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Thread: Modern populations and neolithic farmers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, since the academics say over and over again that the ancient samples we have cluster with modern day Sardinians, I suppose they're the best candidate.

    Here's the PCA from Lazaridis et al:
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r...ig1b_small.png

    It's too small an image, but if you enlarge it on your computer you can see what I mean.
    Probably better to take a look at it in the paper.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

    Or we can go with EEF levels:
    Attachment 6673

    Ashkenazi 93%, Sicilians 90%, Sardinians 82%, Spanish 81%, Greeks 79% and down from there.

    The Sicilians score higher because of additional "doses" they got later, probably mostly, although not only during the Metal Ages through mainland Greece and the Islands as vectors. (The Maltese would fit in here as well.)

    The Ashkenazi are a special case. It's complicated. They may be preserving the genetic signal of the ancient Near East better than other populations.
    Interesting. I suppose we wont know for sure until we'll get a Neolithic near eastern and a pre exile Jewish genome.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    That was an excellent summary, Angela, and it helped clarify some things for me. But I have a question. If we eventually have detailed information about the genetic history of North Africa, do you think it could reveal the possibility that "basal European" could be gene flow from North Africa during the Neolithic? Given that Neolithic people were apparently much better sailors than was once assumed, we have two probable access routes, one from what is now Libya and one from what is now Morocco. IMO, if "basal European" is a yet undiscovered "ghost population", the ghosts might be hiding in the one place nobody has yet looked.
    Please don't assume quite yet that it's an excellent summary...the criticisms have yet to appear. I may have gotten some of it wrong, and if I did, I hope it is pointed out...civilly, of course!

    As to your specific question about where Basal Eurasian was "hiding", if I may rephrase it that way, I really don't know. Lazaridis et al seem to be hinting toward Arabia, but the "Red Sea" area might be more precise? That would include the North African side of the Red Sea.

    As for movement during the Neolithic, we don't have the genome of a Near Eastern farmer. However, we have a genome from the LBK farmer, and we are told she was 44% Basal Eurasian, plus or minus 10%. We also know from the yDna and mtDna and archaeology and papers like Paschou et al, that the Neolithic farmers moved from the Near East north and then north west into Europe.

    They also, of course, moved east toward India, as one of the recent archaeology papers with very accurate dating pointed out. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they also spread west along the coast of North Africa and eventually deeper south into Africa itself as pastoralists.

    Now, whether some of them also crossed the straits of Gibraltar into the Iberian peninsula, that argument has been made to explain some of the E-M81 in Spain, as I pointed out on the thread about Iberian genetics. I know that there has been some speculation that perhaps some R1b also made that trip. It's certainly possible, I would think, for something like R1b V88. Perhaps, some intrepid souls braving the currents in the Mediterranean also made the trip to Sicily or Sardinia directly from the coasts of North Africa, and that could explain the presence of that particular clade in those islands.

    However, as to the P-312 in Europe, it seems to me that the current evidence is heavily in favor of that type of R1b being an ANE derived lineage that mixed with farmers and WHG/UHG somewhere to the east and then moved into Europe from there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please don't assume quite yet that it's an excellent summary...the criticisms have yet to appear. I may have gotten some of it wrong, and if I did, I hope it is pointed out...civilly, of course!

    As to your specific question about where Basal Eurasian was "hiding", if I may rephrase it that way, I really don't know. Lazaridis et al seem to be hinting toward Arabia, but the "Red Sea" area might be more precise? That would include the North African side of the Red Sea.

    As for movement during the Neolithic, we don't have the genome of a Near Eastern farmer. However, we have a genome from the LBK farmer, and we are told she was 44% Basal Eurasian, plus or minus 10%. We also know from the yDna and mtDna and archaeology and papers like Paschou et al, that the Neolithic farmers moved from the Near East north and then north west into Europe.

    They also, of course, moved east toward India, as one of the recent archaeology papers with very accurate dating pointed out. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they also spread west along the coast of North Africa and eventually deeper south into Africa itself as pastoralists.

    Now, whether some of them also crossed the straits of Gibraltar into the Iberian peninsula, that argument has been made to explain some of the E-M81 in Spain, as I pointed out on the thread about Iberian genetics. I know that there has been some speculation that perhaps some R1b also made that trip. It's certainly possible, I would think, for something like R1b V88. Perhaps, some intrepid souls braving the currents in the Mediterranean also made the trip to Sicily or Sardinia directly from the coasts of North Africa, and that could explain the presence of that particular clade in those islands.

    However, as to the P-312 in Europe, it seems to me that the current evidence is heavily in favor of that type of R1b being an ANE derived lineage that mixed with farmers and WHG/UHG somewhere to the east and then moved into Europe from there.
    Is LBK Stuttgart?

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    Sorry, double post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Is LBK Stuttgart?
    Stuttgart is a place in Germany where an LBK community was found. The bones of the inhabitants, one in particular, were analyzed. The genome of one of these LBK people from that site has been used as the model for EEF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Stuttgart is a place in Germany where an LBK community was found. The bones of the inhabitants, one in particular, were analyzed. The genome of one of these LBK people from that site has been used as the model for EEF.
    Oh, I see, when people say "Stuttgart" they're talking about LBK who was found in Stuttgart. Thanks. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    ......................

    Now, whether some of them also crossed the straits of Gibraltar into the Iberian peninsula, that argument has been made to explain some of the E-M81 in Spain, as I pointed out on the thread about Iberian genetics. I know that there has been some speculation that perhaps some R1b also made that trip. It's certainly possible, I would think, for something like R1b V88. Perhaps, some intrepid souls braving the currents in the Mediterranean also made the trip to Sicily or Sardinia directly from the coasts of North Africa, and that could explain the presence of that particular clade in those islands.

    However, as to the P-312 in Europe, it seems to me that the current evidence is heavily in favor of that type of R1b being an ANE derived lineage that mixed with farmers and WHG/UHG somewhere to the east and then moved into Europe from there.
    That would certainly seem like a plausible theory, provided Basques and Sardinians have high levels of ANE, but they don't. I'm not personally convinced that the only R1b to migrate to Africa was V88. Perhaps whatever (possibly climate related) event pushed most of the V88 south pushed other R1b subclades into Europe. The problem is that Neolithic North African DNA seems to be pretty much unresearched at present, so there's no way to prove or disprove the idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    That would certainly seem like a plausible theory, provided Basques and Sardinians have high levels of ANE, but they don't. I'm not personally convinced that the only R1b to migrate to Africa was V88. Perhaps whatever (possibly climate related) event pushed most of the V88 south pushed other R1b subclades into Europe. The problem is that Neolithic North African DNA seems to be pretty much unresearched at present, so there's no way to prove or disprove the idea.
    I agree with you that North African yDna has not been sampled extensively, but there are some pretty good studies, and the P-312 does not seem to show any kind of phylogenetic trail from the Middle East.

    I think another thing to consider is that by the time the R1b got to places in the far south or southwest it might have been to a large degree rather de-coupled from the ANE autosomal component. We just need to look at the British for example, who have very high levels of R1b, and comparatively very low levels of ANE.

    Also, the Basque do have some ANE...11% according to the chart in Lazaridis et al. It is the Sardinians who lack it, scoring under 1%, while having some R1b. My personal theory is that R1b in Sardinia is very recent, and mostly from the Italian mainland, where the levels are under 12% for ANE for the Tuscans, for example. I could see that getting diluted through progressive intermarriage with Sardinians in a very isolated setting, while the yDna would survive.

    That's just a theory, though, and I am used, by now, to being surprised by ancient dna findings, so I'm certainly keeping an open mind.

    Ed. Oh, one thing that I definitely think could have happened, is that some R1b L23 people, perhaps in the late Neolithic/Copper Age, as just an example, could have set sail from the eastern Mediterranean and gone across to Iberia, even perhaps stopping for some time on the coast of North Africa.

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    I agree with Angela, many people on antro boards tend to minimize the near eastern identity of the early farmers, probably for some political agenda, I think. Political wannabeism and science always clash, genetics are not exception to this rule Leaving aside "hobby" calculators, according to Genographic and FamilyTreeDNA I'm around 16% "Asia minor". It's a trace of neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent into Europe according to them - and we know they're right - and the very most europeans have (variable) amounts of this component in their DNA. It's part of us since 8,000 years.
    My MTDNA haplogroup is HV, genographic project associates it to neolithic expansion, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with you that North African yDna has not been sampled extensively, but there are some pretty good studies, and the P-312 does not seem to show any kind of phylogenetic trail from the Middle East.

    I think another thing to consider is that by the time the R1b got to places in the far south or southwest it might have been to a large degree rather de-coupled from the ANE autosomal component. We just need to look at the British for example, who have very high levels of R1b, and comparatively very low levels of ANE.

    Also, the Basque do have some ANE...11% according to the chart in Lazaridis et al. It is the Sardinians who lack it, scoring under 1%, while having some R1b. My personal theory is that R1b in Sardinia is very recent, and mostly from the Italian mainland, where the levels are under 12% for ANE for the Tuscans, for example. I could see that getting diluted through progressive intermarriage with Sardinians in a very isolated setting, while the yDna would survive.

    That's just a theory, though, and I am used, by now, to being surprised by ancient dna findings, so I'm certainly keeping an open mind.

    Ed. Oh, one thing that I definitely think could have happened, is that some R1b L23 people, perhaps in the late Neolithic/Copper Age, as just an example, could have set sail from the eastern Mediterranean and gone across to Iberia, even perhaps stopping for some time on the coast of North Africa.
    I agree that if R1b was originally ANE, that would have been diluted as it travelled west, but since Sardinia is nearly 20% R1b and well under 1% ANE, that's a lot of dilution, especially since the small amount of ANE could have come from other haplotypes. And I know of nothing that gives us an ANE connection to R1b of the kind we have for R1a. I can't find anything on line about an autosomal analysis of the two oldest R1b samples we have for Europe (which are also the only two Y DNA samples we have for Bell Beaker). It would be interesting to see whether such ancient R1b was ANE.

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    [QUOTE=Aberdeen;442002]I agree that if R1b was originally ANE, that would have been diluted as it travelled west, but since Sardinia is nearly 20% R1b and well under 1% ANE, that's a lot of dilution, especially since the small amount of ANE could have come from other haplotypes. And I know of nothing that gives us an ANE connection to R1b of the kind we have for R1a. I can't find anything on line about an autosomal analysis of the two oldest R1b samples we have for Europe (which are also the only two Y DNA samples we have for Bell Beaker). It would be interesting to see whether such ancient R1b was ANE.[/QUOTI]

    It certainly would, although, of course, they would be the product of admixtures along the way as well.

    I suppose part of what underlies my reasoning is the finding that Mal'ta, who is by definition 100% ANE, was "R" or pre "R". Therefore, I guess it seems logical to me that both R1b and R1a are related to ANE.

    I also think there's something to be said for the formulation of Jean Manco and others that this group then moved southwest (tracking micolith technology), with R1a perhaps further north and R1b further south.

    The path that R1b took from there is an open question as far as I'm concerned.

    I've seen some people speculate that R1b was the haplogroup of Maykop, or Cucuteni, for example, and got scattered when steppe invasions began in earnest. I've wondered if that's true, whether that could also have led to a migration west by sea.

    I think the only way we're going to know is with lots and lots of ancient dna. As recent threads have shown, a few results don't answer all the questions.

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    [QUOTE=Angela;442052]
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I agree that if R1b was originally ANE, that would have been diluted as it travelled west, but since Sardinia is nearly 20% R1b and well under 1% ANE, that's a lot of dilution, especially since the small amount of ANE could have come from other haplotypes. And I know of nothing that gives us an ANE connection to R1b of the kind we have for R1a. I can't find anything on line about an autosomal analysis of the two oldest R1b samples we have for Europe (which are also the only two Y DNA samples we have for Bell Beaker). It would be interesting to see whether such ancient R1b was ANE.[/QUOTI]

    It certainly would, although, of course, they would be the product of admixtures along the way as well.

    I suppose part of what underlies my reasoning is the finding that Mal'ta, who is by definition 100% ANE, was "R" or pre "R". Therefore, I guess it seems logical to me that both R1b and R1a are related to ANE.

    I also think there's something to be said for the formulation of Jean Manco and others that this group then moved southwest (tracking micolith technology), with R1a perhaps further north and R1b further south.

    The path that R1b took from there is an open question as far as I'm concerned.

    I've seen some people speculate that R1b was the haplogroup of Maykop, or Cucuteni, for example, and got scattered when steppe invasions began in earnest. I've wondered if that's true, whether that could also have led to a migration west by sea.

    I think the only way we're going to know is with lots and lots of ancient dna. As recent threads have shown, a few results don't answer all the questions.
    I understand your point about Mal'ta Boy, and whatever surviving relatives of his became the ancestors of R1a and R1b people, but I haven't seen any data showing whether the ANE stayed strong in R1b or whether it was diluted to the point of disappearance, although it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case for the V-88 subclade. IMO, whether or not other subclades retained a strong ANE profile would depend on how they reached Europe. If R1b wasn't part of proto-IE but instead reached western Europe by way of Anatolia and from there further westward by sea, I wouldn't expect to see much of an ANE signature in the earliest examples of R1b in western Europe. And I wouldn't expect a high level of ANE if R1b took the Balkan route from Anatolia. However, if the earliest examples of R1b were high in ANE, I would assume R1b was likely part of the proto-IE population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I agree that if R1b was originally ANE, that would have been diluted as it travelled west, but since Sardinia is nearly 20% R1b and well under 1% ANE, that's a lot of dilution, especially since the small amount of ANE could have come from other haplotypes. And I know of nothing that gives us an ANE connection to R1b of the kind we have for R1a. I can't find anything on line about an autosomal analysis of the two oldest R1b samples we have for Europe (which are also the only two Y DNA samples we have for Bell Beaker). It would be interesting to see whether such ancient R1b was ANE.
    Same example could be made from R1a Shammar bedouins. By your logic they should have a fair amount of ANE, the Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%).
    What about groups/regions like Lezgins/Tabassarans from where did they get there ANE J/R1a/G?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Same example could be made from R1a Shammar bedouins. By your logic they should have a fair amount of ANE, the Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)—with a small percentage of G2 (4.76%).
    What about groups/regions like Lezgins/Tabassarans from where did they get there ANE J/R1a/G?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1410860471
    If we apply my logic concerning R1b and ANE to R1a, we could expect to find some modern R1a people with little or no noticeable ANE if they travelled a long way from Siberia a long time ago while repeatedly mixing with other people who aren't ANE, which I believe is the situation we have with modern Arab R1a types. But if other R1a types migrated westward from Siberia to Europe without much mixing with other people, we could expect to find that they have a strong ANE signature, which apparently was the case with the Corded Ware folk and may have been the case with the IE folk. Now do you understand? I don't know how much clearer I could make my explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    I agree with Angela, many people on antro boards tend to minimize the near eastern identity of the early farmers, probably for some political agenda, I think. Political wannabeism and science always clash, genetics are not exception to this rule Leaving aside "hobby" calculators, according to Genographic and FamilyTreeDNA I'm around 16% "Asia minor". It's a trace of neolithic expansion from the Fertile Crescent into Europe according to them - and we know they're right - and the very most europeans have (variable) amounts of this component in their DNA. It's part of us since 8,000 years.
    My MTDNA haplogroup is HV, genographic project associates it to neolithic expansion, too.
    Sorry, I have to edit it

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    Angela maltese are the europeans with higher neolithic farmer affinities (circa 93%) followed by Ashkenazi jewish. No samples from south and island Greece though in Lazaridis study.

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    Yes but it is different from Lazaridis study however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Angela maltese are the europeans with higher neolithic farmer affinities (circa 93%) followed by Ashkenazi jewish. No samples from south and island Greece though in Lazaridis study.
    As far as the Ashkenazim are concerned, I think that part of it may have to do with the fact that they have been mostly endogamous for the last approximately 2000 years, which means that they have preserved many autosomal (as well as uniparental)l signatures lost not only in Europe but in the Near East. The other, somewhat contradictory part of the equation is that I think the mercantile, coastal Mediterranean "Jewish" population of the Classical era which provided the "founder" groups of the non Near Eastern "Jewish" population was already pretty "mixed" away from its strictly Levantine roots. However, I don't want to derail the thread into a long discussion of Ashkenazi, in particular, ethnogenesis.

    As to the Greeks, there is a dearth of samples. We don't know the origin of the samples in Dodecad. The Lazaridis study didn't use samples from the Peloponnese or the islands, to my knowledge, but their sample, which I believe is from far northern mainland Greece (Thessaly?), is 79% EEF.

    The Paschou et al study does provide some academic samples for these areas, but doesn't provide an EEF/WHG/ANE analysis. As you say in your PM, looking at all their data and graphics it does seem to show that Sicilians are between the mainland and the island Greeks, so it's not unreasonable to speculate that island Greeks have more EEF, and mainland Greeks less than Sicilians. In those graphics, although a few mainlanders overlap with far southern Tuscans(probably the Thessaly group), most mainland Greeks are south of central Italians. The people of Firenze who provide the sample for the Tuscans are 75% EEF. Thessaly is 79%. By the time you get to Lazio I don't think it would be outlandish to speculate that you'd be close to the 83% levels you see in much of Spain. So I'd say that upwards of 83%, would be in the ballpark for most mainland Greeks and certainly for the Peloponnese. I wonder if they would be a more ANE shifted version of Campanians or Lucanians perhaps? However, someone should do a study on the Greeks which is careful to screen samples for long history in certain areas, at least to great grandparent level, especially given the population upheavals in Greek history in the last 1000 years and even very recently.

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    As far as i know the samples of Lazaridis et al are from Thessaloniki.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Paschou et al study does provide some academic samples for these areas, but doesn't provide an EEF/WHG/ANE analysis. As you say in your PM, looking at all their data and graphics it does seem to show that Sicilians are between the mainland and the island Greeks, so it's not unreasonable to speculate that island Greeks have more EEF, and mainland Greeks less than Sicilians.
    The islands sampled in that study are Cretans and Dodecanese, and from having seen many 23andme, and Gedmatch results for different Greek islanders it is likely that these Greeks have the most Near Eastern ancestry of all the islands, and other islanders seem to be more similar to the mainland, either due to proximity or due to the smaller pre-Greek populations as compared to Crete (which was heavily populated by Minoans).

    Peloponnesians are very similar to other mainland Greeks. In fact some of them on the 23andme PCA plot fall near me, and I am half southern Italian, a quarter Polish and a quarter Portuguese. I suspect most mainland Greeks are a more Balto-Slavic influenced version of Abruzzese and Campanians.

    Anyway, since the vast majority of the Greek population is mainland (and centered toward the north and center of the country), it makes most sense to represent Greece in studies with a mainland sample.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    The islands sampled in that study are Cretans and Dodecanese, and from having seen many 23andme, and Gedmatch results for different Greek islanders it is likely that these Greeks have the most Near Eastern ancestry of all the islands, and other islanders seem to be more similar to the mainland, either due to proximity or due to the smaller pre-Greek populations as compared to Crete (which was heavily populated by Minoans).

    Peloponnesians are very similar to other mainland Greeks. In fact some of them on the 23andme PCA plot fall near me, and I am half southern Italian, a quarter Polish and a quarter Portuguese. I suspect most mainland Greeks are a more Balto-Slavic influenced version of Abruzzese and Campanians.

    Anyway, since the vast majority of the Greek population is mainland (and centered toward the north and center of the country), it makes most sense to represent Greece in studies with a mainland sample.

    Sorry, 23andme results, like the results of any private testing firm, are self-selected samples from people interested in the topic and with sufficient income to indulge their interest. Any analysis based on these results is therefore not dispositive. (The same thing happened with y Dna testing by the private companies, heavily skewed toward people of British Isles descent, which obscured the source and routes of migration of many R1b clades. Of course the results when properly understood have been very helpful in other ways.)

    In addition, there is no way of knowing if any individual's "collection" of results is an "accurate" reflection of all 23andme results for a certain group as a whole. Of course, I'm excluding the situation where some hacker could have gotten into the 23andme data base, but in that case, such a person would be unlikely to present the date honestly any way, and ultimately the 23andme me samples are still not necessarily representative of any "national" group.

    Therefore, only academic samples chosen using standard protocols should form the basis for any solid conclusions. Of course, such results then have to be analyzed carefully. There are academics, and then there are academics. None of their conclusions should be taken at face value. At least, however, we have scientifically selected samples most of the time as a start point.

    Your decision to ignore Greek island samples is novel to say the least. Perhaps we should ignore Basque samples as well? How about the decision in Lazaridis et al to divide the Spanish sample into a "northern" group and a "southern" group? Was that a bad idea as well? Or, in a highly structured country like Italy, is it a bad idea to divide the samples into northern, Tuscan and southern Italian results?

    The fact that modern Greeks (like modern Spaniards, or Italians, or anyone else) currently live in large urban areas with more economic opportunities is irrelevant for population genetics purposes. The purpose of this testing is to see if the results from "modern" populations can give us any clues about ancient migrations, which looks increasingly as if it is very problematic indeed. Unless, of course, your analysis has another purpose entirely, of which I'm unaware?

    Also, you might want to refresh your recollection of Paschou et al. Samples from the Peloponnese were included in the study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Your decision to ignore Greek island samples is novel to say the least.
    It's not "ignoring" it, Just stating that Crete and the Dodecanese might not be genetically representative of the islands in the North Aegean (like Lesbos) or Ionian islands (like Lefkada). And based on the differences in results I have seen for people in Crete and Dodecanese compared to other islands, they would not be representative as these are the most genetically outlying islands.

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    I am curious to see what kind of look the neolithic farmers had. It's must be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    It's not "ignoring" it, Just stating that Crete and the Dodecanese might not be genetically representative of the islands in the North Aegean (like Lesbos) or Ionian islands (like Lefkada). And based on the differences in results I have seen for people in Crete and Dodecanese compared to other islands, they would not be representative as these are the most genetically outlying islands.
    Let me rephrase: Your opinion that "it makes most sense to represent Greece in studies with a mainland sample" is novel to say the least. I've never before heard anyone interested in population genetics opine that characterizing the population of a highly genetically structured population by using one sample from one extreme of that spectrum (far northern Greece) is a good idea. I will also repeat: the population in all developed countries has moved to larger cities for work. However, in order to accurately represent the population structure of a country one must sample people from all areas. This is even more true if one is attempting to trace migration flows in order to answer questions about the peopling of Europe. However, perhaps your choices and focus are dictated by other motivations.

    [QUOTE=Oreo Cookie: And based on the differences in results I have seen for people in Crete and Dodecanese compared to other islands, they would not be representative as these are the most genetically outlying islands.[/QUOTE]

    That may or may not be the case. Perhaps I was unclear, so I will repeat. Any collection of results you may have assembled through sharing with people on 23andme, even if they are honestly presented, are not necessarily representative of the entire body of Greek results at 23andme, without even taking into consideration the fact that the samples at 23andme are not a scientifically chosen representative sample, so I'm afraid I find your conclusions to be on the level of anecdotal evidence.

    When you are able to provide scientifically chosen samples from these areas that could be interpreted in such a way, I would, of course, be happy to discuss further what these would then say about migration flows and the peopling of Europe. I'm afraid I'm uninterested in anthrofora games on the level of who has the most North African, who has the most Near Eastern, who has the most SSA, and who has the most Asian ancestry in order to determine who is more "European" so I will not be participating in any such discussions.

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