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Thread: shapes and collective classifications: attempt

  1. #51
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    Thanks for post.
    Where do you see I speak here of polygeny ?
    And what is polygeny ? We are all mammals which evolved from not-mammals (reptiles?) milions of years ago.
    The notion of race is not so clear : since what % of genetic differences we consider a race exist, even in the world of animals ? Are all genetic differences of the same value ? The only strict barrier is the impossibility of durable reproduction. (Yet, it seems lions and tigers spite of different but close species have produced hybrids which could themselves reproduce with one of the parents races in the subsequent generation : females only, seemingly, it’s true). And this impossibility for the most is linked to chromosomal accidents. Otherwise, we can only speak of matings between « brothers » and « sisters », or close cousins, or remote cousins.
    Concerning Coon, I looked only at the describing part of his work on Europe.
    In what sense can genetists claim CHG are a different pop from EHG, WHG or Natufians?
    Not long ago, scientists claimed we were one OOA offsprings, now they admit we have some crossings with Neanderthal and/or Denisova : can we speak of race here ? SO maybe, some multigeny, finally ?
    But concerning the links between genetics and history, we have to take in account every sign of partial or total isolation, and (can be during a relatively short time, it does not matter), manifested in autosomes, uniparental haplos or phenotypes, it’s to say autosomes results with external manifestations. And also every sign of relatively brutal rupture of isolation we call « crossing » (at the nay-race level, we can say every sexual mating (+ fecondation!) is at the same time a crossing and a no-crossing act). The question is the evolution of these markers which is not by force palallelic and not at the same speed.
    The German speaking doc’ with drawed skulls is not accurate according to me – I suppose the ‘aurignacian’ dolicho’ is the so called ‘brünn’ type and the brachy’ result what we call ‘dinaric » type ? If the case, I think the occipital of the second is in reality more steppy/vertical/flat that the brachy ‘croma’ (my ‘borreby’s A) ; concerning the sketche, it seems saying the ‘croma’ knowed a shortening of skull withtout broadening, what I find surprising ! (in fact, ‘borreby’s skulls are of very greater volume than the ‘dinaric’ ones* – BTW, I think the brachycephalization of ‘brünn’ types produced something different from ‘dinaric’ which seems asking for some (broadely said) ‘mediter’ type. Coon noticed the differences of occipital angles betwen classical ‘dinarics’ and ‘borrebys’ (lambda flattening) among Montenegro people. For the few I saw in other parts it seems it’s sensible.
    * : total length+breath of skulls : the greater in Europe : Basque/Gascogne, Ireland, West and North Britain, Iceland, Northwest Germany, Wallonia, West Norway, parts of Denmark – the smaller : South Italy, Eastern Mediterranea, Dinaric lands (except Montenegro!) : as a whole, West Mediteraneans have greater heads than eastern ones...
    I don’t see the apport of the K12 try. It concerns only cultural pops and not the deep ancestry ; was it to debunk every link between old shapes and old pops ? But some features are very old and came from remote ancestors, inchanged in some cases, when other genetic inherited traits evolved by mutations, crossings and redistribution. To reconize some typical ancient features in today INDIVIDUALS in pops (at some not negligible%) doesn’t signify in my posts the individuals bearing them are stayed the same inchanged « race », but it establishes a remote link at the level of the genes responsible of these traits.
    ‘croma’ and ‘brünn’ descendants covered until Mesolithic a large world part from Atlantic to Asia ; and the brachy’tion is maybe not only an European phenomenon ; robust brachy’s have been found too among some Steppic tribes and their origin is not so clear todate. In Europe, the first robust brachy’s of this kind (‘borreby’ of any sort and ‘dinaric’ seem appearing only about the 3000 BC or a bit earlier not too soon, rather between Germany and Denmark (except in the Alps, maybe around 8000 BC, but different, smaller statured and headed). 3500/3000 BC could mark already some intrusions from East ? (noteworthy : Andronovo people showed more mesocephalic more straight foreheaded crania than Afanasyevo, so maybe a brachycephals input, and NOT a typically east-asian one ? The same for some tribes of the North Pontic lands. It’s true a rather brachy pop inhabited the Southwestern Siberia with shapes unclassable between ‘europoid’ and ‘east-asian’ according to some authors (would it not have been the richer pop in ‘ANE’ element ?)
    Elsewhere at the same dates (3500/3000 BC)in Western Europe, brachys were only small groups of individuals, prospectors at first sight, and uniquely on the ‘dinaric’ side. South the Caucasus it seems they appeared only about the 2000 BC (some ‘borreby’like and ‘dinaric’like people, until in Syria and Lebanon, today). I think we lack more ancient skulls for some regions and dates.
    Your K2 run says you have almost no European Paleo or Meso ascendance, what I think is partly false. But the Steppic elements had WHG and EHG, both from Paleo parents, EHG is only kind of WHG + ‘ANE’ addition if I rely on someones opinion. But here autosomals don’t help for shapes because globally speaking the descendants of ‘croma’ and ‘brünn’ types shared same genes (a mix of genes with the same label, rather?); so if today pops (rare) don’t share same numerically dominance of these ancient shapes, it could not be seen in autosomal global admixture (except the ones responsible for the shape, it they are known and studied apart, but this is a recent thing in genetics).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Thanks for post. Where do you see I speak here of polygeny ? And what is polygeny ? We are all mammals which evolved from not-mammals (reptiles?) milions of years ago. The notion of race is not so clear : since what % of genetic differences we consider a race exist, even in the world of animals ? Are all genetic differences of the same value ? The only strict barrier is the impossibility of durable reproduction. (Yet, it seems lions and tigers spite of different but close species have produced hybrids which could themselves reproduce with one of the parents races in the subsequent generation : females only, seemingly, it’s true). And this impossibility for the most is linked to chromosomal accidents. Otherwise, we can only speak of matings between « brothers » and « sisters », or close cousins, or remote cousins. Concerning Coon, I looked only at the describing part of his work on Europe. In what sense can genetists claim CHG are a different pop from EHG, WHG or Natufians? Not long ago, scientists claimed we were one OOA offsprings, now they admit we have some crossings with Neanderthal and/or Denisova : can we speak of race here ? SO maybe, some multigeny, finally ? But concerning the links between genetics and history, we have to take in account every sign of partial or total isolation, and (can be during a relatively short time, it does not matter), manifested in autosomes, uniparental haplos or phenotypes, it’s to say autosomes results with external manifestations. And also every sign of relatively brutal rupture of isolation we call « crossing » (at the nay-race level, we can say every sexual mating (+ fecondation!) is at the same time a crossing and a no-crossing act). The question is the evolution of these markers which is not by force palallelic and not at the same speed. The German speaking doc’ with drawed skulls is not accurate according to me – I suppose the ‘aurignacian’ dolicho’ is the so called ‘brünn’ type and the brachy’ result what we call ‘dinaric » type ? If the case, I think the occipital of the second is in reality more steppy/vertical/flat that the brachy ‘croma’ (my ‘borreby’s A) ; concerning the sketche, it seems saying the ‘croma’ knowed a shortening of skull withtout broadening, what I find surprising ! (in fact, ‘borreby’s skulls are of very greater volume than the ‘dinaric’ ones* – BTW, I think the brachycephalization of ‘brünn’ types produced something different from ‘dinaric’ which seems asking for some (broadely said) ‘mediter’ type. Coon noticed the differences of occipital angles betwen classical ‘dinarics’ and ‘borrebys’ (lambda flattening) among Montenegro people. For the few I saw in other parts it seems it’s sensible. * : total length+breath of skulls : the greater in Europe : Basque/Gascogne, Ireland, West and North Britain, Iceland, Northwest Germany, Wallonia, West Norway, parts of Denmark – the smaller : South Italy, Eastern Mediterranea, Dinaric lands (except Montenegro!) : as a whole, West Mediteraneans have greater heads than eastern ones... I don’t see the apport of the K12 try. It concerns only cultural pops and not the deep ancestry ; was it to debunk every link between old shapes and old pops ? But some features are very old and came from remote ancestors, inchanged in some cases, when other genetic inherited traits evolved by mutations, crossings and redistribution. To reconize some typical ancient features in today INDIVIDUALS in pops (at some not negligible%) doesn’t signify in my posts the individuals bearing them are stayed the same inchanged « race », but it establishes a remote link at the level of the genes responsible of these traits. ‘croma’ and ‘brünn’ descendants covered until Mesolithic a large world part from Atlantic to Asia ; and the brachy’tion is maybe not only an European phenomenon ; robust brachy’s have been found too among some Steppic tribes and their origin is not so clear todate. In Europe, the first robust brachy’s of this kind (‘borreby’ of any sort and ‘dinaric’ seem appearing only about the 3000 BC or a bit earlier not too soon, rather between Germany and Denmark (except in the Alps, maybe around 8000 BC, but different, smaller statured and headed). 3500/3000 BC could mark already some intrusions from East ? (noteworthy : Andronovo people showed more mesocephalic more straight foreheaded crania than Afanasyevo, so maybe a brachycephals input, and NOT a typically east-asian one ? The same for some tribes of the North Pontic lands. It’s true a rather brachy pop inhabited the Southwestern Siberia with shapes unclassable between ‘europoid’ and ‘east-asian’ according to some authors (would it not have been the richer pop in ‘ANE’ element ?) Elsewhere at the same dates (3500/3000 BC)in Western Europe, brachys were only small groups of individuals, prospectors at first sight, and uniquely on the ‘dinaric’ side. South the Caucasus it seems they appeared only about the 2000 BC (some ‘borreby’like and ‘dinaric’like people, until in Syria and Lebanon, today). I think we lack more ancient skulls for some regions and dates. Your K2 run says you have almost no European Paleo or Meso ascendance, what I think is partly false. But the Steppic elements had WHG and EHG, both from Paleo parents, EHG is only kind of WHG + ‘ANE’ addition if I rely on someones opinion. But here autosomals don’t help for shapes because globally speaking the descendants of ‘croma’ and ‘brünn’ types shared same genes (a mix of genes with the same label, rather?); so if today pops (rare) don’t share same numerically dominance of these ancient shapes, it could not be seen in autosomal global admixture (except the ones responsible for the shape, it they are known and studied apart, but this is a recent thing in genetics).
    Thanks Moesan. Good explanation. I guess because of the typology, that reminds of C.S. Coon, I projected the thoughts of Coon on you. You made this clear that's not the case! Excusez-moi...
    I will think twice about the rest of the text...and I'am looking forward too further postings about this subject.

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    just for the fun, not with too big pretention, a try to represent the CWC 'corded' typical element in the CWC culture; surely not pure, but selected in a certain population in a certain place, before mating and crossing in Western Europe, in NW for the most; I don't exclude a dolicho robust 'brnnoid' type in the mean and also something close to what we think of the 'nordic' type, this last some type evolved maybe in the peri-Ladoga region upon some ancient 'mediter' migration from South (hypothetic at this stage). Don'r base yourself on pigmentation - I 'll add other pics with other influences (more Yamna?) - and keep in mind it's a game so ...
    Attachment 10193Attachment 10194Attachment 10195Attachment 10192Attachment 10191

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    just for the fun, not with too big pretention, a try to represent the CWC 'corded' typical element in the CWC culture; surely not pure, but selected in a certain population in a certain place, before mating and crossing in Western Europe, in NW for the most; I don't exclude a dolicho robust 'brünnoid' type in the mean and also something close to what we think of the 'nordic' type, this last some type evolved maybe in the peri-Ladoga region upon some ancient 'mediter' migration from South (hypothetic at this stage). Don'r base yourself on pigmentation - I 'll add other pics with other influences (more Yamna?) - and keep in mind it's a game so ...
    Attachment 10193Attachment 10194Attachment 10195Attachment 10192Attachment 10191
    Hmmmm the attach doesn’t work Monsanto may be try mupload? Easy to use.....


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    Northerner, have you problems to open my attachments; I tried them again, and when clicking on the 'anhangs' I obtain the pictures without problem; maybe I did not understand well your post?
    goeden avond

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    other elements possible among the 'corded' type mean

    Attachment 10200Attachment 10201Attachment 10202Attachment 10203

    None of them shows the same inherited details from parents types, but it's very possible the mean these men can form was what we see among the 'corded' type before it lost weight in mixes

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    Something I don't understand:
    when I attach a picture, it first appears in full size and clear, then it turn into a link (anhang) with possibility to see the pic when clicking, and, a few days later, when I click, i have an error message!!!

    I'm disperate and I think i'm going to put an end to my hopeless and sad life by slow but continual absorbtion of alcohol... luckily enough I have a bottle of good wine at hand so...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Something I don't understand:
    when I attach a picture, it first appears in full size and clear, then it turn into a link (anhang) with possibility to see the pic when clicking, and, a few days later, when I click, i have an error message!!!

    I'm disperate and I think i'm going to put an end to my hopeless and sad life by slow but continual absorbtion of alcohol... luckily enough I have a bottle of good wine at hand so...
    Moesan, this feature no longer works. Here's what to do:
    Go to imgur.com. Click on new post. Click on browse to download your own photo, or paste in the url. The picture will show up. Click on share links. I use the option for forums. Click on copy. Then, on a post here, click on the picture frame, delete check mark by clicking on it, and then paste in the url.

    It sounds like a lot, but when you get used to it, it's very quick.


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    Dear Moesan,

    could you tell something about Rui Filipe (1968-1994), a former FC Porto player?

    ruifilipe.jpg

    Merci!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuno77 View Post
    Dear Moesan,

    could you tell something about Rui Filipe (1968-1994), a former FC Porto player?

    ruifilipe.jpg

    Merci!
    Not too much looking at only one pic like this one:
    true dark blond? possible, but now they make so truelike dyeings... I remember Artur Correia, who had light brown head hair and "blondished" (lightened) them a bit; that said, I know the blond hairs (1,5% for allover genuine Portugueses) is less rare in some parts of Portugal, principally in Minho; eyes colour? uneasy to say here: seemingly intermediary, kind of greenish something? skin colour: impossible to say on pics, even more when speaking of sportmen - the head hair, just a bit wavy, checks as well classical 'med' and 'nordic'; combed like this impossible to evaluate the degree of baldness -
    face features: lack of other angles to judge; not possible to see the forehead shape; the face doesn't seem to be typcially classical 'atlanto-mediter'; I would bet rather a mix of little 'mediter' and classical 'nordic' crossing: jaw and chink could very well fit this first glance; the nose is a bit too fleshy for true 'nordic', but not too long; a bit too large nostrils;
    the lips, with dominance of lower lip on the upper one is not 'nordic'; rather 'mediter' as a whole, without input of 'indo-iranian' type whose mouth is greater;
    it's a glance analysis by an amateur and based only on typology (but typology is not completely useless at some level of precision) - this guy could pass in Britain and in Belgium very easily, in some other countries too but less evidently -
    I regreat now I didn't pay more attention in past to ears and eyebrows shapes and sizes, because they tell something about ancestry... (tears...LOL)
    Don't take all this with too much seriousness.
    Have a good week.

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    Merci pour la réponse!


    Yes, it's not easy to make an analysis based on just one picture. Even when searching for "Rui Filipe FC Porto" in Google Images there isn't a lot of pictures.
    Attachment 10290Attachment 10291
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_juovnWGPlM...pe_dragoes.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QR9bgnZDUG...g/s1600/r2.jpg


    And he passed away in 1994 with 26 years of age at the prime of his football career for Porto and Portugal.


    He comes more or less from the same region of my ancestors. It's a Celtic area according to the History books and in those isolated mountains there are lots of Megalithic monuments such as dolmens and engravings.


    So based on History and his phenotype, I would bet that he could also be a R-L21, which isn't that common in Iberia.




    Merci et à bientôt!
    Last edited by nuno77; 26-06-18 at 19:39. Reason: Image links

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Moesan, this feature no longer works. Here's what to do:
    Go to imgur.com. Click on new post. Click on browse to download your own photo, or paste in the url. The picture will show up. Click on share links. I use the option for forums. Click on copy. Then, on a post here, click on the picture frame, delete check mark by clicking on it, and then paste in the url.

    It sounds like a lot, but when you get used to it, it's very quick.
    Thanks, Angela. I 'll try it when I have time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nuno77 View Post
    Merci pour la réponse!


    Yes, it's not easy to make an analysis based on just one picture. Even when searching for "Rui Filipe FC Porto" in Google Images there isn't a lot of pictures.
    Attachment 10290Attachment 10291
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_juovnWGPlM...pe_dragoes.jpg
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QR9bgnZDUG...g/s1600/r2.jpg


    And he passed away in 1994 with 26 years of age at the prime of his football career for Porto and Portugal.


    He comes more or less from the same region of my ancestors. It's a Celtic area according to the History books and in those isolated mountains there are lots of Megalithic monuments such as dolmens and engravings.


    So based on History and his phenotype, I would bet that he could also be a R-L21, which isn't that common in Iberia.




    Merci et bientôt!
    The 'anhang' system doesn't work, it's not a surprise; but on 3/4 profile pic', his nose and mouth are not too 'nordic', confirming my 'diagnostic'; other elements are not visible enough.
    Thanks for the pic's nevertheless. ba noite! (correct?)

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    as a whole, globally speaking and taking the fleshy parts in account, 'med' more than 'nordic' (remnants unkown, too less clues) - sorry for these last hesitating precisions

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    I think the following facial phenotypes as seen in the australian population is a more promising classification.

    https://www.opsm.com.au/style/face-shapes

    and sketches:

    https://www.deniseortakales.com/pape...er-face-shapes

    No archaic connotations any longer....

    In combination with the ci-index, pigmentation (hair, eyes, skin) and length it could give a nice impression of the different European regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    I think the following facial phenotypes as seen in the australian population is a more promising classification.

    https://www.opsm.com.au/style/face-shapes

    and sketches:

    https://www.deniseortakales.com/pape...er-face-shapes

    No archaic connotations any longer....

    In combination with the ci-index, pigmentation (hair, eyes, skin) and length it could give a nice impression of the different European regions.
    Personally I don't see too much what to do with these definitions and examples: so much elements are taking part in the overall shape, and I saw often enough faces disjunct from skull and forehead (but maybe the cheekbones are more coupled with skull?); and I think more than a locus is acting in skull shape, owing to a lot of different shapes after some generations of crossings, without speaking of recent intragroup mutations, phenomenons of gracilisation or congenital diseases ;

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Personally I don't see too much what to do with these definitions and examples: so much elements are taking part in the overall shape, and I saw often enough faces disjunct from skull and forehead (but maybe the cheekbones are more coupled with skull?); and I think more than a locus is acting in skull shape, owing to a lot of different shapes after some generations of crossings, without speaking of recent intragroup mutations, phenomenons of gracilisation or congenital diseases ;
    Yes that could be the case, but for verbs like cro-magnoid is this even more the case....the terminology of the old classifiers are suggestion a continuity, and ‘purist’ that never exists and has never exist....we should throw verbs like borreby, out of the window....


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    nevertheless these old definitions like 'borreby' depticted some statistical reality (realities in fact), the question being: could it be spoken of a type relatively stable over a respectable number of generations and forming the bulk of the pop, or of some relatively common result of simple crossing?
    If crossing of different types, it produces always lesser people very close to the theorical type features , and it produces a high %age of gradual intermediary types and also a high enough %age of very different types, someones close to the "parent" types (if there were someones before) and even types that get farther than the different "founding" types from the mean; I already said that in the so called 'borreby' types, even if taking the "type" in a broad sense, we can see two very different ancient elements influences, what doesn't exclude others less evident.
    "type" is based upon phenotypical features that, appearing as "coupled" within them in the most of individuals of a pop, can suggest that at least at the genetical level concerning these visible features, some stable isolation in some mesological context can have occurred creating a partial raciation whatever what could say the total autosomal picture. Sorry, I'm not sure my english makes it clear enough.

    All the way, crossings/admixtures don't exclude the usefulness of rigorous phenotypical analysises, applied upon a not too long span of time (say: some few thousends of years).
    And some specific traits seem having a long life, and we cannot always evocate convergent independant mutations, even if "we" have already discovered some of them.
    about pre- and current- and post-Natufians periods it seems evident to me that external pops inputs was at work pointing to different directions of geographical origins and the ancient auDNA does not contradict this IMO, when we look at recent works.
    goedenavond; ik heb hunger en dorst (goed?)

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    concerning 'cromagnon', the serious old books spoke of the first ones the most of them in Dordogne - for the later period they used the term of 'cromagnoid' and true, I find it bad enough because among them some show the introgressions of other ancient pops and not only insitu drift, what confirms anthropology but more surely ancient DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    nevertheless these old definitions like 'borreby' depticted some statistical reality (realities in fact), the question being: could it be spoken of a type relatively stable over a respectable number of generations and forming the bulk of the pop, or of some relatively common result of simple crossing?
    If crossing of different types, it produces always lesser people very close to the theorical type features , and it produces a high %age of gradual intermediary types and also a high enough %age of very different types, someones close to the "parent" types (if there were someones before) and even types that get farther than the different "founding" types from the mean; I already said that in the so called 'borreby' types, even if taking the "type" in a broad sense, we can see two very different ancient elements influences, what doesn't exclude others less evident.
    "type" is based upon phenotypical features that, appearing as "coupled" within them in the most of individuals of a pop, can suggest that at least at the genetical level concerning these visible features, some stable isolation in some mesological context can have occurred creating a partial raciation whatever what could say the total autosomal picture. Sorry, I'm not sure my english makes it clear enough.

    All the way, crossings/admixtures don't exclude the usefulness of rigorous phenotypical analysises, applied upon a not too long span of time (say: some few thousends of years).
    And some specific traits seem having a long life, and we cannot always evocate convergent independant mutations, even if "we" have already discovered some of them.
    about pre- and current- and post-Natufians periods it seems evident to me that external pops inputs was at work pointing to different directions of geographical origins and the ancient auDNA does not contradict this IMO, when we look at recent works.
    goedenavond; ik heb hunger en dorst (goed?)
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    “these visible features, some stable isolation in some mesological context can have occurred creating a partial raciation whatever what could say the total autosomal picture.”

    I ‘m not aware of such isolated area’s in Europe. And certainly not in the last centuries.

    When I take my region, the outmost northeastern part of the Netherlands, as an example than the autosomal mixture is very influenced by NW Germany. That would mean a same kind of phenotype.....ok judging from seen there some truth in it.... But does this represent some partial raciation some isolation from let's say Poland or Northern France? That would be the Coonian Borrebey That’s for a next posting.


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    Last edited by Northener; 02-11-18 at 20:25.

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    I spoke of "true" types; not any pop today can says it is completely of so a type - these types are all a bit older, and IMO found birth when some provisional isolats existed with a narrowing of bilateral genes exchanges, as well as tribals systems, playing upon not too numerous pops - say: 6000/10000 years ago?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    concerning 'cromagnon', the serious old books spoke of the first ones the most of them in Dordogne - for the later period they used the term of 'cromagnoid' and true, I find it bad enough because among them some show the introgressions of other ancient pops and not only insitu drift, what confirms anthropology but more surely ancient DNA.
    The 'cro-magnoid' type would be in (NW) Europe the Borreby.

    And as far as I know this is the original Borreby type:



    But this phenotype, see this brow ridges and this very very sloping forehead is not all very familiar in my region nor in NW Germany!

    There are more phenotypes like mine, pretty steep forehead, and most of all the heads that are very long and broad (my bizygomatic breadth is 160 mm so hard to get glasses), and moderate or slightly brachycephaly. This type is more common in NE Netherlands and NW Germany. That would be the Borreby but this Borreby doesn't resemble the one and only original!

    The original Borreby ^^^ does resemble my father in law a bit.....(especially the sloping forehead) but the best man is from NW France in stead of NW Germany ;)
    Last edited by Northener; 02-11-18 at 22:03.

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    Agree with you.
    This 'borreby' type is the one who gave birth to the naming; that said, a man is not a type - and we know that later what was put into this bag-name by classical anthropologs was a mix of diverse types sharing only sub-brachycephally and more or less tendancy to light pigmentation and rather high stature, but with big individual differences for cheekbones flaring, under jaw breadth, skull height, orbits shapes and size, frontal profile ... -
    what I can say is that among modern men, not so far in time (5000 y.) is that someones in North Europe show still some ressemblances with this man (so maybe type but not by force: it could only be a common enough result of a simple crossing) - other thing: this type, aside brachycephalisation, shows strong ties with dolichocephallic most brutal 'brnn' (in this Brno region, true 'cromagoid' descendants lived close to subsequent 'brnnoid' types of very different and more brutal shapes, and later mated with them) - so this closeness of this original 'borreby' of Denmark to 'brnnoid' types excludes we can name it a direct 'cromagnoid' -

    the more 'cromagnoid' so called 'borreby' collegue type except sub-brachycephally, shows very different shapes: more steep forehead, less browridges, longer flatter skull roof spite same index, smaller orbits, broader under jaw... found too among northern Europe pops - but I still don't know if we have here true types (homozigoty of every bone trait) or one of these ancient dolichocehpallic 'pattern' types crossed with a brachycephallic type? all the way, as already said, a skull is not sufficient to define a type ...
    what is true is that these more or less well defined "types" travelled and when we find in a far enough region the same types in some proportion we can question ourselves about a possible introgression so an historical clue for demic input, at least over some centuries and even kilo-years.

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    Agree with you.
    This 'borreby' type is the one who gave birth to the naming; that said, a man is not a type - and we know that later what was put into this bag-name by classical anthropologs was a mix of diverse types sharing only sub-brachycephally and more or less tendancy to light pigmentation and rather high stature, but with big individual differences for cheekbones flaring, under jaw breadth, skull height, orbits shapes and size, frontal profile ... -
    what I can say is that among modern men, not so far in time (5000 y.) is that someones in North Europe show still some ressemblances with this man (so maybe type but not by force: it could only be a common enough result of a simple crossing) - other thing: this type, aside brachycephalisation, shows strong ties with dolichocephallic most brutal 'brnn' (in this Brno region, true 'cromagoid' descendants lived close to subsequent 'brnnoid' types of very different and more brutal shapes, and later mated with them) - so this closeness of this original 'borreby' of Denmark to 'brnnoid' types excludes we can name it a direct 'cromagnoid' -

    the more 'cromagnoid' so called 'borreby' collegue type except sub-brachycephally, shows very different shapes: more steep forehead, less browridges, longer flatter skull roof spite same index, smaller orbits, broader under jaw... found too among northern Europe pops - but I still don't know if we have here true types (homozigoty of every bone trait) or one of these ancient dolichocehpallic 'pattern' types crossed with a brachycephallic type? all the way, as already said, a skull is not sufficient to define a type ...
    what is true is that these more or less well defined "types" travelled and when we find in a far enough region the same types in some proportion we can question ourselves about a possible introgression so an historical clue for demic input, at least over some centuries and even kilo-years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Agree with you.
    This 'borreby' type is the one who gave birth to the naming; that said, a man is not a type - and we know that later what was put into this bag-name by classical anthropologs was a mix of diverse types sharing only sub-brachycephally and more or less tendancy to light pigmentation and rather high stature, but with big individual differences for cheekbones flaring, under jaw breadth, skull height, orbits shapes and size, frontal profile ... -
    what I can say is that among modern men, not so far in time (5000 y.) is that someones in North Europe show still some ressemblances with this man (so maybe type but not by force: it could only be a common enough result of a simple crossing) - other thing: this type, aside brachycephalisation, shows strong ties with dolichocephallic most brutal 'br�nn' (in this Brno region, true 'cromagoid' descendants lived close to subsequent 'br�nnoid' types of very different and more brutal shapes, and later mated with them) - so this closeness of this original 'borreby' of Denmark to 'br�nnoid' types excludes we can name it a direct 'cromagnoid' -

    the more 'cromagnoid' so called 'borreby' collegue type except sub-brachycephally, shows very different shapes: more steep forehead, less browridges, longer flatter skull roof spite same index, smaller orbits, broader under jaw... found too among northern Europe pops - but I still don't know if we have here true types (homozigoty of every bone trait) or one of these ancient dolichocehpallic 'pattern' types crossed with a brachycephallic type? all the way, as already said, a skull is not sufficient to define a type ...
    what is true is that these more or less well defined "types" travelled and when we find in a far enough region the same types in some proportion we can question ourselves about a possible introgression so an historical clue for demic input, at least over some centuries and even kilo-years.
    Thanks Moesan! I guess "brorreby" and "brunn" is all too much in the Coonian frame. I guess dead end street. Although endlessly recycled on the internet (in some fora).

    So this closeness of this original 'borreby' of Denmark to 'brunnoid' types excludes we can name it a direct 'cromagnoid'
    In how fare is Brunn and Borreby a Coonian frame, that even in his book is not wel defined and the connected pictures are sometimes messy.

    That said what is connected to "Brunn" or "Borreby" ? Coon and the SNPA kind of classifiers give this connection:

    Upper Paleolithic survivor
    Modern Borrebys are derived, historically, from the old northwestern European coastal fishing population
    The distinctive "Irish" features which characterize the Brünn are to some extent recalled in the Scandinavian Cro-Magnid stock
    Huh huh.

    Meanwhile what brings us the modern DNA research.....

    Let's assume the Brunn and Borreby were connected with the Ertebolle culture, that's the really HG/fishing culture of NW Europe/Southern Scandinavia.

    But after that there were at least two major influences:
    - the Neolithic shift, migration from the Mediterranean to NW Europe/ Southern Scandinavia (see the Gokhem DNA that is Med).
    - the Steppe, Bronze Age shift, we recently have publications how deep is the impact of the Bell Beaker people (and phenotype!?). We now have mostly R1b types in NW Europe mostly connected nowadays with Steppe influence.

    In the modern NW Europe gene pool how much is left of the Ertebolle genes?
    I guess mostly mixed with (or in some extent fused away) by the Med. genes and Steppe genes. Of course on their turn these Med. genes and Steppe genes are connected with a HG type. But that's not the HG genotype and guess not the phenotype of the Ertebølle HG population!

    So may be the 'Borreby" and "Brunn" phenotypes are more pointing at Steppe influences than that of the Ertebølle!

    So in the end is the Borreby/ Brunn are modern European phenotypes that ar genetically rooted in the Beaker influence (of course mixed with the older Neolithic/HG residu of NW Europe).

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