and eyes color? the scale of Broca? the Fischer Saller scale? the Martin Schultz scale?
    I tell you what they used.
    short answer: nothing.
    long answer: nnnnoooooooootttthhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnn nnnnnggggggggggg.

    they did everything by eye. it's not reliable. you can't seriously believe Liguria is fairer than places like Val Seriana or Val Brembana. I've been there. the humidity from the plain condensates creating a micro-climate that's cloudy 300 days a year. the people are fairer than Ligurians. If Ligurians were really fairer then they would be at Austrian-like level. I also have been a substitute teacher in Ferrara and Carpi and they look nothing darker than Tuscany or Umbria.
    If you don't use a specific single metric to measure eyes and hair color than what's the point of comparing different populations? Livi had Lombards at 37% light eyes, Schlagenaufen has Swiss Germans at 25% light eyes in the Anthropometria Helvetica. do I really have to believe it?
    and Biasutti did not use Livi's data for Trentino-Alto Adige because it was not part of Italy back then. and certainly did not use Livi's data for Swiss Italians or Corsicans because they don't live in Italy.
    why are you people so low IQ to not notice these details?

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    Quote Originally Posted by frontiersman View Post
    why are you people so low IQ to not notice these details?

    Caviezel aka fulvioterzapi, or whoever you really are, this is not Apricity and neither ABF. Either you learn to argue politely or action will be taken against you.

    Fighting in such a rude way about the differences of the hair color due to a few percentage points is really ridiculous.

    We can care less about your personal impressions. Also because, everywhere from Rome to the north Italy, there is such a large percentage of non-native people, that personal impressions only are used to legitimize personal agendas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frontiersman View Post
    Angela: do you know what kind of metric they used in the Livi's map to measure hair and eyes color? the scale of Broca? the Fischer Saller scale? the Martin Schultz scale?
    I tell you what they used.
    short answer: nothing.
    long answer: nnnnoooooooootttthhhhiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnn nnnnnggggggggggg.

    they did everything by eye. it's not reliable. you can't seriously believe Liguria is fairer than places like Val Seriana or Val Brembana. I've been there. the humidity from the plain condensates creating a micro-climate that's cloudy 300 days a year. the people are fairer than Ligurians. If Ligurians were really fairer then they would be at Austrian-like level. I also have been a substitute teacher in Ferrara and Carpi and they look nothing darker than Tuscany or Umbria.
    If you don't use a specific single metric to measure eyes and hair color than what's the point of comparing different populations? Livi had Lombards at 37% light eyes, Schlagenaufen has Swiss Germans at 25% light eyes in the Anthropometria Helvetica. do I really have to believe it?
    and Biasutti did not use Livi's data for Trentino-Alto Adige because it was not part of Italy back then. and certainly did not use Livi's data for Swiss Italians or Corsicans because they don't live in Italy.
    why are you people so low IQ to not notice these details?
    Let me be even more blunt than Pax. If you think I give nordicists from other countries short shrift on this forum, you think I'm going to allow it from some Lega Nord extremist from Lombardia? Go back to theapricity or forum biodiversity or Stormfront if they'll have you, which I doubt.

    I don't give a darn about your subjective viewpoints of people's hair color in parts of Italy in 2019. I give credence to a study of 300,000 young men 160 years ago before all the internal migration.

    I'm not tracking this because I give a damn who is blonde or who isn't. Unlike Nordicist idiots I put no "value" on it. It's just useful as another tool to use, albeit a flawed for, for the study of population genetics.

    As for the Alto Adige, except for the Italians who moved there after it was annexed, the people there aren't Italian, were never Italian, and I wish they'd take themselves back over the border. The people of the Ticino all virtually Lombards. If they don't want to be Italians and want to stay in Switzerland, screw them. Why should we include them in our statistics? Let the Swiss do their own statistics. Clear enough?

    Sorry if you're having trouble on Stormfront, but you should pick your associates better.

    Now, you either cut out this crap, and post on subjects of scientific value civilly, or you're going to find it very tough going here. Not only will you get infractions for insulting other members as you just did, but also for creating disruption or discord. You will find really stupid, non-scientific posts deleted so that the reputation of this site doesn't suffer.

    Got it?

    You want to post here? Great, but STICK TO THE RULES.

    Now, it's Father's Day. Don't freaking bother me again with this nonsense.

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