A Genome-Wide Study of Modern-Day Tuscans: Revisiting Herodotus's Theory on the Origi

This thread is not about Iberians, but about Etruscans

501579775-etruscan-terracotta-antefix-of-a-head-of-a-gettyimages.jpg


For your information, that's the head of a satyr.

An example of Attic janiform red-figured kantharos with the moulded heads of a satyr, ca. 470 BC.

640px-Janiform_kantharos_BM_E786.jpg


The word "coloratus" can indeed mean "swarthy", among other similar meanings all relating to a darker complexion:

http://www.latin-dictionary.org/coloratus

In any case it's not the main meaning and that site isn't even a scientific dicitionary.

By the way, it's extremely clear that you're not really interested about Etruscans and you're here just for fun. There are many pseudo-anthrophora where you can do that. Please, let's keep Eupedia free from that, Thanks.
 
You can all stop playing games now.

This is a thread to discuss how linguistics, archaeology and genetics may prove or disprove the assertions of ancient authors about the "origins" of the Etruscans. Unless someone has genetic pigmentation data on the people of the area pre and post the Etruscan era and data for the Balkans and Anatolia in the same era, a discussion of the pigmentation of the Etruscans is not particularly useful. This is most particularly not a thread for the discussion of the pigmentation of ancient peoples, or modern ones for that matter. IT IS OFF TOPIC.

This is the second time I have had to remind posters of this fact. Further totally off topic commentary will be removed. Am I sufficiently clear now?
 
In the course of this research, I came upon the following:

The March 2015 edition of the Bryn Mawr Review contains a review of Giovanni Rapelli's work on the Etruscan language in which Bouk van der Meer of Leiden University disagrees with Rapelli's presumption that there was a migration of Etruscan speakers from northwest Anatolia, stating:

"As for Etruscan immigration(s) into Italy based on Herodotus and the non-Greek, Etruscoid Lemnian inscriptions, there is now evidence to the contrary: Etruscan pirates from Southern Etruria may have settled on Lemnos, around 700 BC or earlier and had been responsible for the inscriptions. Moreover, Carlo de Simone has definitely shown that Etruscan is not an Anatolian language.3 The Etruscan numerals, very characteristic elements of any language, do not have any parallels in Anatolian or other languages. "

http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2015/2015-03-02.html

This is the Carlo de Simone work to which he makes reference:
Carlo de Simone, “La nuova iscrizione ‘Tirsenica’ di Lemnos (Efestia, teatro): considerazioni generali”, Rasenna 2011, 1-34.

It may be in the new Italian language volume on the Etruscans or even in more recent papers. I'm going to try to hunt it down.

Oh, so much for the proposition that all Italian scholars come down on the side of an autochthonous origin. People have very quickly forgotten all the early autosomal studies and even some of the early mtDna studies by Italian researchers which came to the opposite conclusion. It would be nice if people on the internet gave Italian scholars (and hobbyists, for that matter), some respect as serious scholars trying to be as objective as possible.

Ed. I'm unsure why Beeks takes this position in 2015, when Carlo De Simone has maintained this for years, and in prior publications Beeks did not seem convinced.

Extremely interesting, so now Bouk van der Meer agrees with Carlo De Simone, Etruscan pirates from Southern Etruria may have settled on Lemnos, around 700 BC. I don't think that Robert Beekes has changed his position, but his last work on Etruscans I have found is dated 2004.

Here you can download Carlo de Simone's work, “La nuova iscrizione ‘Tirsenica’ di Lemnos (Efestia, teatro): considerazioni generali”, Rasenna 2011, 1-34.

http://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=rasenna


Oh, so much for the proposition that all Italian scholars come down on the side of an autochthonous origin. People have very quickly forgotten all the early autosomal studies and even some of the early mtDna studies by Italian researchers which came to the opposite conclusion. It would be nice if people on the internet gave Italian scholars (and hobbyists, for that matter), some respect as serious scholars trying to be as objective as possible.

Clearly not true that all Italian scholars come down on the side of an autochthonous origin, there are many examples of Italian scholars that support a invasionist or migrationist theory.

Italian linguists are generally more open to a invasionist or migrationist theory, Italian archaeologists not, just like in the rest of the world.
 
Pax Augusta: Clearly not true that all Italian scholars come down on the side of an autochthonous origin, there are many examples of Italian scholars that support a invasionist or migrationist theory.

Italian linguists are generally more open to a invasionist or migrationist theory, Italian archaeologists not, just like in the rest of the world.

I think that's accurate.

In terms of van der Beeks, it's difficult to know precisely what he now thinks because he hasn't, as you point out, actually written on the subject since 2004. All we have are snippets from his reviews of other papers. The 2015 review only admits that Etruscan pirates "may" have settled on Lemnos.

In a 2013 review he still says the following:
"In discussing genetic relations between Etruscan, Raetic and Lemnian in Chapter VI Canuti keeps all options open. This is wise, since a recent discovery of a non-Greek Lemnian inscription on a base may show that the third person verbal perfect ending in -ke did exist. (heloke probably means ‘he/they placed/erected/dedicated’; in Etruscan: *heluce). Earlier only the third person verbal perfect ending -ai was known in Lemnian (e.g. aomai; in Etruscan: amuce: ‘x was’). Since the -ai morpheme is absent in Etruscan verb endings, Lemnian is supposed to be more archaic than Etruscan. The new discovery is a tiny indication that Etruscans may have settled on Lemnos in the archaic period, as C. de Simone has argued for decades.3 Still, serious objections are possible: there are no Villanovan or Etruscan artifacts on the island; all Lemnian inscriptions and graffiti (c. 550-510 BC) show the vowel o instead of u (Etruscan has only u); and the Lemnian alphabet is local and ancient authors do not mention migrations of Etruscans from Etruria to Lemnos.4 In addition, Greek has non-Greek so-called substrate words like opuioo (‘I take as wife’) and maybe prytanis which are also present in Etruscan (puia ‘wife’, purth (a kind of magistrate)). These congruences are difficult to explain if Lemnian was a form of exported Etruscan."
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2013/2013-09-09.html

So, I don't know if he has actually changed from this view on the matter. He would have had access to the 2011 Carlo De Simone article by the time he wrote this. It may be that he is now just more open to De Simone's analysis, but still believes the evidence is stronger for his position.

I'm not competent to judge as to the specifically linguistic arguments, although I don't see how there can be enough of a corpus of Lemnian from which to judge whether it is more archaic than Etruscan. Even if it could be shown that it is archaic, I know that there are people who hold that languages remain more archaic at the periphery.

As to Meeks' argument that ancient authors don't mention migrations of Etruscans to Lemnos, I don't know that Etruscan pirates showing up on Lemnos would constitute a "migration", and Etruscan pirates in the Aegean are certainly mentioned. If it was a sort of polyglot Cartagena kind of area, the inscriptions might all be muddled anyway. The only one of van der Meeks' arguments which I think represent a real problem for De Simone's theory is that there aren't Villanovan or Etruscan artifacts on the island. You would think even pirates would bring some of their amphora of Etruscan wine with them.

Thanks for the link to the De Simone article. Have you taken a look at it yet? Does it answer some of these concerns?

If I can get a copy of "The Etruscan World" from a library, perhaps the discussion there by Ambrosiani will be more illuminating, but I'm beginning to doubt whether linguistics can settle this issue.
 
Of course a good percentage of Etruscans was fair pigmented but the majority in the average Mediterranean skin range. Why not? If we even go by the Greek/Anatolian theory, the People of those regions have a significant percentage of fair featured people too.
 
Extremely interesting, so now Bouk van der Meer agrees with Carlo De Simone, Etruscan pirates from Southern Etruria may have settled on Lemnos, around 700 BC. I don't think that Robert Beekes has changed his position, but his last work on Etruscans I have found is dated 2004.

Here you can download Carlo de Simone's work, “La nuova iscrizione ‘Tirsenica’ di Lemnos (Efestia, teatro): considerazioni generali”, Rasenna 2011, 1-34.

http://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1016&context=rasenna




Clearly not true that all Italian scholars come down on the side of an autochthonous origin, there are many examples of Italian scholars that support a invasionist or migrationist theory.

Italian linguists are generally more open to a invasionist or migrationist theory, Italian archaeologists not, just like in the rest of the world.

Be whatever for etruscans ( indienous or migrational ), their language is found to not be the same as Raetic and not the same as lemnian. Carlo found no link between Raetic and etruscan.

Lemnian uses an ancient Eubeon alphabet

Until we find the realtionship of Etruscans with the indigenous ancient Umbrians in the same area of central Italy is when we have a better understanding of where etrucans are from
 
ok I will give non ancients Greeks that admit the same

Strabo book 13 chapter 4
ferri
Bofante

the alternative name of the local of pithikousai Arimaioi


and more
the flying TURAN

7-0701677120.jpg


found in Tinos island, before 700 BC

Alternatine names Pelasgians Thyrrenians Kranaoi

there also more works
like the difference among Avantes and Kadmeians
( Alonso Moreno Cl.,

Maritime Interests: Palatial Lifestyle and the role of the Euboean elites

Teffeteller Annette, Dale Alexander, The Spear- famed Lords of Euboea: Anatolian Traditions in Abantis

Dominguez Adolfo,Euboeans in the Far West?
New data and interpretations

the Thyrrenian/villanovan armory is not IE, although the burial ritual is
it is same with the one Greeks call storks

yet I must wait the autosomals
 
Be whatever for etruscans ( indienous or migrational ), their language is found to not be the same as Raetic and not the same as lemnian. Carlo found no link between Raetic and etruscan.


Sile, I haven't read anything of De Simone about the Raetic language but this is what I've found.

Carlo de Simone, Simona Marchesini (a cura di), La lamina di Demlfeld, Roma-Pisa 2013.

Abstract:

We are pleased to present, with this collection of papers, the study of a written document from the Raetic votive place of Demlfeld near Ampass (Innsbruck, Austria). The inscription was engraved on a small bronze tablet, the discovery of which was preliminarily published in 2006 (TOMEDI ET ALII 2006).
Since every written document needs as much contextual information as possible in order to be interpreted correctly, we invited the scholars who discovered the Demlfeld plate and had kindly given us the opportunity to study it from a linguistic perspective, to supply the contextual background. Three archaeological papers (Tomedi for chapter 1, Hye for chapter 2 and Blecha for chapter 4), and one topographical paper (Töchterle, cap. 2) have thus been added to our commentary. Another paper, dealing with the linguistic origin of the name Ampass (Anreiter, chapter 5) was necessary to complete the toponymic understanding of the place.
The interpretation of the sacred place (seen until now as “Brandopferplatz”) as fanum, with votive offerings belonging to the feminine world is the key to understand the message of the lamina: a dedication from a certain Kleimun to the Avaśueras (a plural entity).
The collection of given information takes the reader to the situation where the plate belongs, to a comprehension of the context where the text was conceived.
An epigraphic (Marchesini, chapter 6) and linguistic analysis (de Simone, chapter 7) are given to the technical description of form and content of the inscription. Moreover a conclusive, historical-linguistic chapter (Marchesini, chapter 8) complete the book, presenting an overview on the research of the Etruscan-Raetic-Tyrrenic connections.
The text analysis and comprehension of the Demlfeld plate has lead us to this subject, i.e. the relationships between these three peoples, since its close linguistic affinity not only with the Etruscan language, but also to the language of the Lemnian inscriptions, is evident.
The recently published epigraphic text from Lemnos, namely the inscribed support of an anathema from Ephestia also confirms, in its text patterns, the deep relationship between Tyrrhenic and Etruscan. The linguistic evidence of genealogical affinity among the three languages offers a new, assured argument to support the difficult reconstruction of the pre- and proto-historical European world.
 
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I haven' read anything of De Simone about the Raetic language but this is what I've found.

Carlo de Simone, Simona Marchesini (a cura di), La lamina di Demlfeld, Roma-Pisa 2013.

Abstract:

We are pleased to present, with this collection of papers, the study of a written document from the Raetic votive place of Demlfeld near Ampass (Innsbruck, Austria). The inscription was engraved on a small bronze tablet, the discovery of which was preliminarily published in 2006 (TOMEDI ET ALII 2006).
Since every written document needs as much contextual information as possible in order to be interpreted correctly, we invited the scholars who discovered the Demlfeld plate and had kindly given us the opportunity to study it from a linguistic perspective, to supply the contextual background. Three archaeological papers (Tomedi for chapter 1, Hye for chapter 2 and Blecha for chapter 4), and one topographical paper (Töchterle, cap. 2) have thus been added to our commentary. Another paper, dealing with the linguistic origin of the name Ampass (Anreiter, chapter 5) was necessary to complete the toponymic understanding of the place.
The interpretation of the sacred place (seen until now as “Brandopferplatz”) as fanum, with votive offerings belonging to the feminine world is the key to understand the message of the lamina: a dedication from a certain Kleimun to the Avaśueras (a plural entity).
The collection of given information takes the reader to the situation where the plate belongs, to a comprehension of the context where the text was conceived.
An epigraphic (Marchesini, chapter 6) and linguistic analysis (de Simone, chapter 7) are given to the technical description of form and content of the inscription. Moreover a conclusive, historical-linguistic chapter (Marchesini, chapter 8) complete the book, presenting an overview on the research of the Etruscan-Raetic-Tyrrenic connections.
The text analysis and comprehension of the Demlfeld plate has lead us to this subject, i.e. the relationships between these three peoples, since its close linguistic affinity not only with the Etruscan language, but also to the language of the Lemnian inscriptions, is evident.
The recently published epigraphic text from Lemnos, namely the inscribed support of an anathema from Ephestia also confirms, in its text patterns, the deep relationship between Tyrrhenic and Etruscan. The linguistic evidence of genealogical affinity among the three languages offers a new, assured argument to support the difficult reconstruction of the pre- and proto-historical European world.

In discussing genetic relations between Etruscan, Raetic and Lemnian in Chapter VI Canuti keeps all options open. This is wise, since a recent discovery of a non-Greek Lemnian inscription on a base may show that the third person verbal perfect ending in -ke did exist. (heloke probably means ‘he/they placed/erected/dedicated’; in Etruscan: *heluce). Earlier only the third person verbal perfect ending -ai was known in Lemnian (e.g. aomai; in Etruscan: amuce: ‘x was’). Since the -ai morpheme is absent in Etruscan verb endings, Lemnian is supposed to be more archaic than Etruscan. The new discovery is a tiny indication that Etruscans may have settled on Lemnos in the archaic period, as C. de Simone has argued for decades.3 Still, serious objections are possible: there are no Villanovan or Etruscan artifacts on the island; all Lemnian inscriptions and graffiti (c. 550-510 BC) show the vowel o instead of u (Etruscan has only u); and the Lemnian alphabet is local and ancient authors do not mention migrations of Etruscans from Etruria to Lemnos.4 In addition, Greek has non-Greek so-called substrate words like opuioo (‘I take as wife’) and maybe prytanis which are also present in Etruscan (puia ‘wife’, purth (a kind of magistrate)). These congruences are difficult to explain if Lemnian was a form of exported Etruscan.
 
In discussing genetic relations between Etruscan, Raetic and Lemnian in Chapter VI Canuti keeps all options open. This is wise, since a recent discovery of a non-Greek Lemnian inscription on a base may show that the third person verbal perfect ending in -ke did exist. (heloke probably means ‘he/they placed/erected/dedicated’; in Etruscan: *heluce). Earlier only the third person verbal perfect ending -ai was known in Lemnian (e.g. aomai; in Etruscan: amuce: ‘x was’). Since the -ai morpheme is absent in Etruscan verb endings, Lemnian is supposed to be more archaic than Etruscan. The new discovery is a tiny indication that Etruscans may have settled on Lemnos in the archaic period, as C. de Simone has argued for decades.3 Still, serious objections are possible: there are no Villanovan or Etruscan artifacts on the island; all Lemnian inscriptions and graffiti (c. 550-510 BC) show the vowel o instead of u (Etruscan has only u); and the Lemnian alphabet is local and ancient authors do not mention migrations of Etruscans from Etruria to Lemnos.4 In addition, Greek has non-Greek so-called substrate words like opuioo (‘I take as wife’) and maybe prytanis which are also present in Etruscan (puia ‘wife’, purth (a kind of magistrate)). These congruences are difficult to explain if Lemnian was a form of exported Etruscan.

This comment is by van der Beeks, not by Carlo de Simone. Furthermore, he doesn't talk about the relationship of Raetic to the other two languages; he talks about the relationship between Etruscan and Lemnian.
 
I think the Etruscans were what many scholars, including Piazza and Cavalli-Sforza, too, stated: the fusion of a greco-anatolian èlite with the native population of ancient Tuscany (a "sardinian-like" post-neolithic population? Italics? Something else?). After the Cuma battle of 474 BC, the Etruscans were estimated to be 300,000/400,000 people, the 12-16% of the whole population of Italy.
I have a question: The study states the admixture event between locals and an anatolian-caucasian population could have occured about 2,600-3,100 years ago. Is there anything out there - a genetic research company, a software or whatever... - allowing us to estimate this kind of temporal range for individuals, too?
 
What are the connections beetween the Sea People and the Etruscan, the indo-european Shar-DANa bronze age warriors arrived in Sardinia and Tuscany, 2300 - 2000 BCE

The Battle of the Delta: Ramses III saves Egypt from the People of the Sea
http://www.ancient-origins.net/history-important-events/battle-delta-ramses-iii-saves-egypt-people-sea-003119
 

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