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Thread: Modern populations and neolithic farmers?

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    Modern populations and neolithic farmers?

    I'm wondering what contemporary population has the clearest connection to the farmers who came to Europe 8,000 years ago from the Fertile Crescent. Any ideas?

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    Well, since the academics say over and over again that the ancient samples we have cluster with modern day Sardinians, I suppose they're the best candidate.

    Here's the PCA from Lazaridis et al:
    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r...ig1b_small.png

    It's too small an image, but if you enlarge it on your computer you can see what I mean.
    Probably better to take a look at it in the paper.
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html

    Or we can go with EEF levels:
    Attachment 6673

    Ashkenazi 93%, Sicilians 90%, Sardinians 82%, Spanish 81%, Greeks 79% and down from there.

    The Sicilians score higher because of additional "doses" they got later, probably mostly, although not only during the Metal Ages through mainland Greece and the Islands as vectors. (The Maltese would fit in here as well.)

    The Ashkenazi are a special case. It's complicated. They may be preserving the genetic signal of the ancient Near East better than other populations.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, since the academics say over and over again that the ancient samples we have cluster with modern day Sardinians, I suppose they're a good candidate.

    Or we can go with EEF levels:
    Attachment 6673
    But don't forget that EEF is a hybrid of the Neolithic component and of the Mesolithic WHG component. Therefore it might not best represent the Basal Eurasian component, considering the fact that EEF is merely a hybrid.

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    We don't have the genome of an early farmer in the Near East. The closest we have is Stuttgart. Plus, we don't know yet where the various elements came together to form EEF. For all we know, it could have all happened in the Near East.

    One can only answer questions based on the currently available data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We don't have the genome of an early farmer in the Near East. The closest we have is Stuttgart. Plus, we don't know yet where the various elements came together to form EEF. For all we know, it could have all happened in the Near East.

    One can only answer questions based on the currently available data.
    Alright, but from what I know one of the components that make up EEF is a Mesolithic component that is WHG like, please correct me if I'm wrong though.

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    Thanks for your replies folks, but they lead me to one more question... What is basal eurasian? Pardon my ignorance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Thanks for your replies folks, but they lead me to one more question... What is basal eurasian? Pardon my ignorance...
    You can read the paper that discusses the concept at David Reich's Harvard genetics website. I'd give you the link, except that I'm having trouble with my new computer. But just search under David Reich.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Sardinians are a near-perfect (~99%) genetic snapshot of people in Southern Europe before the "ANE" migration into Europe ("Ancient North Eurasian"--sometimes associated with Y-DNA haplogroup R and/or Indo-European languages, although not always exclusively). Every other group, including Sicilians, Ashkenazi Jews, and Basques, have significantly more ANE. The only thing that keeps the Sardinians from having the most Neolithic farmer ancestry is that they also have significant European hunter-gatherer mixed in (~17%).

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Alright, but from what I know one of the components that make up EEF is a Mesolithic component that is WHG like, please correct me if I'm wrong though.
    I don't see how any of that changes the answer to the question, but...

    Lazaridis et al found that this model is the best fit for the evidence we have so far:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNA...1600/model.png

    As you can see, EEF is estimated to possess 44% plus or minus 10% "Basal Eurasian". The rest is from the "West Eurasian" branch from which WHG also stemmed. So the additional lineage or lineages would be related to WHG.

    Some admixture might and probably did take place in Europe, (10-20%?) but the farmers in the Near East would have already been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" and some Unknown Hunter Gatherers from the same ancient branch of humanity as the WHGs of Europe. (Mind, the Basal Eurasians would also have been hunter gatherers. People seem to have trouble keeping in mind that everyone was once a hunter-gatherer. We don't know if the "Basal Eurasians" alone developed farming. I would doubt it; I think they are much too old for that. So, the inventors of farming and animal husbandry, upon which all of the remainder of our history is built, would have most likely been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" HG and "West Eurasian" HG.)

    This is all discussed in the supplement starting on page 59.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-3.pdf

    .
    As we get more ancient genomes, I'm sure that their models will change. That's one of the hallmarks of this group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ed. Could a moderator please remove this? It's a double post. Thanks.



    I don't see how any of that changes the answer to the question, but...

    Lazaridis et al found that this model is the best fit for the evidence we have so far:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YbYK8NzQNA...1600/model.png

    As you can see, EEF is estimated to possess 44% plus or minus 10% "Basal Eurasian". The rest is from the "West Eurasian" branch from which WHG also stemmed. So the additional lineage or lineages would be related to WHG.

    Some admixture might and probably did take place in Europe, (10-20%?) but the farmers in the Near East would have already been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" and some Unknown Hunter Gatherers from the same ancient branch of humanity as the WHGs of Europe. (Mind, the Basal Eurasians would also have been hunter gatherers. People seem to have trouble keeping in mind that everyone was once a hunter-gatherer. We don't know if the "Basal Eurasians" alone developed farming. I would doubt it; I think they are much too old for that. So, the inventors of farming and animal husbandry, upon which all of the remainder of our history is built, would have most likely been an admixture of "Basal Eurasian" HG and "West Eurasian" HG.)

    This is all discussed in the supplement starting on page 59.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/001552-3.pdf

    As we get more ancient genomes, I'm sure that their models will change. That's one of the hallmarks of this group.
    Oh, I see... Thanks for the detailed information, from this map I can see that EEF component isn't exactly descended from WHG, but from a related HG which stems from the same common ancestor with WHG (west Eurasian), as well as from Basal Eurasian thanks. Yeah, we must remember that we still don't know everything, and that not all the cards are on the table yet.

    P.S This means that most of the EEF component is descended from this unknown west Eurasian HG, and only 10% of it (plus minus 44%) comes from the Basal Eurasians?

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    This is a link to the 2013 preprint which contains a link to the Supplement where the meat of the analysis can be found. The published 2014 version is behind a paywall.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...2.figures-only

    For discussions of Basal Eurasian, just use the search engine here.

    Here is one thread where it was discussed...
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...asal+Eurasians

    If you read the supplement carefully, you'll see that Lazaridis tried to use far southern Bedouins as the reference population because they have so little ANE, but the problem is that they are recently SSA admixed, so it wasn't really satisfactory.

    I think we're really just going to have to wait for some more ancient genomes. Problem is, the warmer the climate the less likely they survive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is a link to the 2013 preprint which contains a link to the Supplement where the meat of the analysis can be found. The published 2014 version is behind a paywall.
    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...2.figures-only

    For discussions of Basal Eurasian, just use the search engine here.

    Here is one thread where it was extensively discussed...
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...asal+Eurasians

    If you read the supplement carefully, you'll see that Lazaridis tried to use far southern Bedouins as the reference population, but the problem is that they are recently SSA admixed, so it wasn't really satisfactory.

    I think we're really just going to have to wait for some more ancient genomes. Problem is, the warmer the climate the less likely they survive.
    Alright thanks. Then it's a sort of race against time. :-/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    You can read the paper that discusses the concept at David Reich's Harvard genetics website. I'd give you the link, except that I'm having trouble with my new computer. But just search under David Reich.
    Thank you. I found something on facebook, a DNA tribes pdf about the Basal Eurasians, it seems pretty good
    http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2014-03-01.pdf

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    @Angela I was wondering, I used to check Dienekes for new studies, but he seems to be inactive, is there another blog that uploads the newest studies?

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    EEF is estimated to have 44% Basal,plus or minus 10%.

    As for Martin at DnaTribes that's just one speculation among many. It could all be shifted northward, and they could have been in Arabia all that time. The poster "Parasar" at Anthrogenica even holds out for a southeastern European refuge, although he's decidedly in the minority.

    Far wiser to stick with Lazaridis, imo, and just say we don't know yet.

    Even the details of the exodus from Africa posited by Dna Tribes are not universally accepted.
    See: http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...or-out-of.html

    I personally take all the DnaTribes analyses with a lot of salt,forget a grain. Look at the hash he made with that first STR based ancestry tool. I am probably the only user for whom it actually worked.

    As to where recent papers can be found, Dienekes still posts the ones that particularly interest him, but not as many as he used to do, and he no longer provides commentary.(The authors would sometimes get into the discussions as well, which was wonderful.) I know some schools and educators that were using it as a guide. It's a great pity it's so inactive.

    Some are also posted at Anthrogenica, but it's such a confusing site to use...

    Of course, you could always be a complete nerd like me and get news feeds about archaeology, genetics, psychology papers etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    EEF is estimated to have 44% Basal,plus or minus 10%.

    As for Martin at DnaTribes that's just one speculation among many. It could all be shifted northward, and they could have been in Arabia all that time. The poster "Parasar" at Anthrogenica even holds out for a southeastern European refuge, although he's decidedly in the minority.

    Far wiser to stick with Lazaridis, imo, and just say we don't know yet.

    Even the details of the exodus from Africa posited by Dna Tribes are not universally accepted.
    See: http://www.dienekes.blogspot.com/201...or-out-of.html

    I personally take all the DnaTribes analyses with a lot of salt,forget a grain. Look at the hash he made with that first STR based ancestry tool. I am probably the only user for whom it actually worked.

    As to where recent papers can be found, Dienekes still posts the ones that particularly interest him, but not as many as he used to do, and he no longer provides commentary.(The authors would sometimes get into the discussions as well, which was wonderful.) I know some schools and educators that were using it as a guide. It's a great pity it's so inactive.

    Some are also posted at Anthrogenica, but it's such a confusing site to use...

    Of course, you could always be a complete nerd like me and get news feeds about archaeology, genetics, psychology papers etc.
    Oh, it's 44% Basal Eurasian plus/minus 10%, pardon me. LOL, assuming I want to be a complete nerd, how will I start getting news feeds about archaeology, genetics etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Oh, it's 44% Basal Eurasian plus/minus 10%, pardon me. LOL, assuming I want to be a complete nerd, how will I start getting news feeds about archaeology, genetics etc?
    Well, there's Science Daily, for example, which provides a daily feed, or The National Geographic organization, or the Council of British Archaeology, or the one on Biblical Archaeology, or if you want it in audio, there's the Archaeology Channel. That's a good one, because you can listen as you do more mundane things. That's just for a start. Just google news feeds with your area of interest and things should pop up.

    Then you can follow certain people on twitter, although I don't do that much, as it makes me feel like a stalker!

    The problem is not access; the problem is the time to read and understand the papers. Then there's literature, and film and music, and most important, of course, family and friends. Then there's the little things like work, and cleaning and cooking and eating etc...It helps if you can multi-task...it also helps if you don't sleep much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, there's Science Daily, for example, which provides a daily feed, or The National Geographic organization, or the Council of British Archaeology, or the one on Biblical Archaeology, or if you want it in audio, there's the Archaeology Channel. That's a good one, because you can listen as you do more mundane things. That's just for a start. Just google news feeds with your area of interest and things should pop up.

    Then you can follow certain people on twitter, although I don't do that much, as it makes me feel like a stalker!

    The problem is not access; the problem is the time to read and understand the papers. Then there's literature, and film and music, and most important, of course, family and friends. Then there's the little things like work, and cleaning and cooking and eating etc...It helps if you can multi-task...it also helps if you don't sleep much.
    Lol thanks, I'll check those sites out. :)

    Edit: Science daily fits me best, I just don't have enough time to daily check so many pages. :-P
    Last edited by John Doe; 01-10-14 at 14:05.

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    Basal Eurasian peaks among Arabs. Israeli Beduins from the HGDP panel score 90% ENF and 10% East African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Basal Eurasian peaks among Arabs. Israeli Beduins from the HGDP panel score 90% ENF and 10% East African.
    Via which study/calculator? May I have a link? What do Ashkenazi Jews get according to HGDP?

    My results for: Eurogenes_ANE K7 Admixture Proportions:


    Revised 2014-Sep-12

    Population
    ANE 8.38%
    ASE 1.83%
    WHG-UHG 32.72%
    East_Eurasian 0.14%
    West_African 0.57%
    East_African 0.91%
    ENF 55.44%

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    Eurogenes ANE K7. You can find the spreadsheet on Polako's blog.

    Have you got those results from Gedmatch? If yes they are wrong and you should use the software from Dodecad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Eurogenes ANE K7. You can find the spreadsheet on Polako's blog.

    Have you got those results from Gedmatch? If yes they are wrong and you should use the software from Dodecad.
    Yeah I got those results from Gedmatch. Here are my manual results:


    8.38% ANE
    1.58% ASE
    33.16% WHG-UHG
    0.31% East_Eurasian
    0.38% West_African
    1.32% East_African
    54.87% ENF


    They aren't that different truth be told, but more accurate I guess.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I'm sorry to revive an old thread, but questions were raised once again in the ancient British genomes threads about the three ancestral populations of Europe. I think to get into a detailed discussion there about this topic would have been hijacking those threads, so I am posting my thoughts here.

    Questions concerning the amount of "WHG" in EEF keep being asked and again. For suggesting that it is a distraction in terms of the discussion of the peopling of Europe, a respected, published author has been attacked on another forum.

    I will here speak only for myself. I get the distinct feeling at times that this obsession with quantifying the amount of "WHG" in EEF may, in some people, stem from an attempt to nail down exactly how "European" a group or a person is by taking that figure and adding it to the "regular" WHG in the figures given for modern populations in Lazaridis et al. Apparently, ANE is considered "European" enough not to raise concern, despite its eastern affinities. The short answer is that we are all 100% European, whether we come from France, or Finland, or southern Italy, and whether we can be modeled best with two or three of these ancestral EEF/WHG/ANE populations.

    That undertone also is present, imo, in many of these discussions about how much hunter-gatherer is present in groups or individuals. This reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of human history. Everyone is 100% descended from hunter-gatherers as I've said repeatedly on many threads for many years, because all of those groups, Basal Eurasian, UHG, WHG, ANE, and all the others were hunter gatherers before they learned how to farm.

    It seems to me that some people obsessed with these questions (of course, not those who merely seek to understand the issues),
    who are constantly, to use a phrase I'd like to borrow, "massaging" the data through calculators etc. are merely concerned with minimizing, as much as possible, any "Near Eastern" element in them or their groups.

    I'm afraid that like it or not, most of EEF was Near Eastern.

    Since apparently people forget it, here is the appropriate excerpt, I think, from Lazaridis et al.

    "The amount of Near Eastern admixture estimated for Stuttgart can be seen in Table S10.2 and range between 61-98% with estimates increasing as the amount of estimated African admixture in BedouinBincreases.There are reasons to doubt both the lower estimates (near60%), since ALDER provides only a lower bound on African ancestry, but also the )higher estimates (near 100%) since there is direct evidence that Stuttgart has European hunter-gatherer ancestry (Fig. 1B and Table S10.1

    Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies
    from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably claim that most of the sample’s ancestry was Near Eastern, consistent with the mtDNA evidence for the Linearbandkeramik, which demonstrated a strong Near Eastern influence3-5
    "



    (So, in Stuttgart, the Near Eastern admixture, according to this excerpt , is somewhere between 60 and 98%. I may have erred in using the 25% figure for the non Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart (whether you call it UHG or WHG or a combination or anything else) I believe that is the figure for Oetzi. Anyone is free to correct the percentage from the academic literature, not if you please, from amateur "calculators", some of which have already been proved to be unreliable. Regardless, that is why I stated elsewhere that the majority of EEF’s ancestry is from the Middle East.

    If any of this is incorrect, in fact, please direct me to a quote from the paper to that effect.

    If someone wants to dispute the general statement, then I would suggest that they contact Lazaridis and Reich and point out how their statistical ability is superior to that of the authors. Or, they might want to write a paper and submit it for peer review. )



    I also want to make sure that we are comparing similar things. The calculations that were made in the paper as to EEF/WHG/ANE in modern populations were based, to the best of my recollection, on Stuttgart. They certainly were not based on the Gok farmer results. Therefore, it's irrelevant for this purpose that Gok farmers had more WHG than did Stuttgar. The calculator used in the paper is comparing the genomes of modern Europeans to Stuttgart. That is the source of the 50% figure that is used for the EEF level in English people. They are not being compared to the Gok famers Again, if I'm wrong, and the paper is using both Stuttgart and Oetzi, for example, please correctt the record. This shouldn't be all about ego; it should be about getting it right.

    Perhaps I am, knowing the history of certain segments of the amateur community, seeing a problem where none exists, and if that is the case, I apologize, and I certainly don't mean to tar all people who ask these questions or discuss them with the same brush, but it seems to me that a related issue involves all of the discussions and data analysis around how much total UHG/WHG is present in certain populations and people. It sometimes seems to me that the underlying concern for some people is not to have Basal Eurasian. If that's the case, I don't even have the words to express how pathetic I think that is...

    In terms of the Near Eastern farmers, I do not recollect that the authors of Lazaridis et al provided a figure for the BE in them. There is a figure for the amount of Basal Eurasian in Stuttgart of 44% plus or minus 10%. So, if anyone wants to figure out their percentage of Basal Eurasian, just, for a rough estimate, take 44% of your group's EEF and there you have it. Now, for those so inclined, you can have a contest over who has the least amount of it. Mazel Tov in advance.

    As to the "source" of Basal Eurasian, this is what the authors of the paper have to say:
    " The Near East was the staging point for the peopling of Eurasia by anatomicallymodern humans. As a result, it is entirely plausible that it harbored deep Eurasian ancestry which did not initially participate in the northward colonization of Europe, but was later brought into Europe by Near Eastern farmers. More speculatively, some basal Eurasian admixture in the Near East may reflect the early presence of anatomically modern humans7in the Levant, or the populations responsible for the appearance ofthe Nubian Complex in Arabia8, both of which date much earlier than the widespread dissemination of modern humans across Eurasia. Finally, it could reflect continuing more recent gene flows between the Near East and nearby Africa after the initial out-of-Africa dispersal, perhaps associated with the spread of Y-chromosome haplogroup E subclades from eastern Africa 9, 10into the Near East, which appeared at least 7,000 years ago into Neolithic Europe11. "

    So far as I can see, the question is still open, and the answers must await further ancient dna and responsible modeling by academics.

    To conclude, Jean Manco posted a synopsis of the peopling of Europe which is a model of clearsightedness and logic. I hope she doesn't mind my posting it here for those who don't check in to Anthrogenica occasionally.


    "The import of the Lazaridis paper is that there were three migrations into Europe [my notes in brackets]:

    1. From the Asian crossroads/Middle East in the Palaeolithic. [mtDNA U and Y-DNA IJ and F]
    2. From the Middle Eastern Neolithic heartland in the Neolithic. [mtDNA U3, H, I, J, V etc and Y-DNA G, with a bit of E]
    3. From the Asian steppe in the Copper Age. [Y-DNA R]

    As each of the waves reached Europe it mixed with descendants of the previous wave(s). "

    All of the other comments in this post are my own and not to be attributed to her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm sorry to revive an old thread, but questions were raised once again in the ancient British genomes threads about the three ancestral populations of Europe. I think to get into a detailed discussion there about this topic would have been hijacking those threads, so I am posting my thoughts here.

    Questions concerning the amount of "WHG" in EEF keep being asked and again. For suggesting that it is a distraction in terms of the discussion of the peopling of Europe, a respected, published author has been attacked on another forum.

    I will here speak only for myself. I get the distinct feeling at times that this obsession with quantifying the amount of "WHG" in EEF may, in some people, stem from an attempt to nail down exactly how "European" a group or a person is by taking that figure and adding it to the "regular" WHG in the figures given for modern populations in Lazaridis et al. Apparently, ANE is considered "European" enough not to raise concern, despite its eastern affinities. The short answer is that we are all 100% European, whether we come from France, or Finland, or southern Italy, and whether we can be modeled best with two or three of these ancestral EEF/WHG/ANE populations.

    That undertone also is present, imo, in many of these discussions about how much hunter-gatherer is present in groups or individuals. This reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of human history. Everyone is 100% descended from hunter-gatherers as I've said repeatedly on many threads for many years, because all of those groups, Basal Eurasian, UHG, WHG, ANE, and all the others were hunter gatherers before they learned how to farm.

    It seems to me that some people obsessed with these questions (of course, not those who merely seek to understand the issues),
    who are constantly, to use a phrase I'd like to borrow, "massaging" the data through calculators etc. are merely concerned with minimizing, as much as possible, any "Near Eastern" element in them or their groups.

    I'm afraid that like it or not, most of EEF was Near Eastern.

    Since apparently people forget it, here is the appropriate excerpt, I think, from Lazaridis et al.

    "The amount of Near Eastern admixture estimated for Stuttgart can be seen in Table S10.2 and range between 61-98% with estimates increasing as the amount of estimated African admixture in BedouinBincreases.There are reasons to doubt both the lower estimates (near60%), since ALDER provides only a lower bound on African ancestry, but also the )higher estimates (near 100%) since there is direct evidence that Stuttgart has European hunter-gatherer ancestry (Fig. 1B and Table S10.1

    Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies
    from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably claim that most of the sample’s ancestry was Near Eastern, consistent with the mtDNA evidence for the Linearbandkeramik, which demonstrated a strong Near Eastern influence3-5
    "



    (So, in Stuttgart, the Near Eastern admixture, according to this excerpt , is somewhere between 60 and 98%. I may have erred in using the 25% figure for the non Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart (whether you call it UHG or WHG or a combination or anything else) I believe that is the figure for Oetzi. Anyone is free to correct the percentage from the academic literature, not if you please, from amateur "calculators", some of which have already been proved to be unreliable. Regardless, that is why I stated elsewhere that the majority of EEF’s ancestry is from the Middle East.

    If any of this is incorrect, in fact, please direct me to a quote from the paper to that effect.

    If someone wants to dispute the general statement, then I would suggest that they contact Lazaridis and Reich and point out how their statistical ability is superior to that of the authors. Or, they might want to write a paper and submit it for peer review. )



    I also want to make sure that we are comparing similar things. The calculations that were made in the paper as to EEF/WHG/ANE in modern populations were based, to the best of my recollection, on Stuttgart. They certainly were not based on the Gok farmer results. Therefore, it's irrelevant for this purpose that Gok farmers had more WHG than did Stuttgar. The calculator used in the paper is comparing the genomes of modern Europeans to Stuttgart. That is the source of the 50% figure that is used for the EEF level in English people. They are not being compared to the Gok famers Again, if I'm wrong, and the paper is using both Stuttgart and Oetzi, for example, please correctt the record. This shouldn't be all about ego; it should be about getting it right.

    Perhaps I am, knowing the history of certain segments of the amateur community, seeing a problem where none exists, and if that is the case, I apologize, and I certainly don't mean to tar all people who ask these questions or discuss them with the same brush, but it seems to me that a related issue involves all of the discussions and data analysis around how much total UHG/WHG is present in certain populations and people. It sometimes seems to me that the underlying concern for some people is not to have Basal Eurasian. If that's the case, I don't even have the words to express how pathetic I think that is...

    In terms of the Near Eastern farmers, I do not recollect that the authors of Lazaridis et al provided a figure for the BE in them. There is a figure for the amount of Basal Eurasian in Stuttgart of 44% plus or minus 10%. So, if anyone wants to figure out their percentage of Basal Eurasian, just, for a rough estimate, take 44% of your group's EEF and there you have it. Now, for those so inclined, you can have a contest over who has the least amount of it. Mazel Tov in advance.

    As to the "source" of Basal Eurasian, this is what the authors of the paper have to say:
    " The Near East was the staging point for the peopling of Eurasia by anatomicallymodern humans. As a result, it is entirely plausible that it harbored deep Eurasian ancestry which did not initially participate in the northward colonization of Europe, but was later brought into Europe by Near Eastern farmers. More speculatively, some basal Eurasian admixture in the Near East may reflect the early presence of anatomically modern humans7in the Levant, or the populations responsible for the appearance ofthe Nubian Complex in Arabia8, both of which date much earlier than the widespread dissemination of modern humans across Eurasia. Finally, it could reflect continuing more recent gene flows between the Near East and nearby Africa after the initial out-of-Africa dispersal, perhaps associated with the spread of Y-chromosome haplogroup E subclades from eastern Africa 9, 10into the Near East, which appeared at least 7,000 years ago into Neolithic Europe11. "

    So far as I can see, the question is still open, and the answers must await further ancient dna and responsible modeling by academics.

    To conclude, Jean Manco posted a synopsis of the peopling of Europe which is a model of clearsightedness and logic. I hope she doesn't mind my posting it here for those who don't check in to Anthrogenica occasionally.


    "The import of the Lazaridis paper is that there were three migrations into Europe [my notes in brackets]:

    1. From the Asian crossroads/Middle East in the Palaeolithic. [mtDNA U and Y-DNA IJ and F]
    2. From the Middle Eastern Neolithic heartland in the Neolithic. [mtDNA U3, H, I, J, V etc and Y-DNA G, with a bit of E]
    3. From the Asian steppe in the Copper Age. [Y-DNA R]

    As each of the waves reached Europe it mixed with descendants of the previous wave(s). "

    All of the other comments in this post are my own and not to be attributed to her.
    Thank you for the detailed explanation. I was really confused as to what it all meant, but now I understand (at least, as much as we currently know). Thanks. :)

    So, let's see, as an Ashkenazi Jew according to Iosif I would be 93.1% EEF, so:
    93.1-44%=52.1%
    Interesting. :-P

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    That was an excellent summary, Angela, and it helped clarify some things for me. But I have a question. If we eventually have detailed information about the genetic history of North Africa, do you think it could reveal the possibility that "basal European" could be gene flow from North Africa during the Neolithic? Given that Neolithic people were apparently much better sailors than was once assumed, we have two probable access routes, one from what is now Libya and one from what is now Morocco. IMO, if "basal European" is a yet undiscovered "ghost population", the ghosts might be hiding in the one place nobody has yet looked.

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