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Thread: A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origi

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    Etruscan DNA 2 part


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I like this interview, very balanced, smart, beautifully worded and objective.
    Thanks
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I agree with that all, Angela.


    A must-see interview (this time in English, so need a translation) dated 2010 to British archaeologist Phil Perkins about the Etruscan Dna and the modern studies. Perkins has excavated for a long time in Tuscany and northern Lazio.

    Etruscan DNA 1 part

    Thanks for the link, Pax Augusta. Well, I'd never heard that Etruscan has some similarities to Finnish and Hungarian, which are Uralic languages. That certainly doesn't sound like Etruscan would have been spoken in Anatolia does it? Unless they were some late arriving non-Indo-European speaking people from the northern steppe who just passed through Anatolia. That would certainly over turn things.

    His view of the "Oriental" nature of their culture as probably being "cultural" and acquired through trade and that the same process took place in Greece is an argument I've heard before. It's very difficult to sort all these things out, because there are fashions in science as there are in everything else. First archaeologists were certain that everything was cultural diffusion, and now geneticists are certain that every cultural change is due to mass migration. How about just looking at each civilization on its own and trying to figure it out?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Etruscan DNA 2 part

    Actually, to the best of my recollection the newest papers say that because the samples were tested before tests for subclades were available, there's no way of knowing whether the material arrived in the Neolithic or 800 BC or even later. I'll try to find the citation for that.

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    What You think about this website??

    Maravot's work in deciphering the Etruscan Language. This work was originally published in 1981 as the "Catalog of Etruscan Words," by Mel Copeland. The work now integrates the Tavola Cortonensis and Zagreb Mummy scripts, which are the most recent finds. The work shows Etruscan conjugation and declension patterns. The first page lists the words and is an easy reference as to where they can be found and where their declension and conjugation patterns may be compared and examined. Translation of the various scripts is nearly complete.
    ...Tables are furnished showing the relationship of hundreds of Etruscan cognates to the basic Indo-European language groups.
    http://www.maravot.com/#anchor#5

    A curious turn in our exploration of the Etruscan language has led to the Phrygian language and its very similar grammatical patterns that relate to the Etruscan language. Herodotus and other ancients, particularly Strabo, provided pointers suggesting that the Etruscans, originating in Lydia, and the Phrygians shared a common heritage and land. Strabo and others further point out that the Phrygians are identical to the Mysians and Thracians. He also compares the Thracians to the Celts. The ancient texts that point to the Etruscan-Phrygian-Celtic connection are at the "Etruscan Phrases" Phrygiank.html. Strabo describes these people as being very ancient and attributes many inventions, such as wagons, to them. He, as well as other ancient writers, says that the Phrygians are believed to have come from Thrace. He further points out that the Getae and Thracians share the same tongue. Strabo then points out that the island of Lemnos was first settled by Thracians. Lemnos has strong connections to the Phrygians and interestingly the Lemnos Stelae, Script S, written in Etruscan characters, shows a punctuation (3-dot colon) like the Phrygian script. While the Lemnos Script has been identified as an Etruscan writing, it appears that it is Phrygian, though both the Etruscans and Phrygians appear to share the same language.
    http://www.maravot.com/Etruscan_Phra...chor_1_06_08_1

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    I see a lot off cognates in Etruscan and other IE languages. This is strange because I always thought it was not related to IE in anyway. Also the probable link between Phrygian and Etruscan is interesting

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe an echo of Anatolian roots

    Etruscan huth - Five
    Georgian hut-(i) - Five

    Etruscan papa - Grandfather
    Georgian papa - Grandfather

    Etruscan teta - Grandmother
    Georgian deda - Mother

    Etruscan marish - Bridegroom
    Georgian qmar-(i) - Husband
    Svan mare - Man

    Etrsucan lupu - (has) died
    Georgian -lp- -To rot

    Etruscan tinia - Day
    Georgian -ten - Light

    Etruscan tiur - Month
    Georgian tve<-- ttue - Month

    http://etruskisch.de/pgs/vc.htm

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    Nah I find more probable that Basques came from the Caucasus.

    Shared words between Kartvelian and Basque languages.

    Lo (sleep)– Logini (bed)
    Ur (water)– Ur (old georgian) water
    Ashur (lamb) – Shuri (sheep)
    Gau (night)– Game (night)
    Karoin (ice)– Karuime (ice)
    Ashli (limb) – Ashal (leg)
    Apal (low)– Dabali (low)
    Nigar (weeping)– Ngara (weeping)
    Sagu (mouse)– Tagu (old georgian) mouse
    Pipril (ash) – Perpli (ash)
    Shagar (apple)– Ushguri (apple)
    Mayte (dear)– Malate (dear)
    Eger-ezer (good)– Ezer (good)


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    Back to topic these ridiculous attempts to date admixtures with statistical methods, are completely useless!

    Do not forget that untill 2011, everyone thought that R1b was a Paleolitich European haplogroup!

    Funny that the highest frequencies of J1 and J2 haplogroups in Tuscany are found in non Etruscan areas, like the Appenines, while Italo Celtic y-dna lineages are most common in the Etruscan areas, like the coast.

    I want to see how the prophets of the Anatolian theory can explain this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Nah I find more probable that Basques came from the Caucasus.

    Shared words between Kartvelian and Basque languages.

    Lo (sleep)– Logini (bed)
    Ur (water)– Ur (old georgian) water
    Ashur (lamb) – Shuri (sheep)
    Gau (night)– Game (night)
    Karoin (ice)– Karuime (ice)
    Ashli (limb) – Ashal (leg)
    Apal (low)– Dabali (low)
    Nigar (weeping)– Ngara (weeping)
    Sagu (mouse)– Tagu (old georgian) mouse
    Pipril (ash) – Perpli (ash)
    Shagar (apple)– Ushguri (apple)
    Mayte (dear)– Malate (dear)
    Eger-ezer (good)– Ezer (good)

    Certain linguistic similarities do not necessarily mean genetic relatedness. In case of Etruscan and Georgian/Kartvelian both might have borrowed these words from some other source in Anatolia.

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    giuseppe rossi

    Before the advent of genetics I also thought the Basque has some link to Caucasus but the genetics show that the Basques lack the Western Asian component that is very high in Caucasus.
    Nevertheless the presence of Armenian and Georgian cognates in Basque language is very intriguing.

    The only explanation I have is the time when R1b-M269 was in North of Near East (but it is neolithic ?!)

    Concerning the Etruscan. What You think about the idea that Etruscan is someway related to IE?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Another study that found an admixture from places even farther East at North Iran.
    We analyzed the genetic characteristics of 110 Tuscan mitogenomes in the context of a large dataset of mitogenomes representing the worldwide phylogeny. There is strong evidence suggesting the existence of a Near East component in the Tuscans, thus adding further support to previous findings based on mtDNA control region data and autosomal data. If we consider #60 (T2d2), #29 (J1b1a3a), #24 (T2n1), #95 (J1d6), #92 and #105 (HV9c), #66 (U7a4a1a), #22 (H92) and #63 (H97) as haplotypes recently introduced to the Tuscan area from the Near East, the introgression of Near East haplotypes would account for 8.2% of the total mtDNA Tuscan pool. This signal is significantly lower than the one observed at a genome-wide scale (21%). Moreover, the autosomal data indicate that carriers of Near East mitogenomes do not correspond to migrants arriving recently to Tuscany from the Near East (S1 Text).

    Within the Near East, the main genetic signature comes from Iran, although this view could be distorted by an overrepresentation of this region in the database of mitogenomes from the Near East.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0119242

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I like this interview, very balanced, smart, beautifully worded and objective.
    Thanks
    Of course I completely agree with you. We need more scholar like Perkins. I'm pleased that you like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for the link, Pax Augusta. Well, I'd never heard that Etruscan has some similarities to Finnish and Hungarian, which are Uralic languages. That certainly doesn't sound like Etruscan would have been spoken in Anatolia does it? Unless they were some late arriving non-Indo-European speaking people from the northern steppe who just passed through Anatolia. That would certainly over turn things.
    Angela, as I know, the connection between the Etruscan and the Old Hungarian (and so the Finnish) is mainly due to an Italian linguist, Mario Alinei, who taught at the University of Utrecht and now lives in Tuscany. But Alinei wasn't the first to make this connection. Etruscan and Old Hungarian/Finnish are considered both agglutinative language. Some of the ancient languages of Near Est were agglutinative: Hattic, Sumerian, Hurrian, Urartian... But also the Basque is considered by many linguists an agglutinative language. Agglutination is an ancient typological feature and does not imply a linguistic relation according to many scholars though. I have read Alinei's work some years ago and I found it not very believable on a historical level not to mention that Alinei is commonly criticised for his theories. The very ancient typological feature of Etruscan could be due to an ancient migration from Near East or as well to a very ancient Mediterranean pre-Indo-European substratum (in the ancient Greek is called the pre-Greek substrate).

    Etruscan: An Archaic Form of Hungarian (Il Mulino, Bologna – 2003).

    http://www.continuitas.org/texts/alinei_etruscan.pdf


    https://www.mulino.it/isbn/9788815093820


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    His view of the "Oriental" nature of their culture as probably being "cultural" and acquired through trade and that the same process took place in Greece is an argument I've heard before. It's very difficult to sort all these things out, because there are fashions in science as there are in everything else. First archaeologists were certain that everything was cultural diffusion, and now geneticists are certain that every cultural change is due to mass migration. How about just looking at each civilization on its own and trying to figure it out?
    I really think that geneticists need to start to ask the collaboration of archaeologists, as Perkins said, historians and linguists. In my opinion geneticists have a Ferrari but they still don't know how to drive it.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post

    The only explanation I have is the time when R1b-M269 was in North of Near East (but it is neolithic ?!)

    Concerning the Etruscan. What You think about the idea that Etruscan is someway related to IE?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of course I completely agree with you. We need more scholar like Perkins. I'm pleased that you like it.
    The very ancient typological feature of Etruscan could be due to an ancient migration from Near East or as well to a very ancient Mediterranean pre-Indo-European substratum (in the ancient Greek is called the pre-Greek substrate).
    I also think there is a big chance that Etruscans spoke original Neolithic Farmer's language. The same substratum might be showing through in Basque and Georgian.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I also think there is a big chance that Etruscans spoke original Neolithic Farmer's language. The same substratum might be showing through in Basque and Georgian.
    Yes a remnant of a Neolithic farmers' widely spoken language, with a likely common substratum "in Basque, Sumerian, Urartian, Hurrian, Etruscan and North Caucasian languages". As seen in Ivanov, Gamkrelidze, Starostin, Diakonoff, Orel and others.



    Another interesting contribution.

    DNA and Etruscan Identity by Philip Perkins

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/14%20Perkins-pp.pdf

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of course I completely agree with you. We need more scholar like Perkins. I'm pleased that you like it.

    Angela, as I know, the connection between the Etruscan and the Old Hungarian (and so the Finnish) is mainly due to an Italian linguist, Mario Alinei, who taught at the University of Utrecht and now lives in Tuscany. But Alinei wasn't the first to make this connection. Etruscan and Old Hungarian/Finnish are considered both agglutinative language. Some of the ancient languages of Near Est were agglutinative: Hattic, Sumerian, Hurrian, Urartian... But also the Basque is considered by many linguists an agglutinative language. Agglutination is an ancient typological feature and does not imply a linguistic relation according to many scholars though. I have read Alinei's work some years ago and I found it not very believable on a historical level not to mention that Alinei is commonly criticised for his theories. The very ancient typological feature of Etruscan could be due to an ancient migration from Near East or as well to a very ancient Mediterranean pre-Indo-European substratum (in the ancient Greek is called the pre-Greek substrate).

    Etruscan: An Archaic Form of Hungarian (Il Mulino, Bologna – 2003).

    http://www.continuitas.org/texts/alinei_etruscan.pdf


    https://www.mulino.it/isbn/9788815093820

    I really think that geneticists need to start to ask the collaboration of archaeologists, as Perkins said, historians and linguists. In my opinion geneticists have a Ferrari but they still don't know how to drive it.
    Very informative, Pax Augusta...thanks.

    Of course, it has to be acknowledged that it depends which archaeologist or linguist they choose as their "source".

    In terms of the Etruscans, I think the vast majority of archaeologists see Etruscan culture as growing out of the prior Villanovan culture, with the "Orientalizing" features being absorbed through trade and other cultural exchanges. However, to be fair, archaeologists have been very anti-migration for many groups for many years. Many of them didn't even allow for gene flow into Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic Advance.

    However, J.P. Mallory, an editor of the Encyclopedia of Indo-European culture can hardly be classified as a rabid anti-migrationist, and he concludes that the Etruscans were most likely "native" in the area.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=tz...uscans&f=false

    I don't know if his views have changed since then.

    Ed. to clarify the source of the opinion and correct the link.
    Last edited by Angela; 30-04-15 at 17:43.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Certain linguistic similarities do not necessarily mean genetic relatedness. In case of Etruscan and Georgian/Kartvelian both might have borrowed these words from some other source in Anatolia.
    OK, I agree - that said, same loanwords made from the same third language can prove geographic proximity at some stage of History, so have some worth -

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    The question is were was that geographic proximity :)
    this man thinks Armenians brought their Etruscan parallels from Balkans.
    https://www.academia.edu/11493537/ETRUSCAN_AND_ARMENIAN
    But how then Georgians have their cognates with Etruscan?

    Look at the plural suffix discussed in the other thread. German,Armenian, Hittite and Etruscan had similar plural suffixes! So how that happened? Neolithic? But why so different language families?

    I start to think that the Tree model of languages is not able to explain everything and we need to revisit the Wave model of languages.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    The question is were was that geographic proximity :)
    this man thinks Armenians brought their Etruscan parallels from Balkans.
    https://www.academia.edu/11493537/ETRUSCAN_AND_ARMENIAN
    But how then Georgians have their cognates with Etruscan?

    Look at the plural suffix discussed in the other thread. German,Armenian, Hittite and Etruscan had similar plural suffixes! So how that happened? Neolithic? But why so different language families?

    I start to think that the Tree model of languages is not able to explain everything and we need to revisit the Wave model of languages.
    concerning the armenian connection, I'm not convinced for some comparisons in the short abstract you linked to us, but but I'm ready to accept a possible link between Balkans (proto?)armenian and etruscan - that said, it's not contradicting an other link georgian-etruscan: if a pre-I-Ean language were spoken at some time from Caucasus to Balkans, across Anatolia, I don't see any dramatic obstacle here - it could date from a stage of Neolithic or even later...
    concerning the plurals in different languages, I'm without opinion today - coincidences can occur, we need more than that to make our opinion, I think - and some very archaic lnguistic traits can remain in today separate families: the personal pronouns in some Uralic languages shows ties with I-Ean too, and it didn't signify the current classification is wrong (this type of words are not too often subject to borrowings)-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    Another study that found an admixture from places even farther East at North Iran.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0119242

    It's just another study from the same authors of the paper discussed in this thread. Anyway their newer study shows a lower post-Neolithic gene flow (8%) from their previous paper (21%). They haven't proved that this gene flow is due to Etruscans though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very informative, Pax Augusta...thanks.

    Of course, it has to be acknowledged that it depends which archaeologist or linguist they choose as their "source".

    In terms of the Etruscans, I think the vast majority of archaeologists see Etruscan culture as growing out of the prior Villanovan culture, with the "Orientalizing" features being absorbed through trade and other cultural exchanges. However, to be fair, archaeologists have been very anti-migration for many groups for many years. Many of them didn't even allow for gene flow into Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic Advance.

    However, J.P. Mallory, the head of the Journal of Indo-European Studies for decades, who I don't think can be labeled a die hard anti-migrationist, believes roughly the same thing, and based not only on archaeology, but also on linguistics. His views can be found in these pages of his "In Search of the Indo-Europeans", which is available as a google book .
    https://books.google.com/books?id=tz...=onepage&q=J.P. Mallory on the Etruscans&f=false

    I don't know if his views have changed since then.
    Yes, if someone is genuinely interested about the origins of the Etruscans can not exclude both cases:

    1) Etruscan is the remnant of a non-IE language of central Mediterranean, that later absorbed various elements from east Mediterranean and from the IE Italic languages

    2) Etruscan is a language originally from east Mediterranean carried in central Mediterranean by some newcomers (merchants, warriors, priests...), that later absorbed various elements from the IE Italic languages and the non-IE language of central Mediterranean

    Actually we know very little about a non-IE language spoken in western-central Mediterranean except the Basque language. But some other non-IE languages were for sure spoken in western and central Mediteranean. Furthmore many scholars believe that a pre-IE substrate (also called Mediterranean substrate) exists in the Italic languages, as it exists in the acient Greek.

    If someone is not genuinely interested about the origins of the Etruscans then he will try to force one of the two hypotheses.


    A Mediterranean pre-Indo-European substratum is also found in the ancient Ligurian language according to some scholars.

    The language of the ancient Ligurians is attested by some glosses, place-names and personal names and a few inscriptions on the stelae in Lunigiana. The study of these few data between from 19th c. to Second World War years shown an Indo-European language and close to the Celtic, with some own features which were due to a Mediterranean pre-Indo-European substratum, according some scholars.

    https://www.academia.edu/3674003/Gli...08_pp._143-154



    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    The question is were was that geographic proximity :)
    this man thinks Armenians brought their Etruscan parallels from Balkans.
    https://www.academia.edu/11493537/ETRUSCAN_AND_ARMENIAN
    But how then Georgians have their cognates with Etruscan?

    Look at the plural suffix discussed in the other thread. German,Armenian, Hittite and Etruscan had similar plural suffixes! So how that happened? Neolithic? But why so different language families?

    I start to think that the Tree model of languages is not able to explain everything and we need to revisit the Wave model of languages.
    You need more reliable sources. It's true that since the past Etruscan language has been linked with Armenian (Robert Ellis), but to be honest Etruscan has been linked with many other modern languages (Slovenian, Albanian, Basque, Hungarian...) and ancient languages (Lydian, Luwian, Hurrian, Tartessian... ).


    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    concerning the armenian connection, I'm not convinced for some comparisons in the short abstract you linked to us, but but I'm ready to accept a possible link between Balkans (proto?)armenian and etruscan - that said, it's not contradicting an other link georgian-etruscan: if a pre-I-Ean language were spoken at some time from Caucasus to Balkans, across Anatolia, I don't see any dramatic obstacle here - it could date from a stage of Neolithic or even later...
    concerning the plurals in different languages, I'm without opinion today - coincidences can occur, we need more than that to make our opinion, I think - and some very archaic lnguistic traits can remain in today separate families: the personal pronouns in some Uralic languages shows ties with I-Ean too, and it didn't signify the current classification is wrong (this type of words are not too often subject to borrowings)-
    Agree, these languages could have some very ancient common ancestors, but it doesn't imply that are strictly related.
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 30-04-15 at 19:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Agree, these languages could have some very ancient common ancestors, but it doesn't imply that are strictly related.
    The fact that those few common words between Georgian/Kartvelian and Etruscan are practically identical, probably indicates more to borrowing from a common source rather than to belonging to common language family.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    MOESEN, Pax Augusta

    My interest is not to link Etruscan to Anatolia or whoever else. I want to understand the broader picture with the help of Etruscan. And in this broader context to understand what is interesting to me: the origins of Hurro-Urarteans. Some time ago I also thinked that this old languages are related to Neolithic farmers. But now I am not sure anymore. Now I start to think that the IE was not a simple phenomena. Perhaps there was a first archaic layer of IE that spread around before the main known IE languages appeared. And Etrsucan is part of it.
    There is a genetic discontinuity in Europe at 4500-5000 BP. So basically there are three options here.
    1. Etruscan is a Neolithic language related to G2a and Oetzi before 5000BP
    2. Etruscan is a Bronze Age language (or Late Neolithic) related to R1b (ANE) or J2 (West Asian). Between 5000 and 3200 BP
    3. And the Etruscan is an Iron Age people moved from Anatolia as in Herodotus. After 3200 BP.

    I don't believe in 3-rd option. The article of Perkins convinced me that it is not an option. But I am not sure about the first option also. So I am more inclined to the 2-nd option.
    And such researches are favouring the second option.

    Gianfranco Forni. Etruscan as an Anatolian (non-Hittite) Language
    https://www.academia.edu/3801969/Etr...olian_Language
    Last edited by Arame; 01-05-15 at 09:21.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Etruscan language was a mixture of some native Neolitich language of Italy and some other language from North of the Alps.

    According to Boattini et al 2013, the haplogroup R1b U152 is the only y-dna lineage which correlates with the ancient Etruscans in Italy.

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    Thanks Giuseppe
    That was the thing I was suspecting.
    I think there was a two waves of R1b in Europe. The first one was not IE. like Basque ( or it was a very archaic IE like languages ).
    The second wave was the true IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    The Etruscan language was a mixture of some native Neolitich language of Italy and some other language from North of the Alps.

    According to Boattini et al 2013, the haplogroup R1b U152 is the only y-dna lineage which correlates with the ancient Etruscans in Italy.
    From where that Neolitihic language would originate?

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