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Thread: Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula

    I would like to announce that I have just published a Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula. It may still need a few corrections, but otherwise I think it is reasonably comprehensive.

    Your feedback is welcome.
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    Well done Maciamo. I always find your articles very easy to follow and well explained. I would like to mention that in your map of Bell Beakers and Megalithic cultures, Malta (the spot under Sicily) had a thriving Megalithic culture and not demonstrated as such. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalit...mples_of_Malta.

    Thank you for all the good work

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    If you can find a common snp linking R1b in Phoenicia/Lebanon with it's largest colony, Carthage than you might have a common connection.
    Otherwise trying to connect Druze and Alawites R1b L23[51](the highest R1b carriers in the region) with Phoenician expansion colonies might be in vain.
    On the other hand M269(L23) and L23(51) are both found in Balkans and among different groups like Zoroastrians in Tehran and Bashkirs.
    Albanian M269(L23) L51(23)> R1b 9219+ , and Greeks share L23(51) and are quite abundant in Greek colonies like Smirna.
    The same with the Assyrian R1b L23(51) which some were trying to link to Levant groups, showing they were autochthonous.
    To date, Assyrian, Druze, Alawite, samples have not yielded any R1b L23[51]CTS-9219+ found in Russia,Eastern Europe, Balkan regions with also M269[L23] and M73.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056775 Table S6

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041252

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

    http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I would like to announce that I have just published a Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula. It may still need a few corrections, but otherwise I think it is reasonably comprehensive.

    Your feedback is welcome.
    That was a great read, Maciamo, good work. :)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I would like to announce that I have just published a Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula. It may still need a few corrections, but otherwise I think it is reasonably comprehensive.

    Your feedback is welcome.
    "In the 14th century, approximately 8% of the Spanish population was Jewish."

    Source? I have seen legitimate historical sources (not Wikipedia) that say that Jews in Iberia were quite less than that. In fact, more like closer to 1%.

    "The Inquisition killed or expelled a lot of Muslims, but, as was the case with the Jews, many converted to Christianity and remained in Spain and Portugal. As many as 275,000 of these Moriscos, as the converts were known, were expelled from Castille and Valencia in the early 17th century, but many more lingered in other regions, notably Aragon, Andalusia, Extremadura and Portugal. At one point, Moriscos accounted for 20% of the population of Aragon. It is probably not a coincidence that haplogroups E1b1b, J and T make up 20% of modern Aragonese male lineages, despite the fact that the region was never under Phoenician or Greek influence."

    The problem with this theory is the well-known historical fact that most "Moriscos" were just descendants of native Iberians who had converted to Islam (known as "Muladies") and later on reconverted to Christianity, not foreign Arabs or Berbers. Also, one would have to take a closer look at what subclades of E1b1b and J are more common in Aragon to venture to guess any possible connection to the subject.

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    I think you should be more specific when describing the genetic relationship between La Brana-1 and 2 and modern Europeans. It's vague to just say they were most related to Bats and Scandinavians(just as related or more so to Polish, Belorussian, and Russians), it'll probably be confusng to some people. I would suggest going into more detail. Basque actually have about as much or possibly more WHG than NW Europeans. The extra ANE and less ENF in NW Euros makes them overall more related

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's probably too speculative yet, but regarding Iberia, there is in K15 the 'Atlantic' component, which peaks in French-Basque and second highest in Spaniards. It is also very high in the presumably celtic Iron Age sample.
    By analyzing K15 it looks like 'Atlantic' is a combination of at least two major ancestries, one is more related to North-Europeans (Loschbour, La Brana, NW-Europe possess 'Atlantic') and the other is related to South-Europeans ('Atlantic' is modal in Iberians/Basques, but also strong in EEF-Stuttgart (25%), Sicilians (15%) and even Cypriots and sephardic Jews (7%)). Since Sicilians, Cypriots and Jews are the least WHG-North-European Hunter-Gatherer related peoples of today in Europe, it is almost certain that 'Atlantic' is partially composed of South-european ancestry, which could be either a mesolthic population from Italy and/or Balkans, which made it together with the farmers to Iberia. Another possibility is that these were Near-eastern/Anatolian hunter-gatherers who mixed with european hunter-gatherers across the mesolithic mediterranean.
    MtDNA H1+H3 coincides well with 'Atlantic' autosomal component.

    'North-Sea' and 'East-Euro' seem more strange and artificial. North-Sea seems to be closer related to 'East-Euro' than to neighbouring 'Baltic', which is strange but interesting. FST distances would be nice to have.
    West-Asian looks less ANE related in K15, which might be just due to an overfitting effect - my guess. But this is off-topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    It's probably too speculative yet, but regarding Iberia, there is in K15 the 'Atlantic' component, which peaks in French-Basque and second highest in Spaniards. It is also very high in the presumably celtic Iron Age sample.
    By analyzing K15 it looks like 'Atlantic' is a combination of at least two major ancestries, one is more related to North-Europeans (Loschbour, La Brana, NW-Europe possess 'Atlantic') and the other is related to South-Europeans ('Atlantic' is modal in Iberians/Basques, but also strong in EEF-Stuttgart (25%), Sicilians (15%) and even Cypriots and sephardic Jews (7%)). Since Sicilians, Cypriots and Jews are the least WHG-North-European Hunter-Gatherer related peoples of today in Europe, it is almost certain that 'Atlantic' is partially composed of South-european ancestry, which could be either a mesolthic population from Italy and/or Balkans, which made it together with the farmers to Iberia. Another possibility is that these were Near-eastern/Anatolian hunter-gatherers who mixed with european hunter-gatherers across the mesolithic mediterranean.
    MtDNA H1+H3 coincides well with 'Atlantic' autosomal component.

    'North-Sea' and 'East-Euro' seem more strange and artificial. North-Sea seems to be closer related to 'East-Euro' than neighbouring 'Baltic', which is strange but interesting. FST distances would be nice to have.
    West-Asian looks less ANE related in K15, which might be just due to an overfitting effect - my guess. But this is off-topic.
    According to the spreadsheet Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to get 10% Atlantic, I'm a full Ashkenazi but I get 20%, here are my results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 26.20
    2 Atlantic 19.52
    3 West_Asian 16.32
    4 West_Med 14.60
    5 North_Sea 8.44
    6 Red_Sea 6.79
    7 Baltic 4.00
    8 Eastern_Euro 1.99
    9 Northeast_African 1.24


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.435981
    2 West_Sicilian @ 7.124914
    3 East_Sicilian @ 7.686503
    4 South_Italian @ 8.222302
    5 Central_Greek @ 8.253244
    6 Ashkenazi @ 10.587203
    7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 11.051206
    8 Italian_Jewish @ 11.907031
    9 Tuscan @ 11.965949
    10 Greek @ 12.039761
    11 Algerian_Jewish @ 13.711204
    12 Greek_Thessaly @ 14.624115
    13 Tunisian_Jewish @ 15.955420
    14 North_Italian @ 19.058891
    15 Bulgarian @ 19.539663
    16 Libyan_Jewish @ 19.904432
    17 Cyprian @ 20.181499
    18 Turkish @ 20.992123
    19 Romanian @ 21.754431
    20 Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.375401

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Kurdish_Jewish +50% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.772971


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Sephardic_Jewish +25% Spanish_Aragon +25% Turkish @ 3.586322


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.923865
    2 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.259549
    3 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.276515
    4 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.335139
    5 Assyrian + French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.400810
    6 Assyrian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.500655
    7 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.508104
    8 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.597329
    9 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.608863
    10 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Christian + Turkish @ 2.628187
    11 Armenian + French_Basque + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.628273
    12 Ashkenazi + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.653903
    13 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.660685
    14 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + West_Sicilian @ 2.665869
    15 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.667009
    16 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.668889
    17 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Samaritan + Turkish @ 2.674453
    18 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.678019
    19 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Jordanian + Tuscan @ 2.737997
    20 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.774329



    Have no idea what that means.

    P.S according to Iosif (forgot his surname) Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians and Maltese have the least WHG in Europe, and thus plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, Cypriots get a negative value of said component, and plot on the tip of the near east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    According to the spreadsheet Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to get 10% Atlantic, I'm a full Ashkenazi but I get 20%, here are my results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 26.20
    2 Atlantic 19.52
    3 West_Asian 16.32
    4 West_Med 14.60
    5 North_Sea 8.44
    6 Red_Sea 6.79
    7 Baltic 4.00
    8 Eastern_Euro 1.99
    9 Northeast_African 1.24


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Italian_Abruzzo @ 5.435981
    2 West_Sicilian @ 7.124914
    3 East_Sicilian @ 7.686503
    4 South_Italian @ 8.222302
    5 Central_Greek @ 8.253244
    6 Ashkenazi @ 10.587203
    7 Sephardic_Jewish @ 11.051206
    8 Italian_Jewish @ 11.907031
    9 Tuscan @ 11.965949
    10 Greek @ 12.039761
    11 Algerian_Jewish @ 13.711204
    12 Greek_Thessaly @ 14.624115
    13 Tunisian_Jewish @ 15.955420
    14 North_Italian @ 19.058891
    15 Bulgarian @ 19.539663
    16 Libyan_Jewish @ 19.904432
    17 Cyprian @ 20.181499
    18 Turkish @ 20.992123
    19 Romanian @ 21.754431
    20 Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.375401

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Kurdish_Jewish +50% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.772971


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Sephardic_Jewish +25% Spanish_Aragon +25% Turkish @ 3.586322


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    1 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 1.923865
    2 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.259549
    3 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Muslim + Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.276515
    4 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.335139
    5 Assyrian + French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.400810
    6 Assyrian + French_Basque + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.500655
    7 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.508104
    8 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + South_Italian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.597329
    9 East_Sicilian + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.608863
    10 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Lebanese_Christian + Turkish @ 2.628187
    11 Armenian + French_Basque + Palestinian + Tuscan @ 2.628273
    12 Ashkenazi + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.653903
    13 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + Tuscan @ 2.660685
    14 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Lebanese_Muslim + West_Sicilian @ 2.665869
    15 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + South_Italian @ 2.667009
    16 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.668889
    17 French_Basque + Italian_Abruzzo + Samaritan + Turkish @ 2.674453
    18 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish + West_Sicilian @ 2.678019
    19 French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Jordanian + Tuscan @ 2.737997
    20 Central_Greek + French_Basque + Georgian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.774329



    Have no idea what that means.

    P.S according to Iosif (forgot his surname) Ashkenazi Jews, Sicilians and Maltese have the least WHG in Europe, and thus plot in the gap between Europe and the near east, Cypriots get a negative value of said component, and plot on the tip of the near east.
    Compared to sephardim, ashkenazi jews are known to have some north-euro admixture, which is visible in elevated 'North-Sea', 'Baltic' and 'Eastern-Euro'. All populations being high in any of these three compopnents also have significant 'Atlantic', because they share partial common north-euro-WHG-like ancestry. Your 'Atlantic' indeed looks strangely high at first glance. I don't know what it means. Try to do some meditation using the K15 table, perhaps you'll find an explanation which I don't see yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    Compared to sephardim, ashkenazi jews are known to have some north-euro admixture, which is visible in elevated 'North-Sea', 'Baltic' and 'Eastern-Euro'. All populations being high in any of these three compopnents also have significant 'Atlantic', because they share partial common north-euro-WHG-like ancestry. Your 'Atlantic' indeed looks strangely high at first glance. I don't know what it means. Try to do some meditation using the K15 table, perhaps you'll find an explanation which I don't see yet.
    After looking at the spreadsheet again, I think I came up with an answer:

    Average Ashkenazi- north sea: 10%
    Me- north sea: 8%

    Average Ashkenazi- Atlantic: 10%
    Me-Atlantic: 20%

    Average Ashkenazi- Baltic: 7%
    Me- Baltic: 4%

    Average Ashkenazi- east Euro: 5%
    Me- east Euro- 2%

    Average Ashkenazi- west Mediterranean: 15%
    Me- west Mediterranean: 15%

    Average Ashkenazi- west Asian: 13%
    Me- west Asian: 16%

    Average Ashkenazi- east Mediterranean: 27%
    Me- east Mediterranean: 26%

    Average Ashkenazi- red sea: 8%
    Me- red sea: 7%

    Average Ashkenazi- south Asian: 1%
    Me- south Asian: below 1%

    Average Ashkenazi- southeast Asian: below 1%
    Me-southeast Asian: below 1%

    Average Ashkenazi- Siberian: below 1%
    Me-Siberian: below 1%

    Average Ashkenazi- Amerindian: below 1%
    Me-Amerindian: below 1%

    Average Ashkenazi- Oceanian: below 1%
    Me-Oceanian: below 1%


    Average Ashkenazi- northeast African: 2%
    Me-northeast African: 1%

    Average Ashkenazi-Sub Saharan: below 1%
    Me-Sub Saharan: below 1%

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    You look most like a mixed Sephardim+Ashkenazi with some additional Basque ancestry, but not exactly. Your west-Mediterranean should be higher then. You have a quite unique admixture profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    After looking at the spreadsheet again, I think I came up with an answer:

    Average Ashkenazi- north sea: 10%
    Me- north sea: 8%

    Average Ashkenazi- Atlantic: 10%
    Me-Atlantic: 20%

    Average Ashkenazi- Baltic: 7%
    Me- Baltic: 4%

    Average Ashkenazi- east Euro: 5%
    Me- east Euro- 2%

    Average Ashkenazi- west Mediterranean: 15%
    Me- west Mediterranean: 15%
    ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    You look most like a mixed Sephardim+Ashkenazi with some additional Basque ancestry, but not exactly. Your west-Mediterranean should be higher then. You have a quite unique admixture profile.
    For all I know, I'm a full Ashkenazi, with roots in modern day Germany, Poland and the Ukraine. But my biological father was fairer than my mother.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    In terms of the general introduction, I don’t think the weight of the evidence supports the proposition that there is a lot of substructure autosomally in the modern populations of the Iberian peninsula, or at least not in Spain, perhaps in part, indeed, to the resettlement policies following the Reconquista.
    See Ralph and Coop.


    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555
    Patterns for the Iberian peninsula are similar, with both Spain and Portugal showing very few common ancestors with other populations over the last 2,500 years. However, the rate of IBD sharing within the peninsula is much higher than within Italy—during the last 1,500 years the Iberian peninsula shares fewer than two genetic common ancestors with other populations, compared to roughly 30 per pair within the peninsula; Italians share on average only about eight with each other during this period.
    Also: n contrast to Italy, the rate of sharing of IBD within the Iberian peninsula is similar to that within other populations in Europe. There is furthermore much less evidence of substructure within our Iberian samples than within the Italians, as shown in Figure S2. This suggests that the reduced rate of shared ancestry is due to geographic isolation (by distance and/or the Pyrenees) rather than long-term stable substructure within the peninsula.

    As to the impact of the “Germanic” invasions, there is also this:


    On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations [54],[55].

    Uniparental markers are a different story, but they are so subject, imo, to founder effect and drift that while they give clues, especially the yDna, as to ancient migration routes and genetic clusters that may once have existed, they are not as informative about current genetic differences among populations.


    I’m also not sure it’s at all settled scientifically how much and what specific subclades of E-M81 came into Iberia at which time. Just generally, there has been very little work done on determining substructure within E-M81, unlike what has been done for R1b, for example.

    Perhaps some came in the Mesolithic, although I’m sure you’re aware that E-M81 has been assigned a "young" TMRCA. That doesn't mean, of course, that some upstream clade of "E" was not present in the Iberian peninsula at that time.


    That some of it came during the Neolithic seems perhaps more likely.

    Arredi et al. (2004) believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic "demic diffusion" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent via the Nile, although pastoralism rather than agriculture. E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic language may have been carried either all the way from Asia, or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". According to Shomarka Keita, a Near Eastern origin of proto-Afroasiatic speakers carrying E-M81, or its ancestral lineage, is inconsistent with the linguistic evidence, which seems to indicate an African origin of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers. Keita argues that there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in the Maghreb, or possibly as far southeast as the Horn of Africa.[14]

    However, once again, without some more resolution and some ancient dna against which to check hypotheses, I’m not sure.

    I don’t know what basis there is for saying that none of it came with the Moors. I have, at various times, attempted to find current, or even twenthieth century comprehensive histories of Spain and Portugal covering this period, and dealing with the Moorish invasions, that compile in one place whatever data is available, and I can't find it either in English or Spanish.

    On the genetic side, the kinds of analyses that have been done for R1b just haven’t been done, to my knowledge, for E-M81 in Spain. It would require more resolution of this clade at the minimum.


    This paper on mtDna U6 might be a good model for what could be done, but hasn't been done:
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/14/109
    The history of the North African mitochondrial DNA haplogroup U6 gene flow into the African, Eurasian and American continents
    , Bernard Secher et al.

    I’ve been wanting to take a look at this August 2014 paper on ydna in Iberia, but I don’t have institutional access. Perhaps you'll be more successful. Maybe it addresses some of these issues in a persuasive way.

    Luis Alvarez et al: Y chromosomal analysis in a Northwest Iberian population: Unraveleing the impact of North African lineages.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...omisedMessage=


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    There is almost zero real Celto Germanic ancestry in Iberia. 90% of their North Euro like DNA comes from La Brana swarthoids. Unfortunately we don't know much about Unetice and Bell Beaker culture, but at least the latter should have had a strong part in the formation of modern Iberian genepool. Just a personal opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    "In the 14th century, approximately 8% of the Spanish population was Jewish."

    Source? I have seen legitimate historical sources (not Wikipedia) that say that Jews in Iberia were quite less than that. In fact, more like closer to 1%.

    "The Inquisition killed or expelled a lot of Muslims, but, as was the case with the Jews, many converted to Christianity and remained in Spain and Portugal. As many as 275,000 of these Moriscos, as the converts were known, were expelled from Castille and Valencia in the early 17th century, but many more lingered in other regions, notably Aragon, Andalusia, Extremadura and Portugal. At one point, Moriscos accounted for 20% of the population of Aragon. It is probably not a coincidence that haplogroups E1b1b, J and T make up 20% of modern Aragonese male lineages, despite the fact that the region was never under Phoenician or Greek influence."

    The problem with this theory is the well-known historical fact that most "Moriscos" were just descendants of native Iberians who had converted to Islam (known as "Muladies") and later on reconverted to Christianity, not foreign Arabs or Berbers. Also, one would have to take a closer look at what subclades of E1b1b and J are more common in Aragon to venture to guess any possible connection to the subject.
    correct me if I am wrong:

    - Aragon was never on the coast , but only became coastal when catalonia claim the title of kingdom of Aragon...........IIRC ~1100AD

    - Aragon was never inhabited by Moors

    - Moors are not arabs, but mostly berber people who are 90% E in marker except a small group who are R1a ( 4.9%) in altai mountains

    - According to Adams (2008 paper) ibiza was formed by phoenician settlers, Ibiza has 20% g2a, 17% T1, 15% J2 and the rest ..............other phoenician settlement show mostly J2 markers

    - Catalonia had phoenician and greek settlement
    http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/culturacatalana/menuitem.be2bc4cc4c5aec88f94a9710b0c0e1a0/?vgnextoid=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e0aRCR D&vgnextchannel=841c5c43da896210VgnVCM1000000b0c1e 0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=detall2&contentid=278c3c084ded721 0VgnVCM1000008d0c1e0aRCRD


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    correct me if I am wrong:

    - Aragon was never on the coast , but only became coastal when catalonia claim the title of kingdom of Aragon...........IIRC ~1100AD
    Yes.

    - Aragon was never inhabited by Moors
    Since Islamic "Moors" even made it to southern France and Switzerland-Italy border regions ("Alpine passes") obviously they had to pass through lands that were part of Aragon first. But this was just a military presence, there was no substantial immigration and settlement to speak of.

    - Moors are not arabs, but mostly berber people who are 90% E in marker except a small group who are R1a ( 4.9%) in altai mountains`
    Yes. The Arabs were basically the foreign ruling elites, the bulk of the "Moors" were just the same Berber peoples from ancient times (known to Greeks and Romans since long before Islam existed), only now converted to Islam instead of being pagan or early Christian (as they were during Graeco-Roman times before the Islamic intervention in North Africa.)

    - According to Adams (2008 paper) ibiza was formed by phoenician settlers, Ibiza has 20% g2a, 17% T1, 15% J2 and the rest ..............other phoenician settlement show mostly J2 markers
    Adams et al. 2008 is full of baloney when it comes to "interpretations" of what their results for haplogroup frequencies might mean, historically speaking. This paper has already been criticized for it since its publication. Ibiza was already inhabited long before the Phoenician traders arrived to that island.

    - Catalonia had phoenician and greek settlement
    http://www20.gencat.cat/portal/site/...008d0c1e0aRCRD
    The article only says that there was trade between Catalonia and the Phoenician commercial enclaves in places like "Gades" (Cadiz).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    In terms of the general introduction, I don’t think the weight of the evidence supports the proposition that there is a lot of substructure autosomally in the modern populations of the Iberian peninsula, or at least not in Spain, perhaps in part, indeed, to the resettlement policies following the Reconquista.
    Yes, it's true that Spaniards are fairly close with one another autosomally compared with French or Italian people, but probably not as homogeneous as the English or the Scandinavians.

    Perhaps some came in the Mesolithic, although I’m sure you’re aware that E-M81 has been assigned a "young" TMRCA. That doesn't mean, of course, that some upstream clade of "E" was not present in the Iberian peninsula at that time.

    That some of it came during the Neolithic seems perhaps more likely.

    I don’t know what basis there is for saying that none of it came with the Moors. I have, at various times, attempted to find current, or even twenthieth century comprehensive histories of Spain and Portugal covering this period, and dealing with the Moorish invasions, that compile in one place whatever data is available, and I can't find it either in English or Spanish.
    Considering the proximity of the Maghreb and Iberia, various waves of E-M81 could have come during the Mesolithic and Neolithic, but of course also during the Moorish period.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drac II View Post
    "In the 14th century, approximately 8% of the Spanish population was Jewish."

    Source? I have seen legitimate historical sources (not Wikipedia) that say that Jews in Iberia were quite less than that. In fact, more like closer to 1%.
    According to the History of the Jews in Spain, "there were about 120 Jewish communities in Christian Spain around 1300, with somewhere around half a million or more Jews". This site gives an estimated population of 9 million for Iberia around 1340. Keeping historical population proportions between Spain and Portugal (roughly 3.5 to 1), that's about 7 million for Spain alone. In other words the Jewish population was at least 7% at that time.

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    I have added a section about autosomal DNA and its relation with patterns observed with Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups. This where I explain, among others, the genetic specificities of the Basques and the Catalans.

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    On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations [54],[55].
    I've read this crappy study. It's clear to me that they have oversampled both Southern Italians and Sardinians.

    If they had divided Italy in regions (North, Center, South, Islands), the signals of Germanic and Slavic ancestry would have become much clearer. Especially for far North Eastern Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added a section about autosomal DNA and its relation with patterns observed with Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups. This where I explain, among others, the genetic specificities of the Basques and the Catalans.
    What about Laz? Why do you only look at a select few admixtures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    What about Laz? Why do you only look at a select few admixtures?
    What do the Laz have to do with Iberia ?

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    I have just made some considerable amendments to the Introduction and the Neolithic section of the article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What do the Laz have to do with Iberia ?
    It has to do with all Europeans, west Asians, and even Amerindians, Siberians, east Asians, etc., etc. A lot can be learned about Iberians outside of Dodecade.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have always suspected that genetic affinity to North Africa is mostly prehistoric, since there are also Iberian affinities in North Africa. Though that might also have to do with the Reconquista expelling even native Iberians who converted to Islam, to North Africa.

    As for Romans, Phoenicians, Greeks I suspect none of them contributed substantially at all to Iberian genetics.

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