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Thread: The Arbereshe Communities of Italy

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Magna graecia has nothing to do with the medieval era or for more the recent times. Magna graecia was an entity prior the Roman rise throughout the Mediterranean. Magna graecia were called the entire regions of south Italy colonised by the hellenes earlier 200 bce. Afterwards everything got latinized. The same happened with the Hellenic colonies of east Adriatic and east Ionian sea. But if you feel better to believe this Greek ancient continuity of south Italy, you are free, go on.
    As I already said there are two branches of Muslims in Albania. One are sunny which have their own leader, and the other is beltashi (Shiite) which have a different leadership. All the religions in Albania have their own distinct leadership. There is not a majority. There are less than 60% Muslim believers in Albania ,and those are divided in Sunni and bektashi. Unfortunately we don't know which is the exact number of this division.
    Keep in your mind, in north Albania is a catholic church which is s place also used for pilgrimage. It's a holy place for the Albanian believers. There you can see many Albanian Muslims as pilgrims. The same happening on the Tomor mountain . There is a holy place of the Albanian bektashi believers, on top of the mountain. You can see there also many Christians pilgrims among with Muslims.
    .
    The fact is that the historical evidence I've seen shows that Greek did not totally die out in southern Italy/Sicily with the Roman conquests, whatever happened in other parts of the world. You can see the documentation at the link above. That doesn't mean the frequency didn't decrease, only to increase again a few hundred years later with Byzantium. Nor does it mean that the Greek didn't change. Anyway, it's a peripheral issue to the thread.

    As for the percentage of Muslims in Albania, the figure I quoted comes from the UN. I can provide a link if you wish. It may be dated or inaccurate for other reasons, as I said above. What source, other than what you "believe" puts it lower? You know what, don't bother. What does it matter whether it's 60 some percent or 50 percent, or whatever? It certainly doesn't matter to me. I just discussed it in the context that the Arbereshe are Christians and so are some Albanians. That's it. This thread isn't about the religious affiliations of the Albanians. The subject is the Arbereshe.


    No offense to anyone, but I don't care about any of this on a personal level. Southern Italians/Sicilians are not Greeks, and I'm not even southern Italian. It may be common in the Balkans to analyze everything in terms of one's own ethnicity so as to score points for it, but that's not how I operate. I don't take sides in any of those disputes, by the way, including the one between Albanians and Greeks. I'm just trying to discover the truth, genetically and historically, and let the chips fall where they may.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    .
    The fact is that the historical evidence I've seen shows that Greek did not totally die out in southern Italy/Sicily with the Roman conquests, whatever happened in other parts of the world. You can see the documentation at the link above. That doesn't mean the frequency didn't decrease, only to increase again a few hundred years later with Byzantium. Nor does it mean that the Greek didn't change. Anyway, it's a peripheral issue to the thread.

    As for the percentage of Muslims in Albania, the figure I quoted comes from the UN. I can provide a link if you wish. It may be dated or inaccurate for other reasons, as I said above. What source, other than what you "believe" puts it lower? You know what, don't bother. What does it matter whether it's 60 some percent or 50 percent, or whatever? It certainly doesn't matter to me. I just discussed it in the context that the Arbereshe are Christians and so are some Albanians. That's it. This thread isn't about the religious affiliations of the Albanians. The subject is the Arbereshe.


    No offense to anyone, but I don't care about any of this on a personal level. Southern Italians/Sicilians are not Greeks, and I'm not even southern Italian. It may be common in the Balkans to analyze everything in terms of one's own ethnicity so as to score points for it, but that's not how I operate. I don't take sides in any of those disputes, by the way, including the one between Albanians and Greeks. I'm just trying to discover the truth, genetically and historically, and let the chips fall where they may.
    Firstly: as for the south Greeks you are free to believe whatever you wish. I said my arguments on the post above. I could talk more, but this is not the right thread. The Hellenic presence in Mediterranean is largely overestimated.
    In Albanians is not an Muslim community. There are two separate lines of Muslims. Is like saying that orthodox and Catholic are the same religious community. Sunny and Shiite are different branches of Muslims. Each one of them doesn't compose more than 50% . But we should put there even the atheists. I hope you have knowledge onto the Sunni and Shiite religions. You know that the war in Syria and Iraq is happening because of these extremists.
    I am going to long with this, because I don't want that someone gets confused. In this photo you see the four representatives of the four major religions of Albania participating on the homages for the killings of Charlie hedbo.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Firstly: as for the south Greeks you are free to believe whatever you wish. I said my arguments on the post above. I could talk more, but this is not the right thread. The Hellenic presence in Mediterranean is largely overestimated.
    In Albanians is not an Muslim community. There are two separate lines of Muslims. Is like saying that orthodox and Catholic are the same religious community. Sunny and Shiite are different branches of Muslims. Each one of them doesn't compose more than 50% . But we should put there even the atheists. I hope you have knowledge onto the Sunni and Shiite religions. You know that the war in Syria and Iraq is happening because of these extremists.
    I am going to long with this, because I don't want that someone gets confused. In this photo you see the four representatives of the four major religions of Albania participating on the homages for the killings of Charlie hedbo.
    True the Hellenic presence in Mediterrenenan is arqued, but only from the Albanians,
    why?

    don't worry, Big Kossova is coming.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Was there any large Slavic migration to southern Italy for such a statement to be made confidently?
    Yes there is .......croatian

    According to evidence Molise Croats arrived in the early 16th century.[16] The documents from the episcopal archive of Termoli indicate that Molise Croats arrived 1518 in Stifilić (San Felice).[17] A stone inscription on the church in Palata, destroyed in 1930s, read Hoc Primum Dalmatiae Gentis Incoluere Castrum Ac Fundamentis Erexere Templum Anno 1531 (Residents of Dalmatia first settled the town and founded the church in 1531).[16] The absence of any Turkish word additionally proves this dating.[16][18]
    Serafino Razzi in his work Cronica Vastese (1576–1577) wrote that the Slavs who came across the sea founded in Molise region settlements San Felice, Montemitro, Acquaviva Collecroce, Palata, Tavenna, Ripalta, San Giacomo degli Schiavoni, Montelongo, San Biase, Petacciato, Cerritello, Sant'Angelo and Montenero di Bisaccia.[6][13] Other Slavs settled in Vasto, Forcabobolani, San Silvestro, Vacri, Casacanditella, Francavilla al Mare, and in Abruzzo among others.[13]




    and then there is the slovenes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana


    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm fascinated by their albanian!!



    Arbereshe version of italian song"Bella ciao":



    Arbereshe:

    O E BUKUR FALEM

    Një menatë u u zgjova,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem
    Një menatë u u zgjova
    e armikun te shpia pashë

    O partixhan, qillëm me tij,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    o partixhan, qillëm metij
    se ndienj skurse jam e vdes.

    E në u vdes si partixhan,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    e në u vdes si partixhan
    ti mua ke të më varrëzosh

    Ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali
    nën një lule çë bën hje.

    E gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    e gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën
    çë bukur lule ka më thenë.

    E kjo isht lulja e partixhanit,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    e kjo isht lulja epartxhanit
    çë la gjellën për lirinë.




    Standard Albanian:

    O E BUKUR PERSHENDETJE

    Një mengjes unë u zgjova
    o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
    Një mëngjes unë u zgjova
    dhe armikun te shtëpia pashë

    O partizanë merrëm me vete
    o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
    O partizanë merrëm me vete
    se ndihem sikur po vdes

    Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
    o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
    Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
    ti duhët të më varrosësh

    Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
    o e bukur përshëndetje,përshëndetje, përshëndetje
    Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
    nër një lule që bënë hije

    Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
    o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
    Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
    sa lule e bukur do të thonë

    Kjo është lulja e partizanit
    o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
    Kjo është lulja e partizanit
    që japi jetën per lirinë




    Kosovo Albanian:

    OJ BUKUROSHE TUNGJATJETA

    Ni mëngjes unë u qova
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung,
    Ni mëngjes unë u qova
    dhe armikun të shpia e pashë

    O partizanë, merrum më veti
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    O partizanë, merrum më veti
    se po nihem sikur po des

    Dhe nëse des si partizanë
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    Dhe nëse des si partizanë
    ti duhet me m'varros

    Me m'varros atje naltë në mal
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    Me m'varros atje nalë në mal
    nen ni lule që banë hije

    Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung' tung'
    Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
    sa lule e bukurë kan me thanë

    Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
    që dha jetën per lirinë

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    Beautiful song, indeed, Glauk. Though, I am not sure if you yourself did the translation from the Arbereshe Tosk to Standard, but I wanted to point out: "Te Falem" is not the same, nor even similar to "Te Pershendes". "Te Falem" means "I pray to you", which is in the original song, and whom ever came up with the Standard version decided to turn that into "Hello", which is what "Te Pershendes" means. Quite funny actually, one would think only a non native Albanian speaker would make such a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    Beautiful song, indeed, Glauk. Though, I am not sure if you yourself did the translation from the Arbereshe Tosk to Standard, but I wanted to point out: "Te Falem" is not the same, nor even similar to "Te Pershendes". "Te Falem" means "I pray to you", which is in the original song, and whom ever came up with the Standard version decided to turn that into "Hello", which is what "Te Pershendes" means. Quite funny actually, one would think only a non native Albanian speaker would make such a mistake.
    "Falem" is arbereshe for "pershendetje", i think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    True the Hellenic presence in Mediterrenenan is arqued, but only from the Albanians,
    why?

    don't worry, Big Kossova is coming.
    Don't you get bored with that? Repeating all the time the same phrase, over and over. ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glauk View Post
    I'm fascinated by their albanian!!



    Arbereshe version of italian song"Bella ciao":



    Arbereshe:

    O E BUKUR FALEM

    Një menatë u u zgjova,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem
    Një menatë u u zgjova
    e armikun te shpia pashë

    O partixhan, qillëm me tij,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    o partixhan, qillëm metij
    se ndienj skurse jam e vdes.

    E në u vdes si partixhan,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    e në u vdes si partixhan
    ti mua ke të më varrëzosh

    Ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali
    nën një lule çë bën hje.

    E gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    e gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën
    çë bukur lule ka më thenë.

    E kjo isht lulja e partixhanit,
    o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
    e kjo isht lulja epartxhanit
    çë la gjellën për lirinë.




    Standard Albanian:

    O E BUKUR PERSHENDETJE

    Një mengjes unë u zgjova
    o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
    Një mëngjes unë u zgjova
    dhe armikun te shtëpia pashë

    O partizanë merrëm me vete
    o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
    O partizanë merrëm me vete
    se ndihem sikur po vdes

    Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
    o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
    Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
    ti duhët të më varrosësh

    Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
    o e bukur përshëndetje,përshëndetje, përshëndetje
    Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
    nër një lule që bënë hije

    Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
    o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
    Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
    sa lule e bukur do të thonë

    Kjo është lulja e partizanit
    o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
    Kjo është lulja e partizanit
    që japi jetën per lirinë




    Kosovo Albanian:

    OJ BUKUROSHE TUNGJATJETA

    Ni mëngjes unë u qova
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung,
    Ni mëngjes unë u qova
    dhe armikun të shpia e pashë

    O partizanë, merrum më veti
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    O partizanë, merrum më veti
    se po nihem sikur po des

    Dhe nëse des si partizanë
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    Dhe nëse des si partizanë
    ti duhet me m'varros

    Me m'varros atje naltë në mal
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    Me m'varros atje nalë në mal
    nen ni lule që banë hije

    Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung' tung'
    Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
    sa lule e bukurë kan me thanë

    Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
    oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
    Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
    që dha jetën per lirinë
    I like more ''Moj e bukura Morene".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Don't you get bored with that? Repeating all the time the same phrase, over and over. ...
    why? are you afraid the truth?

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    Take your Balkan fratricidal rivalries out of this thread. That applies to all of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    why? are you afraid the truth?
    What truth. ! You even not explain it.

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    An interesting Arbereshe movie






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