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Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    guys plz stop
    You are right 100%, I am trying to stop.

    We here waste time, because connection between Albanians comparing to Pelasgians doesn't exist, how member who set this thread tried to suggest in introduction.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Do not put words that I did not say. I didn't blame Croatia or any other Yugoslav nation. SFR Yugoslavia was respectable country. I'm Tito's fan, I appreciate Yugoslav nations. Croatia is very beautiful country and I wrote about beauty of Istria, of course I will write about other parts of Croatia, I toured the whole country, including some islands. Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, have similar genetics, and the language is practically same, we understand each other.

    How can you say than Serbian State (not all population) was for the brotherhood in SFR when you saw above all those high level Serb state officials sentenced by International Hague Tribunal?

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    0% relevant information about topic.
    Close this thread at once.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    No need to close. Just stop indoctrinated Albanians post in E-V13 threads, and that's good enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    No offense,the above post was not addressed to you.As far as I know,you are a European.
    I don't hate Serbs,on the contrary,you misunderstood me.
    Serbs are Europeans, they fought for European interests over the centuries

    According to Eupedia haplogroup I, Old European, in Serbia is 42%, according some studies even 48%.

    Serbs and Romanians are close people, genetic similarities are significant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    You are completely wrong. You don't know about socialist Yugoslavia. It was state of six republics. Serbs didn't have hegemony, president was not Serb, and all institutions were in favor of idea brotherhood and unity of Yugoslav nations. Serbian nationalists say that Yugoslavia was a dungeon of Serbian people. Yes, and Croatian nationalists didn't love SFR Yugoslavia, and other. But Yugoslav communists fought with nationalistic aspirations with a lot of success.

    FYI, i didn't start this (cause its of the topic), i told you before no political discussion PLEASE when you said Slobodan Miloshevic has E-V13 etc....but you started with your later funny propaganda. (at least if you put international transparent sources it would be ok)

    Ok so i guess you don't have an answer, cause you don't need to, international war crimes tribunal already sentenced all the key figures of Serbian state. At least you should deny and note that everything what happened after 1985 in Yugoslavia was definitely not an approach to brotherhood by an Serbian State official (not saying about the population).

    And we agreed not to place sources of say (only of you country or neighbours) but rather international because they are usually more transparent and we learn more this way.....about the turkish defter 1445 and bosnian/Serbian i have an answer....next post...

    and for The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia, i don't even want to go through cause it's pure only serbian and serbian sources....

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Turkish defter of Brankovics land

    95.88% of all names were of Serbian origin,
    1.90% of Roman origin, (Vlachs or Aromanians)
    1.56% of uncertain origin,
    0.26% of Albanian origin,
    0.25% of Greek origin, etc.

    The mostly names in defter are:
    Radislav (male name)1.478
    Bogdan (male name) 1.209 and
    Radica (female name) 1.204.
    But everyone who knows Serbian or Slavic names for him or her it is clear that they are Serbs.

    • 13,693 adult Serb males,

    Although the source is Serb and Bosnian source in SFR period, i will represent you how you have completely misrepresented the source yet again (apart from the other one when said Albanian language came from Beluchi indic/Iranian)


    You can see from the map below the approximate current Kosovo borders, and as seen that other parts were taken into account (south east Serbia, south west Serbia, South central Serbia, North Montenegro), we can say its very close to all Kosovo Vilajet 1400 (excluding the Bulgarian part/inhabitants in south easter part of the map)


    map brankovic.jpg
    (red circles major cities), far western part (close to Albania left uncounted)


    13,600 males in overall 480 villages
    13,600 males (you can see all the peoples names are typical Serbian up to 98%) — Therefore it only represents ethnic serb demography (not others ethnicities)

    you can see Balaban, Banja etc villages - 4 people only each (on whole Village) (all Serbian only)
    278-810ad48977.jpg


    lets say we double up males females, 27,000 Serbs overall

    you claim total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000?,

    This means for every village only 56 inhabitants?….is that even possible?…its as for an average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village?


    Lets say a village would have at least 900 people (male female) - 180 houses (5 average)
    We have overall 432,000 inhabitants (excluding Bulgarians see map in black lines)

    373,000 Albanians
    27,000 Serbs
    32,000 others, Bulgarians, turks vallachen, greeks.


    This is actually consistent with the Danish source of Kosovo Vilajet Population
    very close to the below (they even gave more % of Serbs)

    Vilajet Kossowo:

    418.000 Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
    9.000 Mahomedaansche Turken
    14.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
    250.000 Christene Bulgaren
    113.000 Orthodoxe Serviërs
    900 Orthodoxe Wallachen
    200 Orthodoxe Grieken
    22.000 Gemengd


    KaartGodsdBalkan.jpg



    The data (you have given) consist of only one ethnic background (serbian), (and this is why it would make pretty much sense)


    Therefore it does not represent all other ethnic populations: as Albanian Bulgarian Serbian Greek Romanian etc....




    https://www.scribd.com/doc/98035320/...Iz-1455-Godine
    http://users.skynet.be/ovo/GodsdBalkan.html
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    and for The Dečani chrysobulls from 1321-1331 by Stephen Uroš III Dečanski of Serbia, i don't even want to go through cause it's pure only serbian and serbian sources....
    What did you expect? Albanian or British sources of 14th century Kosovo?

    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post

    This is actually consistent with the Danish source of Kosovo Vilajet Population
    very close to the below (they even gave more % of Serbs)

    Vilajet Kossowo:

    418.000 Mahomedaansche Albaneezen
    9.000 Mahomedaansche Turken
    14.000 Mahomedaansche Bulgaren
    250.000 Christene Bulgaren
    113.000 Orthodoxe Serviërs
    900 Orthodoxe Wallachen
    200 Orthodoxe Grieken
    22.000 Gemengd
    Yes, this is correct, but this is 1912. which is 600 years later.






    Now let me ask you another thing. According to Danish chart there was total of 827.000 inhabitants in 1912. of which:

    Albanians - 418.000 (51%)
    Others - 409.000 (49%)


    Today we have (http://www.beinkosovo.com/en/kosovo-population):

    Albanians - 88%
    Others - 12 %


    What did you do with all the Christene Bulgaren, Orthodoxe Servies and others? Why did we have 53% Muslims just 100 years ago, and now we have 90% of them? What are the magic conditions in which number of Albanians had risen from 418.000 to approximately 1.800.000 in a hundred of years? And please open a separate thread if you intend to reply, because this has absolutely nothing to do with Ancient Balkan population.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    noUseForAname

    You're trying to confuse readers, you putting data from 1912, Kosovo and Metohija: 51% Albanians (1% more than 1/2).

    Can you compute time difference between 1455 (and earlier) and 1912.

    In Middle time there are no Albanians in the Kosovo and Metohija, it is Serbian land.

    Due to terrible retribution made by Turks and Muslim Balkan allies Serbs had to leave their lands, small numbers of Serbs converted to Islam.

    Albanians in greater numbers began to settle in Kosovo and Metohija in 17th century, it is history and Albanian historians know it.

    You can't stop disscussion about things which that has nothing to do with the thread.

    And the reason is because new scientific findings are not what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    E-V13 is spread all over Europe
    little is known how and when this happened
    there are no deep subclades of E-V13 known
    the best I could find is here : http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/
    3 subclades are listed here each with a different expansion time : 4300, 3800 and 1850 years ago
    because these subclades are very shallow, the expansion time of E-V13 is estimated at only 4300 years ago
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture. As for the Near Eastern haplogroups, it has since transpired that G2a was the main lineage of Near Eastern Neolithic farmers. But I am still convinced that E1b1b, J1 and T1a were also present among Neolithic farmers.

    The only thing that changed in my views is that I now believe that E-M78, and more specifically E-V13, arrived in Mediterranean Europe in the late glacial period or during the Mesolithic, crossing directly from North Africa. That implies that E-M78 was found in Neolithic Europe, but as assimilated hunter-gatherers like haplogroups C1a2, F and I. The reason that E1b1b was only found in Neolithic Spain so far is that it was really confined to Mediterranean Europe at least until the Bell Beaker expansion from Iberia to western Europe. E-V13 would have expanded from Italy and Greece to the Balkans only during the Copper or Early Bronze Age, perhaps after a few lineages were assimilated by the Indo-European invaders. Therefore I doubt that E-V13 was already present in Romania, Moldova and Ukraine during the Neolithic period.

    As for R1a and R1b, this is more difficult. There surely could be some of them in the eastern Cucuteni-Tripillian, especially in the later phase when they started advancing into the Pontic steppe, due to the proximity and possible intermingling with Yamna people. But I seriously doubt that they would more than occasional trace lineages. The way I see it is that the Corded Ware expansion, which started in the northern forest-steppe zone of the Yamna horizon, absorbed the remnant of the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture. So as soon as R1a and R1b Corded Ware people moved en masse to western Ukraine, the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture collapsed.


    One possible alternative scenario is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture was really an almost purely R1a or R1b culture. This is very unlikely based on archaeological evidence, but we could imagine two possible scenarios in which the Cucuteni-Tripillian is one of the cradles of Proto-Indo-European people :

    1) In the first one, Cucuteni-Tripillians are essentially R1a people who adopted agriculture upon contact with the Balkanic G2a neighbours. When they moved into the steppe from 3500 BCE, they encountered R1b Yamna people and the merger created the Corded Ware.

    2) The Cucuteni-Tripillians were actually R1b-L51 people related to Yamna R1b-Z2103 people. In this most unlikely scenario, the Proto-Italo-Celtic and Proto-Germanic speakers descend from the Cucuteni-Tripillian instead of the Yamna people, while Yamna spawned only the Greek, Albanian, Armenia, Anatolian and Tocharians branches of IE languages.



    In conclusion, I think that the most likely possibility is that the Cucuteni-Tripillian culture will be predominantly I2 (over 50% of the lineages, and probably lots of I2a1b-M423 among them), followed by G2a (20-30%), while other haplogroups (C1a2, F, I*, I1, J1, T1a) fill up what's left.

    If Maciamo and Bicicleur are right E-V13 carriers arrived in Europe from North Africa (Berber land) via Gibraltar. They came to the Balkans very late.

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    If Maciamo and Bicicleur are right E-V13 carriers arrived in Europe from North Africa (Berber land) via Gibraltar. They came to the Balkans very late.
    So far I only read Maciamo with this theory :). After scanning the internet I did not find it anywhere else. Of course everything is possible and never say never, but its obvious that the mainstream understanding at present is the below. If you do find reliable sources to state something different I will appreciate to pass on link or post. Many thanks.



    However, in 2010, researchers have studied the genetic diversity of modern populations to throw light on the processes involved in these ancient events. The new study, funded by the Wellcome Trust, examines the diversity of the Y chromosome. Mark Jobling, who led the research, said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosome lineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows a gradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100% frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed, how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is." The results suggested that the lineageR1b1b2 (R-M269), like E1b1b or J lineages, spread together with farming from the Near East. Priorarchaeological[23][24][25][26][27][28] and metrological[29][30] studies had arrived at similar conclusions in support of the migrationist model.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    So far I only read Maciamo with this theory :). After scanning the internet I did not find it anywhere else. Of course everything is possible and never say never, but its obvious that the mainstream understanding at present is the below. If you do find reliable sources to state something different I will appreciate to pass on link or post. Many thanks.



    However, in 2010, researchers have studied the genetic diversity of modern populations to throw light on the processes involved in these ancient events. The new study, funded by the Wellcome Trust, examines the diversity of the Y chromosome. Mark Jobling, who led the research, said: "We focused on the commonest Y-chromosome lineage in Europe, carried by about 110 million men, it follows a gradient from south-east to north-west, reaching almost 100% frequency in Ireland. We looked at how the lineage is distributed, how diverse it is in different parts of Europe, and how old it is." The results suggested that the lineageR1b1b2 (R-M269), like E1b1b or J lineages, spread together with farming from the Near East. Priorarchaeological[23][24][25][26][27][28] and metrological[29][30] studies had arrived at similar conclusions in support of the migrationist model.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe

    Maleth, I am only trying to get back to the thread. You can see pages and pages nothing to do with thread. I hope we have materials to discuss about thread now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Maleth, I am only trying to get back to the thread. You can see pages and pages nothing to do with thread. I hope we have materials to discuss about thread now.
    The original title of the thread has been worn out and exhausted over and over again, and nothing new is coming out. Just repetitions. I think Yetos explained it good. All there is left now the usual arguments that we have been hearing ad naseum Albania vs Serbia. Its just going round in circles. But I feel you are both having lots of fun and enjoying it. Apparently looking into old posts, its not even a recent thing but an ongoing venture. Im happy for you both. I would still would be interested in papers with links and posts in regards to Maciamos theory that E-V13 migrated from North Africa. I would highly appreciate it as Im quite interested in the subject, but I cannot locate the North African crossing to the Balkans anywhere.

    you can reply here http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

    Many thanks :)

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    In 1854, an Austrian diplomat and Albanian language specialist, Johann Georg von Hahn, identified the Pelasgian language with Ur-Albanian. This theory has been rejected by modern scholars but is still supported by some Albanian nationalists.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    . All there is left now the usual arguments that we have been hearing ad naseum Albania vs Serbia.
    This has nothing to do with Albania vs. Serbia, but it is indoctrinated Albanians against history and common sense. It is a shame that more other nationalities don't stand against them. It seems like most of the people just don't care about it, and maybe even Serbians wouldn't pay much attention if it wasn't about Kosovo for which they have strong cultural and historical relations.

    I can't guess instead of Serbians, but if it was about some other part of Serbia, they probably wouldn't be bothered as much, and cultural propaganda of Albanians would prevail the facts. In order to manipulate these facts more, they are polluting all the history threads since the beginning of internet. They have no written records older then ~100 years, they had no schools, history books, absolutely nothing at all, but they claim nonsense all over internet. If they are so convinced in that story, why are they too lazy to grab a shovel and dig some evidence? Is it so hard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Now let me ask you another thing. According to Danish chart there was total of 827.000 inhabitants in 1912. of which:
    Albanians - 418.000 (51%)
    Others - 409.000 (49%)
    Today we have

    Albanians - 88%
    Others - 12 %

    Today Kosovo borders are at least 3 times smaller than Kosovo Vilajet, have a closer look....

    ks.jpg



    12.jpg


    You can see Bulgarians are at the south east of Kosovo Vilajet thats why they have 250,000, and Serbs 113,000 probably at the north side of Montenegro (see the map)
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post

    You're trying to confuse readers, you putting data from 1912, Kosovo and Metohija: 51% Albanians (1% more than 1/2).
    Can you compute time difference between 1455 (and earlier) and 1912.
    In Middle time there are no Albanians in the Kosovo and Metohija, it is Serbian land.

    There is only one Question:


    You claim
    total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000?

    This means for every village only 56 inhabitants?….is that even possible?…its as for an average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village?

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    You didn't read well. It says ~13.500 adult males, That gives ~27.000 with females. That gives probably ~100.000 with children.


    Considering Vilayet, you were right, the borders are different. But the situation is even worse. Austrains claim that in 1899. there was ~180.000 Albanians on Kosovo, and we know that 100 years later there was ~1.800.000. That's like 10x in a 100 years :)

    P.S. Mods should transport these last 3 pages into a new thread - "Kosovo ethnic composition AD", starting selective somewhere around #363.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    You didn't read well. It says ~13.500 adult males, That gives ~27.000 with females. That gives probably ~100.000 with children.

    Nope, have a closer look, the study includes Sons and Fathers too (all males).

    Stepan. Sin Branislava - "Sin" in serbian means "Son" in English
    Durad, sin Hrle....etc


    278-810ad48977.jpg



    So in the Village Maqar: Total 4 males: Sin "son" Branislav, Sin "son" Hrle - And Stepan, Durad.


    You think 4 inhabitants include the whole Village?...and Concluding from all 480 Villages Serbs are 98%?


    It is a total misrepresentation of the study, the study was de facto based on representing ONLY one ethnic background (Serbs)



    Hopefully this clears up you understanding....

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    noUseForAname

    In 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th century there are no Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. For period after Battle of Kosovo and Turkish historians know it, there are data in Istanbul. For change the situation in Kosovo and Metohija Albanians are grateful to the Turks. Therefore when Turkish president Erdogan says in Kosovo in front of Albanians "Kosovo is Turkey" he receives ovation and applause from Albanians:



    ...

    But, back to the topic. You can see that subclades of E-V13 are relatively young, formed 4400, 3800 and younger. And you can see that here in forum is total confusion, someone speaks about path via Gibraltar, others speaks about Lybia as place of origin and sea path to Sicily or near, thirds speaks about Near East and path via Anatolia or Caucasus, etc.

    Now, it is almost surely, Vinca culture was not created by E-V13 carriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    noUseForAname

    In 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th century there are no Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. For period after Battle of Kosovo and Turkish historians know it,

    Turkish Defter you have sourced 1445


    You claim total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000

    For every village 56 inhabitants…..average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village


    ANY THOUGHTS....?



    The map and villages are pretty large, considering the current Kosovo and South west/east Serbia.


    map brankovic.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Turkish Defter you have sourced 1445


    You claim total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000

    For every village 56 inhabitants…..average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village


    ANY THOUGHTS....?

    Again, you're confused.

    All is clear, Turks numbered only heads of households. It was a matter for tax to them.

    In this defter is 14,087 household heads, 13,607 adult males household heads and 480 widows.

    Turks wrote son of somebody because identification. For example: Ranko son of Miroslav is household head. He may have a lot of household members, in that time families were big.

    Here is the one village (household heads):

    Village Ahovac

    Ranko son of Miroslav
    Radenko son of Radislav
    Radislav
    Djuradj brother of Ranko
    Vlkota son of Radislav
    Pribil son of Miroslav
    Dobracin son of Radenko
    Bozic son of Nikola
    Jovan son of Pribilo
    Nejak
    Belosava widow

    Houses 10, widows 1
    Income: 986 (akches)

    You can see, they numbered 10 household heads in this village (no 10 inhabitants of village). The number of inhabitants is much bigger, but to the Turks for tax was important household head.

    Also, you can see here Serbian names. 95.88% of all names in the whole defter are Serbian.

    Result this defter is:


    • 13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
    • 75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
    • 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
    • 17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
    • 5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
    • 1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
    • 1 Croat dwelling.


    ...
    Of course, good question is how many people could be under one household head. It depends if there were one-family household or something else. It is middle age, not today's situation.

    Looking the history books, family in Serbia had 6-10 members. If someone counts children and older people, all members, it could be more for one-family household. But it was much more in cooperatives (more-family household) which are comprised relatives greater or lesser degree of closeness. Therefore it is not easy to determine multiplier with which to multiply 14,087.

    ...
    That Serbs converted to Islam after Kosovo battle today Serbs would have over 95% of Kosovo and Metohija population. Probably a large part of Balkan would be Serbian and there would no division between Serbs and Bosniacs. But Serbs have chosen much more harder way. They remained Christians no matter how difficult it was under rule of Muslim invaders. Not only Serbs, and Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Romanians chose this difficult path preserving Christian faith.

    But Albanians relatively quickly massively converted to Islam becoming spearhead of Turkish rule in the Balkans. Many Muslim leaders, aghas, pashas, beys etc. who Balkans Christians and Atheists remembered because they brought them suffering, were ethnic Albanians, not Turks.
    ...

    And it can be political, but only one short question, what do you think which nation is in the top by giving people to ISIS (relative to population).
    ...

    Again, we should discuss about E-V13 and Pelasgians.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Nope, have a closer look, the study includes Sons and Fathers too (all males).

    Stepan. Sin Branislava - "Sin" in serbian means "Son" in English
    Durad, sin Hrle....etc


    278-810ad48977.jpg



    So in the Village Maqar: Total 4 males: Sin "son" Branislav, Sin "son" Hrle - And Stepan, Durad.


    You think 4 inhabitants include the whole Village?...and Concluding from all 480 Villages Serbs are 98%?
    Once again, you don't read well. I don't know what have you attached up there, but this is census of 1455:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_d...vi%C4%87_lands


    It is a total misrepresentation of the study, the study was de facto based on representing ONLY one ethnic background (Serbs)
    Hopefully this clears up you understanding....
    It clears up that you are misinterpreting the study. WHY THE HELL??? What's your problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post

    But, back to the topic.
    Its impossible to get back to the topic as the topic has hardly been discussed. What have we learned about the Palasgians? Now its more Albania vs Serbia type of debate rather the origins of the Palsgians.


    You can see that subclades of E-V13 are relatively young, formed 4400, 3800 and younger.
    Even if what you state is set in stone which is not, 4400 is pre Ottoman rule, pre creation of Kosovo or the existence of Albania or Serbia, so what this ancient age (anyway) has to do with kosovo being Turkish when there was no such thing 4400 ybp?

    And you can see that here in forum is total confusion, someone speaks about path via Gibraltar, others speaks about Lybia as place of origin and sea path to Sicily or near, thirds speaks about Near East and path via Anatolia or Caucasus, etc.
    There is really no confusion its very simple. Maciamo (civilly and no doubt with good intention) proposed a theory that E-V13 crossed directly from North Africa even proposed Libya (unfortunately without much scientific evidence and against the odds in current populations and ancient history) while in the scientific community there is (at present as things can change with new data) a general consensus as expressed in many papers that E-V13 was mutated in the Near east or Balkans proper. Should you be interested in participating in the origins of E-V13 this would be an appropriate thread. Your contributions will be appreciated. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate

    Now, it is almost surely, Vinca culture was not created by E-V13 carriers.
    Was E-V13 really connected at some point to Vinca culture? I must have missed some threads. Do we have any studies from ancient burial sites? that would really be interesting. I would be happy if we share links of new findings were possible. i believe Vinca cultrue spread on a very large geographical area and could easily have a mixture of haplogroups and not just one particular haplogroup.

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    Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post

    Even if what you state is set in stone which is not, 4400 is pre Ottoman rule, pre creation of Kosovo or the existence of Albania or Serbia, so what this ancient age (anyway) has to do with kosovo being Turkish when there was no such thing 4400 ybp?
    We don't know where E-V13 was 4,400 years ago, we have no samples E-V13 in ancient times, in the Balkans and Europe. Nobody mentioned Turks in period before 4,400 years. About debate with noUserforAname, it has no link with the thread. I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.

    I gave the source about E-V13. We can see three subclades and they are relatively young:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post

    There is really no confusion its very simple. Maciamo (civilly and no doubt with good intention) proposed a theory that E-V13 crossed directly from North Africa even proposed Libya (unfortunately without much scientific evidence and against the odds in current populations and ancient history) while in the scientific community there is (at present as things can change with new data) a general consensus as expressed in many papers that E-V13 was mutated in the Near east or Balkans proper. Should you be interested in participating in the origins of E-V13 this would be an appropriate thread. Your contributions will be appreciated. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-V13-originate
    I was very precise, yes in this forum is confusion. If you want to set what members of forum wrote about E-V13, someone who is not in the forum would be in confusion. I think it is consequence because we have no enough knowledge about expansion of this haplogroup. I told you, it is possible that I'm carrier of this haplogroup. I'm "multinational", I have origin from three nations. And scientists write different about this haplogroup. You can see different times in different scientific paper. Scientists often speaks of post neolithic expansion haplogroup of E-V13 in Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post

    Was E-V13 really connected at some point to Vinca culture? I must have missed some threads. Do we have any studies from ancient burial sites? that would really be interesting. I would be happy if we share links of new findings were possible. i believe Vinca cultrue spread on a very large geographical area and could easily have a mixture of haplogroups and not just one particular haplogroup.
    We have:

    NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
    K8 NG21-10
    ANE 0
    South_Eurasian 0
    ENF 41.1
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 58.9
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0
    Sub-Saharan 0

    It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today. If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.
    Oh jolly thanks

    I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.
    18 Pages and hardly anything about Palasgians can be painful.

    We have:

    NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
    K8 NG21-10
    ANE 0
    South_Eurasian 0
    ENF 41.1
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 58.9
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0
    Sub-Saharan 0
    much much more sampling is needed. It does not surprise me at all if I haplo's is part of it or even maybe main Haplogroup considering the age. Other classical civilizations would have been created later to the south and the Northern migrations came later too. Much much more work is needed tho but Vinca would be an interesting story.

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