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Thread: M223 - Upgraded to 32 Markers. Help identifying which one I belong to?

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    M223 - Upgraded to 32 Markers. Help identifying which one I belong to?

    Dear everyone,

    I recently availed myself of upgrading to 32 markers at a discounted price over at FTDNA. I haven't received 7 of my markers yet, as apparently those are still pending, but I have 25 of them present.

    Might anyone help me identify which group of M223 I belong to?

    DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464
    14 23 15 10 15-15 11 13 11 13 12 29 16 8-10 11 11 26 15 20 29 11-13-14-14

    Those are the results.

    Thanks kindly.

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    Cullen's Predictor is already placing you squarely in the "Roots" STR cluster. Let's wait for the full result before talking SNPs. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to join FTDNA's M223 Project.

    P.S. Have you gotten your work on the philosophy of time published yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Cullen's Predictor is already placing you squarely in the "Roots" STR cluster. Let's wait for the full result before talking SNPs. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to join FTDNA's M223 Project.

    P.S. Have you gotten your work on the philosophy of time published yet?
    I know this is really off topic, but I've always been interested in the idea of time, even though I'm too scientifically illiterate to understand books such as "A Brief History of Time". My theory is that time is a unit of measurement rather than a fourth dimension, since every unit of finite time is either a division or multiple of either the Earth's rotation around its axis or the Earth's rotation around the Sun, so I see "infinite time" as a situation where there isn't a suitable yardstick to measure with. If my concept if wrong, nobody so far has been able to tell me why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Cullen's Predictor is already placing you squarely in the "Roots" STR cluster. Let's wait for the full result before talking SNPs. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to join FTDNA's M223 Project.

    P.S. Have you gotten your work on the philosophy of time published yet?
    Thanks, my good sir! I will hit you guys up with more info as it becomes available. I may have to call up to see whether something is wrong with the last 7 markers or something, as it says "complete" even with "lab results pending".

    As for my philosophy of time work: Yes and no. Yes in that it was my master's thesis (on route to a Ph.D.), no in that I am going to parse it up and expand sections for the sake of getting it published in journals. So far, I haven't gotten to do that project yet, though I am intending to soon.

    This reminds me: I had an important thought about time the other day and now I can't remember it. Damnit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I know this is really off topic, but I've always been interested in the idea of time, even though I'm too scientifically illiterate to understand books such as "A Brief History of Time". My theory is that time is a unit of measurement rather than a fourth dimension, since every unit of finite time is either a division or multiple of either the Earth's rotation around its axis or the Earth's rotation around the Sun, so I see "infinite time" as a situation where there isn't a suitable yardstick to measure with. If my concept if wrong, nobody so far has been able to tell me why.
    You're mistaking the measurement for the phenomena, the yardstick for the yard. "An hour" is a unit of measurement; time is a phenomena that allows for there to -be- hours (and for to -be- change, even though it is not identical with change).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    You're mistaking the measurement for the phenomena, the yardstick for the yard. "An hour" is a unit of measurement; time is a phenomena that allows for there to -be- hours (and for to -be- change, even though it is not identical with change).
    So, how do you prove that time exists independently of the units we use to measure it, and what is it? A kilogram is a unit of measurement of weight, but we can demonstrate that mass exists to be measured. What is time? Yes, I know - time is motion through space. But that isn't a description of an independent phenomenon.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    JFWR, I don't understand why you would order an Y-STR-32 test to know your deep subclade, when the most reliable way is through a SNP test like Geno 2.0 (which is about the same price as the FTDNA 37 markers STR test and also gives you mtDNA and autosomal DNA for free).
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    And as per maciano stated................you can then transfer the natgeno2 results to ftdna for free .

    And from end of September 2014 , all positive and all negatives from natgeno2 transfers are noted/shown in your ftdna tree
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    JFWR, I don't understand why you would order an Y-STR-32 test to know your deep subclade, when the most reliable way is through a SNP test like Geno 2.0 (which is about the same price as the FTDNA 37 markers STR test and also gives you mtDNA and autosomal DNA for free).
    I2 is different than R1b. 32 markers can point you to very specific SNPs to test, including plenty that aren't tested via Geno 2.0. And he gets the additional benefits that come with STR testing, like matching other individuals at a higher resolution than SNP testing. I think he went the right direction with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    So, how do you prove that time exists independently of the units we use to measure it, and what is it? A kilogram is a unit of measurement of weight, but we can demonstrate that mass exists to be measured. What is time? Yes, I know - time is motion through space. But that isn't a description of an independent phenomenon.
    You cannot measure a unit which has no basis in reality. Temperature reflects actual movement of particles, for instance, and distance measures extension. Time measures temporal extension, that is to say, the distance between states along a dimension of time.

    Were time not to exist, the very change which allows us to distinguish between moments would not be possible. Time is not equivalent to change, but allows change to exist.

    Think of it like this: There'd be no "up" if we had only two dimensions of space. Likewise, if there was no time, change would be impossible. But time must necessary exist apart from any change, in order that change can occur.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    JFWR, I don't understand why you would order an Y-STR-32 test to know your deep subclade, when the most reliable way is through a SNP test like Geno 2.0 (which is about the same price as the FTDNA 37 markers STR test and also gives you mtDNA and autosomal DNA for free).
    Geno 2.0 does that now? Because when I had participated in the Genographic project several years ago, I got only a crappy y-12 test for my trouble and money.

    I independently did a MTDNA test. I've never done autosomal.

    Wow. Way to change the process on us, National Geo. I am displeased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I2 is different than R1b. 32 markers can point you to very specific SNPs to test, including plenty that aren't tested via Geno 2.0. And he gets the additional benefits that come with STR testing, like matching other individuals at a higher resolution than SNP testing. I think he went the right direction with this.
    I am glad I didn't entirely waste my money, then. Autosomal would have been interesting, though I was primarily interested in expanding on my Y-12 test that gave me preliminary results. Nat Geo used to provide virtually nothing, as you may recall, and I didn't even think to try their Genographic 2.0 scheme.

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    So, the last 12 markers finally came in!

    Marker DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438
    Value 11 10 19-20 16 15 19 18 32-35 12 10

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    So the bad news is that Cullen's Predictor is now a little less sure that you're in the Roots cluster, although it's still over 50%. You also have nobody closer than 3 steps away from you on YSearch. Fortunately your closest matches include a Thomas family from Cornwall, hence a geographical match, and another 3 step away Thomas (probably the same family but not 100% certain) is already classified at the M223 Project in the Roots 1 group. See your fairly close match at kit number 70989.

    I'd still recommend joining the M223 Project, although if you'd rather not, I can say that they'll probably start by recommending you to upgrade to 67 STRs and/or test SNPs L1229 (to confirm Roots) and Z2054 (to confirm Roots 1).

    Funny that you should match a Thomas family from Mullion. I've spent far too much time trying to knock down a brick wall in my genealogy at a point where I reach a Thomas family in Mullion. I could be related to the Thomases that you match. Or not, because I've hit a brick wall there. The surname "Thomas" in Cornwall is like the surname "Jones" in Wales.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So the bad news is that Cullen's Predictor is now a little less sure that you're in the Roots cluster, although it's still over 50%. You also have nobody closer than 3 steps away from you on YSearch. Fortunately your closest matches include a Thomas family from Cornwall, hence a geographical match, and another 3 step away Thomas (probably the same family but not 100% certain) is already classified at the M223 Project in the Roots 1 group. See your fairly close match at kit number 70989.

    I'd still recommend joining the M223 Project, although if you'd rather not, I can say that they'll probably start by recommending you to upgrade to 67 STRs and/or test SNPs L1229 (to confirm Roots) and Z2054 (to confirm Roots 1).

    Funny that you should match a Thomas family from Mullion. I've spent far too much time trying to knock down a brick wall in my genealogy at a point where I reach a Thomas family in Mullion. I could be related to the Thomases that you match. Or not, because I've hit a brick wall there. The surname "Thomas" in Cornwall is like the surname "Jones" in Wales.
    Thanks kindly!

    I shall have to join the project ASAP if I have not already. In fact, I think I may have already. Let me check now...

    Yep. I'm there.

    I shall wait for another good sale for 67 or the specific SNPS to clarify that.

    Question: Why is it called "roots"? Is this the root stem of the clade, as it were? Obviously, continental and isles is somewhat more self-explanatory.

    It seems us Cornish folk are related after all. That's good. Confirmation of history is always pleasing in that regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    I shall have to join the project ASAP if I have not already. In fact, I think I may have already. Let me check now...

    Yep. I'm there.
    Ah, "ungrouped," I suppose they just haven't gotten around to grouping you yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    Question: Why is it called "roots"? Is this the root stem of the clade, as it were? Obviously, continental and isles is somewhat more self-explanatory.
    I think when Nordtvedt first identified the cluster, it had the oldest TMRCA of ~5000 YBP, compared to ~3500 YBP of each of Cont1, Cont2, Cont3, and Isles-Eng (Isles-Scot being even younger). That meant that it was closer to the "roots" and didn't have as clear a connection to modern groups of people. Of course, since then, we've found a lot of outlier M223 that doesn't fit into any of these, and all of Isles put together has come to have a similar phylogenetic tree as Roots, but it remains the case that Roots doesn't have a clear association with Celtic/Germanic/etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Ah, "ungrouped," I suppose they just haven't gotten around to grouping you yet.



    I think when Nordtvedt first identified the cluster, it had the oldest TMRCA of ~5000 YBP, compared to ~3500 YBP of each of Cont1, Cont2, Cont3, and Isles-Eng (Isles-Scot being even younger). That meant that it was closer to the "roots" and didn't have as clear a connection to modern groups of people. Of course, since then, we've found a lot of outlier M223 that doesn't fit into any of these, and all of Isles put together has come to have a similar phylogenetic tree as Roots, but it remains the case that Roots doesn't have a clear association with Celtic/Germanic/etc.
    Ah, that's very interesting. So it hasn't been pinpointed associated with any specific ethnic/tribal designation? Very intriguing.

    Hmm! Cool stuff, really.

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    Some more Updates!

    I had upgraded when I got a huge discount a few months ago and the results are finally in:

    I ran this through Cullen's predictor and got:

    Haplogroups and probabilities are as follows:
    I-S24 =>99%


    Haplo-I Subclades and probabilities are as follows:
    I-M223-Root1 =>56% I-M223-Root3 =>22% I-M223-Root2 =>19% I-M284-Isles/Sc =>1%

    DYS393 DYS390 DYS19 DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II DYS458 DYS459 DYS455 DYS454 DYS447 DYS437 DYS448 DYS449 DYS464 DYS460 Y-GATA-H4 YCAII DYS456 DYS607 DYS576 DYS570 CDY DYS442 DYS438 DYS531 DYS578 DYF395S1 DYS590 DYS537 DYS641 DYS472 DYF406S1 DYS511 DYS425 DYS413 DYS557 DYS594 DYS436 DYS490 DYS534 DYS450 DYS444 DYS481 DYS520 DYS446 DYS617 DYS568 DYS487 DYS572 DYS640 DYS492 DYS565
    14 23 15 10 15-15 11 13 11 13 12 29 16 10-Aug 11 11 26 15 20 29 11-13-14-14 11 10 19-20 16 15 19 18 32-35 12 10 11 8 15-16 8 12 10 8 10 9 13 21-22 15 11 12 12 16 9 14 26 22 8 11 12 13 11 12 13 11

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    So, it seems I'm fairly firmly in the roots category. Is "roots" not associated still with any known populations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    So, it seems I'm fairly firmly in the roots category. Is "roots" not associated still with any known populations?
    As far as I'm aware, nobody has untangled the history of the Roots cluster yet. Maybe you could analyze your own line by looking at the distribution of your closest matches?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    As far as I'm aware, nobody has untangled the history of the Roots cluster yet. Maybe you could analyze your own line by looking at the distribution of your closest matches?
    Sounds like a very good idea to me, my good sir.

    I'll do some research and post some findings.

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    At 67 markers, I only have 2 -5 matches (the closest match). 1 from Ireland, one from the US.

    At 37 markers, I have 4 -3 matches. 2 from England, 1 from Ireland, and 1 from the US.

    As I know from my paternal ancestry that I am Cornish.

    The problem, of course, is both England (and to a lesser extent, Ireland) is both Celtic and Germanic. Though isn't it generally the case that I is more strongly associated with certain Germanic tribes than Celtic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JFWR View Post
    At 67 markers, I only have 2 -5 matches (the closest match). 1 from Ireland, one from the US.

    At 37 markers, I have 4 -3 matches. 2 from England, 1 from Ireland, and 1 from the US.

    As I know from my paternal ancestry that I am Cornish.

    The problem, of course, is both England (and to a lesser extent, Ireland) is both Celtic and Germanic. Though isn't it generally the case that I is more strongly associated with certain Germanic tribes than Celtic?
    Yeah, I don't think you've clearly resolved yet whether your line is Anglo-Saxon, Celtic Cornish, or what. Irish matches may lean to Celtic, but then looking on the M223 Project, you're certainly in a cluster with a lot of Germans. It's tough to get any temporal resolution here without making some calculations.

    I think Germanic peoples are more likely to have carried haplogroup I as a whole than Celtic peoples, but I don't think it's clear that they're more likely to have carried I2-M223-Roots in particular. Insular Celts definitely seem more likely than any Germanic peoples to have carried I2-M223-Isles, to take another example.

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