Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 57

Thread: Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula

  1. #26
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa.
    .
    We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them. I think you will find that the work has not been done. In particular, there has been, to my knowledge, no in depth analysis of E-M81 at a sufficient level of resolution to decide how much came at what time, unless it's present in the paper I linked to upthread, which is behind a pay wall. Perhaps someone can get access for us.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    23-04-11
    Posts
    606


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them.
    Actually, that conclusion is based in the link's conclusion from the original post. And I agree with it.

  3. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We normally try not to rely on "suspicions" here. If you have scientific papers which have examined the issue specifically and concluded that this is the case, I'm sure we would all be interested in reading them. I think you will find that the work has not been done. In particular, there has been, to my knowledge, no in depth analysis of E-M81 at a sufficient level of resolution to decide how much came at what time, unless it's present in the paper I linked to upthread, which is behind a pay wall. Perhaps someone can get access for us.
    Don't mind him. There is also no evidence of Iberian admixture in North Africans, as the latter carry almost 0% R1b, and most of it is of Italic origin from the Romans.

  4. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-11
    Posts
    713


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    According to the History of the Jews in Spain, "there were about 120 Jewish communities in Christian Spain around 1300, with somewhere around half a million or more Jews". This site gives an estimated population of 9 million for Iberia around 1340. Keeping historical population proportions between Spain and Portugal (roughly 3.5 to 1), that's about 7 million for Spain alone. In other words the Jewish population was at least 7% at that time.
    As it usually happens with WikiPedia, this is a purely gratuitous claim. Whoever wrote that references no sources for such estimates that can be consulted. According to historian Corliss Konwiser Slack the Jewish population of "al-Andalus" (Islamic areas of Iberia) was about 1%:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=7ma...lus%22&f=false

    "One percent of the population of al-Andalus is estimated to have been Jewish, while the much-disputed Mozarabic and other Christian population numbers have been estimated at 30 percent. All of these groups were protected under Islamic law at the expense of a special tax."


    According to Jewish historian Raphael Patai, using the highest estimates known to him, the total population of Jews in all Spain was about 2-3%:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6jN...ain%22&f=false

    "...Jews constituted 2.7 percent of the total population of Spain"

    According to the authors of "Western Civilization: Beyond the Boundaries" the total population of Jews in all Iberia was around 2%:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=2TA...ish%22&f=false

    "...perhaps 2 percent of the population of Iberia was Jewish..."

    Jews in Iberia were even fewer in number than the Arabs and Berbers, and the highest estimates for these two groups are around 10%, the lowest around 5%. So I find it rather implausible that Jews were at least 7% of the population of Spain.

  5. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    23-04-11
    Posts
    606


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    Don't mind him. There is also no evidence of Iberian admixture in North Africans, as the latter carry almost 0% R1b, and most of it is of Italic origin from the Romans.
    If the source of the admixture was more female-mediated, then it wouldn't show up in paternal haplogroups. Not saying this is what happened, but it'd make both admixture possible and low frequencies of R1b.

    And actually, some of the maternal haplogroups found in Iberia are also found in North Africa, such as V.

  6. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    23-04-11
    Posts
    606


    Country: United States



    Also, just one other thing to point out, about this quote:
    "The ancient Greeks had a relatively small impact on the Spanish gene pool, having only a few minor colonies in Catalonia and near Alicante. Modern Catalans have only 2% of haplogroup J2 and 3% of haplogroup E1b1b, the two main Greek lineages."

    You might also want to look for Balkan I2 and R1a, both of which are present in Greeks although at lower frequencies. If neither of these is present in Catalonia, then it is possible that the source of J2 and E1b1b might be from the Neolithic (as they are present in low frequencies in many European countries) rather than directly Greek or even Roman.

  7. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    If the source of the admixture was more female-mediated, then it wouldn't show up in paternal haplogroups. Not saying this is what happened, but it'd make both admixture possible and low frequencies of R1b.

    And actually, some of the maternal haplogroups found in Iberia are also found in North Africa, such as V.
    I find it hard to believe that Iberians expelled only females, but kept the males. It simply does not make sense.

  8. #33
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    [QUOTE=joeyc;442104]I've read this crappy study. It's clear to me that they have oversampled both Southern Italians and Sardinians.

    If they had divided Italy in regions (North, Center, South, Islands), the signals of Germanic and Slavic ancestry would have become much clearer. Especially for far North Eastern Italians.[/QUOTEy

    I see you're setting yourself up as an expert witness. I know how to handle those. Perhaps you'd like to provide us with your curriculum vitae showing your academic and professional expertise in statistical analysis. I won't demand professional experience on an academic level as a population genetics expert...I can tell you I won't be holding my breath waiting...

    If you had read the paper and understood the statistical analyses you would know that they had samples from north to south and there was a steady cline with values ranging from those typical of the Swiss to those typical of Greece.

    (This is off-topic, but I hope Maciamo will excuse this small digression. For your information, there is no significant "Slavic" influence in Italy. There is no Slavic influence at all except for whatever stray Slovenes etc. have wandered over the border. If we know anything, we know how to track the "Slavic" R1a markers and they are present at very small percentages. Now, if you want to discuss Italian genetics, perhaps you should find the appropriate thread.)

  9. #34
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Actually, that conclusion is based in the link's conclusion from the original post. And I agree with it.
    You agree with the conclusion in what link?

    This is what you said: "I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa. "

    This is the link to the paper:
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...omisedMessage=

    These are the results and conclusion from the paper:
    Results

    A relatively homogenous Y-chromosome haplogroup composition was observed in the Zamora province. Haplogroups R1b1-P25 and I-M170, widespread in European populations, accounted for 64.9% of the total sample. Moreover, all of the observed African lineages, accounting for 10.2% of the total variability, belonged to haplogroups having Northwest African origin (E1b1b1b-M81, E1b1b1a-β-M78, and J1-M267).


    Conclusions

    No differences between regions or sub-structure due to geographical boundaries were detected. The specific Northwest African male lineages observed contrast with the mitochondrial DNA data, where the majority of African lineages were found to be sub-Saharan. This work made it possible to study the impact of recent historical events in the male gene pool in the province of Zamora in Spain. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 2014. © 2014 Wiley Periodicals, Inc.

    So, the "African" mtDna in this province was mostly SSA in origin. The "African" y dna was North African in origin.

    That in no way, shape, or form supports what you said, and it is absurd to claim that it does.

  10. #35
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Oreo Cookie:Also, just one other thing to point out, about this quote:
    "The ancient Greeks had a relatively small impact on the Spanish gene pool, having only a few minor colonies in Catalonia and near Alicante. Modern Catalans have only 2% of haplogroup J2 and 3% of haplogroup E1b1b, the two main Greek lineages."

    You might also want to look for Balkan I2 and R1a, both of which are present in Greeks although at lower frequencies. If neither of these is present in Catalonia, then it is possible that the source of J2 and E1b1b might be from the Neolithic (as they are present in low frequencies in many European countries) rather than directly Greek or even Roman.
    Again, I fail to see the logic in any of this.

    You cannot discuss y dna lineages without specifying the subclades involved. There are I2a clades which apparently were neolithicized very early, and became part of the Neolithic expansions in Europe. (perhaps from the Danube Gorges) That's why you find I2a clades in Sardinia and related clades in Iberia.

    That has nothing to do with the I2a clades which form the majority of the I2a in the Balkans and Greece. There are any number of genetic genealogists who believe that those very young and homogenous clades may have arrived in the Balkans, including Greece, during the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.

    Why on earth would Greeks who colonized Spain in the first millennium B.C. have carried these markers?

    So, this line of inquiry would prove nothing.

    In addition, I'm as puzzled by J2 as everyone else. The fact remains that we have yet to find J2 in a neolithic context. Going by the current distributions however, and the history of the first millennium, I think we can be assured that the Greek colonists would have carried it.

  11. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    23-04-11
    Posts
    606


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You agree with the conclusion in what link?
    The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That has nothing to do with the I2a clades which form the majority of the I2a in the Balkans and Greece. There are any number of genetic genealogists who believe that those very young and homogenous clades may have arrived in the Balkans, including Greece, during the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.
    Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml



  12. #37
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    I've read this crappy study. It's clear to me that they have oversampled both Southern Italians and Sardinians.

    If they had divided Italy in regions (North, Center, South, Islands), the signals of Germanic and Slavic ancestry would have become much clearer. Especially for far North Eastern Italians.
    Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.

    Just what would satisfy you? A finding that northern Italians are really Germans in disguise? That is highly unlikely to happen.
    Do you see northern Italians plotting in Bavaria somewhere on PCA plots? It's as ridiculous as Iberians thinking they plot in Ireland. The most important question, of course, is why do they want to...

    (Also, I fail to see why a Neapolitan would be so interested in proving the Nordicity? of northern Italians. Goodness knows who any of you people really are...It's like being in a house of mirrors.)

    This is off-topic, so I will keep it brief...there is no significant Slavic input in Italy. There is a bit in far northeastern Italy from whatever Slovenes etc. wandered over the border. If we know anything we know the R1a markers that can be used to track the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period. I have yet to see R1a 458 show up anywhere in Italy other than in the most miniscule percentages. As for the "Germanic" input, if we once again go by the generally accepted y haplogroups, i.e. "I1" and U-106, you are over-hyping their influence in Italy for whatever bizarre reasons.

    However, as I said, this is an off-topic discussion which belongs on a thread about Italian genetics.

  13. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    23-04-11
    Posts
    606


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.
    Similar to some groups of Greeks at least. Mainland Greece, even the Peloponnese, has historically documented and genetically verified Slavic influence. One paper that came out fairly recently found that Sicilians, at least, genetically overlap with the people of Crete. Dodecanese islanders, the most geographically outlying group, are more Anatolian though.

  14. #39
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.



    Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml


    The I2 typical of Crete is a different subclade than the I2 typical of North Greece. Although precise SNP and STR testing is very rare for Crete, last I looked, it seemed to be mainly I2c, as opposed to the I2a-Din typical of North Greece. From the few samples of I2c in Greece we actually have STRs for, it seems that I2c in Greece is also probably fairly recent. I personally still like Eupedia user haithabu's hypothesis that Cretan I2c represents movement of people within the Republic of Venice.

  15. #40
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    The link posted in the very first post, that the thread starter himself wrote.



    Because I2 is not necessarily Slavic, and exists also on the Aegean islands and Crete (places that were never colonized by Slavs). You can see this in y-dna frequencies by region of Greece that are posted on this forum. Additionally R1a has, according to this chart, nearly uniform distribution in Greece.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml


    You are missing the point. I personally don't care one way or another whether the E-V13 and J2 in Catalonia are from Greek settlements in the first millennium B.C. or from the Neolithic. It's of purely historical interest. I don't know why you care so vehemently. Is it more palatable if it came during the Neolithic for some unknown reason? What's wrong with having some Ulysses like, smart, wily, Homer quoting, intrepid Greek traders among your ancestors? Besides, it's all the same genes, you know. I highly doubt that the Greeks of that period were all that different from their Neolithic farmer ancestors.

    The point is that no definitive conclusions can be reached because neither lineage has gotten the attention that has been given to R1b and R1a. So, there is no way currently to distinguish between a Neolithic E-V13 and a Greek settlement era E-V13. We don't even know if J2 is Neolithic in Europe or not.

    As to I2, you have to determine which subclades are being discussed. In other areas of this site, more recent phylogenies are published, but for these purposes I2a in that chart is the "Neolithic" marker. I2b the "other" one. I2a, which is present in Catalonia at a level of 5% according to the link, could all have a Neolithic arrival date in Catalonia, or some of it could have come with the Greeks, who of course would also have carried their own Neolithic markers. I2b is present at a level of .5%. Some areas of Greece today carry I2b at levels of 3-4%. It is on a north/south cline, which could be interpreted to support the theory that I2b is a "Slavic" marker. R1a is also at a .5% level in Catalonia. Levels are much higher in Greece, but again, it is indeed not uniformly distributed. It also exhibits a north/south cline. Of course, much depends on the subclades, but they are not delineated in this chart.
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...1a_Y-DNA.shtml

    So, I fail to see how looking at I2b levels and R1a levels (at very low resolution) in Catalonia today could add support to the argument for the non-Greek origins of E-V13 and J2 in that area when we don't know what the levels of I2b and R1a of any variety would have been in Greeks of the first millennium BC, and the evidence could very easily be interpreted to mean that most of I2b and much of R1a in Greece entered that country 5-700 years later.

    Once again, I don't care, and I am not arguing that the E-V13 and the J2 in Catalonia are from Greek settlements. My point was and is that I found your argument unpersuasive.

    Oh, if you want to know what a study of a uniparental marker looks like that actually provides a thorough, scientific analysis, you might want to take a look at the very recent paper that does an exhaustive analysis of what is often called the "North African" mtDna U6.
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/14/109

    It includes this conclusion:
    "Actually, the U6 phylogeny and the phylogeography of its lineages are better explained admitting both prehistoric and historic influences in Europe. " Everything depended on the specific subclades involved.

  16. #41
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    Similar to some groups of Greeks at least. Mainland Greece, even the Peloponnese, has historically documented and genetically verified Slavic influence. One paper that came out fairly recently found that Sicilians, at least, genetically overlap with the people of Crete. Dodecanese islanders, the most geographically outlying group, are more Anatolian though.
    If you're going to argue from papers, please provide the links and appropriate quotes so that your assertions can be verified. If you're going to argue from some other genetics source, please provide those links as well. I would advise against relying on 23andme data unless you have familiarized yourself with the reference populations being used for Greece and the Balkans in general. The choices made by 23andme have impacted the results for that area in a negative way, in my opinion. Also, individual results are in no way representative samples.

    In either case, this is the kind of forum where you have to be prepared to present a logical argument.

    As for Crete, I'm not at all surprised that it might overlap with an area of Italy considering both the pre-historic contacts between the two areas and the very long Italian domination of the island in the historic era, a domination that included settlement and documented intermarriage between Italians and the natives of Crete, and which may, to some degree, have "pulled" Crete even closer to Italy.

    You might consider studying the history of the maritime Italian Republics as it concerns the Greek islands and other areas of the east if you have such an interest in Greek genetics. We got around, much like the Greeks themselves.

    However, all of this is off-topic.

    Now, you gentlemen must excuse me. Iberian ethnogenesis is not my main area of interest.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The I2 typical of Crete is a different subclade than the I2 typical of North Greece. Although precise SNP and STR testing is very rare for Crete, last I looked, it seemed to be mainly I2c, as opposed to the I2a-Din typical of North Greece. From the few samples of I2c in Greece we actually have STRs for, it seems that I2c in Greece is also probably fairly recent. I personally still like Eupedia user haithabu's hypothesis that Cretan I2c represents movement of people within the Republic of Venice.
    Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

    In regards to Venetian crete ( candia ), it was the only colonial area of Venice that one could bring his wife and children ( apart from mainland Italy and istria).
    If mixing with the locals was found, then nobility status was lost for thse venetians..........but that does not stop everyone once you found true love!
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  18. #43
    Banned
    Join Date
    11-04-14
    Posts
    258


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Had you truly read the study, and the material provided about the provenance of the samples, and understood the statistical analysis you would know that they discovered a cline in Italy with values ranging from those similar to the Swiss to those more similar to the Greeks.

    Just what would satisfy you? A finding that northern Italians are really Germans in disguise? That is highly unlikely to happen.
    Do you see northern Italians plotting in Bavaria somewhere on PCA plots? It's as ridiculous as Iberians thinking they plot in Ireland. The most important question, of course, is why do they want to...

    (Also, I fail to see why a Neapolitan would be so interested in proving the Nordicity? of northern Italians. Goodness knows who any of you people really are...It's like being in a house of mirrors.)

    This is off-topic, so I will keep it brief...there is no significant Slavic input in Italy. There is a bit in far northeastern Italy from whatever Slovenes etc. wandered over the border. If we know anything we know the R1a markers that can be used to track the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period. I have yet to see R1a 458 show up anywhere in Italy other than in the most miniscule percentages. As for the "Germanic" input, if we once again go by the generally accepted y haplogroups, i.e. "I1" and U-106, you are over-hyping their influence in Italy for whatever bizarre reasons.

    However, as I said, this is an off-topic discussion which belongs on a thread about Italian genetics.
    They have discovered a cline within Italy, but this does not chage these 2 simple facts:

    1. Southern Italians and Sardinians are oversampled.
    2. There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

    Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.




    Talking about Slavic haplogrups, I've found this map for the distribution of R1a M458.

    Last edited by joeyc; 21-10-14 at 10:20.

  19. #44
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?
    Not really, although it does have some minor presence there. You're probably thinking of I2b-L415.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by joeyc View Post
    They have discovered a cline within Italy, but this does not chage these 2 simple facts:

    1. Southern Italians and Sardinians are oversampled.
    2. There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

    Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.




    Talking about Slavic haplogrups, I've found this map for the distribution of R1a M458.

    The inclusion of the french swiss is to do with centuries upon centuries of french intrusion into north west italy. Be it from Savoy region of france, where these people became the kings of Italy to franco-provenzal area which was Italian as recently as 120 years ago. Nice, Monaco , Menton where all italian ...........Garibaldi was born in Italian Nice

  21. #46
    Banned
    Join Date
    23-04-11
    Posts
    606


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you're going to argue from papers, please provide the links and appropriate quotes so that your assertions can be verified.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/111/25/9211.full

    "The geographic proximity and partial overlap in the PCA of Crete and Sicily is also compatible with gene flow from Crete to Italy and to Southern Europe through population movements along the Southern Mediterranean coast."

  22. #47
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    18,969


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Joey:There is no clear division, but a cline. So we can only supposed based on Y-dna haplotypes frequencies and genome wide analysis, that the Italians sharing more IBD blocks are Northerners.

    Also I don't get why they have only included French Swiss, when most of the invaders were from North Eastern Europe.
    Everyone knows that there is a N/S cline in Italy. Cavalli Sforza talked about it thirty years ago. In more recent times, it's been obvious since Novembre et al. Whom are you trying to convince? That is different from talking about divisions. You are the only one talking about divisions.

    You persist in talking about the Ralph and Coop paper when you obviously have not read it carefully. If you had, you would have seen this:
    " Because of the large Swiss sample, we split this group into three by language: French-speaking (CHf), German-speaking (CHd), or other (CH). "

    This talk about the oversampling of Sardinians and Southern Italians makes no sense to me. Sardinians are irrelevant to the genetic cline of Italy. In case you haven't heard they form their own cluster. They are chosen for sampling because some scholars are actually interested in learning more about the Neolithic expansion in Europe. Cavalli-Sforza included them in the HGDP samples because he knew their central importance in that regard three decades ago. As for southern Italians, the only place where a lot of them have been tested is on 23andme. I was talking about Ralph and Coop et al.

    General R1a numbers which in that graph are at extremely low frequencies in Italy cannot be used to show the impact of the Slavic expansions anywhere, including Italy. I hate to break this to you, but there are a lot of varieties of R1a and some of them have nothing to do with the Slavic expansions of the early medieval period.

    I will not respond to any more of your off-topic posts on this thread, and if you post an off topic comment again, I will report it. I shouldn't have responded at all. It's time that Maciamo's thread was given the respect that it merits.

  23. #48
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    133


    Country: Brazil



    Not to go even more off-topic than this thread already has, but how did Lebanon end up with 2% I1 and 1.5% 12b (as seen on the table on the Iberian Peninsula page)? That's more I1 and I2b than in Spain. I don't think the I1 and I2b in Lebanon could be (entirely) attributed to Western European crusaders, otherwise, there would be a lot more R1b in Lebanon.

  24. #49
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    19-04-12
    Posts
    382


    Country: Finland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Isn't I2c classified/named as Adriatic ?

    In regards to Venetian crete ( candia ), it was the only colonial area of Venice that one could bring his wife and children ( apart from mainland Italy and istria).
    If mixing with the locals was found, then nobility status was lost for thse venetians..........but that does not stop everyone once you found true love!
    I2c is Middle Eastern from various sources, found in Caucasus with a certain frequency.

  25. #50
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    I2c is Middle Eastern from various sources, found in Caucasus with a certain frequency.
    More specifically, I2c PF3881-, which currently constitutes 1 of the 3 major STR clusters in I2c, has a large Caucasian/Near Eastern presence, although the highest diversity of I2c as a whole is clearly in Europe (and the ancient Swedish sample Motala 2 seems to have carried it). Cretan I2c seems to indeed be I2c PF3881-.

    What was this thread's topic again? Oh, right. I2c isn't significant in Iberia. Is that helpful? :)

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •