The Arbereshe Communities of Italy

Don't forget that the Albanian flag was sent by an arbereshe who was living in Spain or in France. Was one of the descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti- scanderbeg. He send the flag to the Albanian patriots during the independence.

what?

The Albanian flag is the Byzantine danger flag, with litlle different eagle,
search better the Byzantine flags


there were 3 byzantine flags,

1 yellow black
2 yellow red
3 black red

yellow black meant protected by emperror laws and Christ
yellow red meant emperror is here (personal flag)
black red meant red alert, war is on, generals flag

only Smyrna / Νικαια Nice empire used Green colour


200px-Byzantine_Eagle.svg.png



gr_byze.gif






and to be correct Kastrioti flag had the war eagle of Pontic Komnenoi Κομνηνοι dynasty family from 1057 till 1204 (before Trebizond empire)


and modern Greek flag is the emblem of Douka Δουκα family 1204
Douka Duca family is connected with Ραγγαβης Raggaves family of 811


search the φλαμουλα flamoulla (from Latin Vellum) of Byzantine families and armies

the war flag of general Γ Μανιακης From Edessa in Middle East to Sicily and South Italy
the same flag had Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας
and with little diferent tail Kastrioti

errewewee.png
 
what?

The Albanian flag is the Byzantine danger flag, with litlle different eagle,
search better the Byzantine flags


there were 3 byzantine flags,

1 yellow black
2 yellow red
3 black red

yellow black meant protected by emperror laws and Christ
yellow red meant emperror is here (personal flag)
black red meant red alert, war is on, generals flag

only Smyrna / Νικαια Nice empire used Green colour


200px-Byzantine_Eagle.svg.png



gr_byze.gif






and to be correct Kastrioti flag had the war eagle of Pontic Komnenoi Κομνηνοι dynasty family from 1057 till 1204 (before Trebizond empire)


and modern Greek flag is the emblem of Douka Δουκα family 1204
Douka Duca family is connected with Ραγγαβης Raggaves family of 811


search the φλαμουλα flamoulla (from Latin Vellum) of Byzantine families and armies

the war flag of general Γ Μανιακης From Edessa in Middle East to Sicily and South Italy
the same flag had Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας
and with little diferent tail Kastrioti

errewewee.png

The Albanian Flag is an adaption of George Kastriota family flag as a national flag. Kastriota belonged to Eastern Christian church or Orthodoxy. The double headed eagle at that time was a sign of strong faith to orthodoxy, and I think was a symbol of orthodox church also but with minor changes in color, shape and few extra details. Majority of Albanians at that time belonged to Byzantine church. Whatever was at that time, today double headed eagle is known as a symbol of Albanians. It will be so as long as Albanians will be alive.
 
How could large areas of southern Italy have not spoken Greek, when they were part of Magna Graecia for so many centuries? Even after Romans conquered it, the Greek language did not disappear. The historic record reveals that most people were probably bilingual in Latin and Greek, because documents, contracts, etc., are found in both language. The Greek language, perhaps a slightly different variant of it, was renewed during the centuries of Byzantine rule. The present day areas of Puglia, Calabria and Sicily were a province of Byzantium, with Byzantine Greek the official language. The religion was also of the "Greek" rite. It was only through the Latinization process engaged in by the Normans (partly by importing a lot of northern Italian settlers) and their successors that both language and religion changed.

I'm not speaking of genetics here. Who knows how much actual "new" gene flow there was from Greece or Byzantium in those two periods. I'm speaking strictly of language and religion.

I would recommend, for Sicily, "The History of Muslim Sicily", Leonard Chiarelli. You can also look at:

Korhonen, Sicily in the Imperial Roman Period

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catepanate_of_Italy

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7354.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language
"Latin was spoken by the Roman occupation troops who garrisoned Sicily after Rome annexed the island (after the end of the First Punic War, ca. 261 BC). A historical feature shared by Sicily, the far south of Calabria, and the province of Lecce, is that during the Roman period, these areas were never completely Latinised. Greek remained the main language for the majority of the population. This helps explain the linguistic differences in these areas and those immediately to the north which were, more or less, Latinised (Hull)."

" The whole of Sicily was controlled by Saracens at the elite level, although the general population remained a Greek speaking and predominantly Orthodox Christian population."

There are innumerable other sources on the web.

I'm sure there's an interesting story to tell about the ties between the Arbereshe and Albania proper, but it's not particularly relevant to the discussion we were having, since we were discussing the Arbereshe of the current day, and the fact that they have been disappearing as a minority group through intermarriage and identification with the larger Italian culture. That's not to say that you can't find some who have resisted assimilation, however.

The figure of about 60% for Muslims in Albania was from a UN paper. Perhaps it's outdated. I would imagine that perhaps religious affiliation of any kind is on the decline there as it is everywhere else.
Magna graecia has nothing to do with the medieval era or for more the recent times. Magna graecia was an entity prior the Roman rise throughout the Mediterranean. Magna graecia were called the entire regions of south Italy colonised by the hellenes earlier 200 bce. Afterwards everything got latinized. The same happened with the Hellenic colonies of east Adriatic and east Ionian sea. But if you feel better to believe this Greek ancient continuity of south Italy, you are free, go on.
As I already said there are two branches of Muslims in Albania. One are sunny which have their own leader, and the other is beltashi (Shiite) which have a different leadership. All the religions in Albania have their own distinct leadership. There is not a majority. There are less than 60% Muslim believers in Albania ,and those are divided in Sunni and bektashi. Unfortunately we don't know which is the exact number of this division.
Keep in your mind, in north Albania is a catholic church which is s place also used for pilgrimage. It's a holy place for the Albanian believers. There you can see many Albanian Muslims as pilgrims. The same happening on the Tomor mountain . There is a holy place of the Albanian bektashi believers, on top of the mountain. You can see there also many Christians pilgrims among with Muslims.
 
what?

The Albanian flag is the Byzantine danger flag, with litlle different eagle,
search better the Byzantine flags


there were 3 byzantine flags,

1 yellow black
2 yellow red
3 black red

yellow black meant protected by emperror laws and Christ
yellow red meant emperror is here (personal flag)
black red meant red alert, war is on, generals flag

only Smyrna / Νικαια Nice empire used Green colour


200px-Byzantine_Eagle.svg.png



gr_byze.gif






and to be correct Kastrioti flag had the war eagle of Pontic Komnenoi Κομνηνοι dynasty family from 1057 till 1204 (before Trebizond empire)


and modern Greek flag is the emblem of Douka Δουκα family 1204
Douka Duca family is connected with Ραγγαβης Raggaves family of 811


search the φλαμουλα flamoulla (from Latin Vellum) of Byzantine families and armies

the war flag of general Γ Μανιακης From Edessa in Middle East to Sicily and South Italy
the same flag had Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας
and with little diferent tail Kastrioti

errewewee.png
What is your point. Read about Albanian history before talking. Of course the Albanian flag has his origin from the Romans. A large part of the Albanian (yllirian) language is latinized . They were part of the Roman empire since the years 160 bce and till the years when the Slavs destroyed the east Roman empire. The Albanian flag has a Roman origin.
313cb5902e47542a2432e65b518f4ce3.jpg
f6d8ab609aa9ef690afdc9d1c2c114a8.jpg

The second language of Albania is Italian. For Albanians is too easy to learn Italian.
 
The Albanian Flag is an adaption of George Kastriota family flag as a national flag. Kastriota belonged to Eastern Christian church or Orthodoxy. The double headed eagle at that time was a sign of strong faith to orthodoxy, and I think was a symbol of orthodox church also but with minor changes in color, shape and few extra details. Majority of Albanians at that time belonged to Byzantine church. Whatever was at that time, today double headed eagle is known as a symbol of Albanians. It will be so as long as Albanians will be alive.
The eagle was the holy symbol of the Romans. It was one head eagle. Afterward the Roman empire became divided on east empire and West empire, we see this new eagle with two heads. It's a Roman symbol. The inhabitants of the east identified themselves as Romans. They called themselves "romi" . When the ottomans conquered the Constantinople, the empire was non-existent. The Albanian flag is almost the same as was the Kastrioti' s flag.
 
Magna graecia has nothing to do with the medieval era or for more the recent times. Magna graecia was an entity prior the Roman rise throughout the Mediterranean. Magna graecia were called the entire regions of south Italy colonised by the hellenes earlier 200 bce. Afterwards everything got latinized. The same happened with the Hellenic colonies of east Adriatic and east Ionian sea. But if you feel better to believe this Greek ancient continuity of south Italy, you are free, go on.
As I already said there are two branches of Muslims in Albania. One are sunny which have their own leader, and the other is beltashi (Shiite) which have a different leadership. All the religions in Albania have their own distinct leadership. There is not a majority. There are less than 60% Muslim believers in Albania ,and those are divided in Sunni and bektashi. Unfortunately we don't know which is the exact number of this division.
Keep in your mind, in north Albania is a catholic church which is s place also used for pilgrimage. It's a holy place for the Albanian believers. There you can see many Albanian Muslims as pilgrims. The same happening on the Tomor mountain . There is a holy place of the Albanian bektashi believers, on top of the mountain. You can see there also many Christians pilgrims among with Muslims.
.
The fact is that the historical evidence I've seen shows that Greek did not totally die out in southern Italy/Sicily with the Roman conquests, whatever happened in other parts of the world. You can see the documentation at the link above. That doesn't mean the frequency didn't decrease, only to increase again a few hundred years later with Byzantium. Nor does it mean that the Greek didn't change. Anyway, it's a peripheral issue to the thread.

As for the percentage of Muslims in Albania, the figure I quoted comes from the UN. I can provide a link if you wish. It may be dated or inaccurate for other reasons, as I said above. What source, other than what you "believe" puts it lower? You know what, don't bother. What does it matter whether it's 60 some percent or 50 percent, or whatever? It certainly doesn't matter to me. I just discussed it in the context that the Arbereshe are Christians and so are some Albanians. That's it. This thread isn't about the religious affiliations of the Albanians. The subject is the Arbereshe.


No offense to anyone, but I don't care about any of this on a personal level. Southern Italians/Sicilians are not Greeks, and I'm not even southern Italian. It may be common in the Balkans to analyze everything in terms of one's own ethnicity so as to score points for it, but that's not how I operate. I don't take sides in any of those disputes, by the way, including the one between Albanians and Greeks. I'm just trying to discover the truth, genetically and historically, and let the chips fall where they may.
 
.
The fact is that the historical evidence I've seen shows that Greek did not totally die out in southern Italy/Sicily with the Roman conquests, whatever happened in other parts of the world. You can see the documentation at the link above. That doesn't mean the frequency didn't decrease, only to increase again a few hundred years later with Byzantium. Nor does it mean that the Greek didn't change. Anyway, it's a peripheral issue to the thread.

As for the percentage of Muslims in Albania, the figure I quoted comes from the UN. I can provide a link if you wish. It may be dated or inaccurate for other reasons, as I said above. What source, other than what you "believe" puts it lower? You know what, don't bother. What does it matter whether it's 60 some percent or 50 percent, or whatever? It certainly doesn't matter to me. I just discussed it in the context that the Arbereshe are Christians and so are some Albanians. That's it. This thread isn't about the religious affiliations of the Albanians. The subject is the Arbereshe.


No offense to anyone, but I don't care about any of this on a personal level. Southern Italians/Sicilians are not Greeks, and I'm not even southern Italian. It may be common in the Balkans to analyze everything in terms of one's own ethnicity so as to score points for it, but that's not how I operate. I don't take sides in any of those disputes, by the way, including the one between Albanians and Greeks. I'm just trying to discover the truth, genetically and historically, and let the chips fall where they may.
Firstly: as for the south Greeks you are free to believe whatever you wish. I said my arguments on the post above. I could talk more, but this is not the right thread. The Hellenic presence in Mediterranean is largely overestimated.
In Albanians is not an Muslim community. There are two separate lines of Muslims. Is like saying that orthodox and Catholic are the same religious community. Sunny and Shiite are different branches of Muslims. Each one of them doesn't compose more than 50% . But we should put there even the atheists. I hope you have knowledge onto the Sunni and Shiite religions. You know that the war in Syria and Iraq is happening because of these extremists.
I am going to long with this, because I don't want that someone gets confused. In this photo you see the four representatives of the four major religions of Albania participating on the homages for the killings of Charlie hedbo.
a214620922d21b8641458ad0c717d54d.jpg
 
Firstly: as for the south Greeks you are free to believe whatever you wish. I said my arguments on the post above. I could talk more, but this is not the right thread. The Hellenic presence in Mediterranean is largely overestimated.
In Albanians is not an Muslim community. There are two separate lines of Muslims. Is like saying that orthodox and Catholic are the same religious community. Sunny and Shiite are different branches of Muslims. Each one of them doesn't compose more than 50% . But we should put there even the atheists. I hope you have knowledge onto the Sunni and Shiite religions. You know that the war in Syria and Iraq is happening because of these extremists.
I am going to long with this, because I don't want that someone gets confused. In this photo you see the four representatives of the four major religions of Albania participating on the homages for the killings of Charlie hedbo.
a214620922d21b8641458ad0c717d54d.jpg

True the Hellenic presence in Mediterrenenan is arqued, but only from the Albanians,
why?

don't worry, Big Kossova is coming.
 
Was there any large Slavic migration to southern Italy for such a statement to be made confidently?

Yes there is .......croatian

According to evidence Molise Croats arrived in the early 16th century.[16] The documents from the episcopal archive of Termoli indicate that Molise Croats arrived 1518 in Stifilić (San Felice).[17] A stone inscription on the church in Palata, destroyed in 1930s, read Hoc Primum Dalmatiae Gentis Incoluere Castrum Ac Fundamentis Erexere Templum Anno 1531 (Residents of Dalmatia first settled the town and founded the church in 1531).[16] The absence of any Turkish word additionally proves this dating.[16][18]
Serafino Razzi in his work Cronica Vastese (1576–1577) wrote that the Slavs who came across the sea founded in Molise region settlements San Felice, Montemitro, Acquaviva Collecroce, Palata, Tavenna, Ripalta, San Giacomo degli Schiavoni, Montelongo, San Biase, Petacciato, Cerritello, Sant'Angelo and Montenero di Bisaccia.[6][13] Other Slavs settled in Vasto, Forcabobolani, San Silvestro, Vacri, Casacanditella, Francavilla al Mare, and in Abruzzo among others.[13]




and then there is the slovenes
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavia_Friulana



[/URL]
 
I'm fascinated by their albanian!!



Arbereshe version of italian song"Bella ciao":


Arbereshe:

O E BUKUR FALEM

Një menatë u u zgjova,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem
Një menatë u u zgjova
e armikun te shpia pashë

O partixhan, qillëm me tij,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
o partixhan, qillëm metij
se ndienj skurse jam e vdes.

E në u vdes si partixhan,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
e në u vdes si partixhan
ti mua ke të më varrëzosh

Ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali
nën një lule çë bën hje.

E gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
e gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën
çë bukur lule ka më thenë.

E kjo isht lulja e partixhanit,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
e kjo isht lulja epartxhanit
çë la gjellën për lirinë.




Standard Albanian:

O E BUKUR PERSHENDETJE

Një mengjes unë u zgjova
o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
Një mëngjes unë u zgjova
dhe armikun te shtëpia pashë

O partizanë merrëm me vete
o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
O partizanë merrëm me vete
se ndihem sikur po vdes

Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
ti duhët të më varrosësh

Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
o e bukur përshëndetje,përshëndetje, përshëndetje
Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
nër një lule që bënë hije

Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
sa lule e bukur do të thonë

Kjo është lulja e partizanit
o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
Kjo është lulja e partizanit
që japi jetën per lirinë




Kosovo Albanian:

OJ BUKUROSHE TUNGJATJETA

Ni mëngjes unë u qova
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung,
Ni mëngjes unë u qova
dhe armikun të shpia e pashë

O partizanë, merrum më veti
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
O partizanë, merrum më veti
se po nihem sikur po des

Dhe nëse des si partizanë
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
Dhe nëse des si partizanë
ti duhet me m'varros

Me m'varros atje naltë në mal
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
Me m'varros atje nalë në mal
nen ni lule që banë hije

Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
oj bukuroshe tung', tung' tung'
Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
sa lule e bukurë kan me thanë

Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
që dha jetën per lirinë
 
Beautiful song, indeed, Glauk. Though, I am not sure if you yourself did the translation from the Arbereshe Tosk to Standard, but I wanted to point out: "Te Falem" is not the same, nor even similar to "Te Pershendes". "Te Falem" means "I pray to you", which is in the original song, and whom ever came up with the Standard version decided to turn that into "Hello", which is what "Te Pershendes" means. Quite funny actually, one would think only a non native Albanian speaker would make such a mistake.
 
Beautiful song, indeed, Glauk. Though, I am not sure if you yourself did the translation from the Arbereshe Tosk to Standard, but I wanted to point out: "Te Falem" is not the same, nor even similar to "Te Pershendes". "Te Falem" means "I pray to you", which is in the original song, and whom ever came up with the Standard version decided to turn that into "Hello", which is what "Te Pershendes" means. Quite funny actually, one would think only a non native Albanian speaker would make such a mistake.

"Falem" is arbereshe for "pershendetje", i think.
 
True the Hellenic presence in Mediterrenenan is arqued, but only from the Albanians,
why?

don't worry, Big Kossova is coming.
Don't you get bored with that? Repeating all the time the same phrase, over and over. ...
 
I'm fascinated by their albanian!!



Arbereshe version of italian song"Bella ciao":


Arbereshe:

O E BUKUR FALEM

Një menatë u u zgjova,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem
Një menatë u u zgjova
e armikun te shpia pashë

O partixhan, qillëm me tij,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
o partixhan, qillëm metij
se ndienj skurse jam e vdes.

E në u vdes si partixhan,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
e në u vdes si partixhan
ti mua ke të më varrëzosh

Ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
ka më varrëzosh atje lart te mali
nën një lule çë bën hje.

E gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
e gjithë gjindjat çë atje ka shkojën
çë bukur lule ka më thenë.

E kjo isht lulja e partixhanit,
o e bukur falem, të falem, të falem,
e kjo isht lulja epartxhanit
çë la gjellën për lirinë.




Standard Albanian:

O E BUKUR PERSHENDETJE

Një mengjes unë u zgjova
o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
Një mëngjes unë u zgjova
dhe armikun te shtëpia pashë

O partizanë merrëm me vete
o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
O partizanë merrëm me vete
se ndihem sikur po vdes

Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
o e bukur përshëndetje, përshëndetje, përshëndetje
Dhe nëse vdes si partizanë
ti duhët të më varrosësh

Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
o e bukur përshëndetje,përshëndetje, përshëndetje
Të më varrosësh atje lartë në mal
nër një lule që bënë hije

Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
Dhe të gjithë njerëzit që aty kalojnë
sa lule e bukur do të thonë

Kjo është lulja e partizanit
o e bukura përshëndetje, përshëndetje,përshëndetje
Kjo është lulja e partizanit
që japi jetën per lirinë




Kosovo Albanian:

OJ BUKUROSHE TUNGJATJETA

Ni mëngjes unë u qova
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung,
Ni mëngjes unë u qova
dhe armikun të shpia e pashë

O partizanë, merrum më veti
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
O partizanë, merrum më veti
se po nihem sikur po des

Dhe nëse des si partizanë
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
Dhe nëse des si partizanë
ti duhet me m'varros

Me m'varros atje naltë në mal
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
Me m'varros atje nalë në mal
nen ni lule që banë hije

Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
oj bukuroshe tung', tung' tung'
Dhe tanë gjinja që aty kalojnë
sa lule e bukurë kan me thanë

Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
oj bukuroshe tung', tung', tung'
Kjo ashtë lulja e partizanit
që dha jetën per lirinë
I like more ''Moj e bukura Morene".
 
Take your Balkan fratricidal rivalries out of this thread. That applies to all of you.
 

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