Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread, and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.

I dont see how a scientific paper can be so "badly dissected" as you mention with only couple of comments on that thread, and from them that (i think) are not scientist.

The proposed homelands by this paper is indeed south west Anatolia and not north of Black Sea, therefore i think it spread from south east Anatolia to north Mesopotamia and even further to Tocharian, on the other side it spread through Caucus and then the steppe through Yamna at around 4,500 ybp. This might also correlate with the newest research of Yamna and PEI. So this make pretty much sense about the balto slavic....

http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124
 
My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

He never said that. That, what you're saying, has no meaning.
 
He never said that. That, what you're saying, has no meaning.

How about checking post 170 on page 7 on this same thread, I will guide you to all the other innuendos and connotations as I come across them. And Yetos is not only one using this tactic by the way. It does not really boder me per se. The intent just gets so obsessively repetitive and boring to a subject I enjoy following closely.
 
@ Maleth

read this

You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


there was a strong minority of Jews in Makedonia, at 1860 moved to 5th Avenue NY most, some still live here,
and I ask you could a Jew Diaspora in Greece to be E?

after 70's many Palestinians devastate at Thessaloniki and around towns,
some are living 'next door' they might be E, should I baptise them Albanians cause they have E?

and to go more deep.

Greek language, Serb/Croat, Albanian languages are IE, meaning they are after Bronze era comers, why we connect E with IE?
were E Hg carriers IE speakers?

so search better who is the racist,


now to be honest,
I do not know what you believe about E in Balkans,
But I do not share the idea that E entered Balkans at Neolithic era, and has nothing to do with Iberian E
and I have the right, since the difference among Iberian and Balkan/minor Asia existance of E is 4000 (E of Konya), as much as from late bronze era to modern times,
besides the existance of Bottle neck, with the connection of M-78 M-81 and E-v13 and the one mutation given in Balkans (bosnia) how much possible is with an existance of 8000 years and with an existance of 4000 years with such numbers and density?????? I am not a calcutator neither a genetist, but I believe someone can help, or you understand
I believe is 4000 years old in Balkans, and create core and densities with Roman Legions, and Arab expand, (sources give christians to leave south East mediterenean due to Islam expansion)
if you knew the story of mt Athos, Christian monks until 6-7th century lived in Sina and Egyptian Arabian Syrrian deserts) after 700 BC they devastate to Cappadokia and mt Athos and with them villages and followers,
as also the density of E in Balkans is strange and pecculiar, cause if I follow the road of E Hg carriers devastation, surely I expect different results, and not such densities and peaks, which might be due to rate of reproduction, what I mean? search Deutshland, which might have not for example X hg, suddenly X enters antd reproduce with 2 woman (that is allowed and legal, if you make 2 marriages and a divorce) having 4-6 children with each and 50% of boys gives an average of 4-6 sons X carriers,
and the Z Hg due to religion makes one or none marriage with average of 2-3 children means reproduce with 1,5 factor per generation,
result????

and to finalize,
even if E is neolithic, why an E carrier in Bulgaria for example should be Albanian as Hrvat 22 say, and not a neolithic person who habbit there from neolithic times, and assimilated by Bulgarians?

if you do not understand the major propaganda of Albanians who run great nationalistic era, is that all E in Balkans are Albanians, so they are autochthonus pre IE, and all E in Balkans are Albanians, and they their Language is not a language of IE (R1xyz) but the mother of IE language,
away from E is not IE so is not Albanian Greek or Serbian, but a previous substractum, or a later migration, (both possible) who got assimilated by IE,
so I ask you, a Palestinian who came at 70's or earlier in Greece, and bear a son, is his son Albanian, cause he is E-V13 carrier, and lives in Balkans?
your problem is what? the word Palestinian? ok if I used word Cypriot or Maltese, would make any difference?

plz feel free to tell whatever you want, but plz read the above and bellow first,


and post again?
"if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived."
I ask,
could that man in Croatia to be son of a Sicilian or a Cillician that followed a Roman legion? or a Roman master? or a Roman officer at his villa? or a Christian priest? even a forgoten hunted Jew? why we baptise him Albanian or Serb or Greek?
 
Last edited:
@ Maleth

read this

there was a strong minority of Jews in Makedonia, some still live here,
and I ask you could a Jew Diaspora in Greece to be E?after 70's many Palestinians devastate at Thessaloniki and around towns,
some are living 'next door' they might be E, should I baptise them Albanians cause they have E?

1) There are E's and E's and other E's. If one is not specific the one is creating a confused and unspecific picture that will help no argument or debate

2) minority of Jews in Makedonia would come in J1's J2's and mostly E-34 and probably never be part of any study on Greek population as when studies are conducted the people are chosen for authenticity and not everyone can participate, so the argument of Jews in Makedonia visa vi the high amount of E-V13 in Greece as a whole holds no water and defiantly not related to Palestians or Jews. Lets be reasonable. Not difficult.

3) The same with Palestinians. They come in G2a, E (but minimal E-V13 definatly not majority in the E group) J's. The other haplogroups seem non existant to you and never seem to comment on them. So 2) is very relevant in this case too. I am E-V13 and been baptized a Christian but Im not an Albanian and Albanians are not just E-V13 but a considerable percentage like all the countries in the region.

and to go more deep.

Greek language, Serb/Croat, Albanian languages are IE, meaning they are after Bronze era comers, why we connect E with IE?
were E Hg carriers IE speakers?

so search better who is the racist,

Its possible the main driving force for IE was R1a but the region is made up of much more then just R1a so how come you feel E should be excluded from the assimilation of so many Haplotypes that characterise the region, then console yourself that E foreigners have intruded and had lots of babies? But the rest seems to fit in well. Im just trying to understand your logic. What about the J's that make a big chunk of your population? My Goodness, what a crisis!

The rise of archaeogenetic evidence which uses genetic analysis to trace migration patterns also added new elements to the origins puzzle. In terms of genetics, the subcladeR1a1a (R-M17 or R-M198) is the most commonly associated with Indo-European speakers. The subclade's parent Y-chromosome DNA haplogroupR1a1 is thought to have originated in either theEurasian Steppe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans


now to be honest,
I do not know what you believe about E in Balkans,
But I do not share the idea that E entered Balkans at Neolithic era, and has nothing to do with Iberian E
and I have the right, since the difference among Iberian and Balkan/minor Asia existance of E is 4000 (E of Konya), as much as from late bronze era to modern times,
besides the existance of Bottle neck, with the connection of M-78 M-81 and E-v13 and the one mutation given in Balkans (bosnia) how much possible is with an existance of 8000 years and with an existance of 4000 years with such numbers and density??????
I believe is 4000 years old in Balkans, and create core and densities with Roman Legions, and Arab expand, (sources give christians to leave south East mediterenean due to Islam expansion)
if you knew the story of mt Athos, Christian monks until 6-7th century lived in Sina and Egyptian Arabian Syrrian deserts) after 700 BC they devastate to Cappadokia and mt Athos and with them villages and followers,
as also the density of E in Balkans is strange and pecculiar, cause if I follow the road of E Hg carriers devastation, surely I expect different results, and not such densities and peaks, which might be due to rate of reproduction,

and to finalize,
even if E is neolithic, why an E carrier in Bulgaria should be Albanian as Hrvat 22 say, and not a neolithic person who habbit there from neolithic times?

Of course I do not agree with you and I have made my opinion known backed by studies around. Its no secret
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30814-Where-did-E-V13-originate

I am open to new theories as long as they are scientifically based and not just some theory to fit an agenda or an illusion to kind of justify a phobia.

E-V13 has nothing to do with Jews or Palestinians but I prefer to rely on professionals with serious studies when I am searching for knowledge and understanding. I have no problem if E-V13 (which is only found in the Balkans in any significant numbers) originate with Australian Aborigines or with the Sami's. But correct information is what matters most and not what feeds a fantasy.

We found that the Y-chromosome gene pool in modern Bulgarians is primarily represented by Western Eurasian haplogroups with ~ 40% belonging to haplogroups E-V13 and I-M423, and 20% to R-M17. Haplogroups common in the Middle East (J and G) and in South Western Asia (R-L23*) occur at frequencies of 19% and 5%, respectively. Haplogroups C, N and Q, distinctive for Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking populations, occur at the negligible frequency of only 1.5%...........

Eastern Bulgaria indicating that the Balkan Mountains have been permeable to human movements. The lineage analysis provided the following interesting results: (i) R-L23* is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13 has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the arrival of farming; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779



if you do not understand
the major propaganda of Albanians who run great nationalistic era, is that all E in Balkans are Albanians,
away from E is not IE so is not Albanian Greek or Serbian, but a previous substractum, who got assimilated by IE,
so I ask you, a Palestinian who came at 70's or earlier in Greece, and bear a son, is his son Albanian, cause he is E-V13 carrier, and lives in Balkans?

plz feel free to tell whatever you want, but plz read the above first,

I dont agree that Albanians have some kind of patent on E-V13 if they think that, they are ridiculous but its not even possible to think that because the regions is very similar in its percentages mix of haplogroup. E-V13 is not the only haplogroup found in modern Albanians. What happened 10,000 years ago and all the events that followed are not the same. However as an outsider I feel that I also know that Albanians are unjustly being told about their genealogy often nastily as if they have dropped in the Balkans from outer space with a malicious agenda in mind. The fact is they have a right like everybody else to defend their position like everybody else does. Dna results do show that Albanian People did not fall from space and are very much part and parcel of the Balkans no matter the petty arguments that are brought without any serious scientific backing.
 
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@ Maleth,


your problem is that you say nothing more than the things I also say,
your last paragraph is showing that in deep you agree with me,
but your problem is that I disaggree that E-V13 is a Balkanic mark as I can see,

again you tell me nothing more, and clearly since you did not deny that E-v13 is not a mark of a ceratin population,
BUT HOW COME YOU CALL ME A RACIST, WHEN I ANSWER TO AN EXTRA NATIONALIST
"my neighbor is a Palestinian E, should I baptise him Albanian?
"s
since you also admit that E-V13 exists in Palestine?
as about Jews of Thessaloniki, no they count on modern population searches and results cause they existed before 1860 (search line date) while Pontic Greeks are not in any results cause came after 1860,
and there is some E-81 and E-V13 by what I discussed with some, (no need to give known family names)

Now about the epipaleolithic balkans and the possibility of E to existed or to mutate in Epipalaiolithic Bulgaria?
Balkans do not have mesolithic era except some areas in Dinaric alps and North of Danube

perhaps you are refering to this
<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

and this?
<<In the plot of Figure 3C, the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>
PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the oposite, nothing
possibilities
 
Originally Posted by LeBrok
In order to make such maps we need a lot of data from all over the Europe. By the nature of this data collection it will be a self reporting project. It is not the best way, but it might be the only way to gather data for these maps. Please post your EEF, WHG, EEF numbers with place of birth, or place of birth of your parents if they came from different region than you were born in.

Little explanation of these admixtures:

These admixtures can roughly tell you about your origin.
WHG - West Hunter Gatherers, were the Mesolithic Europeans spread pretty much all over the Europe around 10 to 5 thousand BCE.
EEF - Early European Farmers, were the Neolithic inhabitants of Europe, the first farmers who came 10 thousand years ago from Near East and first settled in Balkans and the rest of South Europe. In next 5 thousand years they've spread to every corner of Europe.
ANE - Ancient North Eurasians, the hunter-gatherers and nomads from far East Europe and Central Asia. Latest research papers point to Indo-Europeans bringing ANE to every place in Europe.

Example:
Poland, Siedlce (country, city or region)
EEF - 45
WHG - 39
ANE - 16

One can say that I'm 39% very ancient European, 45% farmer from Near East, and 16% Indo-European. Or that I'm 55% Hunter-Gatherer and 45% Farmer.

More information:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...est-three.html

Some data from the paper by Lazaridis:
EEF WHG ANE
0.781 0.092 0.127 -- Albanian
0.931 0 0.069 -- Ashkenazi_Jew
0.593 0.293 0.114 -- Basque
0.418 0.431 0.151 -- Belorussian
0.715 0.177 0.108 -- Bergamo
0.712 0.147 0.141 -- Bulgarian
0.561 0.293 0.145 -- Croatian
0.495 0.338 0.167 -- Czech
0.495 0.364 0.141 -- English
0.322 0.495 0.183 -- Estonian
0.554 0.311 0.135 -- French
0.675 0.195 0.13 -- French_South
0.792 0.058 0.151 -- Greek
0.558 0.264 0.179 -- Hungarian
0.394 0.456 0.15 -- Icelandic
0.364 0.464 0.172 -- Lithuanian
0.932 0 0.068 -- Maltese
0.411 0.428 0.161 -- Norwegian
0.457 0.385 0.158 -- Orcadian
0.713 0.125 0.163 -- Pais_Vasco
0.817 0.175 0.008 -- Sardinian
0.39 0.428 0.182 -- Scottish
0.903 0 0.097 -- Sicilian
0.809 0.068 0.123 -- Spanish
0.746 0.136 0.118 -- Tuscan
0.462 0.387 0.151 -- Ukrainian
Here is the explanation how you can calculate your admixtures:
http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...europeans.html



noUseForAname
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (possibly from Balkans) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?).

This might correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.
It also correlates with I2a1...So only possible early Neolithic in Europe I2a1 and E-V13?....Then I2a1 and E-V13 has nothing to do with near east farmers nor even migrating from the near east

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
Cruciani et al. (2007)

On the other side looks like its pretty complicated, if we can say the more Yanmaya R* (4,500) from the graph the less Mesolithic or Neolthic, and more the WHG and EEF then more Mesolithic and early Neolithic. Credit goes to Sardinains and Bulgarians with pretty high I2a1 and Albanians and Greeks with E-V13
How come then Spain, tuscany, basques, Bergamo has one of the highest EEF and its very very high in R1b?....
 
Originally Posted by noUseForAname
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (possibly from Balkans) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?).

LeBrok
To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

noUseForAname
This correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.

LeBrok
If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif
 
Originally Posted by LeBrok
To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.


noUseForAname
Recent discoveries in Europe, such as Cyprus and mainland Greece has shown that farming started early in south east Europe. In Franchthi Cavein Greece there are no certain gathering of plant foods attested before c.11,000 bc, although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae family may come from plants gathered to furnish soft bedding or for the dye which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at c. 11,000bc are lentils, vetch, pistachios, and almonds. Then c. 10,500bc appear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither wild oats nor wild barley become at all common until c. 7000bc[19][20] in Cyprus. The oldest agricultural settlement ever found on a Mediterranean island has been discovered in Klimonas. between 9100 and 8600 bc

Anthropological and archaeological evidence from sites across Southwest Asia and North Africaindicate use of wild grain (e.g., from the c. 20,000bc site of Ohalo II in Israel, many Natufian sites in theLevant and from sites along the Nile in the 10th millennium bc).
It was not until after 9500 bc that the eight so-called founder crops of agriculture appear: first emmer andeinkorn wheat, then hulled barley, peas,lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas and flax. These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB) sites in the Levant
By 7000 bc, sowing and harvesting reached Mesopotamia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

What i understand is not the near East (considering Syria, Anatolia, Mesopotamia) but the far north east Africa (M-78 peak) and the very south west Levant like Ohalo.
So that might mean that by 10,000 BC there was already farming in the far south east Balkans that came from north east Africa and the far south west Levant.
It looks like the peak was south east Africa which at the same time spread in one direction at Crete and then Peloponnese and the other spread through Levant Syria and reached Mesopotamia by 7,000 BC.

It also correlates with M-78 and E-V13 link through north east Africa and not the other way around through north Levant and Anatolia.

Maybe not as a minority as you mention because who else was there before G2a I2a1 and E-V13 and with higher numbers?, i Would suppose (at early Neolithic through mid Neolithic) the Majority in Europe was:

1: I2a1 & I1
2: E-V13
3: G2a1 (dont know why or how by today is still low)
4: R1b (became a majority after 4,000 ybp)
5: R1a (pushed more south to current Europe from Today Russia after around 4,500 ybp)
J2 not much info, (probably came in more numbers after the bronze age
 
Last edited:
@ Maleth,


your problem is that you say nothing more than the things I also say,
your last paragraph is showing that in deep you agree with me,

Jolly good

but your problem is that I disaggree that E-V13 is a Balkanic mark as I can see,

Its not a problem for me, it is kind of obvious that E-V13 is a Balkanic marker which did not happen with the arrival of Turks or whatever causes so much hate in your region, but obvious it has been there for thousands of years and VERY MUCH INCLINED to believe that it has been born there too (Bulgaria maybe?!). But I would not be too presumptions to say that is a fact because its not yet. The indications neither lay to Palestinians neither with slaves and neither with Gypsies, or North Africans for that matter (all absurd comments presented on this forum with a particular agenda of course). E-V13 has a different route, its not the same as E-M81 and neither as E-M34. What baffles me is your lack of pride in your own people since E-V13 is also often called a Greek Marker (which like all others it is not as its shared by a group of countries anyway) Now If I had to reason that with my own people I would consider myself to have a problem espesially in an autosmal contest when most haplogroups have become intertwined one way or another.



BUT HOW COME YOU CALL ME A RACIST, WHEN I ANSWER TO AN EXTRA NATIONALIST
I symatitically mentioned you have a phobia never said you were racist. Phobia and racism are two different things. I believe nationalism is a huge thing in the balkans not only with Albanians but that is a result of more recent event and maybe terrible memories and nothing to do with DNA. DNA shows you are brothers and sisters but decided on different carriers so you all hate each other for it.

"my neighbor is a Palestinian E, should I baptise him Albanian?

fine you mentioned this the forth time. You are telling me to understand it. Maybe you can use more appropriate words?

*)Palestinians are people who live in the Middle east and passed their amount of tromas with deplacments and so on.
*) Baptism is a religious term not sure what your connotation is in regards to Albanians

since you also admit that E-V13 exists in Palestine?

You are making big efforts to find some kind of justification for your E-V13 in the Balkans. What I told you is E-V13 is only 1 to 3 % in Palestine. There are much more E-V34 and E-M124, but why you need to single out E-V13 is beyond me - seriously. E-V13 comes in 45% in the Peloponnese (are they your enemies?) for example so how can you compare? E-V13 is not E-M81 and neither E-M124 also not E-V34. We are talking about splits here that happened far much earlier the Ottoman occupation in the Balkans.

as about Jews of Thessaloniki, no they count on modern population searches and results cause they existed before 1860 (search line date) while Pontic Greeks are not in any results cause came after 1860,
and there is some E-81 and E-V13 by what I discussed with some, (no need to give known family names)

Again you are using same tactic to single out E-V13 as some kind of foreign additions to a homogeneous ancient group. Even on today genetic studies E-V13 in Jewish groups is minmal. The strongest is E-M34 and lots of J1's and J'2s. So you chose for whatever reason to single out E-V13 amoungst a Jewish group. So according to your logic the Jews gave the balkans their E-V13 marker. If so there should be MUCH more J1's and we know there are much J2 (which incorrectly used to be called the Phoenician marker). Lets add this theory with that of Slaves, gypsies, and north Africans to keep the debate lively and well.

Now about the epipaleolithic balkans and the possibility of E to existed or to mutate in Epipalaiolithic Bulgaria?
Balkans do not have mesolithic era except some areas in Dinaric alps and North of Danube

perhaps you are refering to this
<<Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.>>

and this?
<<In the plot of Figure 3C, the populations are distributed in a longitudinal pattern generated essentially by the PC1. This separation is determined by the prevalence of the East Asian Hg O-M175 and the Central Asian Hg C-RPS4Y in the east and the increasing frequencies of Hgs J-M172 and R-M173 in the west. The PC2, which is mainly due to Hgs I-M170 and E-SRY4064, clearly separates Bulgarians from the compared populations. On the whole, Bulgarians are distant from Altaic populations and populations residing in the north of the Pamir region and they are also distant from Kazan Tatars and Iranians, although to a lesser extent.>>
PC1 and PC2 marks are connected with some certain Hg there, while few km away can be connected with other Hg, or the opposite, nothing
possibilities

I did not say it, the paper does and it does not look amateurish to me either. Do you think all these papers have a nationalistic agenda?

Ed. and to be more complete and hope I do not add to your horrors (sorry if it upsets you) that all the minimal E-V13 admixtures in Jewish Arab and North Africa societies can well be a result of Greek expansion in Greek classical times as Greek migrations to these lands is VERY WELL documented and defiantly not the other way round.
 
How about checking post 170 on page 7 on this same thread, I will guide you to all the other innuendos and connotations as I come across them. And Yetos is not only one using this tactic by the way. It does not really boder me per se. The intent just gets so obsessively repetitive and boring to a subject I enjoy following closely.

Nope, he really didn't say that. You've taken it the wrong way.
 
Nope, he really didn't say that. You've taken it the wrong way.

ok I will ask an English Literature teacher to decipher it for me as it needs some serious work on it. :rolleyes: :grin:
 
ok I will ask an English Literature teacher to decipher it for me as it needs some serious work on it. :rolleyes: :grin:

baptise and βαφω βαφη baphe βαπτιζω,

word in Koine and modern Greek wich means I GIVE NEW STATUS/PAINT/NAME,

Βαπτω = Ι paint
Baptise = I input in liguid paint or chemicals something to become clean,

it originally had the meaning in mettalurgy, in works like plating

in Christianity Christians confess
'Eν βαπτισμα εις αφεσιν αμαρτιων'

one baptism in oρder of sin absolution

means the old man enters the dye/water cleans and transform and GETS A NEW NAME AND A NEW ID,

so the word Baptise means to give a new ID to someone

so by the phrase
My Palestinian neighor , should I baptise him Albanian?

means that with

You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


we baptise people to something, WHICH IS WRONG

and is not my phobia ΦΟΒEΙΑ (Φοβος the dog of Ares/March)


besides about the Link you gave I read it,
it combines PC[SUB]123[/SUB] with Y-Dna to get the age,
but little bit southern
only I1 is PC1 and E is PC4 much later than PC2
how you combine that? what you get from that combination?
 
Yes Yetos, reputation.

People make fudge "to prove" what can not be proved.

Some wrong need to fabricate a "national superiority".
 
Can you cite the source please, i am very interested to read, from all the scientific papers and research at least 9 out of 10 argue that Albanian language is a separate branch of indo European and split from Hellenic (not modern greek) at least 3,000 ybp. You have obviously found a needle in the sea lol, however i urge you to find some more...

Needle in the sea?! It looks like: I do not believe in China because I did not see China.

The scientists used new computation-modeling method, their primary result was that Indo-European language appeared in Anatholia about 7,800 9,800 years ago, groups as (Greek - Armenian) or (Indic Iranic - Albanian) etc. are product of research.

But I will open new thread.

...
My personal opinion is that J2 has played a much larger role in the creation of the Indo European language, not only R1b or R1a. I do not why is undervalued role of J2 carriers in the creation of IE languages.
 
besides about the Link you gave I read it,
it combines PC[SUB]123[/SUB] with Y-Dna to get the age,
but little bit southern
only I1 is PC1 and E is PC4 much later than PC2
how you combine that? what you get from that combination?

It means:-

Conclusion,

Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)
 
It means:-

Conclusion,

Interesting results from the lineage analysis can be summarized as follows: (i) R-L23*, the eastern branch of haplogroup R-M269, is present in Eastern Bulgaria since the post glacial period; (ii) haplogroup E-V13, which probably originated in Western Asia, has a Mesolithic age in Bulgaria from where it expanded after the spread of farming marked by haplogroup G-P15, J-M410 representatives; (iii) haplogroup J-M241 probably reflects the Neolithic westward expansion of farmers from the earliest sites along the Black Sea.

Meaning E-V13 has been around in the Balkans much longer then what you believe, even before any of todays known religions. That would also mean that E-V13 arrived before Gypsies or Jews and Palestinians, Slaves or North Africans, and no Baptism was needed to obtain any new identity. Passports and borders did not exist in those times ;)

Maleth
Yetos spoke about different things, that someone cannot identify haplogroup with nation, these are two completely different things.

For example:

among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc.

And I reacted:

Really you think that E1b is Albanian?

It is nonsense, too (as for I2a1b2a1a3 A356).

You can read: E1b1b

Austria 8%
Belarus 4%
Belgium 5%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 12%
Bulgaria 23.5%
Czech Republic 6%
Cyprus 20%
Denmark 2.5%
...
France 7.5%
Germany 5.5%
Greece 21%
Hungary 8%
Italy 13.5%
...
Macedonia 21.5%
Malta 9%
Moldova 13%
Montenegro 27%
...
Chuvash (Russia) 13%
Mordvins (Russia) 9%
Tatars (Russia) 10%
...
Serbia 18%
Slovakia 6%
Slovenia 5%
...
Ukraine 5.5%
Etc.


And all of them are Albanians just they doesn't know that they are Albanians.

...
I think to understand what confuse you.

In the Balkans when we say baptised (it doesn't matter which language) it has more meanings, not only administering baptism (in the church).

Meanings: to mark, to designate, to name, to address etc.

He said in the following meaning to hrvat22:

"my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I (because he is carrier of haplogroup E-V13) consider him as Albanian?"

In another words, he said that haplogroup is completely different than nation, that members of different nations can be E-V13 carriers; for that he can only be right.
 
Needle in the sea?! It looks like: I do not believe in China because I did not see China.

The scientists used new computation-modeling method, their primary result was that Indo-European language appeared in Anatholia about 7,800 9,800 years ago, groups as (Greek - Armenian) or (Indic Iranic - Albanian) etc. are product of research.

But I will open new thread.
...
My personal opinion is that J2 has played a much larger role in the creation of the Indo European language, not only R1b or R1a. I do not why is undervalued role of J2 carriers in the creation of IE languages.

Can you send me the source please?

Once again if you have gone through the threads (and if your interested to read more) and online there is a majority that claim that Ancient Greek and Albanian language is already split at around 3,000 ybp, i don't want to reiterate thing over and over again....

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic and unrelated to the eastern branch, therefore it is not a brach of an Indic/Iranian language.

sn-languages672H.jpg
attachment.php

TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg

industries_research_150303_Indo%20European%20Ancient%20DNA_thumbnail-2.jpg


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0

http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htmhttp:/
pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf

https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/
 

This is why i meant that more south is more ancient in current Europe, as far as we are talking about early Neolithic, and if we are talking about indigenous
natives of European DNA (at least for Early Neolithic period), not taking into account current Russia


HaplogroupPossible time of originPossible place of origin

I217,000 years agoBalkans
I2b13,000 years agoCentral Europe
I2a11,000 years agoBalkans
E1b1b-V138,500 years agoBalkans
I2b19,000 years agoGermany
I2a18,000 years agoSardinia
I2a22,500 years agoPoland, Central Europe
E1b1b-M815,500 years agoMaghreb
I15,000 years agoScandinavia
R1b-L214,000 years agoCentral or Eastern Europe
R1b-S283,500 years agoaround the Alps
R1b-S213,000 years agoFrisia or Central Europe
I2b1a< 3,000 years agoBritain

this is the thread...http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations
 

It is AMAZING that albanian is such an old language that Greek and Roman historians have never mention or recorded it , they mention and recorded all the Anatolian branch as per above the Albanian group and they mention and recorded what is below the Albanian branch.................it seems very very strange that Albanian which sits in the middle is completely missing.
 

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