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Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And why do you "think" that?? The main rule in genetic genealogy is to follow the TMRCA estimates and basal diversity. If you cannot comprehend that rule then you shouldn't "think" about anything related to the expansion of haplogroups. The main expansion of E-V13 couldn't have happened "much longet time ago", because it happened at this time based on genetic evidence.



    But it is.



    Because the TMRCA of all current existent E-V13 lineages is lower.



    It carried few in a 1000 or none.



    Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..

    Look dude, you clearly have some strong desire to push the spread of E-V13 into the Neolithic so you can turn the V13 into "Pelasgian slaves" like it was postulated 10/15 years ago. But they spread in BA so they must have been some dominators, whatever it was. And I know thats something you can't stand, cause you're "supposed" to be some dominator right, not those "despicable E's" right?? You descend from a bottleneck of a couple thousands of years, and you weren't dominating anything for a long time before your 6th century expansion..
    Are there people seriously arguing Pelasgians were "slaves"? WTF

    I don't know if V13 had anything to do with Pelasgians, and I slightly doubt so.
    But being related to Pelasgians surely is something to be proud of, like how do people even infer who were slaves to whom? I don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..
    Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.
    Ancient Greeks surely liked using blanket terms to group foreign people that might not even have been related... Illyrians, Thracians, Barbarians just off the top of my head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Are there people seriously arguing Pelasgians were "slaves"? WTF

    I don't know if V13 had anything to do with Pelasgians, and I slightly doubt so.
    But being related to Pelasgians surely is something to be proud of, like how do people even infer who were slaves to whom? I don't get it.
    Complete nonsense. Some people seem unaware that the ancient dna revolution ever happened and keep arguing based on totally discounted ancient myths.

    Whatever the Greeks meant by the term in particular areas, they were the "original" or at least "prior" inhabitants, and their dna is in everyone in those regions, and it probably accounts for more of their dna than anything which came later.

    It's like that old nonsense about Albanians being descended from Ottoman Turks which I was constantly combatting.

    If people want to live as if the fairy tales they were told are true they will whether the science refutes it or not, I guess.


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    Pre Ancient Greeks were likely J2a, G2 and T.
    Any idea on I2a2?
    E-V13 might have arrived with Dorians, but it is wierd that it is low in Calabaria (which was mostly Doric) compared to J2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Pre Ancient Greeks were likely J2a, G2 and T.
    Any idea on I2a2?
    E-V13 might have arrived with Dorians, but it is wierd that it is low in Calabaria (which was mostly Doric) compared to J2a.
    I agree with those three, but I don't think we have enough samples from Greece, or Albania, for that matter, to know if E-V13 was also present.

    We're inundated with every hut or cart dweller's dna from the steppe, and this paucity in Greece and Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Are there people seriously arguing Pelasgians were "slaves"? WTF

    I don't know if V13 had anything to do with Pelasgians, and I slightly doubt so.
    But being related to Pelasgians surely is something to be proud of, like how do people even infer who were slaves to whom? I don't get it.
    This is some decade old perception that anything other than Steppe invader means "being a slave". And ofc this status is reserved for "the special ones".. Polako's blonde cowboys, pow, pow, pow . Some Slavic Z280 clade.. For ex. these Corded Ware's having expanded into their areas soon got sedentized, lost IE way of life, mixing with EHG's etc. So ancestors of most of these were no IE nomads.. No horse riding for many of them for 4500+ years..

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.


    True, the only reasonably reliable trace are the Lemnians, and even there archaeological evidence is unclear, some Mycenaean like population being among the most likely options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree with those three, but I don't think we have enough samples from Greece, or Albania, for that matter, to know if E-V13 was also present.

    We're inundated with every hut or cart dweller's dna from the steppe, and this paucity in Greece and Italy.

    I often wonder why we lack old samples from the Balkans and Anatolia for that matter. Is there no interest in excavating and analyzing or was cremation a major factor?

    It is a pity really, given that Balkans is a stepping stone for a lot of peoples and cultures. I am sure if we had more samples a lot would be clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And why do you "think" that?? The main rule in genetic genealogy is to follow the TMRCA estimates and basal diversity. If you cannot comprehend that rule then you shouldn't "think" about anything related to the expansion of haplogroups. The main expansion of E-V13 couldn't have happened "much longet time ago", because it happened at this time based on genetic evidence.

    But it is.

    Because the TMRCA of all current existent E-V13 lineages is lower.

    It carried few in a 1000 or none.

    Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..

    Look dude, you clearly have some strong desire to push the spread of E-V13 into the Neolithic so you can turn the V13 into "Pelasgian slaves" like it was postulated 10/15 years ago. But they spread in BA so they must have been some dominators, whatever it was. And I know thats something you can't stand, cause you're "supposed" to be some dominator right, not those "despicable E's" right?? You descend from a bottleneck of a couple thousands of years, and you weren't dominating anything for a long time before your 6th century expansion..
    Pelasgians descend from Etruscans or the other way? The Etruscan civilization was at its height c. 500 BC, where Homer mentioned Pelasgians before ancient greeks

    You seem to misunderstang my point for unknown reason, I always mean in proportions and percentages because people moved always so its very hard to know exactly therefore we can guess or suppose, or at least have the right to do so.

    Also I dont have to add anything more than the other post (see below) from other link, also you called me dumb and I thing administator has to ban you about it, or at least dont post on my thread please, you have no rights for that at all.


    Originally Posted by Aspurg
    You clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about. E-V13 expansion happened in Early Bronze Age. Vinca culture ended in 4200 BC.. That's a 1300 year gap. How dumb you have to be not to comprehend that??



    Wow wow wow, how dumb am I? ADMINISTRATOR please BAN this individual, no one has the right here to call someone dumb, especially when I argue that it is a supposition.

    Dude you clearly have some kind of a problem, I am also not talking about huge expansions here, but small numbers, if we found 6000 BC e-v13 in Spain other in Split Croatia 5485 BC then what is wrong having this group in Vinca 4000 BC?
    Again my supposition 'I never said E-V13 was the main carrier of the neolithic revolution, was talking about a later time or in smaller numbers, so in one word they came from far north Africa through Iberia Itali Greece, in around 6000 BC, gathered more in around Vinca, of course not as majority but with other G2, H2, then after 5000 BC it spread more in south Balkans, so this is pre ancient Greece as we know it started from 3000 BC, so by that time the so called Pelasgic people could have carried around 40% of this area of south east Balkans including central north Balkans, thats why maybe this region still have the highest % of E-V13, of course this is all supposition, and we need more ancient samples in this region.'



    Originally Posted by Aspurg
    I read it, E-L618 was a Cardial lineage it arrived from the Levant most likely, from PPNB, there is no evidence it arrived from North Africa directly.



    And what evidence do you have it came from Levant? or it is as you say most likely!



    Originally Posted by Aspurg
    E-V13 has nothing to do with G2a. G2a receded at the same time E-V13 exploded. There is so much R1a in India.. So R1a must originate in India too..



    Again, who said G2a has to do with E-V13? I dont think there was only G2a or even H2 at that time, we only have very very few samples, again if we have E-V13 in Spain 6000 BC then why not in Vinca 4000 BC!




    Originally Posted by Aspurg
    Some cognitive issues? You quote citation where it says there are three tested and you mention two tested. By the same "logic" we require thousands of samples from a single site. You you the same logic as Serbian autochtonists who claim that Iron Gates require sample of thousands of tested to be sure I2a Din is not there.. For the start there aren't that many skeletons..



    Again, looks like you do have some problem with anyone supposing somthing else you argue, chill out dude, In a 2017 genetic study published in Nature, the remains of six individuals ascribed to the Vinča culture was analyzed. Of the three samples of Y-DNA extracted, one belonged to G2a2b2a1a, one belonged to G2a2a, and one belonged to H2.

    I SAID You can never conclude or generalize that all Vincas were G2a from only 2 samples G2a found, the other one is H2, lol chill out



    Originally Posted by Aspurg
    Instead you choose to take this old path of "E-V13 SSA slaves", well I explained it to you it's no SSA and it's no slaves either. E-V13 used tumulii burial from early on, and it doesn't matter what was the exact cultural affinity.

    Get off your high horse "I'm R1b look at me I'm so special lol", so you seem to have problem with V13 being part of some "dominator" group. Well, continue having this problem..



    I never took the old path nor slaves, I was actually giving higher point to E-V13, again lol you seem to take my supposions in negative way and all wrong, I said ''So I think my suposition might have some relevance, that Pelasgic people (maybe around 50% E-V13) might have migrated from Vinca (and not only, so too from Dalmatia, Hungary, south Germany, maybe even in very small groups from Levant also) to more south eastern Balkans around 5000 BC, before ancient Greece, at this time yes we might have had some G2 and H2, maybe very few R1b and J2, then maybe with Ancient Greece there was a flood of migration, and maybe some more soffisticated individuals like R1b (sophisticated I mean maybe more colonist alike and who brought EI) who came from Yamnaya, I really dont see at 5000 BC as a majority in this area with R1b or J2, I think majority was G2, H2 and E-V13, only with the flood of Ancient Greece at 3000 BC we see a lot of R1b and maybe some J2.''

    So see, even if I am R1b I suppose that E-V13 is more old in the balkans area and in today Europe



    Originally Posted by Aspurg
    How were R1b's more sophisticated in any way compared to EEF's??

    Their culture is considered by the archaeologists to have been at the lower level than the Neolithic Europe..



    Sophisticated I mean maybe more colonist alike and who might have brought IE, so again chill dude

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Archaeologically Pelasgians simply do not exist. Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations.
    I would like to elaborate here more from you, and as this thread is about Pelasgians then we should dwell more into Pelasg and possible E-V13.

    Can you share references for ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''?


    I believe there are many books about Pelasgians which i havent read yet, anyone has to share here anything would really appreciate.


    This is what I find from some references, as far as I can see I dont see anywhere where it is a term used to several different populations

    The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒ(i)ənz, -ɡiənz/; Ancient Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by classical Greek writers to refer either to the ancestors or forerunners of the Greeks,[1][2] or to all inhabitants of Greece before the emergence or arrival of Greeks aware of their Greekness. In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[3]"Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", though some ancient writers nonetheless described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts fell largely, though far from exclusively, within the territory which by the 5th century BC was inhabited by those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians and Aeolians.[4]

    An ancient etymology based on mere similarity of sounds linked pelasgos to pelargos ("stork") and postulates that the Pelasgians were migrants like storks, possibly from Egypt (this is why I suppose and link Pelasgians with high E-V13)

    Gilbert Murray summarized the derivation from pelas gē ("neighboring land")

    Julius Pokorny derived Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi ("flatland-inhabitants"); specifically "inhabitants of the Thessalian plain".[9]

    Klein argued that the ancient Greek word for "sea", pelagos and the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat) shared the same root, *plāk-, and that *pelag-skoi therefore meant "the sea men", where the sea is flat.[11]

    The Pelasgians first appear in the poems of Homer: those who are stated to be Pelasgians in the Iliad are among the allies of Troy. In the section known as the Catalogue of Trojans,
    they are mentioned between mentions of the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-eastern Europe (i.e., on the Hellespontine border of Thrace).[14] Homer calls their town or district "Larisa"[15] and characterises it as fertile,
    and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus, thus giving all of them names that were Greek or so thoroughly Hellenized that any foreign element has been effaced.

    The Iliad also refers to "Pelasgic Argos",[18] which is most likely to be the plain of Thessaly,[19] and to "Pelasgic Zeus", living in and ruling over Dodona,[20] which must be the oracular one in Epirus.According to the Iliad, Pelasgians were camping out on the shore together with the following tribes,
    Towards the sea lie the Carians and the Paeonians, with curved bows, and the Leleges and Caucones, and the goodly Pelasgi.[21]

    Asius of Samos (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[24]

    In a lost play by Aeschylus, Danaan Women, he defines the original homeland of the Pelasgians as the region around Mycenae.[30]

    The Roman poet Ovid describes the Greeks of the Trojan War as Pelasgians in his Metamorphoses:[34]

    A second fragment states that Pelasgus was the son of Zeus and Niobe and that his son Lycaon founded a dynasty of kings of Arcadia.[36]

    A fragment from the writings of Acusilaus asserts that the Peloponnesians were called "Pelasgians" after Pelasgus, a son of Zeus and Niobe.[37]

    During Nanas's reign, the Pelasgians were driven out by the Greeks and departed for Italy. They landed at the mouth of the Po River, near the Etruscan city of Spina,
    then took the inland city "Crotona" (
    Κρότωνα), and from there colonized Tyrrhenia. The inference is that Hellanicus believed the Pelasgians of Thessaly (and indirectly of the Peloponnese) to have been the ancestors of the Etruscans.[40]@aspurg you might be right that Etruscans might have taken some of the Pelasgian language.

    Herodotus ambivalently classified the Pelasgian language as "barbarian" and discussed various areas inhabited (or previously inhabited) by Pelasgians/Pelasgian-speakers along with their different neighbors/co-residents:[42]
    [43]

    I am unable to state with certainty what language the Pelasgians spoke, but we could consider the speech of the Pelasgians who still exist in settlements above Tyrrhenia in the city of Kreston,
    formerly neighbors to the Dorians who at that time lived in the land now called Thessaliotis; also the Pelasgians who once lived with the Athenians and then settled Plakia and Skylake in the Hellespont; and along with those who
    lived with all the other communities and were once Pelasgian but changed their names. If one can judge by this evidence, the Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language.

    And so, if the Pelasgian language was spoken in all these places, the people of Attica being originally Pelasgian, must have learned a new language when they became Hellenes.
    Herodotus discussed the relationship between the Pelasgians and the Hellenes,[44][45] which, according to Pericles Georges, reflected the "rivalry within Greece itself between [...] Dorian Sparta and Ionian Athens."[46]

    Herodotus stated that the entire territory of Greece (i.e., Hellas) was initially called "Pelasgia".[50]

    Moreover, Herodotus mentioned that the Aegean islanders "were a Pelasgian race, who in later times took the name Ionians" and that the Aeolians, according to the Hellenes, were known anciently as "Pelasgians."
    [57]

    In his Description of Greece, Pausanias mentions the Arcadians who state that Pelasgus (along with his followers) was the first inhabitant of their land.[67] Upon becoming king, Pelasgus invented huts, sheep-skin coats,
    and a diet consisting of acorns while governing the land named after him, "Pelasgia".[68] When Arcas became king, Pelasgia was renamed "Arcadia" and its inhabitants (the Pelasgians) were renamed "Arcadians".[69]


    Strabo As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.

    He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus" and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule.
    He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, "Agylla".
    Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.[72]


    Archaeology

    During the early 20th century, archaeological excavations conducted by the Italian Archaeological School and by the American Classical School on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites within Attica revealed Neolithic dwellings,
    tools, pottery and skeletons from domesticated animals (i.e., sheep, fish). All of these discoveries showed significant resemblances to the Neolithic discoveries made on the Thessalian acropolises of
    Sesklo and Dimini.
    These discoveries help provide physical confirmation of the literary tradition that describes the Athenians as the descendants of the Pelasgians, who appear to descend continuously from the Neolithic inhabitants in Thessaly.
    Overall, the archaeological evidence indicates that the site of the Acropolis was inhabited by farmers as early as the 6th millennium BC
    .
    [93][Note 1]

    In August and September 1926, members of the Italian School of Archaeology conducted trial excavations on the island of Lemnos. A short account of their excavations appeared in the Messager d'Athénes for 3 January 1927.
    The overall purpose of the excavations was to shed light on the island's "Etrusco-Pelasgian" civilization. The excavations were conducted on the site of the city of Hephaisteia (i.e., Palaiopolis) where the Pelasgians, according to Herodotus,
    surrendered to Miltiades of Athens. There, a necropolis (c. 9th-8th centuries BC) was discovered revealing bronze objects, pots, and more than 130 ossuaries. The ossuaries contained distinctly male and female funeral ornaments.
    Male ossuaries contained knives and axes whereas female ossuaries contained earrings, bronze pins, necklaces, gold diadems, and bracelets. The decorations on some of the gold objects contained spirals of Mycenean origin,
    but had no Geometric forms. According to their ornamentation, the pots discovered at the site were from the Geometric period. However, the pots also preserved spirals indicative of Mycenean art. The results of the excavations
    indicate that the Early Iron Age inhabitants of Lemnos could be a remnant of a Mycenaean population and, in addition, the earliest attested reference to Lemnos is the Mycenaean Greek
    ra-mi-ni-ja, "Lemnian woman", written in Linear B syllabic script.[95][96][Note 2]


    During the 1980s, the Skourta Plain Project identified Middle Helladic and Late Helladic sites on mountain summits near the plains of Skourta in Boeotia. These fortified mountain settlements were, according to tradition,
    inhabited by Pelasgians up until the end of the
    Bronze Age. Moreover, the location of the sites is an indication that the Pelasgian inhabitants sought to distinguish themselves "ethnically" (a fluid term[97]) and economically from the Mycenaean Greeks who controlled the Skourta Plain.[98][Note 3]




    Angela so from all these references I dont see anything like ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    I would like to elaborate here more from you, and as this thread is about Pelasgians then we should dwell more into Pelasg and possible E-V13.

    Can you share references for ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''?


    I believe there are many books about Pelasgians which i havent read yet, anyone has to share here anything would really appreciate.


    This is what I find from some references, as far as I can see I dont see anywhere where it is a term used to several different populations

    Elaborate what? Based on a copy and paste from Wikipedia?

    Where are the archaeological remains of Pelasgians? If you do not answer my question, I will not waste any more time in this discussion with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Wow wow wow, how dumb am I? ADMINISTRATOR please BAN this individual, no one has the right here to call someone dumb, especially when I argue that it is a supposition.

    So per you E-V13 expanded from Vinca culture which ended 4200 BC. Ended 4200 BC means no one would have expanded with Vinca at time time but earlier.. One expands with a flourishing culture and Vinca expanded 5500 BC. Ancestor of all E-V13 lived 2900 BC. Major expansions started 2300 BC. Besides Vinca culture belong to a different archaeological complex unrelated to Cardials which seems clearly connected with E-L618. No no wonder out of 3 tested none were E-V13..


    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    An ancient etymology based on mere similarity of sounds linked pelasgos to pelargos ("stork") and postulates that the Pelasgians were migrants like storks, possibly from Egypt (this is why I suppose and link Pelasgians with high E-V13)

    Strabo is not a source when it comes to linguistics. In linguistics it is unacceptable to construct etymologies based on a "mere similarity" of sounds..
    So because you accepted this ridiculous etymology from an unqualified source (which Strabo is for linguistics) because he had connected the Pelasgians with Egypt in order for your to connect the E-V13 with the arrival from Egypt..


    From a genetic point of view E-V13's distant relatives were among the proto-Egyptians, such as V22, V12, but V13 separated fro mthese 12 000 years ago. First archaeological traces of Egypt are 8000 years old, and E-V13 and it's parent clade were found at that time in Europe. It is clear E-V13 had nothing to do with the Ancient Egypt.


    Not only for you is 5500 BC and 2300 BC the same thing but also for you the Y-DNA branches which separated 12000 years ago are also the same..

    Ancient Egypt and Vinca?? So according to you Vincans were descended from Egypt?? Did I misinterpret something?? You clearly said Vincans were heavy with E-V13 and ultimately the main reason why these people are Pelasgians is because pelasgos was "related" to pelargos "strok" which in turn means the Pelargoans "could have" migrated from Egypt.. So Vincans are from Egypt indeed..


    And you are "offended" by something??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Elaborate what? Based on a copy and paste from Wikipedia?

    Where are the archaeological remains of Pelasgians? If you do not answer my question, I will not waste any more time in this discussion with you.
    Read the Archeology part above, I dont want to copy paste here again, it might not be much however as they were called Barbarian they might have not been the masters of buildings objects etc but there is a link as it is said on the sources!


    Nevertheles the findings in short "on the Athenian Acropolis and on other sites within Attica revealed Neolithic dwellings, tools, pottery and skeletons from domesticated animals (i.e., sheep, fish). All of these discoveries showed significant resemblances to the Neolithic discoveries made on the Thessalian acropolises of Sesklo and Dimini. These discoveries help provide physical confirmation of the literary tradition that describes the Athenians as the descendants of the Pelasgians, who appear to descend continuously from the Neolithic inhabitants in Thessaly.
    Overall, the archaeological evidence indicates that the site of the Acropolis was inhabited by farmers as early as the 6th millennium BC.
    [93][Note 1]

    In August and September 1926, members of the Italian School of Archaeology conducted trial excavations on the island of Lemnos. A short account of their excavations appeared in the Messager d'Athénes for 3 January 1927.
    The overall purpose of the excavations was to shed light on the island's "Etrusco-Pelasgian" civilization. The excavations were conducted on the site of the city of Hephaisteia (i.e., Palaiopolis) where the Pelasgians, according to Herodotus,
    surrendered to Miltiades of Athens
    . There, a necropolis (c. 9th-8th centuries BC) was discovered revealing bronze objects, pots, and more than 130 ossuaries. The ossuaries contained distinctly male and female funeral ornaments.
    Male ossuaries contained knives and axes whereas female ossuaries contained earrings, bronze pins, necklaces, gold diadems, and bracelets.


    During the 1980s, the Skourta Plain Project identified Middle Helladic and Late Helladic sites on mountain summits near the plains of Skourta in Boeotia. These fortified mountain settlements were, according to tradition,
    inhabited by Pelasgians up until the end of the
    Bronze Age. Moreover, the location of the sites is an indication that the Pelasgian inhabitants sought to distinguish themselves "ethnically" (a fluid term[97]) and economically from the Mycenaean Greeks who controlled the Skourta Plain.

    Who were the ‘Pelasgians’ archaeologically?
    Herodotus mentioned Pelasgian building activity which might be linked with the Early Helladic II period.

    Lerna was the capital of the Peloponnesian proto-state in Early Bronze Age II Greece. A single ruler[1] of the chiefdom[2], lived in the palace (House of Tiles)[3] and used seals as a sign of prestige or/and social standing[4] at the Early Helladic II Lerna. He might be a ‘Pelasgian king’ of Pelasgian capital.
    Thus the Lerna proto-state was formed under the Greek influence (Anatolian-related Lefkandi I culture) on the ‘Pelasgian’ Early Helladic II culture. The Ezero culture was common source of Troy I–II and Middle Minoan I Crete.


    The ‘Pelasgian’ language as a satem substrate in Greek is a great enigma. This language or a dialectal group/koine might be close to Thracian, Albanian, or Armenian (see special issue below).
    However, the origin of the Greek language was a difficult enigma for archaeologists during many decades. The scholars attempted to identify archaeological cultures of common Paleo-Balkan language, its Greek ancestor and other related languages of the group.

    Mythical ‘Pelasgians’ might be linguistic Paleo-Balkans, i. e. non-Greek peoples (Phrygians, Thracians, Albanians) but close relatives of the Greeks.

    First of all, an ancient idea of Pelasgian-Etruscan relations and the Pelasgians in Lemnos (where Lemnian = archaic Etruscan inscriptions were found) is not confirmed: Etruscan words are not found in ‘pre-Greek substrate’ as well as Etruscan-Albanian and Etruscan-Thracian parallels are few.
    According to an old hypothesis, Pelasgian might be similar to Thracian which might be compared with Albanian. If Phrygian satem features (azena ‘beard’ in Hesichius, zemelos ‘earth’ in New Phrygian inscriptions) are late[1] and Phrygian was centum initially then ‘Pelasgian’ (as the source of satem elements in Greek and Linear A, B) might be a Thracian dialect, close to Albanian and (lesser?) to Armenian.
    The name of Lerna, where fortified House of the Tiles (Early Helladic II capital?) was built, might be related to Λάρισα, ‘citadel’ (‘Pelasgian’ capital?), Thracian rera ‘stones, stony ground’ (from an earlier *lera), Albanian. lerë, -a ‘stones, fallen stones’[2], λάρναξ, ‘box’, Λάρνασσος ‘an old name of the Πάρνασσος[3]

    Pelasgian mystery solved
    Dorians were hostile to more ancient Achaeans in Sparta as well as Achaeans considered previous relative people ‘barbarians’

    Homer (Od. 19.172–177) mentioned Eteocretans, Cydonians, Pelasgians, Achaeans, and Dorians as inhabitants of Crete.

    https://www.academia.edu/32124901/Ch...GIAN_AND_GREEK


    So not all people or some groups of people has to have Archeology like say Mycenaeans had, and I think they were not big, as Homer mentioned in a small Crete lived Eteocretans, Cydonians, Pelasgians, Achaeans, and Dorians


    So back to you,
    Can you share references for ''Pelasgian is just a broad term used by the Greeks most likely to refer to several different populations''?

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    E-V13 = noble Pelasgians. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Who were the ‘Pelasgians’ archaeologically?
    Herodotus mentioned Pelasgian building activity which might be linked with the Early Helladic II period.

    Lerna was the capital of the Peloponnesian proto-state in Early Bronze Age II Greece. A single ruler[1] of the chiefdom[2], lived in the palace (House of Tiles)[3] and used seals as a sign of prestige or/and social standing[4] at the Early Helladic II Lerna. He might be a ‘Pelasgian king’ of Pelasgian capital.
    Thus the Lerna proto-state was formed under the Greek influence (Anatolian-related Lefkandi I culture) on the ‘Pelasgian’ Early Helladic II culture. The Ezero culture was common source of Troy I–II and Middle Minoan I Crete.
    Indeed, he might be. And this Pelasgian king was killed by the Cetina culture E-V13 heavy invaders from the north, sporting ware similar to proto-Greek Minyan ware.. His proto-state was also eliminated in the process. So you've just answered your own question about E-V13 and Pelasgians.. Congrats..

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    I explained before that Cetina cannot be E-V13, Cardial farmer dated ~7500 YBP from Croatia still didn't have the E-V13 mutation, yet the Spanish 500 years latter did. So, approximately somewhere along the Alpine region E-V13 arose. If Cetina is the source of E-V13 we should see older and more basal E-V13 clades among Croatians/Herzegovinians, yet we don't. We see it among Germans and some old clades among Italians frequently.


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    Add it that Lengyel, Sopot E-L618 which is close to Dalmatia and they are dated 4800 B.C.

    The actual Spanish E-V13 is dated 5000 B.C. Do the math, it's highly unlikely it arose there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Elaborate what? Based on a copy and paste from Wikipedia?

    Where are the archaeological remains of Pelasgians? If you do not answer my question, I will not waste any more time in this discussion with you.
    at Τηνος And Lemnos islands only.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    So per you E-V13 expanded from Vinca culture which ended 4200 BC. Ended 4200 BC means no one would have expanded with Vinca at time time but earlier.. One expands with a flourishing culture and Vinca expanded 5500 BC. Ancestor of all E-V13 lived 2900 BC. Major expansions started 2300 BC. Besides Vinca culture belong to a different archaeological complex unrelated to Cardials which seems clearly connected with E-L618. No no wonder out of 3 tested none were E-V13..
    Again you are interpreting my thought wrong and you are concluding something I am supposing and which I am not even concluding myself

    Never said E-V13 expanded from Vinca, at 4500 BC I believe E=V13 was already expanded all around Europe, didnt you say 7000 BC E-V13 is mutated in Europe and is European 100%? now for the moment we dont want to go back where it came from, either straight from north Africa or through Levant, so again 4500 BC E=V13 all around Europe, 5000 BC one in Spain already found, another one around 5000 BC in Split Croatia etc. So at 4500 BC in Vinca I dont think E-V13 was a minority there, probably around 30%, following with G2a H2 T and I2a J1, maybe noble people were mostly E-V13, just a supposition
    Pic said everything, E-V13 in 6000 BC
    11.gif

    E-V13 in 4000 BC
    77.gif

    So by 4000 BC, as seen on map we have E-V13 all over Balkans so to Cardial ware, and probably in these 2 locations with around 35%?

    Therefore, why I link Pelasgians with E-V13 is that according to the map Helladic Neolithic 5000 BC there is E-V13 and since from the info given Pelasgians where thought to be native inhabitants before Ancient Greece and before Minoan civilization, I would not exclude G2a also to them.

    Also can you see on this map in exact Vinca location E-V13 at 6000 BC? Also I never excluded a theory that it came from Levant as well
    Interestingly this map shows 7000 BC north Thessaly area then 6000 BC expansion to Vinca locations, 5500 BC Peloponnese
    66.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Ancient Egypt and Vinca?? So according to you Vincans were descended from Egypt?? Did I misinterpret something?? You clearly said Vincans were heavy with E-V13 and ultimately the main reason why these people are Pelasgians is because pelasgos was "related" to pelargos "strok" which in turn means the Pelargoans "could have" migrated from Egypt.. So Vincans are from Egypt indeed..
    And you are "offended" by something??
    Yes I am offended because again you misinterpret everything, I meant since e1b is from north Africa including Egypt it might have came straight through Peloponnese and not other way around by 6000 BC, also wasnt there some strong ties also between ancient Egypt Early Dynasty period 3000 BC with today Peloponnese, Crete, Greece and South East Balkans respectively!

    Well yes i think Vincas are descendent of today location of Egypt nile area in quite high percentage maybe around 30%, the rest G2a etc should have been from the Levant, according to the map E-V12 today Egypt Nile area to E-V13, if it was in Today Egypt 10000 BC then why not Vinca in 7000 BC?

    Where do you think Vincas came from? West, North Europe or pontic steppe?
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 29-08-20 at 18:49.

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    incontri andria

    Great job, is a very useful strategy to build links at a quick pace. Well, you made my work easy. Thanks for sharing such useful resources.very good sir nice aartical .

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I often wonder why we lack old samples from the Balkans and Anatolia for that matter. Is there no interest in excavating and analyzing or was cremation a major factor? It is a pity really, given that Balkans is a stepping stone for a lot of peoples and cultures. I am sure if we had more samples a lot would be clearer.
    Agree. Balkans were the melting pot for at least a third of all known haplogroups. Knowing the Balkan ancient picture would answer a huge number of historical puzzles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Pic said everything, E-V13 in 6000 BC Therefore, why I link Pelasgians with E-V13 is that according to the map Helladic Neolithic 5000 BC there is E-V13 and since from the info given Pelasgians where thought to be native inhabitants before Ancient Greece and before Minoan civilization, I would not exclude G2a also to them. Also can you see on this map in exact Vinca location E-V13 at 6000 BC? Also I never excluded a theory that it came from Levant as well Interestingly this map shows 7000 BC north Thessaly area then 6000 BC expansion to Vinca locations, 5500 BC Peloponnese Yes I am offended because again you misinterpret everything, I meant since e1b is from north Africa including Egypt it might have came straight through Peloponnese and not other way around by 6000 BC, also wasnt there some strong ties also between ancient Egypt Early Dynasty period 3000 BC with today Peloponnese, Crete, Greece and South East Balkans respectively! Well yes i think Vincas are descendent of today location of Egypt nile area in quite high percentage maybe around 30%, the rest G2a etc should have been from the Levant, according to the map E-V12 today Egypt Nile area to E-V13, if it was in Today Egypt 10000 BC then why not Vinca in 7000 BC? Where do you think Vincas came from? West, North Europe or pontic steppe?
    Hmmm, I agree with Aspurg in most of the sections but in some, not. Particularly here about V-13 and Vinca's, I agree with you with some differences. I have no doubt Vinca's had some upper EV-13, but they extended north till romanian Turdas site horizon II (hence the name Vinca-Turdas culture) where some very important things happened, in the archaeologically speaking point of view. Turdas horizon III is contemporary with pannonian Starcevo-Cris culture. Basically IMHO, EV-13 origin of 'explozion' is here in Turdas/intraCarpathian Transylvania starting in layer/horizon II and a peak on horizon I (which corespond with the rising of the 'thracians'). To shorten, first Starcevo-Cris inhabitants (? haplo) admixed with Vinca's generated the EV-13 Balkan thracian story. From there, under steppe pressure or not (?), they expand south. That's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vincas came from S/SE, they were EV-13 haplo on a different route than the North pannonian non E haplo Starcevo-Cris other population.
    Last edited by LeoJ; 08-09-20 at 10:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Strabo is not a source when it comes to linguistics. In linguistics it is unacceptable to construct etymologies based on a "mere similarity" of sounds..
    So because you accepted this ridiculous etymology from an unqualified source (which Strabo is for linguistics) because he had connected the Pelasgians with Egypt in order for your to connect the E-V13 with the arrival from Egypt..
    Without getting involved on the genetic part of the conversation, just wanted to contribute by saying that Pelargos/Pelasgian, Ciconian, Cauconians, Leleges, all mean “storks”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Without getting involved on the genetic part of the conversation, just wanted to contribute by saying that Pelargos/Pelasgian, Ciconian, Cauconians, Leleges, all mean “storks”.
    “storks, what the heck those characters are ? What keyboard/language you used ? I saw this many times here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeoJ View Post
    Hmmm, I agree with Aspurg in most of the sections but in some, not. Particularly here about V-13 and Vinca's, I agree with you with some differences. I have no doubt Vinca's had some upper EV-13, but they extended north till romanian Turdas site horizon II (hence the name Vinca-Turdas culture) where some very important things happened, in the archaeologically speaking point of view. Turdas horizon III is contemporary with pannonian Starcevo-Cris culture. Basically IMHO, EV-13 origin of 'explozion' is here in Turdas/intraCarpathian Transylvania starting in layer/horizon II and a peak on horizon I (which corespond with the rising of the 'thracians'). To shorten, first Starcevo-Cris inhabitants (? haplo) admixed with Vinca's generated the EV-13 Balkan thracian story. From there, under steppe pressure or not (?), they expand south. That's my opinion. On the other hand, I believe Vincas came from S/SE, they were EV-13 haplo on a different route than the North pannonian non E haplo Starcevo-Cris other population.
    E-V13 is a Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age intruder in Romania.

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