Autosomal analysis of the genomes of Iron Age Britons and Anglo-Saxons

How many settlement names in the US have either Latin names or names originally given by displaced natives and how many personal names come from Latin?

So if Celtic culture was much more advanced when the Teutonics first made contact and they took some settlements off Celts after they'd got used to calling it by the original Celtic name then maybe the same things happened?

(I'd guess this is only likely to happen in the border zone between the two cultures.)

same answer as to EPOCH: you're comparing things of very different times too simplisticly I think -
the settlements in the USA were made in a time when a lot of people knew read and write, someones having a good taste of general culture and so some snobism (concerning Latin or not english european placenames) - concerning the placenames in Belgia, you can say the Germanics kept these names and I agree, but these names at this time were not given by snobism but inherited from previous Celtic tribes, it's not the same thing - SO THE QUESTION REMAINS: WERE THERE ALREADY GERMANIC TRIBES IN OLD BELGIA AT ROMAN TIMES? KEEP IN MIND THE ANGLO-SAXON FIRST EMIGRANTS DIDN'T TAKE INDIAN NAMES TO GIVE TO THEIR CHILDREN EVEN IF THEY RETAINED INDIAN PLACENAMES...
I wrote about all this stuff because someones (not you precisely) appeared to me as pretending there never has been genuine Celtic tribes in Central-Northern Germany, what is wrong - other people are restless rewriting History I find that boring sometimes: classical History is rather to be precised and corrected, not denied 100%
 

your comparing things that cannot be compared so simplisticly
Celts and Germanics at these time had not huge territories, "national", as Franks had after having put their feet in the ancient Roman boundaries in a political world fashioned by the Romans i think - so I have some difficulty to swallow Celts tribes had Germanics minorities inside their small territorries: old clans lands were NOT big states territories - I think at some time these clans were more attached to ligneages than to ground even if it changed progressively -
we know (by linguistic for the most, Cleyts have had influence upon the first Germanics at some stage of forces desiquilibrium BUT WE HAVE NO PROOF FOR I KNOW OF CELTS RULING GERMANICS AND INCORPORATING THEM INTO A POLITICAL FRAME creatong a cultural mixed cuntry, so we have yet to prove genuine proud Germanics took Celtic personal names . I don't say it is impossbile, I say it's a very easy way to say what we want to say without any proof...

"I have some difficulty to swallow Celts tribes had Germanics minorities inside their small territorries"

I'd agree about that. I'm thinking more of tribal confederations.

 
when a lot of people knew read and write


Yes I agree that will determine the scale of it happening so if it happened it was likely to be very localized and small scale.

so some snobism (concerning Latin or not english european placenames)

Yes, cultural dominance would likely be the main factor there.

in Belgia, you can say the Germanics kept these names and I agree, but these names at this time were not given by snobism but inherited from previous Celtic tribes, it's not the same thing

Yes I agree. The place names (if it happened) would likely be the result of a gradual expansion where traders, trappers, mercenaries etc ahead of the expansion got used to calling settlements by their original name - like "London" or "Dakota".

Personal names would more likely be a status thing and so only likely to happen in a context where the chief of a Germanic group was a minority in a culture they thought was more advanced or perhaps because they wanted to be diplomatic e.g. a Celtic tribal confederation which included some Germanic sub-tribes (and in that case possibly
even *given* a Celtic name by the Celtic confederation leader as a mark of submission).

So I agree with you that the circumstances where this sort of thing is likely to happen are quite specific however I think that situation is highly likely to have occurred multiple times on the border zone with Celtic confederations inviting small tribes over the Rhine as mercenaries during wars with other Celtic confederations.


I wrote about all this stuff because someones (not you precisely) appeared to me as pretending there never has been genuine Celtic tribes in Central-Northern Germany, what is wrong

Fair enough. My thinking is more the opposite of that - that Celtic confederations fighting each other over the centuries and inviting Germanic tribes in as mercenaries is likely how the Celts *lost* Central-Northern Germany.
 
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So is eastern and western different in autosomal dna
 
No no no, Moesan. What I meant to say was that Celtic names were once fashionable amongst Germanics. Just as Germanic names were fashionable amongst Gauls under the Merovingians. Actually, a lot of current day French names still are of Germanic origin. So a Germanic carrying a Celtic does mot make that man a Celt.

Sorry. No freedom ;)

I just noticed this, and I have to disagree with your premise. The Merovingians were the first Frankish dynasty to rule in France. The Franks were a Germanic tribe that took Gaul away from the Romans and turned the country into France. And when Germanic people have Germanic names, I don't see that as proof of Celts borrowing German names. Of course, the Franks weren't numerous enough to change the language of the country to Frankish - modern French is mainly descended from Latin, as we all know. But descendants of those German speaking Frankish invaders still live in France, which is why a fair number of modern French surnames are actually German. It has nothing to do with Celts adopting German names or Germans adopting Celtic names.
 
always half off topic but i'll answer grey Wanderers and Aberdeen

to Grey Wanderers: I repeat we have no proof, neither me nor you, but the concept of federations of tribes applies I think more to later eastern germanic (Goths, Vandals of every sort) and steppic tribes (Alans, Huns, Turks, Magyars ...) after decline of Roman Empire, when A PART of these ethnies begun rovering everywhere with occasions to raid some rich places - in these cases they were in some way mercenaries the ones to the others - I don't think it was the case BC in the Seine to Weser area:what I know about this time (Iron) was some tribes leaving old Belgia (settled from NE-France to Central Germany not Belgium of today) to go to Iberia, tribe by tribe: emigration for the most and not military rovering - tribes were well distinguished one from another - the only germanic (considered) tribe I'm sure is the Cempsi with a set going to Britain (East I beleive) and another set to Iberia ...
I red in Wikipedia the Pelandones or Cerindones (?) of Belgia, emigrated into N-E Iberia, would have been a mix of Celts and Illyrians, but it's important speaking only a Qw- celtic language
(see what I wrote sooner about culture and language in these cases of assimilation) - this "Illyrians" part is to be proved even if possible - Illyrians were seen everywhere at some stage of archeology and History, they "lost ground" more recently even if we know by archeo-metric-anthropology a foreign elite element penetrated the tumuli proto-celtic world at La Tène Age -

to Aberdeen:
I beg your pardon because you are supporting my party in some way this discussion about cultures, ethnies and namings -
as I said before, the Frankish State based upon Roman Empire remnants has nothing i common with the clannic system of old celtic tribes of bronze or Iron Ages (and germanic, the same) -
the assimilated germanic names in France - not the Alsacian or Flemish modern ones - are very too numerous to be the image of Frankish or Alaman or Burgundian settlers: at some stage, in the countries conquired by germanic elites, their germanic names became the higher snobism (in Italy as well as in Iberia) - but it was stronger in France (ex-Gaul) - the personal names, after that christian names, were overwhelmingly germanic in France (specially in North) before they became surnames (I could give you a list, but it would be very boring so numerous they are) EVEN AMONG GALLO-ROMAN PEOPLE WHO DID NOT SPEAK GERMANIC AT ALL (the placenames, in comparison, are very rare outside the core area of Franks settlements) so the germanic surnames in France are mistaking concerning the true weight of Franks and others in it -
 
to Aberdeen:

that said, I agree with you concerning the pre-State tribes periods
 
a proof of this difference between celtic and germanic (modern sense) tribes in N-W Europe could effectively be in the fact that the most or quasi totality of celtic tribes emigrating southwards came from Belgia and not from other parts of Gaul, closer to Iberia: pression of Germanics tribes gaining ground over the Celts in Germany? the exception could be the Cempsi, supposed to be settled at first just over the mouths of Rhine, and maybe too acquainted to Celts to can stay among their germanic brethren? (but I know the "exception confirming the rule" is a too easy way of reasoning)
 
The Cimbrians that harried the Roman empire with the Teutones in a century before Christ had a king that carried a celtic name (Boiorix) although that could've been a nom the guerre or a nickname.[/QUOTE

for I know it has never be proved Cimbrians were germanic speaking... ir s the very question!!! thay have some traces of scythian inspired art but it seems it's the Celts who were the more in contact with the Scythian world, not the Germanics

The cimbrians from jutland are not the same cimbrians that fought the Romans in Italy..........to eventually still live in the 7 cimbri towns of northern Italy
 
MOESAN

to Grey Wanderers: I repeat we have no proof

Sure, I'm not saying it did happen. I was just suggesting we have a model from Roman times of what can happen when you invite tough tribes into your territory as feoderates so it seems possible to me the same thing might have happened earlier with the Celts. Did any of the chiefs of tribes settled as feoderates by the Romans take Roman names for example?
 
MOESAN



Sure, I'm not saying it did happen. I was just suggesting we have a model from Roman times of what can happen when you invite tough tribes into your territory as feoderates so it seems possible to me the same thing might have happened earlier with the Celts. Did any of the chiefs of tribes settled as feoderates by the Romans take Roman names for example?

I have no data concerning that, sorry - I'll try to find some sources but... It's true that elites are the first ones to change names and dress and habits...
 

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