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Thread: Autosomal analysis of the genomes of Iron Age Britons and Anglo-Saxons

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Was there a final news which genome belongs to whom?
    apparently both male samples are iron age and all female are anglo saxon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Keep open what possibility, 'there's always been a Flanders'?
    What?!? Are we going to have an "agenda ***** fight"? Seriously?? Well, not with me, Taranis. Not with me. EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    That is correct, Germanic *rīkjaz is derived from Celtic *rīgjo-.

    Even though "Brennus" was to my knowledge not the leader of any Germanic tribe: there were two persons named "Brennus", one leader of the Senones in Italy, the other leader of the Galatian Volcae Tectosages.
    Sorry, that was Brinno of the Cananefates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    And yes, this wide contact zone existed, (approximately, from the Rhine Delta to the western Carpathians - as I said, you do have Germanic place names at the lower Rhine, like "Asciburgium"), but the idea that the Belgae were (linguistically, at least) Germanic, and that the border between Lugdunensis and Belgica (the rivers Seine and marked a major linguistic boundary does not hold up.
    But that is not what I suggested. I suggested a very fuzzy contact zone where Germanics ans Celts mixed and Celtic goddesses got Germanic suffixes, Celts claimed Germanic origins and mixed tribes lived. That is what I consider a contact zone, and I know of a number of Dutch archeologists that hold similar opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What, in your opinion, is Germanic in origin about "Matrona"? The name is clearly Celtic, not Germanic: the Proto-Germanic word for "mother" is *mōðēr (English "mother, German "Mutter"), while the Proto-Celtic one is *mātīr (Irish "mathair").
    The word could also be simply be derived from Latin. I recall the cult being connected to the Ubii.
    Last edited by epoch; 09-11-14 at 21:13. Reason: see below

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    What?!? Are we going to have an "agenda ***** fight"? Seriously?? Well, not with me, Taranis. Not with me.
    The " " should have been a giveaway: I wasn't really serious with that comment. If you got that wrong, I would hereby like to honestly apologize. I don't think we're going to have an agenda fight because 1) I for one have no agenda (other than maybe "if you have a hypothesis, you need data to back it up" ) and 2) our opinions don't seem to be that different.

    Sorry, that was Brinno of the Cananefates.
    The Canananefates were a tribe of the Rhine Delta (from approximately the area around modern Den Haag, I think), and they were certainly Germanic.

    But that is not what I suggested. I suggested a very fuzzy contact zone where Germanics ans Celts mixed and Celtic goddesses got Germanic suffixes, Celts claimed Germanic origins and mixed tribes lived. That is what I consider a contact zone, and I know of a number of Dutch archeologists that hold similar opinions.
    This I totally agree on. My point merely is that the focus point is towards the vicinity of the Rhine (at least in the West) - at least before the Migration Period (that event, of course, changed the situation considerably).

    The word could also be simply be derived from Latin. I recall the cult being connected to the Ubii.
    Yes, it could be Latin, too: the Latin word for 'mother' is "mater", and Latin, like the Celtic languages, preserves *ā where Proto-Germanic shifts it to *ō.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The " " should have been a giveaway: I wasn't really serious with that comment. If you got that wrong, I would hereby like to honestly apologize. I don't think we're going to have an agenda fight because 1) I for one have no agenda (other than maybe "if you have a hypothesis, you need data to back it up" )
    Neither was I, Taranis. There is absolutely no need for apology. I should have written a smiley as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    and 2) our opinions don't seem to be that different.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Canananefates were a tribe of the Rhine Delta (from approximately the area around modern Den Haag, I think), and they were certainly Germanic.
    Which goes to show how little we can derive from someone bearing a Celtic name, is what I meant to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    This I totally agree on. My point merely is that the focus point is towards the vicinity of the Rhine (at least in the West) - at least before the Migration Period (that event, of course, changed the situation considerably).



    Yes, it could be Latin, too: the Latin word for 'mother' is "mater", and Latin, like the Celtic languages, preserves *ā where Proto-Germanic shifts it to *ō.
    The thing is, so many things that we thought of as debunked came back with a vengeance. You never know..

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    Wow a lot of technical stuff so what is the verdict now

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    [QUOTE=epoch;443871]



    Which goes to show how little we can derive from someone bearing a Celtic name, is what I meant to say.

    so everybody can say what he want: latin tribe names, latin placenames, people latin names, genetic differences : all that is without any value so where is the problem???
    everybody is free! I like that... freedom

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    latin people never stayed in Italy! they arrived there lately?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    more seriously my opinion is that this concept of mixed tribes has to be proved before building theories: people can sexually mix and cross easier than cultures: what criteria we have? language (when we have the chance to find traces) - I have some hard work figuring out something as two populations mixing and creating a melting pot new culture more or less in balance - ONE culture overgoes the other even if incorporating some language substrata of this other: but as some final stage the selfconscience of tribe members is in accord with the dominant culture of this trive: they speak germanic, or they speak celtic, so they name theirselves "Germans" (classical meaning) or "Celts" - and I've some difficulty too to believe they took celtic names when they were germanic speakers and gave celtic names to their setlements (or the reverse).
    the ebglish example is the perfect opposite to what I wrote above but this mixed culture (linguistically) was born in a STATE CONTEXT even if feudal, it was, I think, impossible in a clanic context as it was in Iron Ages or before in Northern Europe -
    but I'm far here from the genuine topic
    good evening

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    What is the autasomal DNA diffrence between some from Cornwall and someone from Norfolk wouldn't there be a difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post



    Which goes to show how little we can derive from someone bearing a Celtic name, is what I meant to say.
    so everybody can say what he want: latin tribe names, latin placenames, people latin names, genetic differences : all that is without any value so where is the problem???
    everybody is free! I like that... freedom
    No no no, Moesan. What I meant to say was that Celtic names were once fashionable amongst Germanics. Just as Germanic names were fashionable amongst Gauls under the Merovingians. Actually, a lot of current day French names still are of Germanic origin. So a Germanic carrying a Celtic does mot make that man a Celt.

    Sorry. No freedom ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I have some hard work figuring out something as two populations mixing and creating a melting pot new culture more or less in balance - ONE culture overgoes the other even if incorporating some language substrata of this other: but as some final stage the selfconscience of tribe members is in accord with the dominant culture of this trive: they speak germanic, or they speak celtic, so they name theirselves "Germans" (classical meaning) or "Celts" - and I've some difficulty too to believe they took celtic names when they were germanic speakers and gave celtic names to their setlements (or the reverse).
    The Cimbrians that harried the Roman empire with the Teutones in a century before Christ had a king that carried a celtic name (Boiorix) although that could've been a nom the guerre or a nickname.

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    Maciamo,what about the Siberian admixture,from K12?
    From current day populations,Finns have it and also North Russians,I guess North Swedes and North Norwegians should have also,do you think is from Hunns in the Anglo-Saxon 1?
    And how come current day Britons do not have anymore African admixture,neither Siberian+East Asian?
    EDIT:
    Found this,considering the population from those days Denmark:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen#Other_names
    "In the eighth century the inrush of the Vikings in force began to be felt all over Pictland. These Vikings were pagans and savages of the most unrestrained and pitiless type. They were composed of Finn-Gall or Norwegians, and of Dubh-Gall or Danes. The latter were a mixed breed, with a Hunnish strain in them.[5]"
    So if the genetic material of Anglo-Saxon-1 is from about 1300 years ago,it is said that around 8th century,so that can be very good a little after the year 700,exactly from the period when the Vikings were raiding there.
    R1b-L11 could show very well Danish origins.
    Last edited by mihaitzateo; 18-11-14 at 01:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    more seriously my opinion is that this concept of mixed tribes has to be proved before building theories: people can sexually mix and cross easier than cultures: what criteria we have? language (when we have the chance to find traces) - I have some hard work figuring out something as two populations mixing and creating a melting pot new culture more or less in balance - ONE culture overgoes the other even if incorporating some language substrata of this other: but as some final stage the selfconscience of tribe members is in accord with the dominant culture of this trive: they speak germanic, or they speak celtic, so they name theirselves "Germans" (classical meaning) or "Celts" - and I've some difficulty too to believe they took celtic names when they were germanic speakers and gave celtic names to their setlements (or the reverse).
    the ebglish example is the perfect opposite to what I wrote above but this mixed culture (linguistically) was born in a STATE CONTEXT even if feudal, it was, I think, impossible in a clanic context as it was in Iron Ages or before in Northern Europe -
    but I'm far here from the genuine topic
    good evening
    How many settlement names in the US have either Latin names or names originally given by displaced natives and how many personal names come from Latin?

    So if Celtic culture was much more advanced when the Teutonics first made contact and they took some settlements off Celts after they'd got used to calling it by the original Celtic name then maybe the same things happened?

    (I'd guess this is only likely to happen in the border zone between the two cultures.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    No no no, Moesan. What I meant to say was that Celtic names were once fashionable amongst Germanics. Just as Germanic names were fashionable amongst Gauls under the Merovingians. Actually, a lot of current day French names still are of Germanic origin. So a Germanic carrying a Celtic does mot make that man a Celt.

    Sorry. No freedom ;)


    your comparing things that cannot be compared so simplisticly
    Celts and Germanics at these time had not huge territories, "national", as Franks had after having put their feet in the ancient Roman boundaries in a political world fashioned by the Romans i think - so I have some difficulty to swallow Celts tribes had Germanics minorities inside their small territorries: old clans lands were NOT big states territories - I think at some time these clans were more attached to ligneages than to ground even if it changed progressively -
    we know (by linguistic for the most, Cleyts have had influence upon the first Germanics at some stage of forces desiquilibrium BUT WE HAVE NO PROOF FOR I KNOW OF CELTS RULING GERMANICS AND INCORPORATING THEM INTO A POLITICAL FRAME creatong a cultural mixed cuntry, so we have yet to prove genuine proud Germanics took Celtic personal names . I don't say it is impossbile, I say it's a very easy way to say what we want to say without any proof...

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    [QUOTE=epoch;444393]The Cimbrians that harried the Roman empire with the Teutones in a century before Christ had a king that carried a celtic name (Boiorix) although that could've been a nom the guerre or a nickname.[/QUOTE

    for I know it has never be proved Cimbrians were germanic speaking... ir s the very question!!! thay have some traces of scythian inspired art but it seems it's the Celts who were the more in contact with the Scythian world, not the Germanics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    How many settlement names in the US have either Latin names or names originally given by displaced natives and how many personal names come from Latin?

    So if Celtic culture was much more advanced when the Teutonics first made contact and they took some settlements off Celts after they'd got used to calling it by the original Celtic name then maybe the same things happened?

    (I'd guess this is only likely to happen in the border zone between the two cultures.)

    same answer as to EPOCH: you're comparing things of very different times too simplisticly I think -
    the settlements in the USA were made in a time when a lot of people knew read and write, someones having a good taste of general culture and so some snobism (concerning Latin or not english european placenames) - concerning the placenames in Belgia, you can say the Germanics kept these names and I agree, but these names at this time were not given by snobism but inherited from previous Celtic tribes, it's not the same thing - SO THE QUESTION REMAINS: WERE THERE ALREADY GERMANIC TRIBES IN OLD BELGIA AT ROMAN TIMES? KEEP IN MIND THE ANGLO-SAXON FIRST EMIGRANTS DIDN'T TAKE INDIAN NAMES TO GIVE TO THEIR CHILDREN EVEN IF THEY RETAINED INDIAN PLACENAMES...
    I wrote about all this stuff because someones (not you precisely) appeared to me as pretending there never has been genuine Celtic tribes in Central-Northern Germany, what is wrong - other people are restless rewriting History I find that boring sometimes: classical History is rather to be precised and corrected, not denied 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    your comparing things that cannot be compared so simplisticly
    Celts and Germanics at these time had not huge territories, "national", as Franks had after having put their feet in the ancient Roman boundaries in a political world fashioned by the Romans i think - so I have some difficulty to swallow Celts tribes had Germanics minorities inside their small territorries: old clans lands were NOT big states territories - I think at some time these clans were more attached to ligneages than to ground even if it changed progressively -
    we know (by linguistic for the most, Cleyts have had influence upon the first Germanics at some stage of forces desiquilibrium BUT WE HAVE NO PROOF FOR I KNOW OF CELTS RULING GERMANICS AND INCORPORATING THEM INTO A POLITICAL FRAME creatong a cultural mixed cuntry, so we have yet to prove genuine proud Germanics took Celtic personal names . I don't say it is impossbile, I say it's a very easy way to say what we want to say without any proof...
    "I have some difficulty to swallow Celts tribes had Germanics minorities inside their small territorries"

    I'd agree about that. I'm thinking more of tribal confederations.


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    when a lot of people knew read and write


    Yes I agree that will determine the scale of it happening so if it happened it was likely to be very localized and small scale.

    so some snobism (concerning Latin or not english european placenames)
    Yes, cultural dominance would likely be the main factor there.

    in Belgia, you can say the Germanics kept these names and I agree, but these names at this time were not given by snobism but inherited from previous Celtic tribes, it's not the same thing
    Yes I agree. The place names (if it happened) would likely be the result of a gradual expansion where traders, trappers, mercenaries etc ahead of the expansion got used to calling settlements by their original name - like "London" or "Dakota".

    Personal names would more likely be a status thing and so only likely to happen in a context where the chief of a Germanic group was a minority in a culture they thought was more advanced or perhaps because they wanted to be diplomatic e.g. a Celtic tribal confederation which included some Germanic sub-tribes (and in that case possibly
    even *given* a Celtic name by the Celtic confederation leader as a mark of submission).

    So I agree with you that the circumstances where this sort of thing is likely to happen are quite specific however I think that situation is highly likely to have occurred multiple times on the border zone with Celtic confederations inviting small tribes over the Rhine as mercenaries during wars with other Celtic confederations.


    I wrote about all this stuff because someones (not you precisely) appeared to me as pretending there never has been genuine Celtic tribes in Central-Northern Germany, what is wrong
    Fair enough. My thinking is more the opposite of that - that Celtic confederations fighting each other over the centuries and inviting Germanic tribes in as mercenaries is likely how the Celts *lost* Central-Northern Germany.
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 19-11-14 at 18:44.

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    So is eastern and western different in autosomal dna

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    No no no, Moesan. What I meant to say was that Celtic names were once fashionable amongst Germanics. Just as Germanic names were fashionable amongst Gauls under the Merovingians. Actually, a lot of current day French names still are of Germanic origin. So a Germanic carrying a Celtic does mot make that man a Celt.

    Sorry. No freedom ;)
    I just noticed this, and I have to disagree with your premise. The Merovingians were the first Frankish dynasty to rule in France. The Franks were a Germanic tribe that took Gaul away from the Romans and turned the country into France. And when Germanic people have Germanic names, I don't see that as proof of Celts borrowing German names. Of course, the Franks weren't numerous enough to change the language of the country to Frankish - modern French is mainly descended from Latin, as we all know. But descendants of those German speaking Frankish invaders still live in France, which is why a fair number of modern French surnames are actually German. It has nothing to do with Celts adopting German names or Germans adopting Celtic names.

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    always half off topic but i'll answer grey Wanderers and Aberdeen

    to Grey Wanderers: I repeat we have no proof, neither me nor you, but the concept of federations of tribes applies I think more to later eastern germanic (Goths, Vandals of every sort) and steppic tribes (Alans, Huns, Turks, Magyars ...) after decline of Roman Empire, when A PART of these ethnies begun rovering everywhere with occasions to raid some rich places - in these cases they were in some way mercenaries the ones to the others - I don't think it was the case BC in the Seine to Weser area:what I know about this time (Iron) was some tribes leaving old Belgia (settled from NE-France to Central Germany not Belgium of today) to go to Iberia, tribe by tribe: emigration for the most and not military rovering - tribes were well distinguished one from another - the only germanic (considered) tribe I'm sure is the Cempsi with a set going to Britain (East I beleive) and another set to Iberia ...
    I red in Wikipedia the Pelandones or Cerindones (?) of Belgia, emigrated into N-E Iberia, would have been a mix of Celts and Illyrians, but it's important speaking only a Qw- celtic language
    (see what I wrote sooner about culture and language in these cases of assimilation) - this "Illyrians" part is to be proved even if possible - Illyrians were seen everywhere at some stage of archeology and History, they "lost ground" more recently even if we know by archeo-metric-anthropology a foreign elite element penetrated the tumuli proto-celtic world at La Tène Age -

    to Aberdeen:
    I beg your pardon because you are supporting my party in some way this discussion about cultures, ethnies and namings -
    as I said before, the Frankish State based upon Roman Empire remnants has nothing i common with the clannic system of old celtic tribes of bronze or Iron Ages (and germanic, the same) -
    the assimilated germanic names in France - not the Alsacian or Flemish modern ones - are very too numerous to be the image of Frankish or Alaman or Burgundian settlers: at some stage, in the countries conquired by germanic elites, their germanic names became the higher snobism (in Italy as well as in Iberia) - but it was stronger in France (ex-Gaul) - the personal names, after that christian names, were overwhelmingly germanic in France (specially in North) before they became surnames (I could give you a list, but it would be very boring so numerous they are) EVEN AMONG GALLO-ROMAN PEOPLE WHO DID NOT SPEAK GERMANIC AT ALL (the placenames, in comparison, are very rare outside the core area of Franks settlements) so the germanic surnames in France are mistaking concerning the true weight of Franks and others in it -

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    to Aberdeen:

    that said, I agree with you concerning the pre-State tribes periods

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    a proof of this difference between celtic and germanic (modern sense) tribes in N-W Europe could effectively be in the fact that the most or quasi totality of celtic tribes emigrating southwards came from Belgia and not from other parts of Gaul, closer to Iberia: pression of Germanics tribes gaining ground over the Celts in Germany? the exception could be the Cempsi, supposed to be settled at first just over the mouths of Rhine, and maybe too acquainted to Celts to can stay among their germanic brethren? (but I know the "exception confirming the rule" is a too easy way of reasoning)

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    [QUOTE=MOESAN;444498]
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The Cimbrians that harried the Roman empire with the Teutones in a century before Christ had a king that carried a celtic name (Boiorix) although that could've been a nom the guerre or a nickname.[/QUOTE

    for I know it has never be proved Cimbrians were germanic speaking... ir s the very question!!! thay have some traces of scythian inspired art but it seems it's the Celts who were the more in contact with the Scythian world, not the Germanics
    The cimbrians from jutland are not the same cimbrians that fought the Romans in Italy..........to eventually still live in the 7 cimbri towns of northern Italy
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    MOESAN

    to Grey Wanderers: I repeat we have no proof
    Sure, I'm not saying it did happen. I was just suggesting we have a model from Roman times of what can happen when you invite tough tribes into your territory as feoderates so it seems possible to me the same thing might have happened earlier with the Celts. Did any of the chiefs of tribes settled as feoderates by the Romans take Roman names for example?

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