Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

I have not studied the Albanian type E1b V13...

If Albanian in today Albania has E1b 1200 and Croat in Croatia E1b 1201, this means that Croat came from Albania or his ancestor is Albanian. if someone in Algeria has E1b 500172 what does he have with Albania ...

I do not know Albanian types E1b so I speak in general ...

If you have data for Albanian and Croatian E1b haplotypes I would be grateful ...


I think NUFA has explained quite in depth. In other words there is no Albanian E_V13 but all E-V13 found in Europe are pretty much similar. The only further downstream reading we have is E-V13 (E-L542) (E-143 and 142) (E-L117) E-L241). See links below for better understanding

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13?iframe=yresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13/default.aspx?section=yresults

These are more or less evenly distributed around Europe so none of them represent with an certainty a particular region even within the balkans themselves which is the only hotspot for E-V13 in the world. Even the 7000 E-V13 found in a neolithical site in norther Spain is similar to the balkan type.
 
I think you have plenty of information regarding E-V13 in this Thread if you read from the start to the end.

I wouldn't say there is "Albanian types E1b" nor for any other populations (as dna are pretty mixed to all populations).
E-V13 is 10,000 ybp and its a subcalde of M -78. Therefore there is non European E1b because E1b is very old 40,000 ybp. (everyone is descend from Africa if we go way back)

Also, we couldn't say (if we look at wording) if Croatians have E-V13 their ancestor is Albanian cause at those times of course there was no Albanians nor Greek. However, we can say that current populations of so called Albanians have highest E-V13 in the world (if we are talking about population or ethnicity) and are descent from E-V13.


Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
Cruciani et al. (2007)

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were inhaplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as beingsimilar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] The area in and around Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

I ask for specific Albanian E1b....Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 not I2a..

Croatian I2a is 15,000 years old .. what does I2a has with Croats as a nation...

Today Croats are mix R1a Z280 type and I2a1b2a1a3 A356 type...who was I2a not even god knows...

Distant ancestor of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 is I2a1b2a1 CTS5966 that has nothing to do with the Croats as nation or people in Croatia, southern Poland or Germani....maybe these people with I2a1b2a1 called themselves Chinese..

But direct ancestor Croatian I2a1b2a1a3 A356 is I2a1b2a1a S17250 or by experimental genealogy tree mutation I-Y354 which has its source in the place and time of existence White Croatia in southern Poland. Only for those people, with this mutation I can say that they Croatian origin and previously they could be called Arabs or Mongols..

 
I think NUFA has explained quite in depth. In other words there is no Albanian E_V13 but all E-V13 found in Europe are pretty much similar. The only further downstream reading we have is E-V13 (E-L542) (E-143 and 142) (E-L117) E-L241). See links below for better understanding

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13?iframe=yresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/E-V13/default.aspx?section=yresults

These are more or less evenly distributed around Europe so none of them represent with an certainty a particular region even within the balkans themselves which is the only hotspot for E-V13 in the world. Even the 7000 E-V13 found in a neolithical site in norther Spain is similar to the balkan type.

All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
 
All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

I think you are not understanding or I am no understanding you. The general term haplogroup E is split in some 40 subclades. E-V13 is one of them and the only one that is only found in Europe (in the Balkans with any high percentages. It is found in very low frequencies outside of Europe (1,2,3%) and much of that can be easily attributed to the Greek expansion in its height. (They are documented and not just presumed as we are talking history here when writing was invented and used) That E-V13 is split further in some 6 subclades but they do not specify any particular region as you can have example my L-542 is in Spain, Sweden, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria and Belarus. More or less same with others.
 
I think you are not understanding or I am no understanding you. The general term haplogroup E is split in some 40 subclades. E-V13 is one of them and the only one that is only found in Europe (in the Balkans with any high percentages. It is found in very low frequencies outside of Europe (1,2,3%) and much of that can be easily attributed to the Greek expansion in its height. (They are documented and not just presumed as we are talking history here when writing was invented and used) That E-V13 is split further in some 6 subclades but they do not specify any particular region as you can have example my L-542 is in Spain, Sweden, Albania, Greece, Bulgaria and Belarus. More or less same with others.

Far as I know E1b V13 exist about 4,000 years in the Balkans...what does 4000 years BC has do with the Greek, perhaps even I2a was in Greek and that would mean that Croat are descendants of some Greeks because our old ancestors were there before 8000 years..

Where is the source of V13 in the Balkans, which is specifically Albanian and Greek V13..?

It is not quantum physics... if source of V13 is in Greece at the time of Greeks and if Albanians have that tipe V13 then Albanians are Greek origin, they came from Greek.. logic..

V13 comes into Croatia through Vlach who are Albanian origin ... maybe are Greek origin...you prove that there Greeks and that we will respect..
 
Where is the source of V13 in the Balkans, which is specifically Albanian and Greek V13..?

You got a non quantum physics answer, and for the third time you ask the same questions. So no offence but I give up, I have better things to do. Enjoy your debate
 
All haplotypes have mutated and become new and new haplotypes only E1b V13 stayed unchanged...

Croats are before ten years ago had only I2a and they were brothers with half of Europe, today we have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356... Do you notice a difference..


You have on Eupedija a lot mutations behind E1b V13..

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Croats before ten years ago had only I2a yDNA? Are you serious?

I hate to break this news to you, but Croatian y DNA has been studied for a while, and all the other haplogroups didn't suddenly appear in the last ten years for goodness sakes...click on the numbers and it will give you a link to the study and its date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Maybe our Balkan members also need to acquaint or re-acquaint themselves with this authoritative paper on Balkan autosomal dna, which is much more informative as to real genetic relatedness:

Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043

I find it astounding that there is this degree of animosity among the various Balkan groups when you're all so similar to one another.

Balkan autosomal variation.jpg
 
Croats before ten years ago had only I2a yDNA? Are you serious?

I hate to break this news to you, but Croatian y DNA has been studied for a while, and all the other haplogroups didn't suddenly appear in the last ten years for goodness sakes...click on the numbers and it will give you a link to the study and its date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

Maybe our Balkan members also need to acquaint or re-acquaint themselves with this authoritative paper on Balkan autosomal dna, which is much more informative as to real genetic relatedness:

Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043

I find it astounding that there is this degree of animosity among the various Balkan groups when you're all so similar to one another.

View attachment 7271


I2a which Croats had before 10 years ago is now I2a1b2a1a3 A356...or 45% male population of Croats...


Standing at the Gateway to Europe...L. Kovacevik et al:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25148043


When you see that it says Croatian mainland instantly you know that it cites research for Croats from year 2003 which is outdated..


*Croatian mainland from Barac´ et al. (2003)

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf
 
I2a which Croats had before 10 years ago is now I2a1b2a1a3 A356...or 45% male population of Croats...





When you see that it says Croatian mainland instantly you know that it cites research for Croats from year 2003 which is outdated..


*Croatian mainland from Barac´ et al. (2003)

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf

Maybe we have a language issue here, and I misunderstood you. Yes, we now have more resolution of the yDna lineages than we had ten years ago. However, Croats are not just yDna I2a, however resolved or unresolved. They carry other ydna lineages as well, which is clearly outlined in the article to which I linked.

In addition, a man's yDna accounts for about 2% of total genomic make-up. The rest is autosomal dna. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.
 
. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.


I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..
 
I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..


I see you continue play your music, in a solo violin,

Well NOOOOOOOOO
R1a in Balkans has nothing to do with ex-I2a2 Din,

Reason

Were R1a exists in High, I2a1b is Low,
were I2ab1 is high R1a is low,
So stop bullshit,
go little south, R1a in N Greece, were R1a exists are areas Full of Greek Speakers and Gaulish/Aromanian, in the heart of Dorian homeland, areas away from even what Skopje claim as Slav existance
and I2a1b is almost upsent,
Take a look at nearby Bulgaria? where is R1a and where is I2a1b? are they same spot? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
take a look at you country, Croatia,
DO DALMATIAN AND ZAGREB HAVE SAME ANALOGIES OF R1a AND I2a1b? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

why?
cause R1a existed in Balkans before the entrance of Croats or Serbs or Bulgarians

so by observing better the spots better, you make wiser conclusions

except if you want to tell me that almighty Slavs who cross all the way from Poland or Ukraine and conguer Balkans, siege Con/polis, defeated Romans, Byzantines Turks Avars etc etc
Had the great ones, Dusan and Cymeon
ended to become Greeks without a fight, :useless:

even in the chronicles of st Dimitrios, were all slavic tribes who entered Greece are mentioned, with the areas that dwell, we do not have R1a,

maybe something is wrong,
either my observation,
either your conclusion!!!!!!


thank you
I love you too
 
Maybe we have a language issue here, and I misunderstood you. Yes, we now have more resolution of the yDna lineages than we had ten years ago. However, Croats are not just yDna I2a, however resolved or unresolved. They carry other ydna lineages as well, which is clearly outlined in the article to which I linked.

In addition, a man's yDna accounts for about 2% of total genomic make-up. The rest is autosomal dna. Autosomally, there is very little difference between any people in the Balkans, and almost none between the various groups in the western Balkans. The evidence is there, and it's very recent.

There was a very strong desire among some Croatian anthropologists that percentage of I2a be as large as possible. Intentional selecting a sample can garble results.

In a way that is politically understandable, they wanted to have as few R1a, to show that they do not have much to do with the Slavs.

But Croatian R1a is significant and with the new results, things are changing, and there are international researches.

Maciamo, collecting all results, came to the following for Croatia: I2a = 37%, R1a = 24%, and there are big differences by regions, north of Croatia is more R1a, south is more I2a.

It is irony that some people in Serbia loved to have larger R1a, but according Maciamo in Serbia: I2a = 34%, R1a = 16%.

R1a is larger in Croatia than in Serbia and hence some Croatian and Serbian nationalists are sad.

Balkan skirmishes, it is very hard for nonBalkans to understand it.
 
I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which have Croats comes from White Croatia, the same have Bosniaks, Montenegrins and Serbs in almost half of population.

R1a Z280 type which have Croats have also Serbs, Bosnians, etc.

R1a type Z280 has the same epicenter in White Croatia..

About 65 percent of the male population in Croatia came from White Croatia...

Similar percentage is in Bosnians, Montenegrins etc .. it is logical that we are same people becouse we came as White Croats on Balkans..Genetically it is undeniable..

Someone can find Serbs, Bosniacs etc. in the Balkans with haplogroup I2a1b2a1a3 A356 all he or she wants.

Did Croats gain a certificate of this haplogroup? It is stupid.

White Croatia is myth. Nobody knows if White Croatia existed and where it was.

(Of course and White Serbia is myth).

In these myths only children can believe.

Someone can read serious scientists, for example: Becoming Slav, Becoming Croats, by Daniel Dzino:

Danijel Dzino is Australian scientist, Macquarie University. He is Croatian origin.

page 112

The story of the arrival of the Croats and Serbs from 'White Croatia' and 'White Serbia' is nothing more than away to explain and rationalise the social and cultural change through a misinterpretation of the events from Late Antiquity. The narrative is no different from too obviously fictive story that Diocletian founded Diocleia, or that he instigated the Roman colonisation of Dalmatia, which was the origo gentis of the Dalmatian Romani. If Constantine indeed used the existing origo gentis of the Croats in chapter 30, we cannot see it is realistic, or even original, especially because an almost identical myth of the arrival of Bulgars was mentoined in Theopanes the Confessor, as well as the patriarch Nicephorus of Constantinople.

page 114

Therefore, if the story of the arrival of the Croats in the DAI is indeed part of the Croat oral discourse, then we can see it as politically and ideologically motivated myth that legitimated the existing situation and the political domination the group over Dalmatia and Pannonia through common ancestors: the imaginary brothers and sisters mentoined in the DAI.

DAI = De Administrando Imperio
 
There was a very strong desire among some Croatian anthropologists that percentage of I2a be as large as possible. Intentional selecting a sample can garble results.

In a way that is politically understandable, they wanted to have as few R1a, to show that they do not have much to do with the Slavs.

But Croatian R1a is significant and with the new results, things are changing, and there are international researches.

Maciamo, collecting all results, came to the following for Croatia: I2a = 37%, R1a = 24%, and there are big differences by regions, north of Croatia is more R1a, south is more I2a.

It is irony that some people in Serbia loved to have larger R1a, but according Maciamo in Serbia: I2a = 34%, R1a = 16%.

R1a is larger in Croatia than in Serbia and hence some Croatian and Serbian nationalists are sad.

Balkan skirmishes, it is very hard for nonBalkans to understand it.

I just find it all very sad, Garrick. It's a beautiful part of the world, with lovely people under other circumstances, as I can attest as I have a number of friends from there: Croatia, Albania, Romania, and even one from Serbia. The best boss I ever had was a woman executive of Serbian ancestry, not that she could speak a word of it. :) Thankfully, although the others were all natives they had already immigrated to the U.S. by the time of all the fratricide, but they have relatives who suffered because of it.

It's absolutely senseless. If modern dna can't make people see how similar they are then it makes you wonder if there's any hope for humanity.
 
I just find it all very sad, Garrick. It's a beautiful part of the world, with lovely people under other circumstances, as I can attest as I have a number of friends from there: Croatia, Albania, Romania, and even one from Serbia. The best boss I ever had was a woman executive of Serbian ancestry, not that she could speak a word of it. :) Thankfully, although the others were all natives they had already immigrated to the U.S. by the time of all the fratricide, but they have relatives who suffered because of it.

It's absolutely senseless. If modern dna can't make people see how similar they are then it makes you wonder if there's any hope for humanity.

Serbia and Croatia are pretty countries, with reach cultures and much other things.

And as to the origin, everyone can see that Serbs and Croats have a similar haplogroups, differences are small.

But the conflict between them, most irrational by its nature, is difficult for someone from the outside to understand, which is a shame because cooperation is much better.

There are some historical reasons, when modern nations formed in XIX century, ethnicity in the Balkans is determined by religion, religion brings people together but different religions can divide people.

But there are good role models, the Serbs and Croats can learn how Scandinavian nations know how to cooperate with each other
 
^ As for the "R1a = Slavs; I2a = Non-Slavs" notion:

Do you think that the guy with R1a Z280 who died 3100 years ago near Halberstadt was Slavic-speaking?

The TMRCA and modern distribution of I2a-Din looks like a better candidate for a haplogroup that spread with Slavs.

Of course assuming that early Slavs had only one haplogrup, or one subclade of one haplogroup, is ridiculous to start with.

In general the more I research this, the more I think that associating a given hg with one specific ethno-linguistic group is ridiculous. For example there is absolutely no evidence that such R1b-U106 was originally and exclusively Germanic, and that it only spread with Germanics. Its TMRCA is much older than Germanic language. There is also no evidence that Slavs had a monopoly for R1a. It seems that the modern range of distribution of R1a in North-Eastern Europe was already established in the Bronze Age, considering recent ancient DNA finds.

For example Copper-Bronze Age patterns in Y-DNA show that the boundary of R1b (to the west) and R1a (to the east) was in Central Germany. This looks the same way today - if anuthing, nowadays the boundary is more to the east, closer to the Oder River.

But I2a-Din is a fairly young subclade of I2, and it could be spreading with Slavs. Though maybe with someone else too.
 
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg



So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
 
Last edited:
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:

According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:

1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg



So obviously the more EN and WEHG the more Ancient European, the more Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlates with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf
Please don't mix the EEF, ANE and WHG, which are part of autosomal (whole genome - Y DNA) composition of Europeans with uni-parental haplotype markers of E-V13, R1b and others, which are indicators of Y chromosome only (2% of whole genome). Technical we can have E-V13 person with 30 percent of EEF. There also might be R1a person in Sardinia with 90% of EEF.
WHG and ANE were admixtures of original European hunter-gatherers, ANE was in Eastern Eruope. EEF, or rather Early Neolithic Farmers admixture, came from Near East about 10 years ago.
 
Again crossing 2 different variants to extract a conclusion,
that can work as possibility but not as determing method,

logic is not

Policeman is an instrument (of law)
Guitar is a (musical) instrument
so Policeman is a Guitar,

Crossing 2 different variants, can give only possible, but not certain/determing results,


possibility of might be like this, is not 100% certain, and sometimes can be correct, and some not, cause Policeman is not a Violin,

it can be used, to create an hypothesis, a possible scenario, which might be TRUE or FALSE using logic, etc
but not to determing or certify something, a THEORY, or a LAW
 
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg



So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.
And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

This is misinterpretation. Mixing two different entities. Therefore conclusions are completely wrong.
 

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