Differences between Western(Catholic-Protestant) and Orthodox civilisations.

[John Doe]

I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.

Looking at it that way, half of Eurasia was pretty bad at defending itself.

 

[joeyc]

Try reading some actual history books - they'll give you a very different perspective.

This coming from the same guy who said that Medieval Russia was more advanced than Medieval Western Europe. LMAO!

I say it for the last time: the core of Russia was in the North, between Moscow and the Baltic. Ukraine and most of Southern Russia was a Turkic thing. There were no Slavs there apart for few proto-Ukrainians in the Kiev area.

Mongols and Tatars killed countless of Muslims in Persia, Russia, Caucasus, Turkey, Levant, Central Asia and India. Various Khanates were fighting each other most of the time, and without them Russia would have never conquered the whole Trans-Caucasus area. I remind you that Georgians invited the Ruskies to repel the endless Turkic Ottoman and Iranian-Azeri raids on Georgia.

 

[Stears555]

It wasn't entirely the fault of the Hungarians that their country was so backward during the Middle Ages. The Mongol invasion resulted in widespread destruction and the loss of nearly half the Hungarian population. I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.

I don't think that most of western Europe was more advanced than Medieval Hungary. Northern Italy and Southern Germany were richer, but other medieval western territories are strongly debatable. I'm not sure medieval France as an average entity was richer ,or eastern part of germany or the skandinavian states (the most backward region of Europe until the 19th century), Spain was also poorer , and southern Italy was not richer than late medieval Hungary. The inland revenues of these kingdoms were and areas were lower than the annual inland revenues of Hungarian monarchs. Even their royal palaces were less luxorious and less gorgeius than the Hungarian.



The mongol invasion was not serious shock for Hungary. 1/3 part of the population was exterminated in the alföld region (which is traditionally the most poor parts of the kingdom) We are not balkanites, who blame the Ottomans for their economic societal infrastructural problems. There are a lot of example, a lot of country which economically emerged from the zero in relative very short time period.

 

[Stears555]

It wasn't entirely the fault of the Hungarians that their country was so backward during the Middle Ages. The Mongol invasion resulted in widespread destruction and the loss of nearly half the Hungarian population. I guess the Hungarians weren't very good at defending themselves.

Medieval Hungary was a great power, wheater you like it or not. We were able to defeat Holy Roman Emperors, Byzantine Emperors many times. We were able to transform the backward and poor WOG balkan states as our vassal states and dependencies. We built up larger armies in the era of the Crusades of the Holy land (See Fifth Crusade) than the English or French Monarchs. And medieval Hungarian gold mines produced the 2/3 gold production of Europe, and 1/3 part of the word gold production.


Florins minted, from 1325, in a newly established mint in Körmöcbánya became soon the popular international means of payment throughout Europe. The reform of the currency and of the whole fiscal system greatly contributed to enrich the treasury. The gold production of mines reached the figure of 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of gold annually.^[61] This was one third of the known worlds total production and five times as much as that of any other European state.^[61][62]

Forxample: King Béla III was also one of the most wealthy monarchs of Europe of his age: his annual revenue was the equivalent of 23 tonnes of pure silver. This exceeded the income of the French king (estimated at 17 tonnes) and was double the receipts of the English Crown.^[137]

Deal with the historic reality.

 

[Stears555]

HEre start the great power:

Lands ruled by Louis the Great of Hungary in the 1370s

 

[Stears555]

 

[Sile]

Hungarians had a Holy Roman Empire...............and your country cannot be backward due to that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

although militarily he was not that good , he lost friuli for good to venice in 1423 and also lost Dalmatia to Venice in 1437. Giving up his casus-belli on Venice via contractual agreements after losing these lands

Clearly Hungary was much stronger than Austria in this point in time

 

[Stears555]

Hungarians had a Holy Roman Empire...............and your country cannot be backward due to that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

although militarily he was not that good , he lost friuli for good to venice in 1423 and also lost Dalmatia to Venice in 1437. Giving up his casus-belli on Venice via contractual agreements after losing these lands

Clearly Hungary was much stronger than Austria in this point in time

Hungary was not part of HRE, king Sigismund got money from some Hungarian barons to bribe the German electoral princes ) That's all.

The only medieval country was Hungary which was forced Venice to affirm vassallage. Venetian Republic became vassal of Louis the Great of Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I_of_Hungary

Wars with Venice and Naples

Main articles: Neapolitan campaigns of Louis the Great, Treaty of Zadar and Peace of Turin

Louis in Zadar. Contemporary embossment.



In 1345, Louis decided to capture the city of Zadar, on the Dalmatian coast. His soldiers however, refused to take the field, since some Hungarian leaders had been corrupted by Venice before the battle.

In the spring of 1346, the Hungarian King arrived with his vast Royal Army of 100,000 men, of whom more than 30,000 were horsemen and men-at-arms and 10,000 were soldiers under Stephen II. The Venetians had attempted to bribe several Hungarian generals, including the Bosnian Ban, who gave away the positions of Hungarian troops. On 1 July 1346, a fierce clash followed, which the Hungarian side eventually won only due to its numerical superiority, leaving some 7,000 casualties on the field. Zadar remained in Venetian hands.
Fonthill vase is the earliest Chinese porcelain object to have reached Europe. It was a Chinese gift for Louis the great.


The mother Queen Elisabeth went to papal residence in Rome, and she spent five tons of gold from her own revenues, in bribes and for propaganda to achieve the marriage between his younger son Andrew, Duke of Calabria and queen Joan I of Naples.^[20] Louis embarked on an expedition against Naples in revenge of the murder of his younger brother Andrew, husband of Joan I of Naples. The circumstances of his death – in a palace conspiracy – suggested the involvement of the Napolitan queen. The news of Prince Andrew's murder created great consternation throughout Europe and especially in Hungary. Since the Pope had failed to bring the guilty to justice, King Louis declared war on Naples and personally led his troops into Italy. Louis entered Italy on 3 November 1347 and, after obtaining the support of many local princes, he entered Benevento early in 1348, much to the applause of the Neapolitan baronage. Louis defeated his enemies in Battle of Capua. Many of the conspirators escaped, but King Louis captured Charles of Durazzo and ordered his execution. However, he was proved to be innocent, and Louis subsequently lost much of his popularity in Italy. He also did not trust the locals who originally supported Andrew’s cause, and they became hostile to him. On 15 January, Queen Joan fled Naples by ship to Provence, soon to be followed by her second husband, Louis of Taranto. Having established himself in Naples with little difficulty, Louis was nevertheless forced to withdraw quickly by the arrival of the Black Death. In his rush to leave ravaged Italy, he appointed two Hungarian officials to hold the regency. They soon lost the support of the local barons and opened the way for the return of Joan and her husband.
Two years later, early in 1350, King Louis landed at Manfredonia. After serials of successful battles, city and castle sieges, he was again able to control the Kingdom of Naples and its capital city. On this Neapolitan journey, Louis the Great carried gold coins equal to Hungary's six, and Europe's two years, of total gold production, with countless silver pieces piled atop them.^{[16][dead link]} However, the Kingdom of Naples was namely a vassal state of the Papacy, and the Hungarian-Neapolitan union would have harmed papal interest. Louis could not become the legal king of Naples without the assent of Pope Clement VI; therefore he soon called off the campaign at the insistence of his exhausted troops and renounced all claims on the Neapolitan crown. Before leaving Italy, he had the papal curia of Avignon begin an inquest into the murder of Andrew, but the papal court found Joan innocent, largely for political reasons, as Joan agreed to ceded her temporal rights over the city of Avignon to the papacy. The conflict with Naples was finally settled in 1381, one year before Louis’ death. Pope Urban VI stripped the royal title from Joan and authorized king Louis to execute his decision. He was too ill to go personally, but his nephew, Charles of Durazzo, with the help of Hungarian gold and troops, seized the throne and killed Joan, who was smothered with pillows, in revenge for the method of Andrew's assassination.^[21]
From 1357 to 1358, Louis waged a new war against Venice for the rule of Dalmatia. After successfully organising an anti-Venetian league, Louis put the cities of Dalmatia to fire and the sword, expelling all the Venetians. By the Treaty of Zara (1358), all of Louis's demands over the Adriatic region were recognized. He immediately built up an Adriatic fleet. After the third Venetian war (1372–1381) Venice had to pay annual tribute to Louis (Peace of Turin, 1381). The Venetians also had to raise the Capetian-Angevin flag on St. Mark's Square on holy days. In 1381 Louis obtained from the Republic of Venice the relics of St. Paul the Hermit, which were taken with great ecclesiastical pomp to the Pauline monastery near Buda.^[22]

 

[Stears555]

Hungarians had a Holy Roman Empire...............and your country cannot be backward due to that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigismund,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

although militarily he was not that good , he lost friuli for good to venice in 1423 and also lost Dalmatia to Venice in 1437. Giving up his casus-belli on Venice via contractual agreements after losing these lands

Clearly Hungary was much stronger than Austria in this point in time

Austria was a little weak princedom before Battle of Mohács. Around 1500AD it had only 1 million population, with 200,000 gold inland revenue (in a good year) Matthias Corvinus' inland revenues reached 1 000 000 in a good year, and itself Kingdom of Hungary with croatia had 5M population. Medieval Hungary and Autrian duchy were simply a very different category.

 

[Stears555]

My new thread: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...novative-in-science-than-Western-Great-Powers

 

[Garrick]

The ratios of attackers (enemies) and defenders are the important. There were much more enemy from orthodox countries than supporter. Forexample, immigrant serbs of Voivodine (Kingdom of Hungary ) were pro-hungarian, but the vast majority of serbs (who didn't live in Voivodina) were anti-Hungarian during the Ottoman wars. Most Orthodox serbs hated more the western christians, than the ottomans.

I don't agree with you. Can you imagine life of ordinary people, non-Muslims, anyway Orthodox or Catholics, etc. under Ottoman occupation, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

Ottoman soldiers at any time could get in non-Muslim village to pick up as tax for non-Muslims (jiyzja) all the people have, left them without chance that people survive in hunger and poverty. Ottoman soldiers at any time could kidnapped young male non-Muslim children earmarking them to become janissaries. Ottoman soldiers at any time could rapped young girls and kidnapped and take as slaves. Etc... and even worse.

About what anti-Hungarian temper someone can speak. Every day people are struggling to survive in the harsh conditions.

Some landlords accustomed to the good life could not handle the difficult living conditions and convert to Islam.

And Hungarians converted to Islam, but in smaller numbers, because Ottoman empire was shorter retained Hungarian regions.

People from Serbia, you can read historic books, especially Austrian, were Austrian and Hungarian allies for centuries, in parts thanks to Serbs, Hungarian areas were shorter under Ottomans.

Can you imagine what would happen that Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs massively convert to Islam, as some other nations did.

Probably about half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate, always keep in mind that Balkan Christian nations paralyzed Ottoman advancement to a certain extent, and therefore submitted immense suffering and sacrifice.

 

[Stears555]

I don't agree with you. Can you imagine life of ordinary people, non-Muslims, anyway Orthodox or Catholics, etc. under Ottoman occupation, Islamic rule and Sharia law.

Ottoman soldiers at any time could get in non-Muslim village to pick up as tax for non-Muslims (jiyzja) all the people have, left them without chance that people survive in hunger and poverty. Ottoman soldiers at any time could kidnapped young male non-Muslim children earmarking them to become janissaries. Ottoman soldiers at any time could rapped young girls and kidnapped and take as slaves. Etc... and even worse.

About what anti-Hungarian temper someone can speak. Every day people are struggling to survive in the harsh conditions.

Some landlords accustomed to the good life could not handle the difficult living conditions and convert to Islam.

And Hungarians converted to Islam, but in smaller numbers, because Ottoman empire was shorter retained Hungarian regions.

People from Serbia, you can read historic books, especially Austrian, were Austrian and Hungarian allies for centuries, in parts thanks to Serbs, Hungarian areas were shorter under Ottomans.

Can you imagine what would happen that Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs massively convert to Islam, as some other nations did.

Probably about half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate, always keep in mind that Balkan Christian nations paralyzed Ottoman advancement to a certain extent, and therefore submitted immense suffering and sacrifice.

I don't think that many hungarians lived in the Ottoman occupied parts of Hungary after the 1570s. Most of them migrated to North and East parts of the kingdom, where the Ottomans did not controll the territories. As I said, Southern slavs were the guards of the occupied castles. Large Balkan population arrived to the territory of present-day Hungary, they were more reliable for Ottomans, than the Hungarians who rebelled their power. After the Great Turkish wars, Christian forces repelled the Serbs and balkantite population from Hungary. Without that repell, there would be a greater Serbia, whose borders can reach Upper Hungary (present -day slovakia).

"half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate" Wrong. They were able to conquer only 1/3 part of Hungary. After the death of Matthias Corvinus, Ottomans used the political chaos and anarchy of Hungary to the maximum. Hungary had the technology and castle-systems which stopped the Ottomans.

 

[Garrick]

I don't think that many hungarians lived in the Ottoman occupied parts of Hungary after the 1570s. Most of them migrated to North and East parts of the kingdom, where the Ottomans did not controll the territories. As I said, Southern slavs were the guards of the occupied castles. Large Balkan population arrived to the territory of present-day Hungary, they were more reliable for Ottomans, than the Hungarians who rebelled their power. After the Great Turkish wars, Christian forces repelled the Serbs and balkantite population from Hungary. Without that repell, there would be a greater Serbia, whose borders can reach Upper Hungary (present -day slovakia).

"half of Europe, including Hungary, today would be part of Caliphate" Wrong. They were able to conquer only 1/3 part of Hungary. After the death of Matthias Corvinus, Ottomans used the political chaos and anarchy of Hungary to the maximum. Hungary had the technology and castle-systems which stopped the Ottomans.

Historical evidence is that Serbs were Austrian and Hungarian allies for centuries. And they had big sacrifice and suffering due it. Can you imagine what a horrible Ottoman revenge after Austrian/Hungarian defeat and withdrawal in territories in which Serbs lived and fought for Austrians and Hungarians against Ottomans.

You can see a lot of battles and wars for centuries where Serbs were on the side of Austria and Hungary against Ottoman Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Serbia

...
By the way, Hungarians and Serbs have very good relations for centuries, and before the Ottomans Hungarian and Serbian rulers had blood ties.

...
Hungary today is a modern, beautiful, developed Central European country, and the capital Budapest is among the most attractive in Central Europe. I hope that will be built high speed train Budapest Belgrade, which will contribute better traffic connection between our two countries, and the people of Serbia will go to Hungary more frequent because they have a lot to see, and be nice to spend.

Why I write this, because success of Western Europe was partly based on a much better traffic connectivity and communications that is lacking eastern and southern regions. With better traffic would be enabled better communication and we could understand better each other. Can you imagine modern speed train from Germany to Greece, over Hungary and Serbia. Extraordinary.

 

[Aberdeen]

This coming from the same guy who said that Medieval Russia was more advanced than Medieval Western Europe. LMAO!

I say it for the last time: the core of Russia was in the North, between Moscow and the Baltic. Ukraine and most of Southern Russia was a Turkic thing. There were no Slavs there apart for few proto-Ukrainians in the Kiev area.

Mongols and Tatars killed countless of Muslims in Persia, Russia, Caucasus, Turkey, Levant, Central Asia and India. Various Khanates were fighting each other most of the time, and without them Russia would have never conquered the whole Trans-Caucasus area. I remind you that Georgians invited the Ruskies to repel the endless Turkic Ottoman and Iranian-Azeri raids on Georgia.

You seem to be living in just as much of a fantasy world as your buddy. You can't just invent history and expect anyone to take you seriously. Bye.

And if anyone wants to actually understand why Kievian Rus was the centre of Russia prior to the Mongol invasions, I'd recommend "Medieval Russia" by Janet Martin.

 

[Sile]

Hungary was not part of HRE, king Sigismund got money from some Hungarian barons to bribe the German electoral princes ) That's all.

The only medieval country was Hungary which was forced Venice to affirm vassallage. Venetian Republic became vassal of Louis the Great of Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_I_of_Hungary

Wars with Venice and Naples

Main articles: Neapolitan campaigns of Louis the Great, Treaty of Zadar and Peace of Turin

Louis in Zadar. Contemporary embossment.



In 1345, Louis decided to capture the city of Zadar, on the Dalmatian coast. His soldiers however, refused to take the field, since some Hungarian leaders had been corrupted by Venice before the battle.

In the spring of 1346, the Hungarian King arrived with his vast Royal Army of 100,000 men, of whom more than 30,000 were horsemen and men-at-arms and 10,000 were soldiers under Stephen II. The Venetians had attempted to bribe several Hungarian generals, including the Bosnian Ban, who gave away the positions of Hungarian troops. On 1 July 1346, a fierce clash followed, which the Hungarian side eventually won only due to its numerical superiority, leaving some 7,000 casualties on the field. Zadar remained in Venetian hands.
Fonthill vase is the earliest Chinese porcelain object to have reached Europe. It was a Chinese gift for Louis the great.


The mother Queen Elisabeth went to papal residence in Rome, and she spent five tons of gold from her own revenues, in bribes and for propaganda to achieve the marriage between his younger son Andrew, Duke of Calabria and queen Joan I of Naples.^[20] Louis embarked on an expedition against Naples in revenge of the murder of his younger brother Andrew, husband of Joan I of Naples. The circumstances of his death – in a palace conspiracy – suggested the involvement of the Napolitan queen. The news of Prince Andrew's murder created great consternation throughout Europe and especially in Hungary. Since the Pope had failed to bring the guilty to justice, King Louis declared war on Naples and personally led his troops into Italy. Louis entered Italy on 3 November 1347 and, after obtaining the support of many local princes, he entered Benevento early in 1348, much to the applause of the Neapolitan baronage. Louis defeated his enemies in Battle of Capua. Many of the conspirators escaped, but King Louis captured Charles of Durazzo and ordered his execution. However, he was proved to be innocent, and Louis subsequently lost much of his popularity in Italy. He also did not trust the locals who originally supported Andrew’s cause, and they became hostile to him. On 15 January, Queen Joan fled Naples by ship to Provence, soon to be followed by her second husband, Louis of Taranto. Having established himself in Naples with little difficulty, Louis was nevertheless forced to withdraw quickly by the arrival of the Black Death. In his rush to leave ravaged Italy, he appointed two Hungarian officials to hold the regency. They soon lost the support of the local barons and opened the way for the return of Joan and her husband.
Two years later, early in 1350, King Louis landed at Manfredonia. After serials of successful battles, city and castle sieges, he was again able to control the Kingdom of Naples and its capital city. On this Neapolitan journey, Louis the Great carried gold coins equal to Hungary's six, and Europe's two years, of total gold production, with countless silver pieces piled atop them.^{[16][dead link]} However, the Kingdom of Naples was namely a vassal state of the Papacy, and the Hungarian-Neapolitan union would have harmed papal interest. Louis could not become the legal king of Naples without the assent of Pope Clement VI; therefore he soon called off the campaign at the insistence of his exhausted troops and renounced all claims on the Neapolitan crown. Before leaving Italy, he had the papal curia of Avignon begin an inquest into the murder of Andrew, but the papal court found Joan innocent, largely for political reasons, as Joan agreed to ceded her temporal rights over the city of Avignon to the papacy. The conflict with Naples was finally settled in 1381, one year before Louis’ death. Pope Urban VI stripped the royal title from Joan and authorized king Louis to execute his decision. He was too ill to go personally, but his nephew, Charles of Durazzo, with the help of Hungarian gold and troops, seized the throne and killed Joan, who was smothered with pillows, in revenge for the method of Andrew's assassination.^[21]
From 1357 to 1358, Louis waged a new war against Venice for the rule of Dalmatia. After successfully organising an anti-Venetian league, Louis put the cities of Dalmatia to fire and the sword, expelling all the Venetians. By the Treaty of Zara (1358), all of Louis's demands over the Adriatic region were recognized. He immediately built up an Adriatic fleet. After the third Venetian war (1372–1381) Venice had to pay annual tribute to Louis (Peace of Turin, 1381). The Venetians also had to raise the Capetian-Angevin flag on St. Mark's Square on holy days. In 1381 Louis obtained from the Republic of Venice the relics of St. Paul the Hermit, which were taken with great ecclesiastical pomp to the Pauline monastery near Buda.^[22]

Since Venice owned Dalmatia prior to the year 1000 the issue was hungary wanted these lands so an on-off war of 400 years resulted

1105

Siege of Zara and occupation of Dalmatia

Kingdom of Hungary

Dalmatian cities Venice

Hungarian victory

1115–1119

Hungarian – Venetian wars

Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary

Hungarian defeat

1124–1125

Hungarian – Venetian war

Kingdom of Hungary

Republic of Venice

Hungarian defeat

1202

Siege of Zara

soldiers of the fourth crusade Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary

Hungarian defeat

1243

Siege of Zara

Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary

Hungarian defeat

1345–1358

Hungarian–Venetian War

Kingdom of Hungary

Republic of Venice

Treaty of Zadar

1411–1433

Hungarian–Venetian War

Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary Milan

Dalmatia became part of Venice

same war as above 1411-1422 Hungarian-Venetian wars ...........Friuli became part of Venetian republic

clearly Hungary was a powerful state, but its downfall was not the Ottoman or Venetian or any other wars , but the inability to stop the bavarians to create the state of Austria in 998AD.

 

[Garrick]

The Orthodoxy in every country remained on the level of its surroundings due to its rigid isolation.

The cultural economical legal infrastructural development of orthodox balkan slavs was always very slow before the Otoman conquest , due to the wide spread late-nomadism (high ratio of mountain shepherds) in their societies.

Do you really believe that Orthodox Balkan and Asia minor countries were retarded before Ottoman invasion?

...

For example: Constantinople, and Novo Brdo.


Constantinople was considered to be the most wealthiest and greatest city in Europe and beyond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

Do you really think that people of that time could create such impressive city if they were "primitive".

These regions were much more developed both materially and culturally than you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Brdo_Fortress
In Novo Brdo (Serbia) and other towns in Serbia and Bulgaria Saxon miners (Upper Harz and Westphalia etc.) came to work as foreign workers.
And in medieval times people went to foreign countries as workforce.

Interestingly, one Serb with I1 haplogroup found that his origin is from German Saxons.
...
Balkan Orthodox areas before Ottoman invasion were developed as other areas in Europe, the story that they was retarded is just stereotype, and nothing more.

 

[Stears555]

Since Venice owned Dalmatia prior to the year 1000 the issue was hungary wanted these lands so an on-off war of 400 years resulted

1105

Siege of Zara and occupation of Dalmatia

Kingdom of Hungary

Dalmatian cities Venice

Hungarian victory

1115–1119

Hungarian – Venetian wars

Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary

Hungarian defeat

1124–1125

Hungarian – Venetian war

Kingdom of Hungary

Republic of Venice

Hungarian defeat

1202

Siege of Zara

soldiers of the fourth crusade Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary

Hungarian defeat

1243

Siege of Zara

Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary

Hungarian defeat

1345–1358

Hungarian–Venetian War

Kingdom of Hungary

Republic of Venice

Treaty of Zadar

1411–1433

Hungarian–Venetian War

Republic of Venice

Kingdom of Hungary Milan

Dalmatia became part of Venice

same war as above 1411-1422 Hungarian-Venetian wars ...........Friuli became part of Venetian republic

clearly Hungary was a powerful state, but its downfall was not the Ottoman or Venetian or any other wars , but the inability to stop the bavarians to create the state of Austria in 998AD.

How many was entirelly Venetian Hungarian wars? When Venetians did not asked foreign (Ottoman, or German) help? How many was real Hungarian war (ie: Not only Croatian southern Hungarian forces were enganged but the full Hungarian royal army? Venite became vassal of Louis the great at the end of the game. Hungarian forces captured half of Italy, the great Northern cities celebrated Louis as their own hero.



You forget to mention that King Ladislaus and Coloman captured Dalmatia . King Béla II defeated the venetians again, and recaptured dalmatia. Bela III also expelled the venetians and captured dalmatia.

Can you prove that Austria was a signifficant state before battle of Mohács? Its population was tiny 1 million in 1500 AD. Its inland revenues were very low.

 

[Stears555]

Do you really believe that Orthodox Balkan and Asia minor countries were retarded before Ottoman invasion?

...

For example: Constantinople, and Novo Brdo.


Constantinople was considered to be the most wealthiest and greatest city in Europe and beyond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople

Do you really think that people of that time could create such impressive city if they were "primitive".

These regions were much more developed both materially and culturally than you think.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novo_Brdo_Fortress
In Novo Brdo (Serbia) and other towns in Serbia and Bulgaria Saxon miners (Upper Harz and Westphalia etc.) came to work as foreign workers.
And in medieval times people went to foreign countries as workforce.

Interestingly, one Serb with I1 haplogroup found that his origin is from German Saxons.
...
Balkan Orthodox areas before Ottoman invasion were developed as other areas in Europe, the story that they was retarded is just stereotype, and nothing more.

You try to prove that Constantinalples was more developed than the freshly estabilished states of the west in early medieval age. But who debated it? Its architecture was post-classic ugly and primitive, if you compare it with classic roman architecture.

Many British and French miners worked in african mines during the colonial times, but it did not mean that africa was more developed than France and Britain in the 19th century. The material culture and technology of slavic balkan states in the 13th century was similar to the early medieval western European level. Very primitive. What will be your next weird fairy tale? Was africa more developed than its European colonizers? )))

 

[Garrick]

You try to prove that Constantinalples was more developed than the freshly estabilished states of the west in early medieval age. But who debated it? Its architecture was post-classic ugly and primitive, if you compare it with classic roman architecture.

Many British and French miners worked in african mines during the colonial times, but it did not mean that africa was more developed than France and Britain in the 19th century. The material culture and technology of slavic balkan states in the 13th century was similar to the early medieval western European level. Very primitive. What will be your next weird fairy tale? Was africa more developed than its European colonizers? )))

Who talk about 19. century?

In Europe in 1000 year Gross domestic product per capita was about $400, northern and south areas were similar.

In China then GDP per capita was higher (about $450).

About 1000 years (from 400 to 1400) GDP per capita in China was higher than in Europe.

Formal split between Roman Catholic and Orthodox church was 1054 due to political reasons.

Western Europe begin to grow after 1300, Balkans and Asia minor lagg due to Ottoman occupation.

And you didn't answer about #53.

 

[Sile]

How many was entirelly Venetian Hungarian wars? When Venetians did not asked foreign (Ottoman, or German) help? How many was real Hungarian war (ie: Not only Croatian southern Hungarian forces were enganged but the full Hungarian royal army? Venite became vassal of Louis the great at the end of the game. Hungarian forces captured half of Italy, the great Northern cities celebrated Louis as their own hero.



You forget to mention that King Ladislaus and Coloman captured Dalmatia . King Béla II defeated the venetians again, and recaptured dalmatia. Bela III also expelled the venetians and captured dalmatia.

Can you prove that Austria was a signifficant state before battle of Mohács? Its population was tiny 1 million in 1500 AD. Its inland revenues were very low.

i can only find this
The fleet of Venice, commanded by Doge Ordelafo Faliero, invaded Dalmatia in August 1115.^[116][117] The Venetians occupied the Dalmatian islands and some of the coastal cities but could not take Zadar and Biograd na Moru.^[116] By that time, Coloman was gravely ill.^[118] The symptoms recorded in the Illuminated Chronicle indicate a serious otitis, which caused encephalitis.^[111] Before his death, he "instructed his son and his great men that after his death they should take vengeance on Russia for the injury done to him"^[119] during his campaign of 1099.^[118] Upon his councillor's advice, he also had Álmos, who had taken refuge in the monastery of Dömös, imprisoned.^[120]

Let me know which armies never hired any mercenaries from other states..............the answer would be none


this italian was hungary's best general at the time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipo_of_Ozora