Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

Can you please reply to your post i wrote above (#354)?......please don't interfere when i wrote to other people's post....

It doesn't matter. This is a free forum, everything what someone write, members of forum can replicate. You can answer all my posts, what does it matter whether I wrote you or other people, it is your right as member of forum.

Well, You say that to Maciamo buddy....

Why do you impute? Does not make sense.

(who said about Albanians) i think you are not understanding English sufficiently
Maciamo argues that E-V13 is indigenous from South Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp...and inhabitants of Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp where majority E-V13 and they came there from South Greece/Peloponnese.

You don't understand.

E-V13 carriers from Peloponesse, 6000 years Before Christ, have nothing with today's Albanians.

Stop that all E-V13 in history and today connect with Albanians, it is nonsense.
...

You confused because mix what Serbs in the jargon say grandmothers and frogs.

And I told you that only 3.48% E1b1b carriers in Europe and Turkey today are Albanians.

You can see Serbs in Serbia, about 639.620 males are E-V13 carriers, in Republic of Serbian (Bosnia and Herzegovina) 176.000 males are E-V13 carriers. If we take in account Serbs in Montenegro, Croatia, etc in the Balkans about 840.000 or more Serbian males are E-V13 carriers.

About 844.400 Albanians in the Balkans are E-V13 carriers (if we are precise, it is small lower because other E subclades, but it doesn't change much this amount).

Practically almost same Serbian and Albanian males in the Balkans are E-V13 carriers. Hm, if we take your logic. If in Vinca were E-V13 carriers, and because Vinca is in heart of Serbia, todays E-V13 carriers in Serbia are Vinca's descendants, Serbs are Vinca's descendants.

And we can write more. Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia was E-V13 carrier. Do you love Milosevic because he belonged to this haplogroup?

Can you see how thinking that all E-V13 carriers are linked with Albanian is grotesque.

...
And what do you think of this assertion (one member of this forum):

No modern population can claim that their ethnogenesis has formed during the Bronze Age.
 
noUseforAname

I think the Hittite branch is to early. Yes probably it was R1b but most certainly it was from different branch. I think Albanian branch will be under R1b-Z2103. The same as Armenians and Greeks.
How much Albanians have this specific subclade? Is there any information about that?


I have found just few Clans, and from those looks like the major group is L23, however Clans (like one surname) are identified with a large group from a certain region.

Maciamo - R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/abanian-dna-poject/about/results




Population
--------------------------


Albanians
(Kosovar)
Language
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b
-------


21.10
R1a
-------


4.42
I
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
E-V13
---------


47.37
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
Reference
----------------------


Pericic2005[3]
AlbaniansIE (Albanian)5518.29.1I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
27.5J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.80.00.0Battaglia2008[5]
 
It doesn't matter. This is a free forum, everything what someone write, members of forum can replicate. You can answer all my posts, what does it matter whether I wrote you or other people, it is your right as member of forum.

Yes of course you can reply anywhere, but you are rather leaving you own posts unanswered, so can you answer the previous post (multi quotes by multi quotes?)....(#354......#344......#341.......#336)


You don't understand.
E-V13 carriers from Peloponesse, 6000 years Before Christ, have nothing with today's Albanians.
Stop that all E-V13 in history and today connect with Albanians, it is nonsense.

(who said all E-V13 connect with Albanians) Don't pre concept (prejudge) please...Maciamo argues that E-V13 is indigenous from South Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp...and inhabitants of Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp where majority E-V13 and they came there from South Greece/Peloponnese.

Albanians are a direct descend from E-V13, and as per population (Albanian speaking regions) they have the highest E-V13 in the world.

You can see Serbs in Serbia, about 639.620 males are E-V13 carriers, in Republic of Serbian (Bosnia and Herzegovina) 176.000 males are E-V13 carriers. If we take in account Serbs in Montenegro, Croatia, etc in the Balkans about 840.000 or more Serbian males are E-V13 carriers.
Practically almost same Serbian and Albanian males in the Balkans are E-V13 carriers. Hm, if we take your logic. If in Vinca were E-V13 carriers, and because Vinca is in heart of Serbia, todays E-V13 carriers in Serbia are Vinca's descendants, Serbs are Vinca's descendants.


I am not sure if you are taking into the account the spread of E-V13 (from south) and how there were migrations at all times in low mid to high percentages. Having the roots from around current Albanian/Greek speaking regions since 8,000 ybp, and the area is not small, it makes sense since 8,000 it expanded from there to all directions and reached higher numbers outside (Albanian/Greek), because if they expand and expand without spreading from their current locations (is rather not possible)

Maciami culture maps explains pretty much, south Greece/Peleponesse the roots of E-V13 9,000 ybp, spread from there probably by very low numbers all directions. they reached as a majority Vinca Culture by 6,000 ybp, black and Grey Pottery and Neolithic Greece. that is today (borders) Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo, Mid to south Serbia. Still as a majority by 4,500 expanded to West Bulgaria. Expanded from these areas to all the Europe as a minority.

Then a big shift came at around 4,000 ybp. Curent Serbia no more as a majority of E-V13, (probably majority pushed back to south east and some might even expanded all directions by low numbers, plus others might have came in bigger numbers )
however Maciamo notes Illyria very high (by 4,000) in E-V13 and Ancient Macedonia even higher (see maps), Ancient Macedonia with current parts of mid/north Greece Thessaly, Albania and Kosovo.

We can say that 18% of current all Serbs are a descend from (from E-V13) either parts of mid to south Serbia Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp, or current Albania Kosovo Macedonia 7,000 ybp, or South Greece/Peloponnese 8,000 ybp.......whatever makes you happy...


And we can write more. Slobodan Milosevic, president of Serbia was E-V13 carrier. Do you love Milosevic because he belonged to this haplogroup?

No political discussions please, we all know who Milosevic is and what he has done to Bosnians, Croatians and Albanians.
 
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noUseforAname
I think the Hittite branch is to early. Yes probably it was R1b but most certainly it was from different branch. I think Albanian branch will be under R1b-Z2103. The same as Armenians and Greeks.
How much Albanians have this specific subclade? Is there any information about that?

Maciamo notes that R1b L23 might be a Hittite group.....And we see that it's especially high at Albanian speaking regions (L23), personally i didn't know L23 is that old around 4,000 ybp, already there.....he gives some possibilities of Hittites coming from Balkans to Anatolia....If first hypotheses is correct then L23 of Balkans is around 5,000 ybp older than Hittities (it might be as a post-Yamna expansion)


R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)

Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians.

Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif



The Hittites (c. 2000-1178 BCE) were the first Indo-Europeans to defy (and defeat) the mighty Mesopotamian and Egyptian empires. There are two hypotheses regarding the origins of the Hittites. The first is that they came from the eastern Balkans and invaded Anatolia by crossing the Bosphorus. That would mean that they belonged either to the L23* or the Z2103 subclade. The other plausible scenario is that they were an offshoot of the late Maykop culture, and that they crossed the Caucasus to conquer the Hattian kingdom (perhaps after being displaced from the North Caucasus by the R1a people of the Catacomb culture). In that case the Hittites might have belonged to the R1b-M269* or the R1b-M73 subclade. The first hypothesis has the advantage of having a single nucleus, the Balkans, as the post-Yamna expansion of all Indo-European R1b. The Maykop hypothesis, on the other hand, would explain why the Anatolian branch of IE languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lydian, Palaic) is so archaic compared to other Indo-European languages, which would have originated in Yamna rather than Maykop.There is substantial archaeological and linguistic evidence that Troy was an Indo-European city associated with the steppe culture and haplogroup R1b. The Trojans were Luwian speakers related to the Hittites (hence Indo-European), with attested cultural ties to the culture of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. The first city of Troy dates back to 3000 BCE, right in the middle of the Maykop period. Troy might have been founded by Maykop people as a colony securing the trade routes between the Black Sea and the Aegean. The founding of Troy happens to coincide exactly with the time the first galleys were made. Considering the early foundation of Troy, the most likely of the two Indo-European paternal haplogroups would be R1b-M269 or L23.

The Phrygians and the Proto-Armenians are two other Indo-European tribes stemming from the Balkans. Both appear to have migrated to Anatolia around 1200 BCE, during the 'great upheavals' of the Eastern Mediterranean (see below). The Phrygians (or Bryges) founded a kingdom (1200-700 BCE) in west central Anatolia, taking over most of the crumbling Hittite Empire. The Armenians crossed all Anatolia until Lake Van and settled in the Armenian Highlands. Nowadays 30% of Armenian belong to haplogroup R1b, the vast majority to the L23 subclade (=> see The Indo-European migrations to Armenia).Most of the R1b found in Greece today is of the Balkanic Z2103 variety. There is also a minority of Proto-Celtic S116/P312 and of Italic/Alpine Celtic S28/U152. L23 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE. Their language appear to have been close enough to Mycenaean Greek to be mutually intelligible and easy for locals to adopt. The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (M269 or L23) to Greece, but their origins can be traced back through archaeology to the Catacomb culture and theSeima-Turbino phenomenon of the northern forest-steppe, which would make them primarily an R1a1a tribe.
Greek and Anatolian S116 and some S28 lineages could be attributed to the La Tène Celtic invasions of the 3rd century BCE. The Romans also certainly brought S28 lineages (=> see Genetics of the Italian people), and probably also the Venetians later on, notably on the islands. Older clades of R1b, such as P25 and V88, are only a small minority and would have come along E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Middle East.

The great upheavals circa 1200 BCE
1200 BCE was a turning point in European and Near-Eastern history. In Central Europe, the Urnfield culture evolved into the Hallstatt culture, traditionally associated with the classical Celtic civilization, which was to have a crucial influence on the development of ancient Rome. In Italy, the Terramare culture comes to and end with the Italo-Celtic invasions. In the Pontic steppes, the Srubna culture let place to the Cimmerians, a nomadic people speaking an Iranian or Thracian language. The Iron-age Colchian culture (1200-600 BCE) starts in the North Caucasus region. Its further expansion to the south of the Caucasus correspond to the first historical mentions of the Proto-Armenian branch of Indo-European languages (circa 1200 BCE). In the central Levant the Phoenicians start establishing themselves as significant maritime powers and building their commercial empire around the southern Mediterranean.But the most important event of the period was incontestably the destruction of the Near-Eastern civilizations, possibly by the Sea Peoples. The great catastrophe that ravaged the whole Eastern Mediterranean from Greece to Egypt circa 1200 BCE is a subject that remains controversial. The identity of the Sea Peoples has been the object of numerous speculations. What is certain is that all the palace-based societies in the Near-East were abruptly brought to an end by tremendous acts of destruction, pillage and razing of cities. The most common explanation is that the region was invaded by technologically advanced warriors from the north, probably Indo-Europeans descended from the steppes via the Balkans.The Hittite capital Hattusa was destroyed in 1200 BCE, and by 1160 BCE the empire had collapsed, probably under the pressure of the Phrygians and the Armenians coming from the Balkans. The Mycenaean cities were ravaged and abandoned throughout the 12th century BCE, leading to the eventual collapse of Mycenaean civilization by 1100 BCE. The kingdom of Ugarit in Syria was annihilated and its capital never resettled. Other cities in the Levant, Cyprus and Crete were burned and left abandoned for many generations. The Egyptians had to repel assaults from the Philistinesfrom the East and the Libyans from the West - two tribes of supposed Indo-European origin. The Lybians were accompanied by mercenaries from northern lands (the Ekwesh, Teresh, Lukka, Sherden and Shekelesh), whose origin is uncertain, but has been placed in Anatolia, Greece and/or southern Italy.The devastation of Greece followed the legendary Trojan War (1194-1187 BCE). It has been postulated that theDorians, an Indo-European people from the Balkans (probably coming from modern Bulgaria or Macedonia), invaded a weakened Mycenaean Greece after the Trojan War, and finally settled in Greece as one of the three major ethnic groups. The Dorian regions of classical Greece, where Doric dialects were spoken, were essentially the southern and eastern Peloponnese, Crete and Rhodes, which is also the part of Greece with the highest percentage of R1b-L23.Another hypothesis is that the migration of the Illyrians from north-east Europe to the Balkans displaced previous Indo-European tribes, namely the Dorians to Greece, the Phrygians to north-western Anatolia and the Libu to Libya (after a failed attempt to conquer the Nile Delta in Egypt). The Philistines, perhaps displaced from Anatolia, finally settled in Palestine around 1200 BCE, unable to enter Egypt.
 
We can say that 18% of current all Serbs are a descend from (from E-V13) either parts of mid to south Serbia Vinca Culture 6,000 ybp, or current Albania Kosovo Macedonia 7,000 ybp, or South Greece/Peloponnese 8,000 ybp.......whatever makes you happy...

Neither satisfied or dissatisfied. Only as you know it is pointless to connect 3.48% population Albanians with all E-V13 in the world before 10000 years and today.

All those wonderful pictures whose Maciamo put about ancient Europe, haplogroups G, I, E etc. nothing to do with today Albanians.

Beginnings of the Albanian language are in eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus, and probably carriers of R1b ht35 haplogroup, are creators this language, as for Armenian language, not E-V13 carriers. In comparing with Proto Armenian, speakers of Proto Albanian lived close to people who spoked Iranian languages, and therefore even in modern Albanian there are words from Western (Anatolian) and Northern (Caucasus) Iranian languages.

If E-V13 carriers were creators of Albanian, this language today was AfroAsiatic not IE.

I tried to find connection Armenian and Albanian with Hittite but the difference is insurmountable. Hittite language for example has no distinction between masculine and feminine grammatical gender. According some luinguists Hittite language is not doughter language to Proto Indo European, but sister language to PIE. In any case Hittite split from PIE very early. In classifications IE there are no link Hittite with Armenian and Albanian. They are very very far.
 

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[QUOTE
Some experts considered tribe of Carpi as Albanians. And Costoboci tribe, too.
In the picture hypothetical Carpi movement from Romania/Moldavia to Albania.

This is why Albanians have no links (lowest %) with either Carpathian's Dacians or Thracians....We should speak by percentages because we are all mixed....

Maciamo:
The Thracians, Dacians
According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups.A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE, this is why Bosnia Croatia Serbia have very high I2a following R1a....

So you can see major % in Dacians and Thracians are R1a 30% and I2a 30%, these groups have the the lowest % especially at Albanians

Albanian speaking regions have around 7.5% of R1a and 10% I2a1 (descend from Germany Scandinavia so irrelevant here and I2a2 is that of Carpathians)......I1 is around 5% (I1 Scandinavia is irrelevant here)

So we have only R1a with 7.5% that might have came from Carpathian's


Therefore theories about Albanians descending from Dacians or Thracia would not make much sense.
 
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Neither satisfied or dissatisfied.

To make it more precise and from the thread above Serbians looks like Descend by the following (in %):

Older to newer
18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (8,000 ybp)
5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
48% I2a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp - Majority
15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp
5% J

So around 65% of current Serbs genetically descend from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) and they came to current Serbia 3,000 ybp (and of course at those periods there were no such name as Serbs)


Beginnings of the Albanian language are in eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus, and probably carriers of R1b ht35 haplogroup, are creators this language, as for Armenian language, not E-V13 carriers. In comparing with Proto Armenian, speakers of Proto Albanian lived close to people who spoked Iranian languages, and therefore even in modern Albanian there are words from Western (Anatolian) and Northern (Caucasus) Iranian languages.

You are not differentiating the language spread with genetics....see the post above from Maciamo, Armenians originate from Balkans and Hittities R1b L23 too might originated from Balkans, so if Albanian language derived from R1b L23 it is very old already in balkans 5,000 ybp Albania/Macedonia (read above there are lots of details) #364 post

E-V13 is different story, all the language spread does not bring the all genetics with it (thats why i told you you should talk in percentages)
 
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If someone speak about genetic nativity, both Albanians and Serbs, Croats and even Bulgarians are native since Neolithic. Only R1b and R1a could come later. During Bronze Age. If we go further in the past then E-V13 is from Anatolia. But it is most probably a Neolithic time and has no connection to this linguistic issues. Greeks also have E-V13. Armenians also have some E-V13 (6-7%).

Maciamo's texts are great but there are some outdated information in them. The Armenian R1b didn't came after 1200BC. We already know that it is not correct.
So I think the main problem is now to understand the origin of Albanian R1b. Also to understand the place of origin Proto-Slavic. I think it must be near North of Balkans because of some cognates with Paleo-Balkanic languages.

The Phrygian language is not related to Armenian.
Everybody can see this himself. It is a Greek like language with some connections to Celtic and Slavic languages.
http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Phrygian
 
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To make it more precise and from the thread above Serbians looks like Descend by the following (in %):

Older to newer
18% E-V13 coming from current locations of Greek/Albanian Speaking regions (6,000 ybp)
5% R1b coming from current Albanian speaking regions and Macedonia 5,000 ybp (check the thread above about R1b L23) (#364 post)
48% I2a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp - Majority
15% R1a coming from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) 3,000 ybp
5% J

So around 65% of current Serbs genetically descend from Carpathian's (current Moldova and north east Romania) and they came to current Serbia 3,000 ybp (and of course at those periods there were no such name as Serbs)




You are not differentiating the language spread with genetics....see the post above from Maciamo, Armenians originate from Balkans and Hittities R1b L23 too might originated from Balkans, so if Albanian language derived from R1b L23 it is very old already in balkans 5,000 ybp Albania/Macedonia (read above there are lots of details) #364 post

E-V13 is different story, all the language spread does not bring the all genetics with it (thats why i told you you should talk in percentages)

the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-7653/2006/0350-76530637007P.pdf

when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29


[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani



[/URL]
 
From Edi Shukriu's "Prehistory and Antique History of Kosova"(I can't find it anymore,so I'll copy-paste it) :

"The integration processes went on during the Bronze Age (2100 – 1200), relying on mine and trade economy, along with the agricultural and farming ones. The small number of dug localities of Bronze Age enables only general conclusions on the existence of settlements on lower hills (Vlashnjë, Teneshdoll) and on the plain (Ljushtë, Qëndresan/Gllarevë, Glladnicë, Nasalë/Nosalë, Berrnicë); of tumular necropolises of the mid Bronze Age (Rugovë, Ujz, Përçetë/Përçevë) and of field necropolises with urns (Berrnicë, Grashticë) in the transition from Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The findings in Kosova proved commercial links with the developed Mycenaean culture, during the mid Bronze Age (XVI-XV centuries) and this heralds the possibility of earlier contacts and influences with Mediterranean civilizations."


"The settlements of Proto-Dardanian stage are located on elevated terraces near rivers (Kllokot, Nasalë, Fafos II), whilst in the Dardanian stage they were located on higher hills. The Dardanian stage settlements are multilayered, which is an expression of empowerment of Dardanians and of their sustainable economic resources (Upper Gadime, Hisar and Kasterc of Suharekë, Veletin, Big Bardh, Cernicë, Dubofc, Vlashnjë, Cermnjan, Zatriq, Pidiq, Teneshdoll, Artanë/ Novobërdë etc.). In the Iron Age surrounding earth ramparts mixed with stones were constructed (Kulinë/Teneshdoll) or only stone ramparts (Veletin). Hilly settlements are mainly known by the name gradina and g(r)adisha (Indo-European.: gard, Albanian: gardh=fence).7 In the Pre-Dardanian stage the burying was done also in flat graves with urns – Berrnica culture (Berrnicë, Grashticë), whilst during the Dardanian stage in tumular necropolises, practicing both rituals, the one of cremation and that of coffin-burials (Romajë, Rogovë, Ujz, Shirokë, Dibiçak, Porodime, Përçetë/Përçevë, Bajë of Pejë, Llashtishtë, Gurëz/ Gërlicë, Biti, Moklikë). Tumular necropolises of Kosova belong to the Glasinac complex and are related to tombs of Kukës, Mat and Gllasinac."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac_culture

Brnjica(Bernice),cremation,using cinerary urns=Daco-Moesian culture

Glasinac,inhumation=Illyrian


"The numerous Roman settlements prove about a life dynamics, and about the increase of inhabitants in it, with the settlement of Roman administrators and soldiers. The municipiums like Ulpiana near Prishtina, Municipium DD near Soçanica, Vendenis near Gllamnik, Viciano and Theranda became administrative centres. Near other roads axes larger centres were developed, such as Gradina in the southeast of Pejë and the municipiums at Dersnik of Klinë, Çiflak of Gjakovë and Gushica of Viti."


"The polytheist tradition allowed along the respect of local gods, in special of Dardanian Goddess, god Andindus or of gods related to the cult of horses and the cavalry tradition, also other gods to be appropriated and respected, who came along with the Roman rule. Such were the Roman gods Jupiter, Minerva, Fortune, Mercury, Diane or the others as Mithra, Isida, Serapis and Jupiter Dolihen, Nemezis, Orpheus, Hecate, Asclepius, Hygia or Telesphont. It seems that it belongs to the earlier tradition also the respecting of the Thracian Knight and Danubian Knight, as interpretations of local gods, and of Thracian goddess Zbeltiurdus."


"Local elements bear also the vulgar Latin language and the onomastic, mainly Illyrian, such as the names: Longarus, Bato, Monunius, Etuta, Andia, Andio/Andinus, Annus, Anna, Catulla(?), Cinna, Cito, Dasius/Dassius, Dicco, Epicadus, Epicaris, Mesius/Messa, Nanea, Plannius, Scervidaeus, Sita, Tata/Tatta, Times, Turanis, Turelius, Vanno, Varanus, Vananilla, Varadius).60 Within the onomastic also Thracian names and names present only for the Dardanian territory have been proved, such as Ambia, Blicites, Bubita, Cocaius, Ettela, Maema, Mescena, Mesta, Momonia, Ninis, Passades, Pitta, Romma, Sausa, Utinadus



That's nice:


"The created Dardanian entity, the subjectivity of pre-Roman Dardania and the long resistance against the Romans, made the Dardanians to evade the complete Romanisation and at the same time to appropriate plenty of elements of Roman provincial culture, and, afterwards, of the early Byzantine on"
 
"The Roman itinerary road Lissus–Naissus–Ratiaria was, as is well-known, a transversal communication across the central Balkans connecting the Adriatic coast and the Danube Basin. Taking into account the maritime route between the Italic port of Brundisium and Lissus, it was the shortest link between the capital of the Empire and the Danubian limes. Namely, the Appian Way led from Rome to Brundisium, and thence ships sailed to the Balkan Peninsula, where an overland route from Lissus continued along the Drim valley and across the highlands of present-day Albania and Serbia (mostly Kosovo and Metohija) to the Niš Basin with the ancient city of Naissus at its centre. From Naissus, the road ran along the Timok river valley, took a northeast turn across Kadibogaz, a pass on Stara Planina (north-western part of the Balkan Mountain range), and ended at Ratiaria, a Roman colony (present-day Archar on the Danube, Bulgaria). In the period of the Empire’s expansion and consolidation of the border on the Danube, the road was predominantly used for military purposes, for the transportation of troops and supplies to the Danubian limes. With the onset of mining activities in Upper Moesia, this important road began to be used for exporting ores and thus assumed economic, i.e. commercial, importance."

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...entury.svg/2000px-Balkans_6th_century.svg.png


http://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=j...g7IFktN-NHjsQV9-BuVPIYQ&bvm=bv.96041959,d.bGg
 
the epicentre of E-V13 belongs to the ancient Dardani
http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-7653/2006/0350-76530637007P.pdf

when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

Sile, yes today is such situation.

But in Middle century was completely different.

You can see Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) 1455 in the Brankovic lands (covering present-day Kosovo):

13.000 Serb dwellings
75 Vlach dwellings
46 Albanian dwellings
17 Bulgarian dwellings
5 Greek dwellings
1 Jewish dwelling
1 Croat dwelling

One century earlier, in 14 century, 86 settlements were Serbian (96.6%) and 3 were Albanian (2%); where there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, from that, 2,122 were Serbs (98%) and 44 were Albanian (2%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo.

Serbs began to left Kosovo first time in Great exodus in time of Ottoman empire, in 1690 and 1737-1739. Austrian and other European forces in war Austria-Turkey, reached Skopje, Serbs fought with Austrians and other European Christians against Ottoman Muslims, but Ottomans won, and lot of Serbs had to go to exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

...
What we Sile don't know?

We don't know which haplogroups had Serbs in the time when they accounted almost entire population of Kosovo. We don't know haplogroups in the time of Dardania. We don't know haplogroups before Dardania, etc.

We know very little. Today situation is recent and it doesn't reflect situation as it was yesterday, the day before yesterday, or further in the past.

...
And this thread is very hard because we have a little valid data. Existence I or E or other haplogroup does not say much. One my Polish friend once told me, it is nonsense that without precise data trying to find the essence, maybe Slavic population from the North carried E-V13, and maybe domestic population had I or R1a or R1b. Because we can see E-V13: 670,670 in Poland, 1,249,220 in Ukraine (1/3 more than all Albanian males) and even 1,753,380 in Russia (2 x more than all Albanian males).

In other words, always among Slavs existed numerous E-V13 population, and theoreticaly it is possible, that one part of E-V13 carriers came with Slavs.

E-V13 are everywhere, in Slavic countries, in Caucasus, in Romania/Moldavia, in Turkey (over 4 million), even in the Western Europe. If we want know more we must know subclades of E-V13, what the more accurately it is better, we must know spatial distribution E-V13 in the past and by epochs, we should try find extinct languages of E-V13 in past etc.
 
Sile, yes today is such situation.

But in Middle century was completely different.

You can see Turkish cadastral tax census (defter) 1455 in the Brankovic lands (covering present-day Kosovo):

13.000 Serb dwellings
75 Vlach dwellings
46 Albanian dwellings
17 Bulgarian dwellings
5 Greek dwellings
1 Jewish dwelling
1 Croat dwelling

One century earlier, in 14 century, 86 settlements were Serbian (96.6%) and 3 were Albanian (2%); where there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, from that, 2,122 were Serbs (98%) and 44 were Albanian (2%).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo.

Serbs began to left Kosovo first time in Great exodus in time of Ottoman empire, in 1690 and 1737-1739. Austrian and other European forces in war Austria-Turkey, reached Skopje, Serbs fought with Austrians and other European Christians against Ottoman Muslims, but Ottomans won, and lot of Serbs had to go to exile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Migrations_of_the_Serbs

...
What we Sile don't know?

We don't know which haplogroups had Serbs in the time when they accounted almost entire population of Kosovo. We don't know haplogroups in the time of Dardania. We don't know haplogroups before Dardania, etc.

We know very little. Today situation is recent and it doesn't reflect situation as it was yesterday, the day before yesterday, or further in the past.

...
And this thread is very hard because we have a little valid data. Existence I or E or other haplogroup does not say much. One my Polish friend once told me, it is nonsense that without precise data trying to find the essence, maybe Slavic population from the North carried E-V13, and maybe domestic population had I or R1a or R1b. Because we can see E-V13: 670,670 in Poland, 1,249,220 in Ukraine (1/3 more than all Albanian males) and even 1,753,380 in Russia (2 x more than all Albanian males).

In other words, always among Slavs existed numerous E-V13 population, and theoreticaly it is possible, that one part of E-V13 carriers came with Slavs.

E-V13 are everywhere, in Slavic countries, in Caucasus, in Romania/Moldavia, in Turkey (over 4 million), even in the Western Europe. If we want know more we must know subclades of E-V13, what the more accurately it is better, we must know spatial distribution E-V13 in the past and by epochs, we should try find extinct languages of E-V13 in past etc.

if you read the paper you will understand that Roman surveyors, Major Roman roads etc went through modern Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc etc, so they knew about the ethnicity , language and customs of the peoples in these areas.
- The Roman system of splitting areas of control within the Roman lands was always based on ethnicity ( +custom and language ) , it was done this way to punish all the people who where the same if they revolted.
see map of the splits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_(Europe)#/media/File:Balkans_6th_century.svg

The borders where changed from time to time as the populace changed ( either via migrations within the empire ( force Roman displacements) or refugees from outside of Roman control.

In regards to E-v13, it was clearly in europe before, slavs, greeks, albanians, italians etc.............I only gave you my scenario on why it is concentrated in kosovo........not because it originated from there , but because it was not diluted there by other markers over time
 
if you read the paper you will understand that Roman surveyors, Major Roman roads etc went through modern Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia etc etc, so they knew about the ethnicity , language and customs of the peoples in these areas.
- The Roman system of splitting areas of control within the Roman lands was always based on ethnicity ( +custom and language ) , it was done this way to punish all the people who where the same if they revolted.
see map of the splits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_(Europe)#/media/File:Balkans_6th_century.svg

The borders where changed from time to time as the populace changed ( either via migrations within the empire ( force Roman displacements) or refugees from outside of Roman control.

In regards to E-v13, it was clearly in europe before, slavs, greeks, albanians, italians etc.............I only gave you my scenario on why it is concentrated in kosovo........not because it originated from there , but because it was not diluted there by other markers over time

Sile, I'm not denying but new findings are needed. What's interesting a lot of Serbs from Kosovo are E-V13. Theoretically maybe main Serbian dynasty Nemanjici were E-V13, who knows, nobody. Today 18% Serbs are E-V13, maybe I'm E-V13, when I do test I will say.

I spoke about interesting these one my Polish friend that part of E-V13 to the Balkans arrived with Slavs. It is possible, who know. Romania and Moldavia have numerous E-V13, some Romanian scientists wrote that Carpi and Costoboci are tribes ancestors of Albanians who came from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania,Moldavia to Albania, from 5th century. We don't know a lot. Therefore new researches will give us more complete picture.
 
What do you think about R1a M458 in Crete ???

Was this brought to Crete by Slavs, or by Achaeans?
 


It is very likely for the Epicentre of E-V13 to be Ancient Dardani, however at much older times Early Neolithic it looks like it was all over (as majority) in South Greece/Peleponese, current Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. then spread by 6,000 ybp to Vinca Culture mid to south Serbia and west Bulgaria.

It might be that in Mid to south Serbia and West Bulgaria the majority was E-V13 since 6,000 to 4,500, then after that it looks like as Maciamo argues Crapathians (I2a R1a) came in at around 3,000 ybp and therefore untill today we have very high % of I2a and R1a at those regions.
It could also be that Maciamo argues that CArpathians actually migrated (straight) and found home in Dalmatia 3,000 ybp, and after that probably as a majority they pushed north east again at current Serbia and Bulgaria around 2,000

I mean people always moved around, however if we see the highest percentages E-V13 in certain locations, the roots are: South Greece, Peloponnese, and Kosovo.


when E-v13 was in most of the balkans/and other parts of Europe , the dardani where the only ones that stayed together to build up over time this high % in Modern Kosovo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani


That might be correct, however what about very high percentages 47% in Peloponnese and South Greece?
 
In regards to E-v13, it was clearly in europe before, slavs, greeks, albanians, italians etc.............I only gave you my scenario on why it is concentrated in kosovo........not because it originated from there , but because it was not diluted there by other markers over time

Dardani population was swept away - first time by Slavs, and second time by Albanians. It was not just diluted, it evaporated.
 
I
Only R1b and R1a could come later. During Bronze Age.

(check above posts) there is a hypothesis that R1b L23 originated in current locations of Macedonia Albania west Bulgaria around 5,000 ybp and they might have migrated to Anatolia founding Hittite empire 4,000 ybp, (it was an post-Yamna), and if we go back more L23 came from Maycop Culture

And as per R1a to Balkans, yes it looks like they are the most recent arrivals in the balkans
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555


If we go further in the past then E-V13 is from Anatolia. But it is most probably a Neolithic time and has no connection to this linguistic issues. Greeks also have E-V13. Armenians also have some E-V13 (6-7%).

As per Maciamo there is no link with E-V13 and Anatolia, (check Maciamo maps) it was at south Greece/Peloponnese since 8,000 ybp.
 
One century earlier, in 14 century, 86 settlements were Serbian (96.6%) and 3 were Albanian (2%); where there were 2,166 livestock households of 2,666 agricultural households, from that, 2,122 were Serbs (98%) and 44 were Albanian (2%).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

In Ottoman time (from 17th century) began colonization Albanian tribes to Kosovo.


OMG, no wonder you looked suspicious from the beginning, there you go you released your Serbian funny propaganda in the end (hahahahah)


2% Albanians in Kosovo OMG, no wonder i suspected that you are one of the brainwashed Serbian Propagandist that argue that Albanians came with Ottomans who were picked as slaves in Caucus area, then in lack of facts said Albanians are Carpi came AD periods, then no Albanians are Berbers ETC, OMG.


No Serbian propaganda please....we talk here ONLY dna and linguistics onlyfrom international scientific papers




Gheg Albanian language (north Albania and Kosova) is actually older than Tosk Albanian, so Albanians in Kosova are actually more ancient than Albanians in the south. (all studies confirm that)


Maciamo (some Ottomas Sultans had R1a and some J2a, we know Ottomans were majority J2a)
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...sty-may-have-belonged-to-haplogroup-R1a-or-J2
http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=13292&langid=42


If Albanians came with Ottomans 17 Century (J2a) how come than Albanians in Kosova have 16% of J2. (also J2 and J1 is clearly much older than ottoman J2a)


Albanians in Kosova have E-V13 47.5% highest in the world (descend from South Greece/Albania 8,000 ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have R1b 21% with L23 majority (descend from Albania, Macedonia 4,000 ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have I1 5.3% (descend from Scandinavia 7,000 ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have I2a2 2.6% (descend from Germany, Scandinavia 7,000 ybp)
Albanians in Kosova have R1a 4.4% (descend from either current north Poland or Carpathian's Moldavia)

Population
--------------------------


Albanians
(Kosovar)
Language
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b
-------


21.10
R1a
-------


4.42
I
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
E-V13
---------


47.37
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
Reference
----------------------


Pericic2005[3]
So from all of the worlds location you have picked (the least by%) Ottomans who have J2a and not even J2 or J1?....Are you really believing that?
I don't blame you, i blame Serbian Propaganda who brainwashed their people since their childhood, we saw the latest when Serbian regime conducted ethnic cleansing to Bosnians and Croatians 1992 then following ethnic cleansing to Albanians in Kosovo 1999 (which their were always more than 90% Albanians)....


some more SCIENCE.....

attachment.php



Bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that Albanian is the red colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage in Balkans then the others at 2550-4335 years ago.


image




Angela
"Slavs" and whatever dna they brought, which would have included EEF/ANE/an WHG, just in different proportions from that of the prior inhabitants, are newcomers to the Balkans, arriving in the last 1200 years or so.
http://www.isabs.hr/registration2013...d_abstract=417


europe.jpg


As per Maciamo noting that !2a1 and R1a Descend from Carpathian's current Moldova and North Romania and that it migrated south pretty late, and as per paper above that we show a very late slavic migration from current north east Poland to Serbia then Serbians (I2a1 + R1a = 65%) came not earlier than 1,200 ybp in current Serbia.

And as Angela said these kind of people (new arrivals) always tended to show Albanians as more foreign as possible, something like Garrick who went from AD periods, to Caucus AD periods, to Carpathians AD Periods to even Berbers LOLLOL


In other words, always among Slavs existed numerous E-V13 population, and theoreticaly it is possible, that one part of E-V13 carriers came with Slavs.

E-V13 came with Slavs?....you mean E-V13 came from the north pole LOL




Here you find more info, Gheg Albanians were even a majority at current south Serbia by 1877, but then pushed more south to current Kosovo
Toplica, Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica valleys and adjoining semi-mountainous interior was inhabited by a compact AlbanianGeg population.[37][38] A mixed Albanian Serbian population also resided in the adjacent Morava river basin.[37] Urban centers such as Kuršumlija were almost wholly Albanian populated and Prokuplje had an Albanian plurality.[37] While Leskovac,Vranje and Niš were inhabited with sizable urban Albanian and partially Turkified Albanian populations, that lived alongside the Serbs.[37]
January 1878 Serb forces continued their south west advance entering other Albanian populated valleys of Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica.[37] Serb forces in the Morava valley continued to head for Vranje, with the intention of then turning west and entering Kosovo proper.[37]
Albanian refugees continued to retreat toward Kosovo and their march was halted at the Goljak Mountains when an armistice was declared.[37]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims
http://balkanologie.revues.org/265

Slavs crossed the Danube and moved into the Balkans by the 6th century. These migrations weakened the Byzantium Empire sufficiently that Illyrian speaking people, known to their neighbors as Albanians moved eastward from the Adriatic into the Kosovo region of the Balkans. Their language became known as Albanian and their culture became allied with Byzantium after the breakup of the Catholic Church into Eastern and western branches in 1054. Slavs migrating into the Balkans divided into three groups; Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, as is still true today. By the 12th century almost all arable land in the region now known as Northern Albania and Kosovo was in Slavic hands.
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~grjan/kosovohistory.html
 
Last edited:
It is very likely for the Epicentre of E-V13 to be Ancient Dardani, however at much older times Early Neolithic it looks like it was all over (as majority) in South Greece/Peleponese, current Albania, Macedonia and Kosovo. then spread by 6,000 ybp to Vinca Culture mid to south Serbia and west Bulgaria.

It might be that in Mid to south Serbia and West Bulgaria the majority was E-V13 since 6,000 to 4,500, then after that it looks like as Maciamo argues Crapathians (I2a R1a) came in at around 3,000 ybp and therefore untill today we have very high % of I2a and R1a at those regions.
It could also be that Maciamo argues that CArpathians actually migrated (straight) and found home in Dalmatia 3,000 ybp, and after that probably as a majority they pushed north east again at current Serbia and Bulgaria around 2,000

I mean people always moved around, however if we see the highest percentages E-V13 in certain locations, the roots are: South Greece, Peloponnese, and Kosovo.





That might be correct, however what about very high percentages 47% in Peloponnese and South Greece?


plz

the high peaks are there,
but seems by possibilities the roots are in Bulgaria,
yet although in E-V13 we play with cross-checking possibilities,
nothing clear and determing, except 'birth' date
 

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