Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 38 of 38

Thread: Bones of Macedonian King Philip II, Alexander the Great's father, have been found.

  1. #26
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,920
    Points
    18,601
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,601, Level: 41
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    but could inside the bones small amounts be left? μυελος των οστων, bone myelic traces?
    ok I know that DNA can not be exctrat after cremation,
    but I wonder why they ask permission to do DNA tests?
    I read somewhere that the teeth COULD be the most reliable source of DNA in this type of cremations. If not mistaken some types of dna tests have been done even after cremation. The subject is a little confusing, maybe some experts can give a little more light on the subject, and how reliable the whole process is.

  2. #27
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    18-05-14
    Posts
    144
    Points
    131
    Level
    1
    Points: 131, Level: 1
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 19
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Slavic
    Country: Slovenia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    As far I know the best preservation occures indeed in the teeth; bones are generally good isolators from the environment around them (water, micro organisms, fungi, insects). When cells break apart after death, the inner content comes out... majority of these substances later mold into the minerals in the bone; hydroxyapatite in the bone (which is produced by Osteocytes - bone cells).
    As far I know from my lectures of Human Anatomy & Physiology, I would suggest for your DNA extraction from teeth and from the irregularly shaped bones or flat bones(for example: pelvis, sternum, skull, ribs, spine and blade), because there exist 2 types of red and yellow bone marrow. Red marrow has more cells than yellow marrow... When we are born the red bone marrow prevails, when we grow up (ends when we are about 18 years old) there is bellow 50% of red bone marrow in a mature man or woman, which is replaced by the yellow marrow, which is "yellow" because of the fat... How ever yellow bone marrow can in accidents (bone fractures, bleeding around the bone area) transforms itself into a red bone marrow; I believe we can study or detect fractures and bleeding (if the person for example died because of bleeding) under microscopic, chemical analysis of the marrow...

    DNA will be destroyed also because of the temperatures around them... We know that proteins in human body start to coagulate already above 42 degrees Celsius, DNA starts to break apart around the 42,5 degrees Celsius(Phosphates) also; Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine around 316-360 degrees Celsius, Deoxyribose (sugar) around 90 degrees, Phosphates around 42,4 degrees..((that's why is the human temperature so important for normal life (biological) functions bellow 41 degrees, otherwise we die (start falling apart)...So, there is a better preservation of your DNA in more cooler climates than in tropical areas...
    there exist 2 types of DNA in our cells; mtDNA or mDNA which is located in your mitochondria (which is also called "maternal DNA"; inherited from the mother) and the DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also called "paternal", because it is inherited from fathers to sons...


    mDNA is better protected than Y DNA, because it is already surrounded & protected by the more "thicker" membrane or mitochondrial membrane, matrix & Lakunes (special structures in the mitochondria organelles)... Mitochondria in our cells is the indication/proof of archaic symbiosis & evolution of 2 different cells; one microorganism (cell) which penetrated into other cell & both have had benefits from each other...

    PS: You gave me an idea to study the partially destroyed DNA because of temperatures...and perhaps make some qualitative tests out of it...

    - Some articles about the isolation & analysis of the ancient DNA:

    http://szd.si/user_files/vsebina/Zdr...rec/171-81.pdf

    http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cmulli...enzymology.pdf
    Last edited by Vedun; 14-10-14 at 14:31.

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-11
    Posts
    139
    Points
    5,844
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,844, Level: 22
    Level completed: 59%, Points required for next Level: 206
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Netherlands



    So Philippos remains were found cremated; are those of the woman cremated too?

  4. #29
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,920
    Points
    18,601
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,601, Level: 41
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Sennevini View Post
    So Philippos remains were found cremated; are those of the woman cremated too?
    article says 'Along with the cremated remains of Philip II, the burial, commonly known as Tomb II, also contained the bones of a woman warrior, possibly the daughter of the Skythian King Athea' although not clearly put, I presume it was cremated too.

  5. #30
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,920
    Points
    18,601
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,601, Level: 41
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Vedun View Post
    As far I know the best preservation occures indeed in the teeth; bones are generally good isolators from the environment around them (water, micro organisms, fungi, insects). When cells break apart after death, the inner content comes out... majority of these substances later mold into the minerals in the bone; hydroxyapatite in the bone (which is produced by Osteocytes - bone cells).
    As far I know from my lectures of Human Anatomy & Physiology, I would suggest for your DNA extraction from teeth and from the irregularly shaped bones or flat bones(for example: pelvis, sternum, skull, ribs, spine and blade), because there exist 2 types of red and yellow bone marrow. Red marrow has more cells than yellow marrow... When we are born the red bone marrow prevails, when we grow up (ends when we are about 18 years old) there is bellow 50% of red bone marrow in a mature man or woman, which is replaced by the yellow marrow, which is "yellow" because of the fat... How ever yellow bone marrow can in accidents (bone fractures, bleeding around the bone area) transforms itself into a red bone marrow; I believe we can study or detect fractures and bleeding (if the person for example died because of bleeding) under microscopic, chemical analysis of the marrow...

    DNA will be destroyed also because of the temperatures around them... We know that proteins in human body start to coagulate already above 42 degrees Celsius, DNA starts to break apart around the 42,5 degrees Celsius(Phosphates) also; Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine, Thymine around 316-360 degrees Celsius, Deoxyribose (sugar) around 90 degrees, Phosphates around 42,4 degrees..((that's why is the human temperature so important for normal life (biological) functions bellow 41 degrees, otherwise we die (start falling apart)...So, there is a better preservation of your DNA in more cooler climates than in tropical areas...
    there exist 2 types of DNA in our cells; mtDNA or mDNA which is located in your mitochondria (which is also called "maternal DNA"; inherited from the mother) and the DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also called "paternal", because it is inherited from fathers to sons...


    mDNA is better protected than Y DNA, because it is already surrounded & protected by the more "thicker" membrane or mitochondrial membrane, matrix & Lakunes (special structures in the mitochondria organelles)... Mitochondria in our cells is the indication/proof of archaic symbiosis & evolution of 2 different cells; one microorganism (cell) which penetrated into other cell & both have had benefits from each other...

    PS: You gave me an idea to study the partially destroyed DNA because of temperatures...and perhaps make some qualitative tests out of it...

    - Some articles about the isolation & analysis of the ancient DNA:

    http://szd.si/user_files/vsebina/Zdr...rec/171-81.pdf

    http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/cmulli...enzymology.pdf
    Thanks for that info and links Verdun. You surely are well informed. Your experiment sounds interesting and let us know how it goes.

    I am still wondering though what method does Marie Lacan (example) use? she had results from some locations in the south of Europe, while others claim that from the alps downwards its too risky to have correct results with ancient dna (!). Who is right and who is wrong? I wont comment on DNA extracted from Egyptian mummies because those were much better preserved.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    7,360
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,360, Level: 25
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 190
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It would be great if they could test Philip's genome as well as his Scythian wife (Alexander's mother). This way we could get Alexander's two haplogroups and infer his autosomal composition.
    Alexander's mother was not Scythian. The Scythian woman was another wife of Philip. He had several wives.
    Alexander's mother, Olympias, was from a Molossian tribe from Epirus, which was a Greek tribal state.

    I didn't know that Philip had a Scythian wive. In any case, would be interesting to find out about Philips haplogroup.

  7. #32
    Banned Achievements:
    Overdrive250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered

    Join Date
    24-08-14
    Posts
    467


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Alexander's mother was not Scythian. The Scythian woman was another wife of Philip. He had several wives.
    Alexander's mother, Olympias, was from a Molossian tribe from Epirus, which was a Greek tribal state.
    I didn't know that Philip had a Scythian wive. In any case, would be interesting to find out about Philips haplogroup.
    Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great.
    "Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian, i.e., Albanian, blood."

    Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

    Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    7,360
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,360, Level: 25
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 190
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great.
    "Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian, i.e., Albanian, blood."

    Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

    Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*
    Wikipedia, Brittanica. Anything of the like will do. It is basically common knowledge that Ancient Epirus was inhabited by Greek speakers since the Neolthic. There are always counter opinions in history I suppose. Especially when nationalism gets mixed in.

    Anyway, Sir William Woodthorpe has a nice hypothesis. But it is mostly fair speculation of his time. In the early 20th century historians had rather limited evidence regarding the Ancient Macedonians. There's been many excavations since, continuing to this day. Image is getting pretty clear about their Greekness.
    You never know though. Maybe Alexander had some Illyrian blood too, maybe Thracian, maybe Hittite. Who is to say for sure?

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,210
    Points
    40,854
    Level
    62
    Points: 40,854, Level: 62
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 796
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn (February 26, 1869 – November 7, 1957) was a British classical scholar and a writer. He wrote extensively on the Hellenistic world, particularly on Alexander the Great.
    "Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olympia) Illyrian, i.e., Albanian, blood."

    Who told you that Molossoi were Greek tribe? Wikipedia?

    Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood!”*

    from probably to certain is far dinstance,

    besides soon we know, surely in the next 5-10 years,

    see you then Lazar... back to Marlok

    mire sevini Δερβιτσανη


    ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΕΣ
    a Greek word autochthonos

    ΑΥΤΟΧΘΟΝΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΑΡΧΕΓΟΝΟΣ ΕΛΛΑΣ

    guess who?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  10. #35
    Banned Achievements:
    Overdrive250 Experience PointsThree Friends1 year registered

    Join Date
    24-08-14
    Posts
    467


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Wikipedia, Brittanica. Anything of the like will do. It is basically common knowledge that Ancient Epirus was inhabited by Greek speakers since the Neolthic. There are always counter opinions in history I suppose. Especially when nationalism gets mixed in.

    Anyway, Sir William Woodthorpe has a nice hypothesis. But it is mostly fair speculation of his time. In the early 20th century historians had rather limited evidence regarding the Ancient Macedonians. There's been many excavations since, continuing to this day. Image is getting pretty clear about their Greekness.
    You never know though. Maybe Alexander had some Illyrian blood too, maybe Thracian, maybe Hittite. Who is to say for sure?




    Why you do not open a thread about Epir and let`s discuss there. But with one condition, to make a civilized discussion, no nationalism. Ok?

    He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians and Indo-Greeks, thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical Western and Indian sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.

    I don`t think that Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn was a speculator.
    About ancient macedonian i have expressed my opinion here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...omps-off-topic

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    7,360
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,360, Level: 25
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 190
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    Why you do not open a thread about Epir and let`s discuss there. But with one condition, to make a civilized discussion, no nationalism. Ok?

    He also researched extensively on the history of the Greco-Bactrians and Indo-Greeks, thereby documenting a nearly lost area of history. In his book The Greeks in Bactria and India, Tarn relied on classical Western and Indian sources, as well as numismatics, to give a multi-faceted account of their dynastic rule and conquest.

    I don`t think that Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn was a speculator.
    About ancient macedonian i have expressed my opinion here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...omps-off-topic
    There´s too many junk about these kind of topics all over the internet. I hate to start another one about Epirus.

    As for Sir William Woodthorpe, ofcourse he speculates. Historians, good or bad, speculate to fill in the missing dots. I argue that he would have had a different opinion today regarding the Macedonians. As a good historian, he would follow the evidence.

  12. #37
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    16-02-14
    Location
    Regina
    Posts
    254
    Points
    1,772
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,772, Level: 11
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 78
    Overall activity: 21.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a2a1a L233
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c3

    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: Canada



    They definitely have Phillip's bones because extensive analysis has been done on the injuries he suffered, I don't think this would have been possible from a bunch of ashes.

  13. #38
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,920
    Points
    18,601
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,601, Level: 41
    Level completed: 62%, Points required for next Level: 349
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    They definitely have Phillip's bones because extensive analysis has been done on the injuries he suffered, I don't think this would have been possible from a bunch of ashes.
    The article clearly states that they are cremated remains. Do not confuse current cremation practice where a dead body is turned to ashes (including bones). The burning of the dead body would leave lots of bones (harder to burn completely). They used to put the remains in caskets or urns and put offerings with them with some kind of burial ritual.

    Modern cremation is turning the whole body into ash. During the process (since DNA is our interest) would have been highly damaged during the cremation process, even if bone pieces are still visible (and not turned to ash)

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •