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Thread: A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origi

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    it's true these personal names say nothing to us about earlier times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I'm curious about the surname thing, because in English speaking countries it's very common for people from various ethnic groups to change their name in order to seem more part of the mainstream. Does that not happen in Italy?
    http://italian.about.com/od/italianc...last-names.htm

    name changes only happened from what I know , due to law if you where under the venetian republic. The venetians had the same rules as Germany and England in regards to estates, ie the first boy inherited all holdings and other sons get nothing. So , under the republic, the second, third, fourth etc sons would add additions to their surnames, like, otto, ato, igo, lin, er, is, acco and a few others.
    If the first son did not produce an heir at his death, the republic would take all the holdings into the state and provide lodgings and finance to the females of the family for life.
    If the family was of the nobility side...........the same rules apply except second, third, fourth etc sons would be given well paid government jobs either in Italy or the colonies.

    In regards to female and their surnames, they where always forbidden to take the husband surname in marriage ( this is again stated in Italian law of 1975). I know in the north-east this has always applied as I have searched many many BDM's registrars ...............essentially, very easy for me to track my maternal line
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Wait a minute. Did I miss the point? Are you talking about, say, southern Italian immigrants changing their names when they move north? I'm not aware of any wide spread phenomenon like that. Most southern Italians with whom I'm acquainted, whether in Italy or here, are insanely proud of their heritage, more so than some northern Italians I know, and wouldn't dream of it.

    It doesn't happen all that often when Italians move abroad either, even if it's to Anglo countries. In the few cases where I personally know that it has happened, it was an error by Ellis Island officials. So, a family named Chini became Kinney. They didn't change it to blend in...they're the type of family that tells you they're Italian in the first five minutes :), it's just that it was almost impossible to change mistakes like that in the early years.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, we don't, but they're virtually unchanged since surnames were first recorded after the Council of Trent.

    Ed. Well, even that's not exactly correct, at least if you're talking about given names. From my own family...Aurelia, Ottaviano, Ameglia, Agostina, Claudio(a), Adriano(a)...We don't have a Cesare, but there are tons in Italy, and Tiberios, and on and on...

    In my husband's family, there's a Constantino, a Florio (Florian), Flavio, Fabbio...

    Enough?
    I thought that we were talking about surnames? As per Aberdeen post starting this discussion.
    First names are much more traditional and longer lasting.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Since the patronymic fixation of family surnames in Europe (XV° century for the most, except Sandinavia, Jews and Welsh people, I think), I think the changing of name was very seldom -
    it's in the USA I think that the phenomenon took a slightly greater place- in Europe, and in USA too, we see rather adaptation of foreign names than a complete change and a linguist (anthroponymist/onomastician) can tell the origin of such partially "adapted" names - I saw more many a germanic names among slavic or hungarian countries, and the contrary too (especially in Austria), sometimes in France - very often the dapatation was more in spelling than in pronounciation (some difficult sounds apart) -
    so, yes, names changings, but very seldom - cannot bias statistics too much -
    Jewish surnames in Poland are either of German or Polish origin. Rosentzveig or Kaczmarski for example. In Poland most last names sound very recent, with nothing to do with Slavic name 1,000 years ago.
    First names, given names, can be much more persistent, much more traditional either among Jews, Poles or Italians, as Angela mentioned.

    I think Swedes (maybe Norwegians) are unusual case. They had so few last names that recently government ask people to get creative and select new last names to increase variety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I thought that we were talking about surnames? As per Aberdeen post starting this discussion.
    First names are much more traditional and longer lasting.
    I was teasing a bit, LeBrok, but yes, it's true, given names are much more traditional. I have a Venetian cousin in law whose family has lived in the city since the 1400s and they have a tradition of naming their sons Greek names as the family used to trade with, and owned lands in Greece. So, the son of the family is named Archimedi, thankfully shortened to Medi.

    I think the first modern Italian surnames came into use in Venice around the year 1000 AD. By about 1400 the use of surnames was pretty widespread, and then in 1564 the Council of Trent mandated that all children had to be registered by given name and surname.

    That's why it's relatively easy to do a long family tree in Italy so long as you're willing to spend days looking through dusty parish records. It helps that women keep their maiden names through life as well. The only problem is that naming traditions where it was customary to name a child after a grandfather or grandmother meant that lots of cousins had the same name. Also, women were often automatically given Maria as a first name, so you have to go by the second name.

    Still, it's certainly doable. Most people aren't interested, however. They know their ancestral villages, and that's enough for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    I think the first modern Italian surnames came into use in Venice around the year 1000 AD. By about 1400 the use of surnames was pretty widespread, and then in 1564 the Council of Trent mandated that all children had to be registered by given name and surname.

    That's why it's relatively easy to do a long family tree in Italy so long as you're willing to spend days looking through dusty parish records.
    That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Jewish surnames in Poland are either of German or Polish origin. Rosentzveig or Kaczmarski for example. In Poland most last names sound very recent, with nothing to do with Slavic name 1,000 years ago.
    First names, given names, can be much more persistent, much more traditional either among Jews, Poles or Italians, as Angela mentioned.

    I think Swedes (maybe Norwegians) are unusual case. They had so few last names that recently government ask people to get creative and select new last names to increase variety.
    It depends, for example the surnames I know were involved in my family are:
    Weinberg
    Brunengraber
    Mandelberg
    Elsenberg
    Czerniak
    Zolka
    Klinghoffer

    German/Polish surnames probably adopted by my ancestors in the 18th century. As for the first names, while it's true that at first you see mixed German/Polish and Jewish names like Woolf, Sury (Sarah), Emma, David etc, in more recent generations (since we're very Secular), the names had little to no relation to Judaism, names like Laurence, Diana, Nicola, Philippa, Peter etc, also going even further my great grandpa completely changed his surname when he got to England. Still 23andme says 95.1% AJ but you get the point. I suppose that if you look at religious Jews you'll still see Jewish first names and sometimes no surnames, just Moses son of Jacob or w/e.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.
    Very true, I can only go back to the early 19th century, my ancestors came from Poznan, Krakow and Boryslaw. Paternally Germany and Poland but I know nothing of specific regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.
    Some areas, like La Spezia, were totally flattened during WWII, so the churches and the records are gone. However, the Bishop's archives still exist. The records also still exist for the surrounding villages.

    Anyway, to be able to trace at least some family lines back to the mid 1500s is not all that unusual.

    As for the number of surnames, I think it might be like STRS or SNPS, the longer you've had them, the more you have...the latest estimate was 350,000.

    http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/C.../cognomi.shtml

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    Some parts of Scotland have a naming tradition as well, although I don't think it's used as much today. But if you look at old church or municipal records going back two or three centuries, in some families all the men are named William, Robert or James and all the women are named Heather or Mary. But surnames were often changed because members of a clan or sept would be proscribed for some reason, especially during and after the Jacobite rebellions. It makes tracing ancestry very difficult, especially since you can usually only go back 300 or 400 years at most, since the majority of churches were made of wood, and in northeastern Scotland there was a big switch from Catholic to Presbyterian in some areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Jewish surnames in Poland are either of German or Polish origin. Rosentzveig or Kaczmarski for example. In Poland most last names sound very recent, with nothing to do with Slavic name 1,000 years ago.
    First names, given names, can be much more persistent, much more traditional either among Jews, Poles or Italians, as Angela mentioned.

    I think Swedes (maybe Norwegians) are unusual case. They had so few last names that recently government ask people to get creative and select new last names to increase variety.
    I think just the opposite: First name are less stabile (modes) contrary to surnames (family names) fixed for a long time among the most of European cuntries (the first ones: Ireland) -
    for Jews I agree: they took names when they were obliged to leave their old system, common among all countries at some stage of history: first name of the father + a suffix indicating filiation (genitive: -sen, -son, -sohn, -sson, mac-, (m)ab- (Welsh? breton), fitz-, ben-, ibn- (Jews, Arabs), -ian (?Armenians)
    in France they choose a discrete name, except some Levy and Cohen - (Livi in Italy, Lewin elsewhere) in Germany, the Cohen name became "hidden" behind some Kohn, Kuhn, Kaan, Koen forms but more often they took german placenames of localization or translated hebraic names into german pseudo palcenames: very often they countain the elements:
    tal, rosen, gold, berg, stein, blum, baum (boim), silber... in combinations - in Poland I don't know, surely they took also local placenames or pseudo-
    placenames - but Jews were great travellers and Germany wurely was a big place for them at some time because they created the yiddish language on a south-german basis and everywhere in Europe or almost they spoke this yiddish - and as you say, the most of jews in Central and East Europe bear "german" surnames
    in North Africa it seems they took arabic surnames, sometimes very close to their own names -
    $: some Cohen, Coen 's in Ireland have a celtic root, not jewish!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I think just the opposite: First name are less stabile (modes) contrary to surnames (family names)
    I meant stable as long existence and history, longer than surnames. I didn't mean stable as stuck to one family, lineage.


    in France they choose a discrete name, except some Levy and Cohen - (Livi in Italy, Lewin elsewhere) in Germany, the Cohen name became "hidden" behind some Kohn, Kuhn, Kaan, Koen forms but more often they took german placenames of localization or translated hebraic names into german pseudo palcenames: very often they countain the elements:
    tal, rosen, gold, berg, stein, blum, baum (boim), silber... in combinations - in Poland I don't know,
    In Poland variety of last names is huge, as big as it gets, I guess. If you know two people of the same last name, they must be from the same family. This was also common for Jewish names. I think, many modern Jewish names in Poland were created just recently with assimilation to mainstream population, going secular, and to avoid anti semitism, to be treated as ordinary citizens, and not just Jews, the outsiders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's amazing. In Poland after destruction of two World Wars there is not much old archive left. People are happy if they can go back 5-6 generations in family history.
    In italy , prior to 1800, the church and the heraldry scribes held all the records of BDM. Once napoleaon entered Italy then , the rules where that the records are held in civic places and the church has there own records. 2 places for records to be held.
    Why....because in Italy, one had to produce a letter of proof of his ancestors and her ancestors, then place on the outside of the civic offices an intent to marry. This notice had to stay in display for 21 days , which is the only time someone can contest the wedding. The service would be firstly held in the civic offices , then the couple would go to the church for another service ........this is the reason, Italy has 2 places that marriages are recorded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just gave this paper a quick run through. I may change my mind after a more thorough analysis, but I think they may have gotten it wrong. Again...even with whole genomes. It's not to say that the conclusion is necessarily incorrect. It's just to say that their analysis doesn't prove it.

    You would think that by now some of these academics would have read and absorbed Lazaridis et al, and realized that you can't use modern populations to analyze ancient gene flow. Nor can use use IBS segments. IMO, you need ancient DNA, and absent that, some really sophisticated IBD analysis.

    Here's the link to the paper.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0105920
    I agree with this: "When all the genetic evidence obtained so far are taken together, it seems clear that the Etruscans cannot be regarded as ancestral of all modern-day Tuscans".

    I will read carefully the research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No, we don't, but they're virtually unchanged since surnames were first recorded after the Council of Trent.
    Not always true.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    LOL???

    WTF is this crap?

    I am not surprised that the authors are Iberian.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Few things wrong with this study:

    1. Highly SSA admixed Yemenis are used as reference population for the Middle Eastern admixture in the ADMIXTURE analysis.
    2. ANE and WHG admixture are both considered as European, hence Northern Middle Easterners scoring high European admixture.

    3. Estimates of the age of admixture in TSI with Caucasus/Middle Eastern people by using the ALDER software???

    What is the purpose of using an European admixed population to get an estimate for age of the Middle Eastern admixture in Tuscans? Obviously this is going to completely skew the results.

    It's like using Brazilian mulattos to estimate the age of African admixture among the Portuguese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    The paper predicts about 25% ME admixture among Tuscans which isn't really any different from results 3 years ago when Dienekes first opened up the Dodecad project using Admixture. (Just add West Asian with SW Asian)

    I'm anticipating that the "first farmers" brought some ME admixture to Europe, but then subsequent waves of eastern people brought more ME admixture. YDNA J2 comes to mind as the strongest candidate for the later waves and the real differentiation between north and southern Europe.
    Tuscans carry a normal level of SWA for Southern Europeans. They actually have less of it than most Neolitich farmers, including the ones in Scandinavia.

    The West Asian component is not really Middle Eastern, as it is very ANE/North Asian like influenced. The West Asian and the North European components are closer to each other, than either of them is to both the Med and the SWA components.

    The oldest J2a in Europe has been found in Bronze Age Hungary and there is no reason to believe that J2 is not much older than that in Southern Europe.

    The whole paper is obviously wrong. Using populations with so much recent European ancestry like the Turks and the Caucasians to estimate the age of West Asian admixture in Tuscany makes no sense at all.

    I am waiting for a much serious paper without Iberian authors.
    Last edited by joeyc; 28-11-14 at 11:37.

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    Guido Barbujani "Why modern-day Tuscans don't descend from the Etruscans"

    Video (in Italian)

    http://www.dialoghisulluomo.it/multi...ani%20&watch=1

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Guido Barbujani "Why modern-day Tuscans don't descend from the Etruscans"

    Video (in Italian)

    http://www.dialoghisulluomo.it/multi...ani%20&watch=1
    Thanks for the link, Pax Augusta. I posted the video myself years ago on 23andme in response to a discussion with Gioiello, but I could never find it again. It's very informative. (He gives a nice introduction to dna testing and terms and the problems with getting ancient samples and then dealing with contamination issues as well.)

    I think that the kinds of distinctions he's drawing are sort of lost on a lot of hobbyists. As he points out, what the ancient samples he tested tell us, looked at one way, is that of the 27 sequences, 5 were indeed found in Anatolia, but 7 were found in Germany, and only 2 may be found in Tuscany. So just looking at the results in this way would see a higher correspondence to Germany than to Toscana. (In other interviews and publications he points out that at the level of resolution that they did, and the age of the mtDna lineages, it's impossible to tell if they arrived in Europe in the late Bronze/Iron Age or in the Neolithic thousands of years earlier. )

    They then seem to have looked at upstream lineages and compared modern lineages to them through a Bayesian analysis. They found that of the three ancient Etruscan cities of the League where they thought there was the most likelihood of finding Etruscan dna, i.e. Cosentino, Murlo, and Volterra, only in Cosentino was there are indication of population continuity. So, as he says, although the Tuscans may be the closest population to the ancient Etruscans, most of them are not descended from the Etruscans by any measure that they tested, which is mtDna.

    I think this may be like the situation discovered in the recent paper about the Lombards in Piemonte . In a few small communities where there was a founder effect, a small group who went to the area and whose descendents basically never moved anywhere else and intermarried only among themselves, you can find some traces of these ancient peoples, but other than that, there is no trace of them.

    Given that there is absolutely no record archaeologically of a mass migration into Tuscany around 800 BC, I have my doubts that the common people were anything but Villanovans. Perhaps the upper classes were mixed with newer arriving migrants. Certainly, the civilization shows rapid signs of sophistication in every area, perhaps most particularly in metallurgy. Those people and any unique genetic signature they carried were rapidly absorbed by the Romans, however, along with their culture and accomplishments. The language disappeared.

    Of course, this may all change with more fine scale resolution and dating of mtDna lineages, or with ydna analysis, or even better, with a good enough sample for a sophisticated analysis of their autosomes. So far, thought, this is what we have.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link, Pax Augusta. I posted the video myself years ago on 23andme in response to a discussion with Gioiello, but I could never find it again. It's very informative. (He gives a nice introduction to dna testing and terms and the problems with getting ancient samples and then dealing with contamination issues as well.)

    I think that the kinds of distinctions he's drawing are sort of lost on a lot of hobbyists. As he points out, what the ancient samples he tested tell us, looked at one way, is that of the 27 sequences, 5 were indeed found in Anatolia, but 7 were found in Germany, and only 2 may be found in Tuscany. So just looking at the results in this way would see a higher correspondence to Germany than to Toscana. (In other interviews and publications he points out that at the level of resolution that they did, and the age of the mtDna lineages, it's impossible to tell if they arrived in Europe in the late Bronze/Iron Age or in the Neolithic thousands of years earlier. )

    They then seem to have looked at upstream lineages and compared modern lineages to them through a Bayesian analysis. They found that of the three ancient Etruscan cities of the League where they thought there was the most likelihood of finding Etruscan dna, i.e. Cosentino, Murlo, and Volterra, only in Cosentino was there are indication of population continuity. So, as he says, although the Tuscans may be the closest population to the ancient Etruscans, most of them are not descended from the Etruscans by any measure that they tested, which is mtDna.

    I think this may be like the situation discovered in the recent paper about the Lombards in Piemonte . In a few small communities where there was a founder effect, a small group who went to the area and whose descendents basically never moved anywhere else and intermarried only among themselves, you can find some traces of these ancient peoples, but other than that, there is no trace of them.

    Given that there is absolutely no record archaeologically of a mass migration into Tuscany around 800 BC, I have my doubts that the common people were anything but Villanovans. Perhaps the upper classes were mixed with newer arriving migrants. Certainly, the civilization shows rapid signs of sophistication in every area, perhaps most particularly in metallurgy. Those people and any unique genetic signature they carried were rapidly absorbed by the Romans, however, along with their culture and accomplishments. The language disappeared.

    Of course, this may all change with more fine scale resolution and dating of mtDna lineages, or with ydna analysis, or even better, with a good enough sample for a sophisticated analysis of their autosomes. So far, thought, this is what we have.
    Thanks for this, Angela.


    I add something from an old interview to Barbujani: http://www.antrocom.it/textnews-view...le-id-760.html

    A.: - gli etruschi erano un gruppo elitario, che è l'ipotesi che caldeggiate nell'articolo. Se è vero, come spiegare le mappe genetiche di cui sopra e il fatto che la dodecapoli fosse una realtà fondamentalmente pacifica (romani e celti permettendo)? Un gruppo elitario non presuppone una dominanza di tipo militare rispetto al resto della popolazione? Da questo punto di vista, si può fare un parallelo tra l'India antica delle invasioni "ariane" e l'Etruria (con le dovute distanze)?

    G.B.: Belle domande, non so le risposte. So però che molte delle nostre idee su come vivevano le popolazioni del passato sono ricavate da interpretazioni, a volte molto acute, spesso geniali, di fenomeni le cui conseguenze biologiche però fino a poco fa non potevano essere studiate. Adesso che questa possibilità esiste, anche se è limitata, mi sembra serio basarci sui dati reali più che sulle illazioni. Detto questo, non conosco abbastanza la storia dell'India, ma so qualcosa dei turchi. L'idea che mi sono fatto (ma questa è una speculazione) è che, un po' come i selgiuchidi e gli ottomani, che hanno imposto la loro lingua mongola ma rappresentavano una frazione piccola della popolazione dell'Anatolia, i gruppi di élite etruschi possono (possono) aver introdotto la loro lingua non-indo-europea in una popolazione che non era tutta geneticamente come loro. Se (se!) così fosse, e tenendo conto che abbiamo studiato soprattutto individui provenienti da sepolture ricche, il nostro lavoro dimostrerebbe solo che si è estinta questa élite. E dunque, passando alla prossima domanda...

    A.: Se gli etruschi erano un gruppo elitario, quale era la popolazione autoctona e quale la popolazione immigrata, sempre ammesso che si possa parlare di migrazione? Etruschi o "prototoscani"?

    G.B.:
    Forse (forse!) i prototoscani potrebbero essere le classi basse e gli Etruschi quella alta. Oppure (sempre forse) non c'erano differenze al loro interno, ma gli eventi di migrazione successiva potrebbero aver cambiato la popolazione toscana molto più di quanto verrebbe da pensare. Magari non è vero che i nostri antenati sono sempre quelli che stavano qui duemila o quattromila anni fa. Magari, anche senza immaginarsi migrazioni di massa, la nostra mobilità, poco alla volta, ha fatto sì che i nostri geni andassero in giro molto più di quanto pensiamo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Given that there is absolutely no record archaeologically of a mass migration into Tuscany around 800 BC, I have my doubts that the common people were anything but Villanovans. Perhaps the upper classes were mixed with newer arriving migrants. Certainly, the civilization shows rapid signs of sophistication in every area, perhaps most particularly in metallurgy. Those people and any unique genetic signature they carried were rapidly absorbed by the Romans, however, along with their culture and accomplishments. The language disappeared.
    The story of Etruscans in Italy did not start at 800 BC but in 1200 BC, the city of Hatria (Hatti+ru) modern Adria


    Hatria has also Mycenean elements, which means that Hatrians knew and met before with IE,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Thanks for this, Angela.


    I add something from an old interview to Barbujani: http://www.antrocom.it/textnews-view...le-id-760.html

    A.: - gli etruschi erano un gruppo elitario, che è l'ipotesi che caldeggiate nell'articolo. Se è vero, come spiegare le mappe genetiche di cui sopra e il fatto che la dodecapoli fosse una realtà fondamentalmente pacifica (romani e celti permettendo)? Un gruppo elitario non presuppone una dominanza di tipo militare rispetto al resto della popolazione? Da questo punto di vista, si può fare un parallelo tra l'India antica delle invasioni "ariane" e l'Etruria (con le dovute distanze)?

    G.B.: Belle domande, non so le risposte. So però che molte delle nostre idee su come vivevano le popolazioni del passato sono ricavate da interpretazioni, a volte molto acute, spesso geniali, di fenomeni le cui conseguenze biologiche però fino a poco fa non potevano essere studiate. Adesso che questa possibilità esiste, anche se è limitata, mi sembra serio basarci sui dati reali più che sulle illazioni. Detto questo, non conosco abbastanza la storia dell'India, ma so qualcosa dei turchi. L'idea che mi sono fatto (ma questa è una speculazione) è che, un po' come i selgiuchidi e gli ottomani, che hanno imposto la loro lingua mongola ma rappresentavano una frazione piccola della popolazione dell'Anatolia, i gruppi di élite etruschi possono (possono) aver introdotto la loro lingua non-indo-europea in una popolazione che non era tutta geneticamente come loro. Se (se!) così fosse, e tenendo conto che abbiamo studiato soprattutto individui provenienti da sepolture ricche, il nostro lavoro dimostrerebbe solo che si è estinta questa élite. E dunque, passando alla prossima domanda...

    A.: Se gli etruschi erano un gruppo elitario, quale era la popolazione autoctona e quale la popolazione immigrata, sempre ammesso che si possa parlare di migrazione? Etruschi o "prototoscani"?

    G.B.:
    Forse (forse!) i prototoscani potrebbero essere le classi basse e gli Etruschi quella alta. Oppure (sempre forse) non c'erano differenze al loro interno, ma gli eventi di migrazione successiva potrebbero aver cambiato la popolazione toscana molto più di quanto verrebbe da pensare. Magari non è vero che i nostri antenati sono sempre quelli che stavano qui duemila o quattromila anni fa. Magari, anche senza immaginarsi migrazioni di massa, la nostra mobilità, poco alla volta, ha fatto sì che i nostri geni andassero in giro molto più di quanto pensiamo.
    I don't think anything has substantially changed since he made those comments.

    Yes, as he says, these are all speculations, but it is certainly possible that the "Etruschi", like the Seljuks and the Ottomans, were an elite who imposed their language and their advanced culture upon the mixed Neolithic/Urnfield (and/or other "Indo-European") base. It's also possible, as he points out, that they were all one people, although they would still have had to have been a mixed group of the prior inhabitants and any newcomers. I don't know if we'll ever be able to sort it out completely satisfactorily because as Barbujani says, any samples we have will be from elite burials, not from the majority of the population.

    The other major complication is that the Villanovans cremated their dead, so no comparisions can be made with the people of the immediately preceding culture.

    Regardless it will still be very interesting to discover if this very sophisticated civilization developed naturally from a group of mixed Middle Neolithic?/Bronze-Iron Age"Indo-European" stock who through trade with the east quickly incorporated advanced technology, or if the advances came from a group from the more developed areas of the Aegean and/or Anatolia.

    I've said before that I doubt it was a mass migration. There is no indication of that in the archaeological record, and, in addition, from everything that I can see Tuscans are eastern shifted or Indo-European admixed Sardinians. No one has yet succeeded in showing me that a further massive gene flow from Anatolia in the first millennium BC is necessary to explain their genetic make up. They also fit seamlessly into the Italian cline.

    I'm not saying that it isn't possible that there were further gene flows from the southeast in the Bronze Age. We know that there was gene flow from Greece into southern Italy during the first millennium BC and that could have diffused northward. Maybe there was some specific gene flow into Toscana from the Aegean/Anatolia starting in 1200 BC as well. I don't know. I'm just saying that in order to get a handle on Tuscan genetics and Italian genetics in general we need some Middle Neolithic genomes from this area, some incoming "Indo-European" genomes, some samples from the influence from Crete, some "Etruscan" samples, and hey, let's throw in some Greek immigrants from the first settlements of Magna Graecia as well.

    Then we can come to some reasonable conclusions.

    One thing that is clear to me is that the paper that is the subject of this thread has proved nothing, because there is no time stamp on any of these similarities, which you would think the authors should have known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    The story of Etruscans in Italy did not start at 800 BC but in 1200 BC, the city of Hatria (Hatti+ru) modern Adria


    Hatria has also Mycenean elements, which means that Hatrians knew and met before with IE,
    Adria , which was on the coast at the time ( it is now 20km inland ) was firstly a mycenean outpost and conquered by the etruscans, but not as early as 1200BC. the area was north Picene. The North Picene is linked also with liburnian .
    The myceneans are also said to be in istria at the time

    http://www.academia.edu/1491061/Terramare_and_glass_Mycenaean_influence_in_Norther n_Italy_during_the_Late_Bronze_Age

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id...istria&f=false



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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't think anything has substantially changed since he made those comments.

    Yes, as he says, these are all speculations, but it is certainly possible that the "Etruschi", like the Seljuks and the Ottomans, were an elite who imposed their language and their advanced culture upon the mixed Neolithic/Urnfield (and/or other "Indo-European") base. It's also possible, as he points out, that they were all one people, although they would still have had to have been a mixed group of the prior inhabitants and any newcomers. I don't know if we'll ever be able to sort it out completely satisfactorily because as Barbujani says, any samples we have will be from elite burials, not from the majority of the population.

    The other major complication is that the Villanovans cremated their dead, so no comparisions can be made with the people of the immediately preceding culture.

    Regardless it will still be very interesting to discover if this very sophisticated civilization developed naturally from a group of mixed Middle Neolithic?/Bronze-Iron Age"Indo-European" stock who through trade with the east quickly incorporated advanced technology, or if the advances came from a group from the more developed areas of the Aegean and/or Anatolia.

    I've said before that I doubt it was a mass migration. There is no indication of that in the archaeological record, and, in addition, from everything that I can see Tuscans are eastern shifted or Indo-European admixed Sardinians. No one has yet succeeded in showing me that a further massive gene flow from Anatolia in the first millennium BC is necessary to explain their genetic make up. They also fit seamlessly into the Italian cline.

    I'm not saying that it isn't possible that there were further gene flows from the southeast in the Bronze Age. We know that there was gene flow from Greece into southern Italy during the first millennium BC and that could have diffused northward. Maybe there was some specific gene flow into Toscana from the Aegean/Anatolia starting in 1200 BC as well. I don't know. I'm just saying that in order to get a handle on Tuscan genetics and Italian genetics in general we need some Middle Neolithic genomes from this area, some incoming "Indo-European" genomes, some samples from the influence from Crete, some "Etruscan" samples, and hey, let's throw in some Greek immigrants from the first settlements of Magna Graecia as well.

    Then we can come to some reasonable conclusions.

    One thing that is clear to me is that the paper that is the subject of this thread has proved nothing, because there is no time stamp on any of these similarities, which you would think the authors should have known.
    I agree with that all, Angela.


    A must-see interview (this time in English, so need a translation) dated 2010 to British archaeologist Phil Perkins about the Etruscan Dna and the modern studies. Perkins has excavated for a long time in Tuscany and northern Lazio.

    Etruscan DNA 1 part


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