Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

[Милан М.]

As Милан М mentions modern Greek is derived from old church slavonic.

I never said such a thing,i said that Old Church Slavonic was based on a Slavic dialect once spoken in what is now Macedonia in Greece.

 

[Garrick]

There are some 30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian.^[79] Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.^[11]

These words could come from Northern Epirotes, when they assimilated in Albanians, between 5-10 century. These words have little.

No one genetic study says that Albanians are 4.000 years in the Balkans. It would be nonsense, because Albanian as nation don't exist 4.000 years.

But there are a lot Romanian words in Albanian (which have Dacian, Slavic and Latin origin). Dacian was language of inhabitants of Dacia (today Romania) before Romanization.)

agjёroj (Alb.) to fast (Eng.)a ajuna (Rom.), Origin: Latin
argёsh; crude raft; harrow; Argeş; Dacian
argjend; silver; argint; Latin
arqitё; willow; rachita; Slavic
ashkё; wood splinter; aşchie Latin
avull; steam, vapor; abur; Dacian
baltё; swamp, marsh; balta; Dacian
bardhё; white; barza Ciconia sp.; Dacian
bark; belly, abdomen; burta; Dacian
barkё; boat; barca; Latin
bashkё; fleece, wool; basca; Dacian
begatё; rich; bogat; Slavic
bijё; daughter; cf. baiat boy; Dacian
bishtajё; pod, hull, pea; pastaie pod; Dacian
blude; wooden bowl; blid; Slavic
braz(d)ё; furrow; brazda; Slavic
brekё; pants; a se imbraca, bracinari; Latin
breshkё; tortoise; broasca frog; Dacian
brez; belt; briu, brine; Dacian
brushtull; heather; brusture; Dacian
bryme; frost; bruma; Latin
bukur; beautiful; bucuros happy; Dacian
but; big barrel; bute; Latin
buzё; lip, edge; buza; Dacian
cicё; breast, nipple; tita; Dacian
cjap; he-goat; tap; Dacian
ças; time; ceas; Slavic
çetё; clan, armed group; ceata, group; Slavic
çetinё; pine-tree; cetina, fir needles; Dacian

(to be continued) .

 

[Yetos]

You have given me some script from a student who said "Although not an expert in Historical and Comparative Indo-European Linguistics myself.

We are dealing here mostly with scientific studies and comparative Linguistics, good try finding a student who found some words (as all the languages in some form or the other borrow words from another)




I dont know how many times i have to explain it to you that there is no link from indic/iranic to Albanian (as per study). Again you just reiterate with NO (own opinion) at least try to answer the study arguing below.

Albanian is 6,500 ybp separate from Anatolian and Indo-Iropean (not indic/iranic) is separate from Anatolian at 6,500, THEN we have indic/iranic separate from its root Indo-Iranian at 4,600 ybp

If you check the colour indo-iranian at 6,500 with black colour and going to iranian (light violet colour) at 4,600 and indic with (violet colour) at 4,600 separate from indo-iranian.
Albanian RED colour separate from Anatolian at 6,500 ybp

Albanian is not even separate from indo-iranian as both branches separated from Anatolian at the same time 6,500 ybp by one (separate branch) going straight west and the other going straight east. Even if Albanian would come from indo-iranian (not indic/iranic) then how could it reach the same time 6,500 when it would had to cross from indo-iranian location to Anatolia then to south east Europe?

Hope you understand by now....





You mean serious scientist who give "mythical fictional theories" and those Dacians (who are 100BC coming from north Carpathian) who write fairytales (Albanian came very late, 2nd Century) when Albanians are at least (at south east Europe) 4,335 ybp (genetically) and with language even more (Linguistic studies).

We are talking about thousands of years apart.

At least you should try to find some study who criticizes (one below)
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555





As Милан М mentions modern Greek is derived from old church slavonic.

Albanian has early Greek loans but of course not modern Greek loans because they are derived from old chuch Slavonic around 1,000 ybp and Early Greek is around 3,500 ybp
Early Greek loans[edit]
There are some 30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian.^[79] Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.^[11]

• bletë; "hive, bee" < Attic mélitta "bee" (vs. Ionic mélissa).^[80]
• drapër; "sickle" < (NW) drápanon^[81]
• kumbull; "plum" < kokkúmelon^[81]
• lakër; "cabbage, green vegetables" < láchanon "green; vegetable"^[82]
• lëpjetë; "orach, dock" < lápathon^[83]
• lyej; "to smear, oil" < *liwenj < *elaiwā < Gk elai(w)ṓn "oil"^{[clarification needed]}
• mokër; "millstone" < (NW) māchaná "device, instrument"^[79]
• mollë; "apple" < mēlon "fruit"^[84]
• pjepër; "melon" < pépōn
• presh; "leek" < práson^[82]
• shpellë; "cave" < spḗlaion
• trumzë; "thyme" < (NW) thýmbrā, thrýmbrē^[81]

Georgiev's Daco-Thracian theory picked up some momentum when linguists thought Illyrian was a centum language because of its affinity with Venetic. Then it turned out Venetic is very closely related to Latin. So far, we do have some Thracian inscriptions and one Dacian inscription. Nothing shows any relation to Albanian, especially Thracian.We also have no records of any significant migrations into Albania. The Byzantines recorded all Slavic, Gothic, and Avar incursions into the Balkans, so again it would be far fetched to consider Daco-Thracian as a main theory.

In addition Georgiev Draco-thracian theory is rejected by majority of scholars, and even so more with the new genetical studies which i have sourced and they attest to Albanian at the same current locations of Albanian speaking regions of at least 4,335 ybp.





As per above and majority of recent studies (genetically and linguistically) conclude that ancient Greek and Albanian is at least 5,000 ybp, and that there was no link of migrations of Albanians from the north especially Romania (there is no link at all genetically too).
Then this looks actually quite the opposite then (and logical) that Romanian language actually borrowed some Albanian as it is 5,000 ybp. Now am not saying that Albanians migrated to Romania but rather Romanian language borrowed from the south languages which were thousands of years older and came from the south.
I saw some areas of Romania have a quite of E-V13, so there might have been some migrations too, as we know that E-V13 never moved from north to south but rather south to north.

you are funny,

Ancient greek is 3500 max old, and Mycenean max 4000 y old,
the E-V13 of Bulgaria might be older than Albanian and Kossovo and Greece, (might = possible) since is crossed with PC2 and not PC4,
you take searches about G2a2 and you claim of E-V13

 

[Yetos]

I read about georgeiev theory, and you should mentioned earlier that. Georgeiev is the only one claiming such thing form Albanians, no one else. Illyrian theory is not something created by Albanians, but by the majority or scholars, and you know it. Georgeiev theory is not supported by other scholars. In Albanian language are loan words by archaic Latin and doric Greek, but those are not in vlachs and Romanian languages. You don't have even a single silly source mentioning any Albanian migration from Danube. Albanians always been there and this is accepted by all the scholars. Albanian language have two dialects ,tosk south and gheg north. Those two dialects are quite different, and the split had begun at least since Roman invasion. The border line between the two, is the ancient highway Via Egnatia . Even today, who speak gheg is from North via Egnatia, and who speak tosk is from south via Egnatia. Thanks the Greek language we have the evidence that Albanians were settled North east ancient Greece since classical historic era. [emoji6] . Albanian language has some connection even with Celtic language, so I am not surprised that they have some connection with iranic or Armenian language. There are some possibilities that Armenians migrate from Balkans before settling south Caucasus. Even the phrygians firstly dwell in Balkans before going at west Anatolia. For 50 years thracia was subjugated by Persian empire around fifth century bce.
And yes the ancient Hellenic civilization was really something very impressive, but I don't see any connection with the inhabitants of modern Greece. [emoji57] . And nobody said something against helenes on the posts above.

Albanian provocative Propaganda again,
Boring,
and lack of evidence,
just words, for consum

 

[Yetos]

I am just referring to the sources of Roman empire. There were avars some dacians and other tribes, but not Slavs on the Danube since the late Roman period. There are no sources for them till the last period

Yes but Duridanov's work as other also Connect Thracian with balTo-Slavic
so again you tell nothing,
cause Slavic although was not Balkanic language before 5 century, was familiar in sounds and aspirations and propbably in big vocabulary with Thracian,
Thracian are connected in a vocabulary with Albanian, but not only, also with Brygian Greek Balto-Slavic Armenian Aryan even Scottish Celtic

 

[Yetos]

Yes, but Phoenicians were middle eastern people also. I didn't said that all the Illyrian myth is true, but something about that might be true, maybe. To understand the truth, we need to use everything we got, like genetics, historic writing records, archaeology, and even the myths .


[emoji562]

How about the ancient city Phoenice in modern Albania?

 

[Yetos]

Baltic languages compose together with Slavic languages a distinct branch of IE. Baltic people are different by other Slavs. They are not Slavs. Maybe before 5000 years proto Albanians and proto Baltics were neighbors. They both have some same roots, maybe .

Albanian is a language of its own, but also Belongs to Balto-Germanic languages, the ones we call Northen IE,
it is dera like door and not Thyra or porta
Albanian keeps the D aspiration of Norhern non Balkanic languages

it is not a south Balkanic language, neither an Illyrian Celtic

 

[Maleth]

Ancient greek is 3500 max old, and Mycenean max 4000 y old,
the E-V13 of Bulgaria might be older than Albanian and Kossovo and Greece, (might = possible) since is crossed with PC2 and not PC4,
you take searches about G2a2 and you claim of E-V13

My inclination is to believe that south (east) Bulgaria would be the epicenter for E-V13. Black sea Deluge had something to do with expansion further into the western and southern Balkans mixing further with J2's and I2's as it moved south and west.

 

[Garrick]

Words which Albanian (Alb.) took from Romanian (Rom.), words have Latin, Dacian, Slavic origin (continue):

çë (Alb); what (Eng.); ce (Rom.); Origin: Latin
daltë; chisel; daltă; Slavic
derdh; to pour out; (derdeluș?) frozen slope; Dacian
detyrë; debt, duty; datorie; Latin
dërmoj; to plummet down, cut in pieces; a dărîma, tear off; Latin
dobis; to win; a dobîndi; Slavic
dojkë; wet-nurse; doică; Slavic
drejtë; straight, right; drept; Latin
dru; tree, wood; druete (archaic); Dacian
edh; he-goat; ied kid; Latin
engjëll; angel; înger; Latin
ergjënd; silver; argint; Latin (argentum)
eshkë; fungus; iască; Dacian, not Latin
fame; fame, reputation; faimă; Latin
faqe; face, cheek; față; Latin
farkë; smithy ; from lat. Fabrica; faur, smith from faber; Latin
fat; friend (not from fatum); făt; Latin
femër; woman; (femeie); Latin
fëmijë; child, family, spouse; femeie; Latin
flakë, pl. Flakëra; flame; flacără; Latin (flamma)
flojere; flute; fluier; Dacian
flok; hair; floc; Latin
flutur; butterfly; future; Dacian
fraq; biting cold; frig; Latin
frashër; ash-tree; frasin; Latin
fre; bridle; frîie; Latin
fruer February făurar Latin
fryt; fruit; frupt; Latin
fshat; village; sat; Latin
fshikë, pshikë; blister; bășică; Latin
ftujë (vëtulë); one year old she-goat; vătui; Dacian
furkë; fork, distaff; furcă distaff, fork; Latin (furca)
fytyrë; face; făptură body; Latin
gamule; heap, mound; măgură; Dacian
gardh; fence; gard; Dacian
gatuaj; make ready, prepare; a găti; Slavic
gavër; hole; gaură; Dacian
gëlbazë; liver, fluke; gălbează; Dacian
gërmadhë; ruin; grămadă heap; Slavic
gilcë; sinew, groin; gîlci; Slavic
glasë; bird’s droppings; găinaț; Latin
gozhup; lambskin, waistcoat; cojoc; Slavic
grabis; to steal, rob; a grăbi (arch. to steal); Slavic
gradinë; garden; grădină; Slavic
grazhd; manger; grajd horse stall; Slavic

(to be continued)

Dacian territories (blue and black) in Europe 125 year AD, Roman Empire

 

[noUseForAname]

Garrick[/B];459449]

Words which Albanian (Alb.) took from Romanian (Rom.), words have Latin, Dacian, Slavic origin (continue):

Why the most scientist place Albanian before Romanian than?


If Albanian derived from Romanian then Scientist would have placed something like this (main branches from oldest to newest)

Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, ROMANIAN, indo-iranian, Balto-slavic, Celtic, Germanic, Italic

 

[noUseForAname]

Ancient greek is 3500 max old, and Mycenean max 4000 y old,

I meant Ancient Greek is 3,500 ybp, however split at least around 5,000 from Anatolian.

Is Mycenean PEI?...i don't see it nowhere in the studies.

 

[Yetos]

I meant Ancient Greek is 3,500 ybp, however split at least around 5,000 from Anatolian.

Is Mycenean PEI?...i don't see it nowhere in the studies.

Ancient Greek is a strange case, but well explained through time due to written,

the oldest Greek known is Mycenean and Homeric (certianly 1500 BC) , Ancient Greek (Doric/Hesiodos) is after both (certainly 900BC),

Mycenean shows more connectivity with latin, than Homeric which is closer with Aryan and Eastern languages,
while more 'true' Greek with all aspirations and vocabulary is the language of Hesiodos which even today it is easier to understand at once by modern Greek than previous 2
for example Mycenean βασιλευς basileus = King from ga-si-reus reus rois reich
Homeric uses aga for ga but king is αναξ (ανακτος) and female ανακις ανακισσα anakissa compare anahitta the queen in Aryan,


in many modern models there is a strong repeat mistake,
see this to understand

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31280-Mismodeling-Indo-European-Origins-The-Assault-On-Historical-Linguistics

 

[Garrick]

Garrick[/B];459449]


Why the most scientist place Albanian before Romanian than?


If Albanian derived from Romanian then Scientist would have placed something like this (main branches from oldest to newest)

Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, ROMANIAN, indo-iranian, Balto-slavic, Celtic, Germanic, Italic

No, I didn't say that Albanian is derived from Romanian.
...

Armenian and Albanian have specifically place in IE structure. Once there were a lot of IE languages in Anatolia and Caucasus but now no.

Sometimes someone give classification of IE languages where Armenian and Albanian are in the same branch.

I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable.

It is interesting question if Armenians and Albanians can be considered as fraternal people. Today, no, because big changes haven take place both Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people.
I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian. Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!

But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion).

When speakers of proto Albanian left Caucasus, where they were all moving until they came to the Southern Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, it is very hard to someone gives answer.

What is about Southern Ukraine/Moldova/Romania?

I have no all answers, of course. Who has?

I gave territories of Roman Empire and beyond in first century. Greco-Egyptian geographer Claudius Ptolemy gave list of twelve Dacian tribes. Of course, there are more tribes. Here one list:

• Albocenses - lived west of the Potulatenses
• Anarti - lived in the north west
• Apuli - lived in central Transylvania with their capital at Apulum (Piatra Craivii)
• Biephi - lived west of the Buridavenses
• Buridavenses - lived in northern Moldavia with their citadel Buridava
• Calipizi - lived between the Dnestr and the Bug rivers
• Carpi - lived east of the Carpathians and west of the Dnestr river. The name of the Carpathian Mountains probably comes from the name of this tribe
• Caucoenses - lived to the east
• Ciagisi - between the Saldenses and Piephigi
• Costoboci - lived in northern and north-eastern Dacia, reaching the territory of modern Ukraine and Moldavia
• Cotenses - live east of the Buridavenses
• Crobobizi and the Trizi - lived in Dobrogea
• Keiasigi - lived in Transylvania
• Piephigi - lived in Moldavia and eastern Muntenia
• Potulatenses - between the Albocenses and Sienses
• Predavenses - lived in the west
• Ratacenses - between the Predavenses and the Caucoenses
• Saldenses - lived in the Banat and Crisana
• Sienses - lived east of the Potulatenses
• Suci - lived in Oltenia with their citadel Sucidava at the mouth of the river Olt
• Teurisci - lived in the north
• Tyragetae - lived at the mouth of the river Dnestr.

In literature there can be more tribes, but, for now, it is enough.

Could Ptolomy and other Greek and Romanian smart people from that time make difference between languages which tribes used. Somwhere yes, somewhere no. Because in this list there are tribes from different branches, not only Dacian. Languages which were not Greek or Latin were Barbarian languages, no matter if Dacian, Balto-Slavic, Celtic, Iranian, etc.

If any of these tribes is Albanian and not Dacian, what is probability that the Greek and Roman intellectuals noticed this. Very little.
It is possible that any of these (or another not in this list) tribes is Albanian and not Dacian. It is possible that better candidates are tribes from Carpathian part of Romania, Moldavia or Southern Western Ukraine (of course in today’s boundaries).
Some experts considered tribe of Carpi as Albanians. And Costoboci tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about Piephigi tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.

(Speculations: Albanians often have “je”, for. example pjell = give birth; other words can have roots: fe = faith, belief; gjej = find; fe gjej = find belief).

Here only Romanian and Moldavian members of forum can help, nobody second can know better Dacia and neighbor history, then they.

In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.

 

[noUseForAname]

No, I didn't say that Albanian is derived from Romanian.

Ok then it should be the contrary of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.

I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable.
Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people.
Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!

I don't know why you are so fixed about Albanian coming from Caucus, even if it was 5,000 years ago, there is no genetical link nor in language. Albanian is western balkanic branch coming straight from south central Anatolian (as most studies argue)

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic.

<b style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250);"><font color="#333333">

I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian.

Where does it say that speakers of proto Albanians lived more eastern in new New Zeland Study? can you source it please?
The same study concludes that Albanian language is separated straight as a separate branch from Anatolian 5,100 ago (we have already discussed that)

But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion).

The relationships with R1b might be, however not as a majority, because we know that E-V13 is much earlier (check Maciamo neolithic Cultures maps below)

Maciamo argues Dorians with major R1b came to South east areas (albanian and greek speaking regions) from Hallistat Culture around 3,000 ybp.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml

He also argues that...The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia.

The East European R1a-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the 8th century BCE. Although this is at much later time. This only confirms that R1a were the latest new comers at the Greek speaking regions and Albanian speaking regions.

Some experts considered tribe of Carpi as Albanians. And Costoboci tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about Piephigi tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.
In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.

Am not sure were you are finding this pictures (do you have the source?), this are surely not studies but "mythical theories" as you mentioned before.

These are AD periods, are e you aware of Albanians genetically and language were at South east Europe since at least 4,000 ybp?....read the study i posted about IBD were it confirms that Albanians “identical by descent” are at the south east Europe Balkanic since at least 4,000 ybp.

bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that Albanian is the red colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the others at 2550-4335 years ago.


http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

 

[Garrick]

noUseForAname
I told you that model of Lazaridis et al is imperfect/imprecise it is only way to come to better, more robust models.

For example, you can see:

That explains why someone with inside information said Armenians are 30% European H&G. Using modern Bedoins as proxy for ENF is absolut nonsense. They also seem to simply put all UHG ancestry under WHG. Not taking into account that EEF is mostly UHG + Basal Eurasian.

They had no ancient genome from Near East. I wrote more times, we'll know of more ancient European meta-populations as it will be many more studies and many more genomes are sequenced from across Eurasia and Northern Africa.

You sholudn't compare today's populations. Today Armenians and Albanians are not same as people who spoke Proto Armenian and Proto Albanian, they were much more similar. Big changes were for 5,000 years and more. I think that Armenians today and Neolithic Armenians are different! My opinion that South Western Asian component came later in Armenian substratum. And if you see Albanians have relatively strong West Asian ancestry and lesser North European.

And more, it is possible that speakers of Proto Armenian and speakers of Proto Albanians had same haplogroups! (for Y-DNK: R1b ht35 Armenian haplotype and E-V13, maybe in different proportions.

For me, it will be interesting the paper:

BALKAN GENETIC SIGNALS IN THE ARMENIAN PATERNAL GENE POOL

http://www.isabs.hr/registration201...iew&id_program=20&id_topic=53&id_abstract=365

On the whole, our results only partly support the version of Balkan origin of the Armenians, and in contrast to it, mainly indicated Neolithic and post-Neolithic ancient human migrations from the Armenian Highland and the Levant to southern Europe.

...
The area where speakers of Proto Armenian and Proto Albanian lived can be Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia or even Northern Iran. In these areas were a lot of languages IE Anatolia-Caucasus branch, and it seems only Armenian and Albanian survived.

And it is area where speakers of Proto Armenian, Proto Albanian and Proto Northern Iranian languages could be linked.

I know that some words in Albanian could come from standard Persian, in time of Ottomans, but North Iranian languages are specifically and quite far from today's Persian. It would be unbelievable if even today's Albanian has similar some words with North Iranian languages in Caucasus and near that these words came from standard Persian, which has no these words.

...
What is interesting for area of Northern-Eastern Romania, Moldavia and South-Western Ukraine in the Roman Empire time. Wider area was full of tribes of different branches. You can find not only Dacian tribes, but Balto-Slavic, Celtic, German, Iranian etc. Probably it is reason why Albanian could took words from different languages. And it is possible that one or two of tribes for who Greek and Latin considered as Dacian, were Albanian.

Serious researchers linked Albanians with some Dacian tribes. I told you for Carpi and Costoboci. For me Piephigi are interesting too but I didn't find about them and I can say nothing, and any another tribes in that region. In reality some of tribe addressed as Dacian wasn't (or these tribes weren't) Dacian, but Albanian, but Greek and Latin smart people didn't make difference, didn't notice it. What is not surprise, because for them, all languages non Latin or Greek, were Barbarian.

But these researchers mostly are not Albanians and they are not known among Albanians.

...
It is not offense but I must say who was big promoter Albanian - Illyrian connection.

Albanian communist Enver Hoxha.

And for it the reason exists.

Stalin embraced idea of Internationale, trying for global world movement of working class.

Tito embraced idea of brotherhood and unity, trying for all South-Slavic people to be one nation - Yugoslavs.

What Enver Hoxha could embrace?

He abolished religion, he isolated country (cooperating only with China), he held population in submissiveness. He had to have some glue. And he found it, he embraced idea about Balkan antiquity and connection Pelasgians, Illyrians, etc. with Albanians.

Facts were not important, everything was in service of "idea" of Albanian antiquity, morever in such a environment, even Greek history in engineering Enver Hoxa's quasiexperts "became Albanian history, Greek gods became Albanian gods", etc.!?

And after Enver Hoxha, unfortunately, some Albanians, but not all, continued his cliches.

I will give only one example, because it is nonsense:

Why the greeks have stolen the ancient culture of Albanian- Pelasgean people?

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070831022811AAAf3ib#

What someone who is serious can say on this (plus Greeks is written in small letter).

Enlightement or tomfoolery.

...
It is not problem when people come with different ideas. But problem is when propaganda is trying to supress different opinions.

...
There are researches who link any Dacian tribe with Albanians.

For example the Romanian historian Russu has originated the theory that Albanians represent a massive migration of the Carpi.

In Albanian karpë is rock.

Maybe Carpathians means "mountains of the Carpi", there is this opinion.

Costoboci have also been associated with Albanians.

We will see. I gave a list of the tribes. Researchers in next years will come to new knowledge.

 

[noUseForAname]

Garrick[/B];459595]

Can we discuss by multiple quotes please, WORD by words, cause it is getting messy and usually you never answer.

Lets start over again, then i answer your last long text.....FYI no political discussions please (only genetical and linguistics studies)

No, I didn't say that Albanian is derived from Romanian.

Ok then it should be the contrary of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.

I gave one paper but link between Armenian and Albanian is researched from serious scientists before more the 100 years to today, Pederson was one of respectable.
Armenians and Albanians. But in the Bronze age, in time when people speak proto Armenian and proto Albanian, they were closer to each other. Maybe as Baltic and Slavic people.
Probably it is reason why in their model proto Albanian was closer to forerunners of Iranian languages (North Iranian). It would be interesting to research if there are similar words between today’s Albanian and Caucasus North Iranian languages, because probability exists!

I don't know why you are so fixed about Albanian coming from Caucus, even if it was 5,000 years ago, there is no genetical link nor in language. Albanian is western balkanic branch coming straight from south central Anatolian (as most studies argue)

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic.

<strong><strong>

I suppose, according to model of New Zealand scientists, speakers of proto Albanian lived more Eastern in Caucasus than speakers of proto Armenian.

Where does it say that speakers of proto Albanians lived more eastern in new New Zeland Study? can you source it please?
The same study concludes that Albanian language is separated straight as a separate branch from Anatolian 5,100 ago (we have already discussed that)

But speakers of proto Armenian and proto Albanian had similarity by origin and haplogroups (R1b ht35, E-V13; difference is in proportion).

the relationships with R1b might be, however not as a majority, because we know that E-V13 is much earlier (check Maciamo neolithic Cultures maps below)

Maciamo argues Dorians with major R1b came to South east areas (albanian and greek speaking regions) from Hallistat Culture around 3,000 ybp.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml
He also argues that...The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia.

The East European R1a-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the 8th century BCE. Although this is at much later time. This only confirms that R1a were the latest new comers at the Greek speaking regions and Albanian speaking regions.

Some experts considered tribe of Carpi as Albanians. And Costoboci tribe, too. Maybe another tribe comes to mind. For example I tried to find something about Piephigi tribe, but I find nothing, and for more tribes didn’t find data.
In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.

Am not sure were you are finding this pictures (do you have the source?), this are surely not studies but "mythical theories" as you mentioned before.

These are AD periods, are e you aware of Albanians genetically and language were at South east Europe since at least 4,000 ybp?....
How can they migrate from AD times from north especially Carpatians Current Moldova and far north Romania?

read the study i posted about IBD were it confirms that Albanians “identical by descent” are at the south east Europe Balkanic since at least 4,000 ybp.

bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that Albanian is the red colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the other neighbours at 2550-4335 years ago.


http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

 

[Garrick]

Ok then it should be the contrary of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.

Ok then it should be the contrary of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.

Please, do you believe in this really? You think that Romanians (Dacians) borrowed words from Albanians?!

Smaller nation can give the language to bigger nation if members of smaller nations are rulers. But I don’t know that Albanians ruled Dacia.

Ancestors of Albanians lived in “Dacian sea”. Can someone think that Dacians who dominated in big area took words from ancestors of Albanians who had one or several tribes, were much smaller numerous and lived somewhere in isolated areas, in mountains.

No, it is not possible.

It would be good that Romanian members of forum comment this.

There are “sea of words” in Albanian which borrowed from Romanian, this is third part:

grebash (Alb.), rake (Eng.), greblă (Rom.), Origin: Slavic
grope, hole, grave, groapă, Slavic
grunë, wheat, grîne wheat, Latin
gurmaz, gullet, grumaz, Dacian
gushë, crop, not throat, gușă, Dacian
gjelbën, green, galben yellow, Latin
gjobë, fine, penalty, gloabă, Slavic
harabel, sparrow, vrabie, Slavic
harmëshor, stallion, stud, armăsar, Latin
hirrë /*ksira, whey, zer Dacian
iriq, hedgehog, arici, Latin
kaçule, hood, căciulă, Dacian
kade, barrel, cadă, Latin
kale, horse, cal, Latin
kalibe, hut, colibă, Greek or Dacian or Wanderwort
kangjel, song, cîntec, cîntecel, Latin
kapruall, roebuck căprior, căprioară, Latin
karrabisht, earwig, cărăbuș, bug, Latin or Greek
kastravet, cucumber, castravete, Slavic
katund, village (old Wanderwort) Mongol, Ainu qotan, cătun, Dacian or Wanderwort
kelbazë, spleen inflammation, liver fluke, gălbează, Dacian
këmishë, shirt, cămașă, Latin
këndoj, to sing, a cînta, Latin
këngë, song, cîntec, Latin
këputë, sole, căpută, Latin
këpurdhë, mushroom, ciupercă, Dacian
këpushë, tick, căpușă, Dacian
kërkoj, to seek, to look for, a cerca, Latin
kobë, bad augury, cobe, Dacian
kofshë, hip, thigh coxa, coapsă, Latin
kom, mane, coamă, Latin
kopil, bastard, copil, unknown
korb, raven, corb, Latin
kosë, scythe, coasă, Slavic
kosë, plait, cosiță, Slavic
kosis, to mow, a cosi, Slavic
kosore, small, scythe, cosor pruning knife, Slavic
kosh, basket, coș, Slavic
kreshmë, Lent Quadragesima, păresimi, Latin
krënd, foliage, brushwood, leaves, creangă, crîng, Dacian

(to be continued)

 

[Angela]

Garrick, I'm really not getting the point of your constant attempt to connect Albanian to Armenian. Both languages, and also the Balto-Slavic languages and a host of others, are "Indo-European". I'm sure you agree with that. Most linguists believe that these languages expanded from the Pontic Caspian steppe. Do you agree with that? OK, assuming that you do, this is a graphic for the presumed dispersal of the people and languages.

The dotted line is for the Anatolian languages (Hittite etc, not Armenian). Some scholars posit that Anatolian also moved into Anatolia from the Balkans.

Whichever version you choose, Armenian still moves from the Balkans to Anatolia, not the other way around.


Now, if you want to go with Grey and Atkinson, who have been excoriated by linguists, this is the spread.

Even with this model, it seems to me that Albanian was in the Balkans before Slavic. In fact, to me it seems that perhaps the Slavic speakers mostly went down the middle of the Balkans, separating Romanians/Bulgarians from Albanians. I don't know how likely it is that instead Albanians later moved from the east to the west of the Balkans. Regardless, I think it's extremely likely that Slavic was the last language to appear in the Balkans.

Maybe if Taranis is around, he could correct me if I've gone wrong. He has a wealth of knowledge about linguistics.

 

[Sile]

Garrick[/B];459595]

Can we discuss by multiple quotes please, WORD by words, cause it is getting messy and usually you never answer.

Lets start over again, then i answer your last long text.....FYI no political discussions please (only genetical and linguistics studies)




Ok then it should be the contrary of those word similarities you have posted, it's Romanian who borrowed from Albanian not the way around because Albanian according to the scientist is much older, thousands of years difference.




I don't know why you are so fixed about Albanian coming from Caucus, even if it was 5,000 years ago, there is no genetical link nor in language. Albanian is western balkanic branch coming straight from south central Anatolian (as most studies argue)

The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic.

<strong><strong>

Where does it say that speakers of proto Albanians lived more eastern in new New Zeland Study? can you source it please?
The same study concludes that Albanian language is separated straight as a separate branch from Anatolian 5,100 ago (we have already discussed that)




the relationships with R1b might be, however not as a majority, because we know that E-V13 is much earlier (check Maciamo neolithic Cultures maps below)

Maciamo argues Dorians with major R1b came to South east areas (albanian and greek speaking regions) from Hallistat Culture around 3,000 ybp.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml
He also argues that...The most likely scenario is that the ancient Armenians originated in the southern Balkans in the Bronze Age, as a L32 offshoot of R1b, then migrated across Anatolia. The language was later satemised due to the long influence of Indo-Iranian languages, for example during the Mitanni period (c. 1500-1200 BCE) and during the Achaemenid Empire (550–330 BCE) when the region was part of the Satrapy of Armenia (the first historical state to be called 'Armenia'), when R1a-Z93 was introduced to Armenia.

The East European R1a-Z282 was probably brought by the Cimmerians, who are recorded to have settled around Lake Van in the Armenian Highland in the 8th century BCE. Although this is at much later time. This only confirms that R1a were the latest new comers at the Greek speaking regions and Albanian speaking regions.




Am not sure were you are finding this pictures (do you have the source?), this are surely not studies but "mythical theories" as you mentioned before.

These are AD periods, are e you aware of Albanians genetically and language were at South east Europe since at least 4,000 ybp?....
How can they migrate from AD times from north especially Carpatians Current Moldova and far north Romania?

read the study i posted about IBD were it confirms that Albanians “identical by descent” are at the south east Europe Balkanic since at least 4,000 ybp.

bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that Albanian is the red colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the other neighbours at 2550-4335 years ago.


http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555

is this why gheg and tosk differ ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jireček_Line

 

[Garrick]

Garrick, I'm really not getting the point of your constant attempt to connect Albanian to Armenian. Both languages, and also the Balto-Slavic languages and a host of others, are "Indo-European". I'm sure you agree with that. Most linguists believe that these languages expanded from the Pontic Caspian steppe. Do you agree with that? OK, assuming that you do, this is a graphic for the presumed dispersal of the people and languages.
The dotted line is for the Anatolian languages (Hittite etc, not Armenian). Some scholars posit that Anatolian also moved into Anatolia from the Balkans.
Whichever version you choose, Armenian still moves from the Balkans to Anatolia, not the other way around.

Yes, Angela, I know it. But, what it is interesting, Armenians mostly refuse such opinions. They think that earliest record for which someone can say it has Armenian component is Armenic-Summer inscription from about 2.700 year BC. Next early record is from 2.300 year BC in Diabekr region linked with Akkadians.

Armenians think that inhabitants of kingdom of Mitanni are the ancestors of the modern day Armenians:

https://narinnamkn.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/armenian-kingdom-of-mitanni-one-house-in-armenian/



Therefore this scientific study is important:

http://www.isabs.hr/registration201...iew&id_program=20&id_topic=53&id_abstract=365

And in Abstract authors write "in contrast to it, mainly indicated Neolithic and post-Neolithic ancient human migrations from the Armenian Highland and the Levant to southern Europe".

Look at this:

Ancient Armenians: R1b and E1b!

Armenians have R1b ht35, Armenian haplotype. Is E1b = E-V13?

I supposed this result when I linked IE proto languages in Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and beyond, and it is confirmation of said above.

Plus Ancient Armenians had no South West Asian genes!. We have Armenians in Bronze age vs Armenians today. South West Asian genes came later.

It is obvious that for Armenians there are many unknowns but new researches can say more than before.
...

Even with this model, it seems to me that Albanian was in the Balkans before Slavic. In fact, to me it seems that perhaps the Slavic speakers mostly went down the middle of the Balkans, separating Romanians/Bulgarians from Albanians. I don't know how likely it is that instead Albanians later moved from the east to the west of the Balkans. Regardless, I think it's extremely likely that Slavic was the last language to appear in the Balkans.

Maybe if Taranis is around, he could correct me if I've gone wrong. He has a wealth of knowledge about linguistics.

My intention wasn't that compare the time of coming one or other languages. For me it does not matter. Honestly, few people know about beginnings of Slavic languages.

This is map of Europe in 3rd century. Nobody can see Slavs here.

But for 150-200 years half of Europe speak Slavic. I don't know how it is possible.
...

Slavic languages are not the thread here and I had not paid attention.

But what it is important what I put. It is very high dependence Albanian language from Romanian. Albanian linguists know it but they don't write, and of course, other experts write. I gave a lot of words which Albanian borrowed from Romanian. But these words have many many more, maybe thousands.

It cannot be accidentally. In one longer periods Albanians lived with Romanians (Dacians) and they borrowed their words. Albanians didn't rule in Dacia that Dacians (Romanians) take Albanian words. When Albanians moved from North-East to South-West of Balkans, there aren't records, but I gave sources which tell about 5-10 century.

It is impossible that Albanians have a lot of Romanians words if they lived in today's areas. Who cannot understand that Albanians in longer period of time lived in the territory of today Romania (in this time Dacia) he or she cannot understand movements.

We should here to speak about Pelasgians, but evidence for link between Pelasgians and Albanians don't exist. Evidence for link between Illyrians and Albanians don't exist. No one Greek or Roman source mentions Albanian. First source in the Albanian language (as spoken in the region around Mat) was recorded in 1462 by Paulus Angelius (whose name was later Albanized to Pal Engjëll), the archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Durazzo (modern Durres).

But what exists there are hard facts about link Romanian and Albanian, and words which Albanian borrowed from Romanian.

All what need is to find which tribe (or tribes) in Dacia were not Dacian but Albanian. I gave list of Dacian tribes.

Romanian scientist Russu gave theory that Carpi tribe migrated from Carpathian mountains and near to Albania. This migration was from the 5th century. Migration was due Hunnic invasion.

It is not new. Romanian philologist Hasdeu studied that Albanians are descedants of Costoboci. Costoboci and Carpi lived in neighborhood, Costoboci were more Eastern (territory todays Ukraine, Moldavia, Romania). It is interesting scientists are not sure if Costoboci were Dacian, or Sarmatian, or what.

We have no records about some other Dacian tribes. I trying to find data for Piefigi tribe but I didn't find. We will see new findings. Romanian and other scientists will continue researches.