Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

Sile, I'm not denying but new findings are needed. What's interesting a lot of Serbs from Kosovo are E-V13. Theoretically maybe main Serbian dynasty Nemanjici were E-V13, who knows, nobody. Today 18% Serbs are E-V13, maybe I'm E-V13, when I do test I will say.

I spoke about interesting these one my Polish friend that part of E-V13 to the Balkans arrived with Slavs. It is possible, who know. Romania and Moldavia have numerous E-V13, some Romanian scientists wrote that Carpi and Costoboci are tribes ancestors of Albanians who came from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania,Moldavia to Albania, from 5th century. We don't know a lot. Therefore new researches will give us more complete picture.
The thing is that the arival of "Slavs" was never proven,even Marija Gimbutas the author of Kurgan hypothesis,which i consider maybe the most biased in Slavic studies,has said that there is no archeological proves for the migration in the Balkans.And let alone linguistic if we consider that south slavic is older then northern,what you are saying are assumptions bro,but since 20th century that was installed in our school system,which is more of a myth,no oral neither written source for such event in our history,only the Russians have but the migration was opposite direction and i don't know which period.
 
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As per Maciamo noting that !2a1 and R1a Descend from Carpathian's current Moldova and North Romania and that it migrated south pretty late, and as per paper above that we show a very late slavic migration from current north east Poland to Serbia then Serbians (I2a1 + R1a = 65%) came not earlier than 1,200 ybp in current Serbia.

And as Angela said these kind of people (new arrivals) always tended to show Albanians as more foreign as possible, something like Garrick who went from AD periods, to Caucus AD periods, to Carpathians AD Periods to even Berbers LOLLOL
E-V13 came with Slavs?....you mean E-V13 came from the north pole LOL

Here you find more info, Gheg Albanians were even a majority at current south Serbia by 1877, but then pushed more south to current Kosovo
Toplica, Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica valleys and adjoining semi-mountainous interior was inhabited by a compact AlbanianGeg population.[37][38] A mixed Albanian Serbian population also resided in the adjacent Morava river basin.[37] Urban centers such as Kuršumlija were almost wholly Albanian populated and Prokuplje had an Albanian plurality.[37] While Leskovac,Vranje and Niš were inhabited with sizable urban Albanian and partially Turkified Albanian populations, that lived alongside the Serbs.[37]
January 1878 Serb forces continued their south west advance entering other Albanian populated valleys of Kosanica, Pusta Reka and Jablanica.[37] Serb forces in the Morava valley continued to head for Vranje, with the intention of then turning west and entering Kosovo proper.[37]
Albanian refugees continued to retreat toward Kosovo and their march was halted at the Goljak Mountains when an armistice was declared.[37]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims
http://balkanologie.revues.org/265

Slavs crossed the Danube and moved into the Balkans by the 6th century. These migrations weakened the Byzantium Empire sufficiently that Illyrian speaking people, known to their neighbors as Albanians moved eastward from the Adriatic into the Kosovo region of the Balkans. Their language became known as Albanian and their culture became allied with Byzantium after the breakup of the Catholic Church into Eastern and western branches in 1054. Slavs migrating into the Balkans divided into three groups; Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, as is still true today. By the 12th century almost all arable land in the region now known as Northern Albania and Kosovo was in Slavic hands.
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~grjan/kosovohistory.html
Topomyns that you mention show exactly who inhabited that region,even in Albania 50% or more are of Slavic origin regardless you all neighbors change them,Albanians are first mentioned as far 12th century,first alphabet in the 20th century,you should thank the Ottoman Turks and the Muslim faith for which you spread all over the region and on the Christians was made exodus from elsewhere after every rebelion,which 12th century Slavic migration you are talking about,7th century Byzantines armies withdraw from the Balkans,entire was in Slavic dominance,maybe for someone is painful but most of Greece and the Balkans was Slavic speaking until 9th century when Byzantines came back with exception of some coastal cities,bringing people from Asia minor etc,if we didn't had our northern Slavic brethen which have a bit problems finding their origin long ago we could be proclaimed as descendants of Thracians,our language is much more similar unlike Albanian and Illyrians which you claim that have perhaps nothing in common.
 
Zdzisław Skork Polish archeologist writes:
At the time of the Roman Empire, that is, until the mid 5th century, nobody had heard of them. When the Western Empire suddenly collapsed under the siege of German barbarians, they emerged from the dark abyss of Balkan provinces.The Byzantines describe them as people with red hair, but at times also black, as well as a color very similar to the ripe crops of June. A rather tall, but also skinny people, with an audacious gaze.These people wanted to survive in a situation of total threat, and they found a way for this. Survivors typical of a time when nothing was certain and everything was potentially a threat to life,Florin Curta archeologist South-East Europe(Balkans) in research on ancient Slavs, states they are a product of Byzantine intelligentsia,and the product of the fortification of Danube limes and the inflation within the empire, who blended all tribes attacking their provinces into one. According to Curta, it was impossible for the Byzantines to study these societies in more detail, and they invented one word Sclavenes.
 
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OMG, no wonder you looked suspicious from the beginning, there you go you released your Serbian funny propaganda in the end (hahahahah)

Don't be comical, you make mistake, because I don't use Slavic sources. No one source which I gave is Slavic. Even I don't use Serbian sources because they don't use new researches, especially genetic. But what is interesting Russian traditional historical school is totally obsolete. Yes, you can notice I never use sources from Russian school. Never.
...

Nemanjici were Serbian dynasty, Kosovo is Serbian land in Middle age, for example Tzar Stephan Dushan had capital in Prizren, it was Serbian city in that time. Cadastral tax census (defter) from 1455, for which I gave data, is Turkish, not Serbian. About Great migration of Serbs from Kosovo 1690, 1737-1739 wrote western sources, you can find where want. Christian Serbs were in the side with Christian Europe against Muslim Turks and their allies.

Albanians in that time were already converted to Islam. About Islam in Albania one short Muslim source:

http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/albania1.htm

"By 1479, the entire country, except for Durres, Dulcigno and Antivari, was under Ottoman suzerainty. The lenient terms of capitulation required by Islamic law gave Albanians the right to retain their religious beliefs. It was not until the early seventeenth century that Islam began to gain hold in Albania. This is proof in itself that the so-called theories that Islam was forced upon Albanians and other Balkan peoples hold no ground in historical fact. Islam gave them a way to God without the entanglements of intermediaries and without the complex theological doctrines that typified medieval Christianity. Islam also gave Albanians a voice in the administration of not only their own lands but of the whole Ottoman State. Prominent Vizirs and Pashas hailed from Albania, and were appointed to their posts long before the majority of Albanians professed Islam."

This is about religion, of course, I think probably Turks didn't change genetic situation in the Balkans to a significant extent, except in the situations when they expelled the part of populations (Christian people) from the Balkans.

...
Yes I mostly use Western European sources and Anglo-Saxon sources, and of course Greek, Roman, Romanian, Turkish, Armenian, Iranian, North African sources etc. Of course I love authentic sources if I can find them. And today's sources can be international. Team of scientists from different countries of the world participate in scientific projects.

I look to avoid politics when it is possible. But Sile's thesis about Dardania was very interesting and I had to use historical facts. I'm not sure that he is right. Too many soldiers was passing those areas and populations have changed. Of course how Bicicleur, member of the forum says: " The spread of E-V13 is still mystery".
 
if we consider that south slavic is older then northern,what you are saying are assumptions bro,but since 20th century that was installed in our school system,which is more of a myth,no oral neither written source for such event in our history,only the Russians have but the migration was opposite direction and i don't know which period.

You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does Garrick find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that E-V13 was brought by slavs. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.
 
You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does Garrick find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that E-V13 was brought by slavs. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.
There is no older or younger Slavs,language,variant or dialect,like which proves that Slavs moved from North to South? there is no prove,rather 19th century inception which some still follow,Slavs are where they are.
 
Originally Posted by Милан М.
even in Albania 50% or more are of Slavic origin

I woudnt say so (check the threads above) Albanians have very low R1a and I2a1 (which are considered slavic) especially Gheg Albanian.

Gegh Albanian have only 4.4% R1a and I1 4.3% and I2a2 2.6% (roots are Germany Scandinavia) and I2a1 is Slavic north Carpathians

So slavic is only 4.4% to Gegh Albanians

640px-Albanian_dialects.svg.png




first alphabet in the 20th century,you should thank the Ottoman Turks and the Muslim faith for which you spread all over the region and on the Christians was made exodus from elsewhere after every rebelion,

surviving documents written in Albanian are the "formula e pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula), Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spertit Senit. ("I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit") recorded by Pal Engjelli, Bishop of Durrës in 1462 in the Gheg dialect. (found in Vatican) All Albaniains before Ottomans were majority Roman Catholics and Pagans then later some orthodox and Islam.


which 12th century Slavic migration you are talking about,7th century Byzantines armies withdraw from the Balkans,entire was in Slavic dominance,maybe for someone is painful but most of Greece and the Balkans was Slavic speaking until 9th century when Byzantines came back with exception of some coastal cities,bringing people from Asia minor etc,

You mean they might have been colonized by north Slavs because Greeks nor Albanians nor Macedonians nor Bulgarians were never slavic as a majority.


  • 1000BC: Slavs settle by the Dnieprs river - Today Ukraine
  • 558 AD: defeated by the Avars the Slavs move east from the Russian steppes
  • 575: the East Slavs inhabit western Russia, the South Slavs inhabit the Balkan peninsula, the West Slavs inhabit Poland, Czechoslovakia and Prussia
  • 582: South Slavs settle near Salonika ("Servia") under tsar Heraclius
  • 584: South Slavs mix with Bulgars
  • 612: South Slavs invade Greece and reach Thessalonica
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/slavs.html


serbia_1915.jpg

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/serbia_1915.htm




You can see how Slavs reached south west Romania and far north Serbia by 1100 and then pushed more south by around 1500
 
You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does Garrick find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that E-V13 was brought by slavs. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.

Do not make confusion. Different populations may carry E-V13, it's clearly because it is everywhere in Turkey, Lebanon, Caucasus, Eastern Europe, Southeast of Europe, in Italy, Spain, in the West of Europe and others.

It said as criticism of your insistence that all E-V13 connect with Albanians, and we know that only 3.48% of E-V13 population in Europe and Turkey belongs to Albanians.
 
So slavic is only 4.4% to Gegh Albanians

Again you one haplogroup (R1a) equating with Slavs. It is nonsense. Not all Slavic people are R1a, not all R1a are Slavic. I told you that Slavic people could carry E-V13, and other haplogroups, and in the Balkans R1a could be from Thracians, Dacians, Minoans?, etc.

You can see how Slavs reached south west Romania and far north Serbia by 1100 and then pushed more south by around 1500

Then Serbs have nothing with Slavs. First known monarch of Serbian lands in the Balkans by name was Prince Viseslav (fl. 768–814). Of course Serbian lands existed earlier but there are disagreements between scientists about their rulers.

But if (according some Romanian scientists) Carpi and Costoboci came to Albania from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania and Moldavia, maybe Albanians and Slavs came together. Hm?

dacia-romana-in-secolele-ii-iii-d-c.jpg


Carpi and Costoboci, if they were Dacian, Scythian or Albanian?
 
But if (according some Romanian scientists) Carpi and Costoboci came to Albania from Carpathian mountains, Eastern Romania and Moldavia, maybe Albanians and Slavs came together. Hm?

I think that Albanian and Slavic was in the Balkans prior to Romans conquest and earlier,but don't know which region,you can't just trace Slavic as modern(Serbo-Croat,Bulgarian) what about the archaic form Balto-Slavic which many words we still keep,languages developed trough time,most of the settlements,words are explainable and some identical especially Thracian.
 
the majority of Serbs are from ancient Triballi Thracians and some Moesian people. Even the serbian government has noted this.
They E-v13 would also be part of these triballi

[h=3]Exonym of Serbs[/h] The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.[13][14][15][16][17] Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[18][19][20][21][22] For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[25]



The Seal of the Serbian Parliament, 1805.


In the 15th century, a coat of arms of "Tribalia", depicting a wild boar with an arrow pierced through the head (see Boars in heraldry), appeared in the supposed Coat of Arms of Emperor Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' (r. 1331–1355).[26] The motif had, in 1415, been used as the Coat of Arms of the Serbian Despotate and is recalled in one of Stefan Lazarević's personal Seals, according to the paper Сабор у Констанци.[27] Pavao Ritter Vitezović also depicts "Triballia" with the same motif in 1701[28] and Hristofor Zhefarovich again in 1741.[29] With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.[30]
 
the majority of Serbs are from ancient Triballi Thracians and some Moesian people. Even the serbian government has noted this.
They E-v13 would also be part of these triballi

Exonym of Serbs

The term "Triballians" appears frequently in Byzantine and other European works of the Middle Ages, referring exclusively to Serbs.[13][14][15][16][17] Some of these authors clearly explain that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian".[18][19][20][21][22] For example, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155–1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[23] or the much later Demetrios Chalkondyles (1423–1511), referring to an Islamized Christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[24] or Mehmed the Conqueror when referring to the plundering of Serbia.[25]



The Seal of the Serbian Parliament, 1805.


In the 15th century, a coat of arms of "Tribalia", depicting a wild boar with an arrow pierced through the head (see Boars in heraldry), appeared in the supposed Coat of Arms of Emperor Stefan Dušan 'the Mighty' (r. 1331–1355).[26] The motif had, in 1415, been used as the Coat of Arms of the Serbian Despotate and is recalled in one of Stefan Lazarević's personal Seals, according to the paper Сабор у Констанци.[27] Pavao Ritter Vitezović also depicts "Triballia" with the same motif in 1701[28] and Hristofor Zhefarovich again in 1741.[29] With the beginning of the First Serbian Uprising, the Parliament adopted the Serbian Coat of Arms in 1805, their official seal depicted the heraldic emblems of Serbia and Tribalia.[30]

I do agree with that,
Serb fathers are
ancient Triballi, and around Thracian tribes and population Dinaric,Moesian, Pannoni
Roman-Celtic dwellers, like Scordisci could left some population, or Flavians in Nis
Sorbs as Slavic newcomers from North with some Avaric allies possible.
 
I do agree with that,
Serb fathers are
ancient Triballi, and around Thracian tribes and population Dinaric,Moesian, Pannoni
Roman-Celtic dwellers, like Scordisci could left some population, or Flavians in Nis
Sorbs as Slavic newcomers from North with some Avaric allies possible.
Serbinum was recorded in present day Bosnia by Ptolemy and other authors which perhaps derrive it's name from the Sarmatian tribe Serboi and we don't know how Tribalians called themselves,The Triballi were a Thracian tribe that received influences from Celts, Scythians and Illyrians.So they could take the name from this people,the name Serb is most probably Sarmatian or Schyntian,In his Roman History (ca. 200 AD), Cassius Dio adds: In ancient times, it is true, Moesians and Getae occupied all the land between Haemus and the Ister; but as time went on some of them changed their names, and since then there have been included under the name of Moesia all the tribes living above Dalmatia, Macedonia, and Thrace, and separated from Pannonia by theSavus, a tributary of the Ister. Two of the many tribes found among them are those formerly called the Triballi, and the Dardani, who still retain their old name.So he say that Triballi already changed their name.
 
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OMG, no wonder you looked suspicious from the beginning, there you go you released your Serbian funny propaganda in the end (hahahahah)

2% Albanians in Kosovo OMG, no wonder i suspected that you are one of the brainwashed Serbian Propagandist that argue that Albanians came with Ottomans who were picked as slaves in Caucus area, then in lack of facts said Albanians are Carpi came AD periods, then no Albanians are Berbers ETC, OMG.

No Serbian propaganda please....we talk here ONLY dna and linguistics onlyfrom international scientific papers

You should stick to the facts and stop poisoning this thread. There was no Albanians on Kosovo 1000 years ago.
 
no wonder i suspected that you are one of the brainwashed Serbian Propagandist that argue that Albanians came with Ottomans who were picked as slaves in Caucus area, then in lack of facts said Albanians are Carpi came AD periods, then no Albanians are Berbers ETC, OMG.

Why do you impute me what I did not speak. I never argued that Albanians came with Turks as slaves in Caucasus area.

My opinion about movement speakers of Proto Albanians from Caucasus, area around Black sea, Ukrainian steppes, to Moldavia and Romania nothing do what you talking about.

And it has evolved, some members of forum (different nationality, no one is Slavic) helped me to develop thoughts.

You can see what I wrote two years before:

It means that based in haplogroups and another things we can fairly precisely to locate place in Romania or somewhere in region from which Albanian came to the south Adriatic coast and nearby mountains.
...

Then I did not know that some Romanian scientists wrote about tribes Carpi and Costoboci moved from their locations in Romania, Moldavia, SouthWestern Ukraine to Albania. I thank my Romanian friends for these information.
...

For Berber language I told more time, I like discover where are extinct languages, E-V13 haplogroup and I (I1, I2) haplogroup. It is possible that some words from AfroAsiatic languages saved in Albanian. Yes, Albanian is IE language, Proto Albanian probably was the closest to Proto Armenian and foreruners of West and North Iranian languages. I think, probably haplogroup R1b ht35 played central role in creating of Proto Albanian. But E-V13 carriers could give the contribution.

Why Berber as Afro Asiatic language, but no Coptic or Egyptian language, how some Albanian intellectuals wrote. Because I had my African friends who give me Berber words, I could not find Copts or appropriate dictionary of Coptic words.
...

You are right, all the studies confirm that "slavs" moved from north to south, i don't have an idea where does Garrick find those myths thats Slavs are older in the south than north, he even mentions that E-V13 was brought by slavs. It makes no sense to represent him the studies as he is not interested to learn.

You did not understand him. He critiqued me just because I told that maybe Slavs (with Albanians) came from Carpathian mountains to the Balkans. I told as irony but his critique may be in place.

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I cannot believe what confuse you. In every Slavic country exist significant E-V13. If Slavs came from North to South they brought some E-V13, it is logical, it would be illogical if someone thinks vice versa.
...
You can see here that some members think that Tribali and other tribes Thracian etc. are Serbian. It is possible, for this historical sources exist.
 
Again you one haplogroup (R1a) equating with Slavs. It is nonsense. Not all Slavic people are R1a, not all R1a are Slavic. I told you that Slavic people could carry E-V13, and other haplogroups, and in the Balkans R1a could be from Thracians, Dacians, Minoans?, etc.

Of course not (as said before everyone is mixed, we have to talk with percentages)
Maciamo argues Carpathian's Dacian's Thracians belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a.

So R1a and I2a1 = 60%..........Gheg Albanians on both R1a I2a1 = 4.4% (Carpathian Dacian Thracian)


And he argues as primarily (so majority) Slavic are R1a M458 (root Poland) and I2a1 (root Ukraine) ..........Gheg Albanian 4.4% (Slavic)


10801618_877863175579140_4612708293015802980_n.png



Maciamo
The ancient Slavs
Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2


Then Serbs have nothing with Slavs. First known monarch of Serbian lands in the Balkans by name was Prince Viseslav (fl. 768–814). Of course Serbian lands existed earlier but there are disagreements between scientists about their rulers.


AS per Maciamo, it would look like this, Serbs descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... so 63% Slavic

Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.
 
Serbinum was recorded in present day Bosnia by Ptolemy and other authors which perhaps derrive it's name from the Sarmatian tribe Serboi and we don't know how Tribalians called themselves,The Triballi were a Thracian tribe


This might Correlate with Maciamo arguing that I2a1 migrated to around Dalmatia 3,000 ybp from Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (West Ukraine, Moldova, north east Romania), so Sarmatian were around Ukraine....
and Serbs have very high !2a1 48%,
 
AS per Maciamo, it would look like this, Serbs descend from I2a1 48% and 15% R1a..... so 63% Slavic

Gheg Albanians are 4.4% Slavic, this is the difference and this is what you don't understand for whatever reason.

You gave wrong dates:

You can see how Slavs reached south west Romania and far north Serbia by 1100 and then pushed more south by around 1500

Of course I was ironic when you made mistake in the centuries. Nothing offensive, everyone can make errors, but look at data.

Now, you give wrong percents. Serbs have no 48% I2a1 (it would be nice).
 
The thing is that the arival of "Slavs" was never proven,even Marija Gimbutas the author of Kurgan hypothesis,which i consider maybe the most biased in Slavic studies,has said that there is no archeological proves for the migration in the Balkans.And let alone linguistic if we consider that south slavic is older then northern,what you are saying are assumptions bro,but since 20th century that was installed in our school system,which is more of a myth,no oral neither written source for such event in our history,only the Russians have but the migration was opposite direction and i don't know which period.


Your thoughts are fresh. Reputation. Of course you can be right, perhaps traditional schools sow things incorrect, many people doubt it, and can you get some data.
 

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