Genome of an Iron age Briton

True, there were no signs of major invasion, battles, scorges. More like peaceful settlements living together. Similar coexistence of two cultures was noted in Poland when Goths were moving south to Black Sea.

I'm not sure how this is possible that locals can agree for strangers to settle close by. Perhaps in certain time periods population density is not big, strangers come and cut forest for their village and new fields, not taking agrarian land from locals?

Maybe low density has something to do with it but in the historical example I'm aware of, peaceful settlements by foreigners were accepted either because they brought a new skill or a better way to do something (such as making pottery or weaving) or they were operating a trading post trading goods from their country of origin that the locals were particularly anxious to acquire. One example I know of was a fairly significant settlement of Flemish weavers in East Anglia in England during the early modern period.
 
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Is "Southwest English" the same as "Cornish" here?

I don't know. I don't know the source of the "Cornish" data that was posted, and I don't know how that would compare with the "Cornish" or otherwise SW English samples of the British project.

Given that the folks at the People of the British Isles project have properly screened samples, they would be the ones who could do the best comparisons, yes?

A lot will also depend on what the genomes of the "Anglo-Saxons" show, who, the authors stated in their abstract, are closer to the modern British.

In the meantime, just for general analysis purposes, I would think that it might be informative if someone ran this sample through someone else's calculators. The DIY software is available. I'm not a fan of the Eurogenes calculators in general, and of that one in particular, partly because it was obviously done using the Hellenthal et al populations. I have yet to find out where those samples were taken. If someone knows, perhaps they could post here. The only clue I have is that they mention a study on, if my memory serves me, cystic fibrosis. In my experience, doctors don't ask a patient if all four grandparents came from the same area when they collect a sample. Perhaps in this case the researchers did get the information. I don't know. I do know that the southern Italian samples on that run plot very strangely. What I also know is that two studies on Italy are useless because the questions were not asked.

As to the difference between the Lazaridis EEF/WHG/ANE figures for the modern English and the calculator figures for this Iron Age sample, there are some differences. I don't place total faith on these "calculator" results. They are internally inconsistent and inconsistent with the academic results. However, for the purposes of discussion, let's take them at face value. If it was admixture post Iron Age which caused the change, it would have to have been some admixture with a slightly more "southern" orientation. I have difficulty imagining the Anglo-Saxons as more EEF. The Normans might have been, but how large was their input?

Or, is it because of admixture into the English "heartland" from the periphery of the Islands? I don't see how it could be from very recent migration from Scotland, given that their EEF numbers are even lower than the Iron Age sample. I don't know what properly sourced samples from, say, far western Ireland or Wales would show.

Which leads me to the fact that as Aberdeen suggested, if I understand him correctly, by the time of the pre-Roman and pre-Saxon "Britons", there might have already been slight differences east/west as well as perhaps north/south in the British Isles. Could it be that the far western inhabitants of Iron Age Britain had more of that kind of a signature? We would need ancient dna from there, yes? Absent that, which modern population could serve...perhaps far western Ireland or northern Wales as I mentioned above? I would leave that to experts in British genetics.

Just generally, if I can make an analogy with Italy, which I know much better, I would be very surprised if all the "Indo-European" groups, largely labeled "Italics" who came into the peninsula from north of the Alps were absolutely identical genetically, not to mention people like the Ligures, for example, who may also have been Indo-Europeans.
 
the notes state iron-age britain ..........thats from 800BC to 100AD

Anglo-saxons did not arrive in britain until 450AD

years in question 2500-1800 Yrs ago = 500BC- 200AD

1 - it cannot be angels, saxons , jutes or frisians

2- it can be celtic belgae who arrived in 200BC

3- mtdna marker is noted as origins in scandinavian

most likely the person belongs to an early celtic migration
I agree it could be Belgae. I wonder if we might find any similar here, via Fir Bolg? [not the mythical version of course]
 
I agree it could be Belgae. I wonder if we might find any similar here, via Fir Bolg? [not the mythical version of course]

I know some historians have theorized that the Fir Bolg might be Belgaic, on the basis of a presumed similarity of name, I think. But my own theory, based on the Irish myth about the Fir Bolg being overthrown by a warrior race, is that if they existed in real life as well as myth, they would have been Neolithic Irish, with more EEF than the later Irish.

If we want a modern proxy for pre-Roman Celtic inhabitants of Britain, I would suggest that we choose Gaelic speaking people from western Ireland and western Scotland - if they still speak Gaelic today, they probably don't have as much Viking invader blood as some Irish and Scots do - just my theory.
 
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You missed the 25% Eastern Euro on Motala, thats from 6000 B.C. long before any Indo Europeans existed. I think whats more telling is that he has a good chunk of West_Med admixture which definitely came from the farmers. The West Asian bit is also interesting too because you don't see that in ANY of the other ancient samples. Also, Stuttgart is a Neolithic Farmer...... Motala/Loschbour are HGs FYI

'westmed' is not proved to be from first farmers only: we don't know the composition of southern Europe just before Neolithic revolution and colonization -
surely some impus of 'proto-meds' reached S-W Europe before Neolithic at least OUR Neolithic (maybe N-Africa had some advance? I'm not cleaver enough on this matter...
but Mugem "mesolothical" people had already some southern imput, whatever the road taken by the concerned ancestors - I think 'west-meds' were strongly reinforced by neolithic advance (the one we know of) but they were there already before
that said, someones said a germanic population (small?) were in Britain at celtic times - the so called "danes tombs" in East England could be a proof of it - we don't know what part of the germanic continuum they were coming from - this concerning the question of 'eastern-euro' - that said too, the Iron Age celtic elite surely contained a bit of eastern european components
 
on this analysis
 
on this analysis, the I-A man shows no more, rather a bit less links with 'west-med' than Cornishes and Kentmen, and at same time, less 'baltic' than them, less 'westasian' than them, and the same 'atlantic' score - at contrary it shows more 'northsea', what could and germanic, and celtic -
as 'baltic' is lower, I think the 'eastern-euro' has no links with North Europe in them - so I would say: more "I-E" than the today British people, less "others" , but as a whole very close to them sharing with them and partly with Loschbour, ancient DNA of Europe of Hunters-Gatherers from North or West - I would say: CELTIC more than any other kind, more than Germanic -
 
to ANGELA
YES we can imagine the western Brittons were a bit less "celtic" than the eastern Brittons before the Anglo-Saxons invasion -
and too more pre-BBs, Neolithical or not in West, and less BB than in East -
the Urnfields period could have send some others people in S-E Britain, before Iron Age (according to old scholars, Urnfields was accompanied by a lot of people moves, everywhere in Europe, and not only a cultural wave, even if these views are contradicted by new scholars, whatever the truth - it seems a population from Switzerland came into S-E Britain at these times, maybe already celtic (as BBs could have been, from an other stam) -
&: physically, the Belgae elite was almost identical to the other celtic elites, easily distinguished from Germanics! I say that beacuse Belgae take foot in E Britain -
 
to ANGELA
YES we can imagine the western Brittons were a bit less "celtic" than the eastern Brittons before the Anglo-Saxons invasion -
and too more pre-BBs, Neolithical or not in West, and less BB than in East -
the Urnfields period could have send some others people in S-E Britain, before Iron Age (according to old scholars, Urnfields was accompanied by a lot of people moves, everywhere in Europe, and not only a cultural wave, even if these views are contradicted by new scholars, whatever the truth - it seems a population from Switzerland came into S-E Britain at these times, maybe already celtic (as BBs could have been, from an other stam) -
&: physically, the Belgae elite was almost identical to the other celtic elites, easily distinguished from Germanics! I say that beacuse Belgae take foot in E Britain -

can be belgae , but he has iberian markers .............can fit with a Roman legionaire from iberia
 
4 of the 5 britons


The data indicate that ERS389795 was male. The Y-SNP calls don’t show which Y haplogroup ERS389795 belonged to, but they do show that he didn’t belong to haplogroups E, G, I1, J, R1a1, or T1a.
The mt-SNP calls show that ERS389795 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup K1a1.


The data indicate that ERS389796 was female. The mt-SNP calls show that she belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup H2a2b1.

The data indicate that ERS389797 was female. The mt-SNP calls show that she belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup K1a4a1a2.

The data indicate that ERS389798 was male. It can be inferred from the Y-SNP calls that he belonged to Y haplogroup R1b, and he may have belonged to R1b1a2a1a2c1g2-FGC3903/S5201/Y2890.
The mt-SNP calls show that ERS389798 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup H1ag1.
 
The data indicate that ERS389795 was male. The Y-SNP calls don’t show which Y haplogroup ERS389795 belonged to, but they do show that he didn’t belong to haplogroups E, G, I1, J, R1a1, or T1a.

The mt-SNP calls show that ERS389795 belonged to mitochondrial haplogroup K1a1.
ERS389795 only had 0.08% of the K12b Gedrosia component, which indicates that he didn’t belong to Y haplogroup R1b. The modern-day English have on average 10.6% of the Gedrosia component.

So ERS389795 was not R1b or admixed with R1b people. This basically has to be our Anglo-Saxon then and gives us a lot of interesting implications about Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage. Looks like that Anglo-Saxon mask might need to come off the R1b page.
 
Wait a minute...is ERS389795 the sample whose results were posted upthread, and is he actually one of the Anglo-Saxon samples or not? Was he incorrectly labelled an Iron Age Celt upthread?

It obviously makes a huge difference. If those are the results of an Anglo-Saxon, then all this convoluted reasoning was invalid. Plus, no wonder he looked like a Scandinavian.

IF these are now the proper attribution, then it all makes a lot more sense...no convoluted reasoning required.

ERS389798 -Iron Age Kelt R1b
K12b

  • 39.04% North_European
  • 32.43% Atlantic_Med
  • 9.12% Caucasus
  • 5.96% Gedrosia
  • 3.54% Sub_Saharan
  • 2.90% South_Asian
  • 2.73% East_African
  • 2.63% Northwest_African
  • 1.63% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.02% Siberian
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian

dv3

  • 59.73% West_European
  • 24.91% Mediterranean
  • 8.22% East_European
  • 5.41% Palaeo_African
  • 1.69% Neo_African
  • 0.03% Northwest_African
  • 0.00% East_African
  • 0.00% Northeast_Asian
  • 0.00% South_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.00% West_Asian

ERS389795-Anglo Saxon
K12b

  • 49.89% North_European
  • 30.08% Atlantic_Med
  • 9.78% Caucasus
  • 3.63% East_Asian
  • 3.19% Sub_Saharan
  • 1.31% Northwest_African
  • 1.16% Siberian
  • 0.79% East_African
  • 0.08% Gedrosia
  • 0.07% South_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.00% Southwest_Asian
dv3

  • 41.46% West_European
  • 24.44% East_European
  • 17.31% Mediterranean
  • 5.55% Northwest_African
  • 3.17% South_Asian
  • 2.69% Palaeo_African
  • 1.70% West_Asian
  • 1.21% Northeast_Asian
  • 0.99% Southeast_Asian
  • 0.85% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.63% Neo_African
  • 0.00% East_African
  • Ed. to change the K-12b results for the Iron Age Celt. While I can see why, in the abstract, the authors said the samples are all broadly north European, I think there are come significant differences.
 
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Also, if these are now properly attributed, the following EEF/WHG/ANE figures are for the Anglo-Saxon:
EEF: 44
WHG: 40
ANE: 16

It will be very interesting to see the scores for the Iron Age Kelt and if they go some way toward explaining the current scores for English people.

This also would make sense with the correlation of this Angle/Saxon with the West Scots, since, in so far as I can remember from reading some things from the People of the British Isles project, there was a lot of Norwegian migration along both Scottish coasts but particularly along the west?

If anyone has a Cornish or other southwest British genome handy, it would be interesting to get results for that person on these two runs.
 
@Angela

Those aren't the correct K12b results for the Celt, ERS389798 , these are the results


  • 39.04% North_European
  • 32.43% Atlantic_Med
  • 9.12% Caucasus
  • 5.96% Gedrosia
  • 3.54% Sub_Saharan
  • 2.90% South_Asian
  • 2.73% East_African
  • 2.63% Northwest_African
  • 1.63% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.02% Siberian
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
 
k12b results I am having fun with. For the k12b calculator it seems that the Gedrosia admixture is the R1 signature in Europe (And to a lesser extent Siberian). The Caucasus admixture is the Farmer signature in Europe. R1 overlaps with Hunter Gatherers in North European Admixture, Farmers overlap with Hunter Gatherers in Atlantic_Med admixture. The more North European the more pure HG it seems. It looks like our Anglo Saxon is a Farmer/Hunter Gatherer Hybrid, which makes sense as mtDNA K came into Europe with the Neolithic Farmers. An early educated guess would be that Anglo Saxons were a group descended from a hybrid genetic makeup of North European Hunter Gatherers and Early Neolithic farmers with a minor Indo European contribution (Siberian & Trace Gedrosia) probably from the R1a corded ware era. Makes sense as the Anglo Saxon homeland (Schleiswig Holestein) is on the fringe of the Corded Ware Area, but the heartland of the FunnelBeaker culture who were a mixed HG/Farmer group.

FIBiukV.jpg
 
@Angela

Those aren't the correct K12b results for the Celt, ERS389798 , these are the results


  • 39.04% North_European
  • 32.43% Atlantic_Med
  • 9.12% Caucasus
  • 5.96% Gedrosia
  • 3.54% Sub_Saharan
  • 2.90% South_Asian
  • 2.73% East_African
  • 2.63% Northwest_African
  • 1.63% Southwest_Asian
  • 0.02% Siberian
  • 0.00% East_Asian
  • 0.00% Southeast_Asian
]

Thanks for the correction, Motzart. I edited my prior post.

It's late and my brain is fried...could you do me a favor and just check that it's now correct? If I don't here from you I'll assume the figures are correct in so far, at least, as this internet blogger is concerned. Thank you. :)

Btwy, is the EEF/WHG/ANE calculator that the Eurogenes put out available somewhere so the "Celt" can be run through it?
 
@Angela

Looks good! I think that old EEF/WHG/ANE calculator is outdated now so not worth much
 
As a supplement to my other post, here is the population reference for k12b
RGCSJEg.png
 
So ERS389795 was not R1b or admixed with R1b people. This basically has to be our Anglo-Saxon then and gives us a lot of interesting implications about Anglo-Saxon genetic heritage. Looks like that Anglo-Saxon mask might need to come off the R1b page.

Gedorsia doesn't equal R1b. Components from admixtures are just allele frequencies. If you made me an admixture people all over west Eurasia would score in it, that doesn't mean I'm an ancient population. That guy who didn't score in Gedorsia when Geneticker tested him belonged to R1b-L11, his Y SNPs speak for themselves. Don't take Geneticker's theories seriously.
 
He posted the final one and he also posted the context

Iron Age Britons ( Celts )

ERS389798
ERS389797

Anglo Saxons

ERS389799
ERS389796
ERS389795
 

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