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Thread: The Arbereshe Communities of Italy

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    The Arbereshe Communities of Italy



    So that the Byzantium thread is not further hijacked, this time by me...I have started this separate thread:

    See the following for an overview:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people

    See also: Gli Arbereshe d'Italia:
    http://www.terredelmediterraneo.org/...costantino.htm

    La comunità Albanese in Calabria
    http://www.magnagreciapievemanuele.i.../albanesi.html


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    Was hoping to read more on them.

    Apparently no contribution so far.

    Oh well. :)

    Angela, what do u think about their numbers being reduced in Italy due to assimilation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    Was hoping to read more on them.

    Apparently no contribution so far.

    Oh well. :)

    Angela, what do u think about their numbers being reduced in Italy due to assimilation?
    Do you mean do I think it happened? From the studies I've seen there seems to have been gene flow in both directions, but I think the number of people who claim to have Arbereshe ancestry has definitely gone down. Those who speak the language are an even smaller percentage. Tomorrow when I have some time I'll go through my files and try to find the studies for you. One that comes to mind is a genetic study and one is a surname study.

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    This city seem to have been an Arberesh settlement too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biancavilla


    One of their most beautiful and original songs, even though in this case it sung by an Arvanit (Arberesh) from Greece, Thanassis Moraitis:





    Also a blog in Italian that I took from another forum: http://contessioto.blogspot.it/2011/...arbereshe.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zanatis View Post
    Was hoping to read more on them.

    Apparently no contribution so far.

    Oh well. :)

    Angela, what do u think about their numbers being reduced in Italy due to assimilation?
    Most of them live in Apulia, Calabria and Sicily. Here a website, click on Mappa and you can see the numers of Arbereshe.

    113,088 Puglia
    88,319 Calabria
    64,177 Sicilia

    http://www.guzzardi.it/arberia/
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Most of them live in Apulia, Calabria and Sicily. Here a website, click on Mappa and you can see the numers of Arbereshe.

    113,088 Puglia
    88,319 Calabria
    64,177 Sicilia

    http://www.guzzardi.it/arberia/
    Are they including Slavic settlements too? Because there are also clearly slavic toponyms like San Giacomo Degli Schiavoni and Ginestra Degli Schiavone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Are they including Slavic settlements too? Because there are also clearly slavic toponyms like San Giacomo Degli Schiavoni and Ginestra Degli Schiavone.
    Was there any large Slavic migration to southern Italy for such a statement to be made confidently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Are they including Slavic settlements too? Because there are also clearly slavic toponyms like San Giacomo Degli Schiavoni and Ginestra Degli Schiavone.
    Only arbereshe and assimilated arbereshe (the ones who don't speak albanian but they have the orthodox rite) for the three regions that i've cited above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Was there any large Slavic migration to southern Italy for such a statement to be made confidently?
    Yes and before you ask, there is still a Croatian speaking minority in Molise.

    Some Italian surnames which indicate slavic ancestry:

    LO SCHIAVO, LOSCHIAVO , SCHIAVI, SCHIAVINI, SCHIAVIO, SCHIAVO, SCHIAVOI, SCHIAVON, SCHIAVONE, SCHIAVONI, , SCIAVO or SCIAVA, SCHIAVINETTI, SCHIAVONATO, SCHIAVULLI, SCHIAVUZZI, SCLAVI and SCLAVO...

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    Was there any large Slavic migration to southern Italy for such a statement to be made confidently?
    Yes to southern Italy and to east coast of central Italy (Marche, Abruzzo...), mostly from Dalmatia. As already mentioned by Giuseppe, there is a Croatian speaking minority in Molise.


    The population history of the Croatian linguistic minority of Molise (southern Italy): a maternal view.


    Abstract

    This study examines the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of the Croatian-speaking minority of Molise and evaluates its potential genetic relatedness to the neighbouring Italian groups and the Croatian parental population. Intermatch, genetic distance, and admixture analyses highlighted the genetic similarity between the Croatians of Molise and the neighbouring Italian populations and demonstrated that the Croatian-Italian ethnic minority presents features lying between Croatians and Italians. This finding was confirmed by a phylogeographic approach, which revealed both the prevalence of Croatian and the penetrance of Italian maternal lineages in the Croatian community of Molise. These results suggest that there was no reproductive isolation between the two geographically proximate, yet culturally distinct populations living in Italy. The gene flow between the Croatian-Italians and the surrounding Italian populations indicate, therefore, that ethnic consciousness has not created reproductive barriers and that the Croatian-speaking minority of Molise does not represent a reproductively isolated entity.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15886710


    Papers about the Arbereshe

    Linking Italy and the Balkans. A Y-chromosome perspective from the Arbereshe of Calabria.


    Abstract

    BACKGROUND:
    The Arbereshe are an Albanian-speaking ethno-linguistic minority who settled in Calabria (southern Italy) about five centuries ago.
    AIM:
    This study aims to clarify the genetic relationships between Italy and the Balkans through analysis of Y-chromosome variability in a peculiar case study, the Arbereshe.
    SUBJECT AND METHODS:
    Founder surnames were used as a means to identify a sample of individuals that might trace back to the Albanians at the time of their establishment in Italy. These results were compared with data of more than 1000 individuals from Italy and the Balkans.
    RESULTS:
    The distributions of haplogroups (defined using 31 UEPs) and haplotypes (12 STRs) show that the Italian and Balkan populations are clearly divergent from each other. Within this genetic landscape, the Arbereshe are characterized by two peculiarities: (a) they are a clear outlier in the Italian genetic background, showing a strong genetic affinity with southern Balkans populations; and (b) they retain a high degree of genetic diversity.
    CONCLUSION:
    These results support the hypothesis that the surname-chosen Arbereshe are representative of the Y-chromosome genetic variability of the Albanian founder population. Accordingly, the Arbereshe genetic structure can contribute to the interpretation of the recent biological history of the southern Balkans. Intra-haplogroup analyses suggest that this area may have experienced important changes in the last five centuries, resulting in a marked increase in the frequency of haplogroups I2a and J2.





    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20569043

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    The arberesh of Italy are Christian orthodox, but under the Vatican jurisdiction. The unitary church. They speak an archaic Albanian language, although intelligible by the modern Albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    The arberesh of Italy are Christian orthodox, but under the Vatican jurisdiction. The unitary church. They speak an archaic Albanian language, although intelligible by the modern Albanians.
    By "orthodox, but under the Vatican jurisdiction", do you mean Eastern Catholic?

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    What is the relationship like between the Arbereshe and the Greek minority community of Italy? I would suspect that there would be some level of friendship due to shared religious backgrounds as well as being minorities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    What is the relationship like between the Arbereshe and the Greek minority community of Italy? I would suspect that there would be some level of friendship due to shared religious backgrounds as well as being minorities.
    Both, Arberesh and Greeks of Southern Italy consider themselves Italians. There are no rivalries the way they are in the Balkans. I would guess that religiously Greeks too are under pope.
    Arberesh are gradually disappearing from Italian mosaic. Many have immigrated in other countries, another large portion of them has assimilated into Italians through losing their language and identity, and the one left are abandoning their settlements for bigger Italian cities for in search for opportunities. Maybe after another 100 years Arbereshe will be just history.

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    @Robert Columbia,
    Our Mexican member seems to know a lot about Balkan and Italian history and population genetics. There are not the kind of intense ethnic divisions and animosities in southern Italy that there are in the Balkans. In my experience, most Arbereshe, and Griko speakers, for that matter, consider themselves "Italian" in the broader sense, especially if they are identifying themselves to people from outside Italy. I've met people here in the states who identify as "southern Italian", and only after years did I discover through a chance conversation that they were half, or even, in one case, 100% Arbereshe. This is even more true for Griko speakers. Three out of four of my husband's grandparents come from a community that spoke Greek until the early 1700's, yet they wouldn't dream of identifying themselves as anything other than southern Italian, and proud ones, at that. In the case of the Griko speaking people, I think we have to remember that until the 1200s the vast majority of southern Italians spoke a form of Greek. It's just been a gradual whittling away of the language. I don't think there's much more than 60,000 Griko speakers left.

    In terms of the religions, the Arbereshe of southern Italy who still practice a separate "rite", are part of a group that could be called "Eastern Catholics". There are somewhere close to 22 of these groups. They are in total communion with the "Roman Catholic" Church (acknowledge the supremacy of the Pope, believe in all the same formulations of dogma), but follow the rite (Byzantine) of the Eastern Orthodox Church (the form of the Mass, the use of Greek as the sacred language) and some spiritual traditions of those churches. (Their liturgy is very beautiful, in my opinion, as is the Orthodox rite upon which it is based.)

    In Albania, it's my understanding that the majority of the population descends from people who converted to Islam (somewhere around 60-66% ?) The remainder are Christians. It's also my understanding that originally all the Christians in the area now defined as Albania were Orthodox Christians, but in the north (among the Ghegs) there was a conversion to Roman Catholicism. Today there are both "Roman" Christians and "Orthodox" Christians.

    Strangely enough, through my Venetian cousin in law I knew an Italian priest who was sent to a Gheg parish.

    Anyway, I think it's true that within the next 100 years there won't be any Griko speakers or Arbereshe left in the sense of really distinct groups. This is despite the fact that the Italian government protects minority rights through its constitution, going so far as to provide for nursery school education in Arbereshe and Griko if parents request it, three hours a week instruction in these languages at higher school levels (again, if parents request it) and all sorts of programs supporting their unique cultural events. The Greek government even sponsors classes in Greek for adults, and at one time even paid for the children of Griko speakers to go to summer camps in Greece. It doesn't seem to be working.

    I sometimes think that, paradoxically, the more tolerance you show for minorities, the less threatened they feel, and the more they are included in the wider culture, the more quickly they assimilate.

    Anyway, there are some pretty famous people who are of "Italian" descent, who actually have Arbereshe descent.

    If you're American, you may be familiar with Regis Philbin. He always said he was half Italian, but that Italian is actually Arbereshe.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regis_Philbin

    A famous half Arbereshe Italian is Antonio Gramsci, the leader of the Italian Communist Party. Francesco Crispi, one of the leaders in the movement for Italian unification (associate and friend of Mazzini and Garibaldi) was born into an Arbereshe family, as was Tito Schipa, the great tenor. There are others, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    What is the relationship like between the Arbereshe and the Greek minority community of Italy? I would suspect that there would be some level of friendship due to shared religious backgrounds as well as being minorities.
    The arbereshe of Italy are mostly migrants from south Greece. The arbereshe of Italy are more close culturally and linguistically with the arbereshe of south Greece and Peloponnesian. They speak an archaic old Albanian ,the tosk dialect of south Albania. This mean they are tosk Albanians.
    About the Greek minority they are probably all settled there afterwards the ottoman invasion of south Greece. Albanian and Greek inhabitants of Peloponnesian migrated altogether to south Italy afterward the ottoman invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    By "orthodox, but under the Vatican jurisdiction", do you mean Eastern Catholic?
    No. They continue to follow the eastern Byzantine church rituals. They are orthodox, but they are under the Vatican jurisdiction. Therefore they are called the unitary church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Robert Columbia,
    Our Mexican member seems to know a lot about Balkan and Italian history and population genetics. There are not the kind of intense ethnic divisions and animosities in southern Italy that there are in the Balkans. In my experience, most Arbereshe, and Griko speakers, for that matter, consider themselves "Italian" in the broader sense, especially if they are identifying themselves to people from outside Italy. I've met people here in the states who identify as "southern Italian", and only after years did I discover through a chance conversation that they were half, or even, in one case, 100% Arbereshe. This is even more true for Griko speakers. Three out of four of my husband's grandparents come from a community that spoke Greek until the early 1700's, yet they wouldn't dream of identifying themselves as anything other than southern Italian, and proud ones, at that. In the case of the Griko speaking people, I think we have to remember that until the 1200s the vast majority of southern Italians spoke a form of Greek. It's just been a gradual whittling away of the language. I don't think there's much more than 60,000 Griko speakers left.

    In terms of the religions, the Arbereshe of southern Italy who still practice a separate "rite", are part of a group that could be called "Eastern Catholics". There are somewhere close to 22 of these groups. They are in total communion with the "Roman Catholic" Church (acknowledge the supremacy of the Pope, believe in all the same formulations of dogma), but follow the rite (Byzantine) of the Eastern Orthodox Church (the form of the Mass, the use of Greek as the sacred language) and some spiritual traditions of those churches. (Their liturgy is very beautiful, in my opinion, as is the Orthodox rite upon which it is based.)

    In Albania, it's my understanding that the majority of the population descends from people who converted to Islam (somewhere around 60-66% ?) The remainder are Christians. It's also my understanding that originally all the Christians in the area now defined as Albania were Orthodox Christians, but in the north (among the Ghegs) there was a conversion to Roman Catholicism. Today there are both "Roman" Christians and "Orthodox" Christians.

    Strangely enough, through my Venetian cousin in law I knew an Italian priest who was sent to a Gheg parish.

    Anyway, I think it's true that within the next 100 years there won't be any Griko speakers or Arbereshe left in the sense of really distinct groups. This is despite the fact that the Italian government protects minority rights through its constitution, going so far as to provide for nursery school education in Arbereshe and Griko if parents request it, three hours a week instruction in these languages at higher school levels (again, if parents request it) and all sorts of programs supporting their unique cultural events. The Greek government even sponsors classes in Greek for adults, and at one time even paid for the children of Griko speakers to go to summer camps in Greece. It doesn't seem to be working.

    I sometimes think that, paradoxically, the more tolerance you show for minorities, the less threatened they feel, and the more they are included in the wider culture, the more quickly they assimilate.

    Anyway, there are some pretty famous people who are of "Italian" descent, who actually have Arbereshe descent.

    If you're American, you may be familiar with Regis Philbin. He always said he was half Italian, but that Italian is actually Arbereshe.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regis_Philbin

    A famous half Arbereshe Italian is Antonio Gramsci, the leader of the Italian Communist Party. Francesco Crispi, one of the leaders in the movement for Italian unification (associate and friend of Mazzini and Garibaldi) was born into an Arbereshe family, as was Tito Schipa, the great tenor. There are others, of course.
    First: there was not a vast Greek speaking areas throughout south Italy. First time hearing this. Too doubtful. There were areas of Greek settlements only afterward the ottoman rise throughout Balkans. So it happens after 1300 .
    Second: when you have time I recommend you to read about the Albanian renaissance. You will notice the important role played by the arbereshe of Italy, and their help done for the Albanian independence and Albanian national identity after a long, long ottoman invasion. Definitely the arbereshe of Italy never lost their national identity and they were part of the Albanian renaissance.
    Third: there is no yet a religious majority on Albanian population. There is a large sunny community, but less than 50% . They have their own religious leader. There are large other religions as the bektashi, orthodox, catholic, and protestant. All them have their own religious leaders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Both, Arberesh and Greeks of Southern Italy consider themselves Italians. There are no rivalries the way they are in the Balkans. I would guess that religiously Greeks too are under pope.
    Arberesh are gradually disappearing from Italian mosaic. Many have immigrated in other countries, another large portion of them has assimilated into Italians through losing their language and identity, and the one left are abandoning their settlements for bigger Italian cities for in search for opportunities. Maybe after another 100 years Arbereshe will be just history.
    Don't forget that the Albanian flag was sent by an arbereshe who was living in Spain or in France. Was one of the descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti- scanderbeg. He send the flag to the Albanian patriots during the independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    First: there was not a vast Greek speaking areas throughout south Italy. First time hearing this. Too doubtful. There were areas of Greek settlements only afterward the ottoman rise throughout Balkans. So it happens after 1300 .
    Second: when you have time I recommend you to read about the Albanian renaissance. You will notice the important role played by the arbereshe of Italy, and their help done for the Albanian independence and Albanian national identity after a long, long ottoman invasion. Definitely the arbereshe of Italy never lost their national identity and they were part of the Albanian renaissance.
    Third: there is no yet a religious majority on Albanian population. There is a large sunny community, but less than 50% . They have their own religious leader. There are large other religions as the bektashi, orthodox, catholic, and protestant. All them have their own religious leaders.
    How could large areas of southern Italy have not spoken Greek, when they were part of Magna Graecia for so many centuries? Even after Romans conquered it, the Greek language did not disappear. The historic record reveals that most people were probably bilingual in Latin and Greek, because documents, contracts, etc., are found in both language. The Greek language, perhaps a slightly different variant of it, was renewed during the centuries of Byzantine rule. The present day areas of Puglia, Calabria and Sicily were a province of Byzantium, with Byzantine Greek the official language. The religion was also of the "Greek" rite. It was only through the Latinization process engaged in by the Normans (partly by importing a lot of northern Italian settlers) and their successors that both language and religion changed.

    I'm not speaking of genetics here. Who knows how much actual "new" gene flow there was from Greece or Byzantium in those two periods. I'm speaking strictly of language and religion.

    I would recommend, for Sicily, "The History of Muslim Sicily", Leonard Chiarelli. You can also look at:

    Korhonen, Sicily in the Imperial Roman Period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catepanate_of_Italy

    http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7354.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language
    "Latin was spoken by the Roman occupation troops who garrisoned Sicily after Rome annexed the island (after the end of the First Punic War, ca. 261 BC). A historical feature shared by Sicily, the far south of Calabria, and the province of Lecce, is that during the Roman period, these areas were never completely Latinised. Greek remained the main language for the majority of the population. This helps explain the linguistic differences in these areas and those immediately to the north which were, more or less, Latinised (Hull)."

    " The whole of Sicily was controlled by Saracens at the elite level, although the general population remained a Greek speaking and predominantly Orthodox Christian population."

    There are innumerable other sources on the web.

    I'm sure there's an interesting story to tell about the ties between the Arbereshe and Albania proper, but it's not particularly relevant to the discussion we were having, since we were discussing the Arbereshe of the current day, and the fact that they have been disappearing as a minority group through intermarriage and identification with the larger Italian culture. That's not to say that you can't find some who have resisted assimilation, however.

    The figure of about 60% for Muslims in Albania was from a UN paper. Perhaps it's outdated. I would imagine that perhaps religious affiliation of any kind is on the decline there as it is everywhere else.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Don't forget that the Albanian flag was sent by an arbereshe who was living in Spain or in France. Was one of the descendants of Gjergj Kastrioti- scanderbeg. He send the flag to the Albanian patriots during the independence.
    what?

    The Albanian flag is the Byzantine danger flag, with litlle different eagle,
    search better the Byzantine flags


    there were 3 byzantine flags,

    1 yellow black
    2 yellow red
    3 black red

    yellow black meant protected by emperror laws and Christ
    yellow red meant emperror is here (personal flag)
    black red meant red alert, war is on, generals flag

    only Smyrna / Νικαια Nice empire used Green colour












    and to be correct Kastrioti flag had the war eagle of Pontic Komnenoi Κομνηνοι dynasty family from 1057 till 1204 (before Trebizond empire)


    and modern Greek flag is the emblem of Douka Δουκα family 1204
    Douka Duca family is connected with Ραγγαβης Raggaves family of 811


    search the φλαμουλα flamoulla (from Latin Vellum) of Byzantine families and armies

    the war flag of general Γ Μανιακης From Edessa in Middle East to Sicily and South Italy
    the same flag had Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας
    and with little diferent tail Kastrioti

    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    what?

    The Albanian flag is the Byzantine danger flag, with litlle different eagle,
    search better the Byzantine flags


    there were 3 byzantine flags,

    1 yellow black
    2 yellow red
    3 black red

    yellow black meant protected by emperror laws and Christ
    yellow red meant emperror is here (personal flag)
    black red meant red alert, war is on, generals flag

    only Smyrna / Νικαια Nice empire used Green colour












    and to be correct Kastrioti flag had the war eagle of Pontic Komnenoi Κομνηνοι dynasty family from 1057 till 1204 (before Trebizond empire)


    and modern Greek flag is the emblem of Douka Δουκα family 1204
    Douka Duca family is connected with Ραγγαβης Raggaves family of 811


    search the φλαμουλα flamoulla (from Latin Vellum) of Byzantine families and armies

    the war flag of general Γ Μανιακης From Edessa in Middle East to Sicily and South Italy
    the same flag had Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας
    and with little diferent tail Kastrioti

    The Albanian Flag is an adaption of George Kastriota family flag as a national flag. Kastriota belonged to Eastern Christian church or Orthodoxy. The double headed eagle at that time was a sign of strong faith to orthodoxy, and I think was a symbol of orthodox church also but with minor changes in color, shape and few extra details. Majority of Albanians at that time belonged to Byzantine church. Whatever was at that time, today double headed eagle is known as a symbol of Albanians. It will be so as long as Albanians will be alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How could large areas of southern Italy have not spoken Greek, when they were part of Magna Graecia for so many centuries? Even after Romans conquered it, the Greek language did not disappear. The historic record reveals that most people were probably bilingual in Latin and Greek, because documents, contracts, etc., are found in both language. The Greek language, perhaps a slightly different variant of it, was renewed during the centuries of Byzantine rule. The present day areas of Puglia, Calabria and Sicily were a province of Byzantium, with Byzantine Greek the official language. The religion was also of the "Greek" rite. It was only through the Latinization process engaged in by the Normans (partly by importing a lot of northern Italian settlers) and their successors that both language and religion changed.

    I'm not speaking of genetics here. Who knows how much actual "new" gene flow there was from Greece or Byzantium in those two periods. I'm speaking strictly of language and religion.

    I would recommend, for Sicily, "The History of Muslim Sicily", Leonard Chiarelli. You can also look at:

    Korhonen, Sicily in the Imperial Roman Period

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catepanate_of_Italy

    http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/7354.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language
    "Latin was spoken by the Roman occupation troops who garrisoned Sicily after Rome annexed the island (after the end of the First Punic War, ca. 261 BC). A historical feature shared by Sicily, the far south of Calabria, and the province of Lecce, is that during the Roman period, these areas were never completely Latinised. Greek remained the main language for the majority of the population. This helps explain the linguistic differences in these areas and those immediately to the north which were, more or less, Latinised (Hull)."

    " The whole of Sicily was controlled by Saracens at the elite level, although the general population remained a Greek speaking and predominantly Orthodox Christian population."

    There are innumerable other sources on the web.

    I'm sure there's an interesting story to tell about the ties between the Arbereshe and Albania proper, but it's not particularly relevant to the discussion we were having, since we were discussing the Arbereshe of the current day, and the fact that they have been disappearing as a minority group through intermarriage and identification with the larger Italian culture. That's not to say that you can't find some who have resisted assimilation, however.

    The figure of about 60% for Muslims in Albania was from a UN paper. Perhaps it's outdated. I would imagine that perhaps religious affiliation of any kind is on the decline there as it is everywhere else.
    Magna graecia has nothing to do with the medieval era or for more the recent times. Magna graecia was an entity prior the Roman rise throughout the Mediterranean. Magna graecia were called the entire regions of south Italy colonised by the hellenes earlier 200 bce. Afterwards everything got latinized. The same happened with the Hellenic colonies of east Adriatic and east Ionian sea. But if you feel better to believe this Greek ancient continuity of south Italy, you are free, go on.
    As I already said there are two branches of Muslims in Albania. One are sunny which have their own leader, and the other is beltashi (Shiite) which have a different leadership. All the religions in Albania have their own distinct leadership. There is not a majority. There are less than 60% Muslim believers in Albania ,and those are divided in Sunni and bektashi. Unfortunately we don't know which is the exact number of this division.
    Keep in your mind, in north Albania is a catholic church which is s place also used for pilgrimage. It's a holy place for the Albanian believers. There you can see many Albanian Muslims as pilgrims. The same happening on the Tomor mountain . There is a holy place of the Albanian bektashi believers, on top of the mountain. You can see there also many Christians pilgrims among with Muslims.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    what?

    The Albanian flag is the Byzantine danger flag, with litlle different eagle,
    search better the Byzantine flags


    there were 3 byzantine flags,

    1 yellow black
    2 yellow red
    3 black red

    yellow black meant protected by emperror laws and Christ
    yellow red meant emperror is here (personal flag)
    black red meant red alert, war is on, generals flag

    only Smyrna / Νικαια Nice empire used Green colour












    and to be correct Kastrioti flag had the war eagle of Pontic Komnenoi Κομνηνοι dynasty family from 1057 till 1204 (before Trebizond empire)


    and modern Greek flag is the emblem of Douka Δουκα family 1204
    Douka Duca family is connected with Ραγγαβης Raggaves family of 811


    search the φλαμουλα flamoulla (from Latin Vellum) of Byzantine families and armies

    the war flag of general Γ Μανιακης From Edessa in Middle East to Sicily and South Italy
    the same flag had Κροκοδειλος Κλαδας
    and with little diferent tail Kastrioti

    What is your point. Read about Albanian history before talking. Of course the Albanian flag has his origin from the Romans. A large part of the Albanian (yllirian) language is latinized . They were part of the Roman empire since the years 160 bce and till the years when the Slavs destroyed the east Roman empire. The Albanian flag has a Roman origin.

    The second language of Albania is Italian. For Albanians is too easy to learn Italian.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    The Albanian Flag is an adaption of George Kastriota family flag as a national flag. Kastriota belonged to Eastern Christian church or Orthodoxy. The double headed eagle at that time was a sign of strong faith to orthodoxy, and I think was a symbol of orthodox church also but with minor changes in color, shape and few extra details. Majority of Albanians at that time belonged to Byzantine church. Whatever was at that time, today double headed eagle is known as a symbol of Albanians. It will be so as long as Albanians will be alive.
    The eagle was the holy symbol of the Romans. It was one head eagle. Afterward the Roman empire became divided on east empire and West empire, we see this new eagle with two heads. It's a Roman symbol. The inhabitants of the east identified themselves as Romans. They called themselves "romi" . When the ottomans conquered the Constantinople, the empire was non-existent. The Albanian flag is almost the same as was the Kastrioti' s flag.

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