Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 19 of 20 FirstFirst ... 917181920 LastLast
Results 451 to 475 of 494

Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

  1. #451
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Its impossible to get back to the topic as the topic has hardly been discussed. What have we learned about the Palasgians? Now its more Albania vs Serbia type of debate rather the origins of the Palsgians.
    It has to do with the topic because today's hotspot of E-V13 was uninhabited just 1500 years ago. Then came Slavs, who probably carried some of it (5-15%). Current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history and Pelasgians.

  2. #452
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.



    We don't know where E-V13 was 4,400 years ago, we have no samples E-V13 in ancient times, in the Balkans and Europe. Nobody mentioned Turks in period before 4,400 years. About debate with noUserforAname, it has no link with the thread. I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.

    I gave the source about E-V13. We can see three subclades and they are relatively young:

    http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/



    I was very precise, yes in this forum is confusion. If you want to set what members of forum wrote about E-V13, someone who is not in the forum would be in confusion. I think it is consequence because we have no enough knowledge about expansion of this haplogroup. I told you, it is possible that I'm carrier of this haplogroup. I'm "multinational", I have origin from three nations. And scientists write different about this haplogroup. You can see different times in different scientific paper. Scientists often speaks of post neolithic expansion haplogroup of E-V13 in Europe.

    According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

    From the paper:
    "A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

    As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.

    I think it's also just as well to clear up any confusion about E-V13. A sample was indeed found in a Neolithic sample from 5,000 BC. It was in the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia.

    This is the link to the paper:
    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/1...df?with-ds=yes

    This is the table where it is clearly labeled as E-V13:
    Attachment 7341

    It also so appears in Jean Manco's online table of ancient DNA:
    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    This is why the author said that it was definitely related to the E-V13 in the Balkans.

    Attachment 7342


    This is the map of the current distribution of E-V13. It may not be totally current, but the general parameters are clear.

    So, we do indeed know that E-V13, and moreover an E-V13 related to the E-V13 now present in the Aegean and surrounding areas, was present in Neolithic Europe 5,000 BC in a Cardial context. Once again, Cardial was an east to west Neolithic migration that began in the Aegean and/or the Balkan area.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif


    Given all of that, until some new piece of ancient DNA is proffered which would change the picture, the movement into Europe of E-V13 would seem to have been from east to west and probably during the Neolithic, as numerous scholars have posited.

    It's true that we don't know for certain where the "father" of the E-V13 cluster that is most common in the Balkans originated. However, I hardly think it's parsimonious, looking at all this data, to posit he came from Spain or Africa or some other rather bizarre scenario. The likelihood is that he came from somewhere near by.

    I also think it has to be borne in mind that TMRCA should not be conflated with "date of arrival". The particular TMRCA of a certain group could be consistent with the arrival of a lineage long before.

    The expansion certainly seems to have taken place in the Bronze Age and probably continued in the Iron Age, to Italy, among other places.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #453
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,918
    Points
    18,138
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,138, Level: 41
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 812
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It has to do with the topic because today's hotspot of E-V13 was uninhabited just 1500 years ago. Then came Slavs, who probably carried some of it (5-15%). Current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history and Pelasgians.
    Albania is not the only hotspot for E-V13 but also, Greece and Bulgaria amoungst others who all had very ancient populations and settlements. Populations were scarce around the Whole of Europe anyway with the earliest largest being those of the Vinca culture before those of classical Greece. Farming is still thought to have been spread from Greece upwards so there must have been some kind of settlements before the classical times. If current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history then of course that should apply to all haplogroups. No? We see when we have reliable ancient samples although it seems that we can also draw some rough conclusions from the age of current populations.

  4. #454
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,918
    Points
    18,138
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,138, Level: 41
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 812
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

    From the paper:
    "A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).
    indeed, and it also confirms the ages between haplogroup EM215 (38.6 kya to 31.4-45.9 kya) and sub-haplogroup E-M35 (25.0 kya; 0-30.0 kya)., the later mutation of M78 happened between 20.3 kya and 14.8 kya in East North Africa (we already knew that). The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) which is consistent with previous papers that suggested a post-Neolithicexpansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).9un So basically its a confirmation of past papers as to

    That would mean that we can roughly calculate 10,000 years of M78 roaming around and expanding before the E-V13 and other subclades were mutated later on.

  5. #455
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is Maleth's post from the E-V13 thread. I think it bears re-posting here for some clarity.

    "This what Steve Bird (author of the Roman theory for E-V13 in Britian) has to say on the new paper from the E-V13 forum:

    (quote) We can improve on this estimate further, however, by recalling that a V13 aDNA skeleton, carbon dated to 7 kya, was found in northeastern Spain recently. This gives us a firm lower boundary for the appearance of V13. Since it is unlikely that the skeleton found in the Spanish cave was the founder of the V13 subclade, an older date of coalescence must be found. We can now say that V13 is AT LEAST 7,000 years old, and perhaps as old as 10,800 years old. The central estimate of 8.1 kya for the TMRCA actually fits quite nicely with the appearance of the V13 skeleton on the Mediterranean coast 7 kya. (It should also be noted that the rho estimate barely overlaps the known 7 kya lower fence but just barely, with the upper 95% CI at 7.3 kya). We are left with a strong estimate of the TMRCA for V13 of 7-10.8 kya (97.5% CI, since we can ignore the portion of the tail that is younger than 7 kya). There is only a 2.5% probability that the "true" TMRCA is older than 10.8 kya and there is zero probability that it is younger than 7 kya.

    Another interesting finding is that of Figure S4 (Supplementary Figures). Using a posterior probability of ancestral geographic location, the authors predict a nearly 100% probability of the geographic origin of V13 being in Europe. The analysis includes one Druze male subject (from Israel), which accounts for the extremely small sliver of Asian probability seen in the pie chart of S4. This is very significant because it moves the theoretical origin of V13 from the Levant/Anatolia to the Balkan peninsula proper. (/quote)"

    Is it still possible that the specific "father" of the E-V13 cluster that dominates the Balkans today came to the area from somewhere nearby in the Aegean? Yes, I think it is, because the upstream clade might have been pretty widespread, if perhaps scarce, and the one that got his break in the Bronze Age need not have been specifically in one precise area. However, I'm persuaded that this cluster has been in the Balkans from at least the Bronze Age, and probably since the Neolithic.

    The issue of the Pelasgians is a separate one. I don't often quote Wiki, but this happens to comport with what I have read before about the Pelasgians.

    "The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

    I'm the last one to say the ancient authors should be slavishly followed as to ethnography and geography, but in this case, they all seem to be in agreement as to the general area:

    Location of Pelasgians based on ancient authors.jpg

    Is this proof that the "Pelasgians" were E-V13 pre Greeks? No it doesn't. We will have to wait for ancient Greek samples from before the time of the steppe migrations, but even then, I don't know if the issue can be settled, because we don't have specific cultural artifacts, burials, etc. that we can definitely label as "Pelasgian". We will get an idea, however, as to whether E-V13 was already in Greece and the areas north of it before the steppe people came.

    My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.

  6. #456
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    20,999
    Level
    44
    Points: 20,999, Level: 44
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 651
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Serbia



    I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

    "The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia. "

  7. #457
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Милан М. View Post
    In 1854, an Austrian diplomat and Albanian language specialist, Johann Georg von Hahn, identified the Pelasgian language with Ur-Albanian. This theory has been rejected by modern scholars but is still supported by some Albanian nationalists.

    Milan, up to now, there is no scientific links between Albanian and Pelazgian language, we dont even know what Pelazgian language is or was....The link here however might be genetical (greek, albanian), language is a different topic and so too genetics.

  8. #458
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Garrick: I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

    "The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia. "
    It appears that Cruciani has changed his mind, as he is a co-author of the new Trombetta et al paper quoted above. In fact, correspondence is to be addressed to him.


    "Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent.



    + Author Affiliations

    • 1Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “C. Darwin”, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
    • 2The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, U.K. (present address);
    • 3Dipartimento di Biologia Ambientale, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
    • 4Accademia Europea di Bolzano (EURAC), Istituto per le Mummie e l'Iceman, Bolzano, Italy;
    • 5Dipartimento di Sanità Pubblica e Malattie Infettive, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
    • 6Laboratoire d’Anthropologie Moléculaire et Imagerie de Synthèse, UMR 5288, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS), Université Toulouse-3–Paul-Sabatier, Toulouse, France;
    • 7Department of Animal Biology-Anthropology, Biodiversity Research Institute, University of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain;
    • 8Pediatrics Department, TOBB-Economy and Technology University Hospital, 06510, Ankara, Turkey
    • 9Istituto di Biologia e Patologia Molecolari, CNR, Roma 00185, Italy;
    • 10Dipartimento di Medicina Interna e Specialità Mediche, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
    • 11Dipartimento di Biologia, Università di Roma “Tor Vergata”, Rome 00133, Italy.


    • *Author for Correspondence: Fulvio Cruciani, Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “C. Darwin”, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, Tel: +39 06 49912826, Fax: +39 06 4456866; e-mail: [email protected]"

  9. #459
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    @Garrick,

    I think the following part of your post upthread more appropriately belongs in the Pinhasi et al thread discussing ancient dna results than in a thread about Pelasgians and E-V13, so I am going to repost it there.

    "We have:

    NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
    K8 NG21-10
    ANE 0
    South_Eurasian 0
    ENF 41.1
    East_Eurasian 0
    WHG 58.9
    Oceanian 0
    Pygmy 0
    Sub-Saharan 0

    It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today. If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings."

  10. #460
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    20,999
    Level
    44
    Points: 20,999, Level: 44
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 651
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.
    I must give answer, it can be important for thread.

    The matter is very complex and we should much more knowledge and new studies.

    We know a little about subject, what we know about Slavs is group of nations who speak one family of language.

    Generally assumption is that Slavic haplogroup is R1a and that I2a carriers are like some "heelers", all culture and IE language is from R1a. We think languages of I2, and I1 too, are extinct. It is "actual wisdom." The picture is not much "happy" for the oldest haplogroup in Europe.

    But, is it really so?

    A lot of that we don't know. However, knowledge arises with newer studies.

    First Vinca sample from Serbia which we saw tell us that WHG is very big. In different forums people write that high probability is that Vinca people were I carriers, more precise, I2 carriers.

    Of course, several samples in Europe says that haplogroup I2 was found in Mesholitic!, and they were all hunter gatherers. We know that carriers of haplogropup I are old Europeans.

    We can see in Eupedia:

    Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from very minor haplogroups like C6 and deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ sometime between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. In other words, Cro-Magnons most probably belonged to IJ and I (alongside older haplogroups like F and C6).
    ...

    Now, we will see Cucuteni Trypillian culture. According to Macimo:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture.
    It is very interesting, older Vinca (5700-4500 BC) and younger Cucuteni-Trypillia (4800-3000 BC), probably both have dominant I2! We will see if it is true.

    (Vinca: place in Serbia; Cucuteni, place in Romania; Trypillia: place in Ukraine.)

    But we can see more interesting things. For example:




    Mother Earth in Cucuteni Trypolye culture

    We can compare:



    Mother Earth with her baby from Vinca/Starcevo culture

    We can see similarity. It is possible that continuity exists between two cultures! Of course probability is higher if carriers of same haplogroup created these culture.
    ...

    With website: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

    Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.

    Vinca letters

    Attachment 7344

    These I2 carriers weren't unintelligent, maybe they invented the letters before ancient Egyptians and Summerians.
    ...

    We will not go away. But what if exists continuity between these two cultures and later cultures?

    Angela do not get me wrong, but some R people (R1a, R1b anyway) think everything flowed from them.

    But what if R1a carriers received culture of I2 carriers? (Or at least it was a mutual exchange where I2a carriers were not subaltern.)

    How you see we don't know a lot. We cannot come to speak about Slavs until we understand the moving and expansion of haplogroups, especially I2, and complex relations and exchange cultures and languages between I2 and R1a carriers, and certainly carriers of other haplogroups who have contributed creating Proto Slavs.

    It is possible that Vinca culture and Cucuteni Trypilla culture played significant role.
    ...

    Vinca culture, territory:



    Cucuteni Trypillia culture, territory:


  11. #461
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    ^^I am getting beyond tired of this Serb/Albanian war. Didn't you guys have enough of this twenty-five years ago?

    None of the above post has anything to do with the topic of this thread. The topic is the Pelasgians, or by a reasonable extension, E-V13. All the twisting and turning by the Serb members, even to trying to bring up Cruciani et al 2007, when Cruciani is an author of the present study, is not going to make E-V13 a "foreign" y dna lineage in the Balkans. It would have been intellectually honest and gracious to admit you were wrong about that.

    All of you also keep conflating and confusing ydna lineages, autosomal dna and language. You can't understand population genetics and the ethnogenesis of any people until you stop doing that.

    We don't know the yDna line of this Vinca sample. Probably there was I2a among them. At the time the sample lived, he was a Neolithic farmer. Some I2a moved to the steppe perhaps, where the autosomal signature might have changed when they became steppe dwellers. The I2a people who lived either in the steppe or in more northern parts of Europe and who might have been picked up in the "Slavic" migrations and then come to the Balkans would have been different yet.

    So, you could have three yDna I2a men of related yDna lineages who were very different from one another autosomally as well as in terms of culture.

    Nobody is saying that some of the I2a in the Balkans might not have been there continuously since the Mesolithic. The "Slavic" speaking people and the I2a they carried, if any, were not...they were late entrants into the Balkans.

    I really can't put it any more simply than that. If you don't see it, you don't.

    I must say that I find people's changing positions on these cultures rather extraordinary. The "Old Europe" cultures were all but called "wimpy", "weak" farming cultures with a too female oriented culture who were infinitely inferior to hunter gatherers and steppe people both. Now all of a sudden because they think they can make them look more "WHG" in calculators, they want to "claim" them and their culture.

    Amazing.

    If you want to pursue this with these kinds of lengthy expositions, please find an appropriate thread. This isn't it.

  12. #462
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    [QUOTE=Dalmat;460794]
    http://i.imgur.com/BHlVkQR.png

    Its obvious Albanians are not descendant from those popular illirians mentioned by Roman sources with their illyrian wars, because all of them came from modern Croatia and BiH.
    There is genetic continuity of west balkans, from 3000 BC, and of such people romans called Illiryans even today, and Albanians are not part of it.

    Dalmat it is really hard to know for Illyrians as people migrated always throughout the time.

    Maciamo notes that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 followed by I2a, I2a2, G2a.

    If this is correct than Albanians are part of this around 40% followed by Greeks and others who have high E-V13 (we are all mixed)
    If this is correct than Illyrians with majority E-V13 came from the far south Greece/Peloponnese (8,000 ybp)
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml

    Majority of serbs are in fact of what greeks called thracian and dacian ancestry, or specifically tribalians, and share similarity with bulgarians and romanians.
    I wouldn't say all (majority) similar with Thracian Bulgarian and Romanian.....

    Older to newer - (it does not imply say Greek/Albanian cause they didn't exist at those periods, it's just to base the current locations)
    18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)
    5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
    45% I2a1 coming from far Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania - Cucutemy/Trypillian culture Ukraine) 3,000 ybp - Majority
    15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania or current Poland) 3,000 ybp
    5% J

    Modern serbs, croats and bulgarians, as in balkan people are descendants of trako-illirians, and before that form cultures of Vučedol and Vinča.
    Also (check Maciamo maps) - Vinca had a majrity E-V13 following by others at 6,000 ybp



    Your source might also correlate with Maciamo maps - Tuscan, South Italy, Greek Albanian share the same groups

    do you have the link of this study?


  13. #463
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-12-10
    Posts
    1,603
    Points
    20,999
    Level
    44
    Points: 20,999, Level: 44
    Level completed: 28%, Points required for next Level: 651
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Serbia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post

    Dalmat it is really hard to know for Illyrians as people migrated always throughout the time.

    Maciamo notes that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13 followed by I2a, I2a2, G2a.

    If this is correct than Albanians are part of this around 40% followed by Greeks and others who have high E-V13 (we are all mixed)
    If this is correct than Illyrians with majority E-V13 came from the far south Greece/Peloponnese (8,000 ybp)
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolit...rope_map.shtml



    I wouldn't say all (majority) similar with Thracian Bulgarian and Romanian.....

    Older to newer - (it does not imply say Greek/Albanian cause they didn't exist at those periods, it's just to base the current locations)
    18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)
    5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
    45% I2a1 coming from far Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania - Cucutemy/Trypillian culture Ukraine) 3,000 ybp - Majority
    15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania or current Poland) 3,000 ybp
    5% J



    Also (check Maciamo maps) - Vinca had a majrity E-V13 following by others at 6,000 ybp



    Your source might also correlate with Maciamo maps - Tuscan, South Italy, Greek Albanian share the same groups

    do you have the link of this study?
    noUseForAname
    Why you put Illyirans in this thread. What Illyrians have with Pelasgians? They have nothing, two completely different populations, different origin, in different times, in different locations.

    Here is one opinion about Pelasgians, Calvin Evans, American author and historian:

    The Pelasgians: The Black Original inhabitants of Ancient Greece


    https://saggigga.wordpress.com/2014/...ncient-greece/

    ...
    What do you think about it?

    This is for discussion. Lets all we members try to strictly hold thread.

  14. #464
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Agree with Garrick..........pelasgians are not Illyrians, nothing to do with each other
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  15. #465
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    [QUOTE=noUseForAname;461127]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmat View Post




    do you have the link of this study?

    where did you get this from?

  16. #466
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,918
    Points
    18,138
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,138, Level: 41
    Level completed: 10%, Points required for next Level: 812
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    The issue of the Pelasgians is a separate one. I don't often quote Wiki, but this happens to comport with what I have read before about the Pelasgians.

    "The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1]In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

    I'm the last one to say the ancient authors should be slavishly followed as to ethnography and geography, but in this case, they all seem to be in agreement as to the general area:

    Location of Pelasgians based on ancient authors.jpg

    Is this proof that the "Pelasgians" were E-V13 pre Greeks? No it doesn't. We will have to wait for ancient Greek samples from before the time of the steppe migrations, but even then, I don't know if the issue can be settled, because we don't have specific cultural artifacts, burials, etc. that we can definitely label as "Pelasgian". We will get an idea, however, as to whether E-V13 was already in Greece and the areas north of it before the steppe people came.

    My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.
    Great summary Angela and it brings back the subject BANG to its tracks. Sometimes I wonder why so many hisotrians refer to the Pelasgians as mysterious or similar descriptions. There is lots of smoke but we dont know what kind of fire, but from the smoke we can often associate what kind of fire is burning.

    We have lots of references and indications that the


    • Pelasgians were pre Hellenistic.
    • We also have have indications that they were associated with the Peloponnese (but separate to the Mycenaes) and spoke a barbaric language. What other language could be spoken in the area and what other cultures do we know to have close contact through except for a Semitic one. (Canaanite maybe? with Hebrew being its closest counterpart)
    • We have accounts that Pelasgians even settled in parts of Italy and made war with the Sicels.
    • We also know that Egypt is very often cited in Greek mythology
    • We also know that Greeks adopted to the most Phoenician alphabet
    • We also know that Europa (abducted by Zeus) was Phoenician (probably in relation to the Phoenician goddess Astarte)
    • We also know that Zeus has sometimes been referred to as Palasgian diety and king of all gods with Athena being his daughter.


    Here is also something that seems to be common in all of these cultures, just to add a little more spice.


    Egyptian temple



    Phoenician temple



    Greek temple




    Roman temple



    All similar temples in other areas were built as an influence of these 3 cultures (as Im considering Romans as a continuation of the Greek one)

    In my opinion Greeks from the classic era are a mixture of tribes of different origins who eventually intermixed to be one people with common dieties, law and culture, like they are today pooling in different attributes. Yellow mixed with blue makes Green, but Yellow is not Green and Green is not Blue.


    The whole thing does not look too mysterious to me.

    Will we ever get results from Neolithic and classical times from these regions?

  17. #467
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Albania is not the only hotspot for E-V13 but also, Greece and Bulgaria amoungst others who all had very ancient populations and settlements. Populations were scarce around the Whole of Europe anyway with the earliest largest being those of the Vinca culture before those of classical Greece. Farming is still thought to have been spread from Greece upwards so there must have been some kind of settlements before the classical times. If current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history then of course that should apply to all haplogroups. No? We see when we have reliable ancient samples although it seems that we can also draw some rough conclusions from the age of current populations.
    1. I am talking exclusively about Kosovo. The fact that it is a current hotspot it is being used for deriving wild theories about ancient times, while we all know it is utter nonsense.
    2. No. I am talking about a specific region, which AD history we know about.

  18. #468
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^I am getting beyond tired of this Serb/Albanian war. Didn't you guys have enough of this twenty-five years ago?
    There was no war. Just some mild terrorist and anti-terrorist clashes, and it's still pretty much on. I guess as soon as UN (or whatever international police is there) steps out of region.

  19. #469
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    There was no war. Just some mild terrorist and anti-terrorist clashes, and it's still pretty much on. I guess as soon as UN (or whatever international police is there) steps out of region.
    You're right. War is too clean a word for it. It was butchery and mass rape and ethnic cleansing. There should be thousands spending the rest of their lives in prison. Maybe I'd even bring back the death penalty.

  20. #470
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,824
    Points
    249,202
    Level
    100
    Points: 249,202, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

    Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
    http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte...75/pdf/doc.pdf


    Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

    The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

    The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

    R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

    Kudos to Maciamo for always holding out for J2 having made it into Europe by the Neolithic. Do I get any points for saying it might have made it by the Late Neolithic? :)

    Here is a map so you know where they are:

    Last edited by Angela; 29-06-15 at 19:02.

  21. #471
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Great summary Angela and it brings back the subject BANG to its tracks. Sometimes I wonder why so many hisotrians refer to the Pelasgians as mysterious or similar descriptions. There is lots of smoke but we dont know what kind of fire, but from the smoke we can often associate what kind of fire is burning.

    We have lots of references and indications that the


    • Pelasgians were pre Hellenistic.
    • We also have have indications that they were associated with the Peloponnese (but separate to the Mycenaes) and spoke a barbaric language. What other language could be spoken in the area and what other cultures do we know to have close contact through except for a Semitic one. (Canaanite maybe? with Hebrew being its closest counterpart)
    • We have accounts that Pelasgians even settled in parts of Italy and made war with the Sicels.
    • We also know that Egypt is very often cited in Greek mythology
    • We also know that Greeks adopted to the most Phoenician alphabet
    • We also know that Europa (abducted by Zeus) was Phoenician (probably in relation to the Phoenician goddess Astarte)
    • We also know that Zeus has sometimes been referred to as Palasgian diety and king of all gods with Athena being his daughter.


    All similar temples in other areas were built as an influence of these 3 cultures (as Im considering Romans as a continuation of the Greek one)

    In my opinion Greeks from the classic era are a mixture of tribes of different origins who eventually intermixed to be one people with common dieties, law and culture, like they are today pooling in different attributes. Yellow mixed with blue makes Green, but Yellow is not Green and Green is not Blue.

    The whole thing does not look too mysterious to me.

    Not Mysterious at all, i think the Greek early Gods were surreally not Hellenized yet, as you mention Zeus has been also referred as Pelasgian.

    Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...





    Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[20]

    Maybe this might be another link, maybe those first man born in Africa?....maybe another link that they might be M78 (north east Africa) than mutated in Europe E-V13?


    i have sourced before that they lived around Pindus Mountains, they were barbaric and probably not people from the sea

    Plain of Thessaly, to the west of classical Pelasgiotis, but in the original range of the Pelasgians. The Pindus Mountains are visible in the background. The river is the Peneus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians



  22. #472
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're right. War is too clean a word for it. It was butchery and mass rape and ethnic cleansing. There should be thousands spending the rest of their lives in prison. Maybe I'd even bring back the death penalty.

    Mild clashes as IKE said LOL, so mild that if you see the list i sourced you'll understand, all the highest level state officials found guilty by International Tribunal for ethnic cleansing (genocide) in Bosnia Croatia Kosovo, and now imagine what paramilitary had done, you are right there should be much much more in prison for that....

    These atrocities should be condemned no matter the nationalities, this is what i still don't understand that a lot of people still don't even after 20 years...

  23. #473
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Agree with Garrick..........pelasgians are not Illyrians, nothing to do with each other

    That is Maciamo arguing, we are not talking here by specific names, it said that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13
    if this is correct that Illyria area was majority E-V13 then surely they have came from either South Greece or even Terramare Culture, however Maciamo placed the roots of E-V13 8,000 in south Greece.
    if E-V13 have came from Terramare Culture to South Greece then it might mean that Illyria is pre Mycenean and pre Pelazgoi, but these seems not to be the case....


    Now call them Pelazgian or whatever it is clear that there is a genetic link....E-V13 traveled around and it was a majority 4,000 in South Greece Illyria and Terramare Culture. as per Maciamo is was a majority even at Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp....

  24. #474
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    That is Maciamo arguing, we are not talking here by specific names, it said that Terramare Culture (Italiy, Sicily, Sardinia) and Illyria at 4,000 ybp had a majority E-V13
    if this is correct that Illyria area was majority E-V13 then surely they have came from either South Greece or even Terramare Culture, however Maciamo placed the roots of E-V13 8,000 in south Greece.
    if E-V13 have came from Terramare Culture to South Greece then it might mean that Illyria is pre Mycenean and pre Pelazgoi, but these seems not to be the case....


    Now call them Pelazgian or whatever it is clear that there is a genetic link....E-V13 traveled around and it was a majority 4,000 in South Greece Illyria and Terramare Culture. as per Maciamo is was a majority even at Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp....
    Do you actually know where Illyria is on the map?...............the bulk of it ( 80% ) is only in modern Croatia and Bosnia

  25. #475
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Not Mysterious at all, i think the Greek early Gods were surreally not Hellenized yet, as you mention Zeus has been also referred as Pelasgian.

    Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...





    Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[20]

    Maybe this might be another link, maybe those first man born in Africa?....maybe another link that they might be M78 (north east Africa) than mutated in Europe E-V13?


    i have sourced before that they lived around Pindus Mountains, they were barbaric and probably not people from the sea

    Plain of Thessaly, to the west of classical Pelasgiotis, but in the original range of the Pelasgians. The Pindus Mountains are visible in the background. The river is the Peneus.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


    Pindus mountains, home of the Molossians, one of the 14 tribes that make up the Epirote people

Page 19 of 20 FirstFirst ... 917181920 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •