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Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

  1. #576
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    4 members found this post helpful.
    General Question:

    Are people ever going to stop using the outmoded and completely a-scientific word "Pelasgian"???

    The people living in Greece before the arrival of the Greek speakers were EEF with some CHG/Iran Neo depending on the time period.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    General Question:

    Are people ever going to stop using the outmoded and completely a-scientific word "Pelasgian"???

    The people living in Greece before the arrival of the Greek speakers were EEF with some CHG/Iran Neo depending on the time period.
    There is nothing wrong with using the label Pelasgian for EEF/CHG/Iran Neo natives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with using the label Pelasgian for EEF/CHG/Iran Neo natives.
    Also, what's the handy alternative?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Also, what's the handy alternative?
    Bronze Age Aegeans? Bronze Age Balkanites?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Bronze Age Aegeans? Bronze Age Balkanites?

    Well, not as handy and not as specific I'd say. But I don't really care, people should just use an established term which everybody can instantly recognise.

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    The term Pelasgians has always been confusing ....................Did the Iliad mention them ( Pelasgians ) as south of the Troad ????

    the Phygians as their eastern neighbour
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4p
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Who is sure there has not been other IEans in Greece before Helens? I think the debate is still open. But yes, Pelasgian is confusing, because it can cover a lot of diverse cultures and people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Who is sure there has not been other IEans in Greece before Helens? I think the debate is still open. But yes, Pelasgian is confusing, because it can cover a lot of diverse cultures and people.
    I think the debate is not open insofar, as for sure at least in some regions of Greece had to be pre-Greek IE. I'd say especially those related to Proto-Anatolians and Cernavoda were just too close. Greeks were a later wave, which however managed to march deeper into what is now Greece and hopping on the islands, so making a maritime transitions those before seem to have not made, probably also by fusing with local seafarers.

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    Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

    Distance to: I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    19.69157688 Sicilian
    19.92414866 S_Italian_Sicilian
    20.74236968 Morocco_Jews
    20.91704807 Sephardic_Jews
    21.39073631 C_Italian
    22.39960937 Tuscan
    23.18561407 TSI30
    23.34342948 Ashkenazi
    24.17234370 Ashkenazy_Jews
    26.77793308 Greek
    27.14932228 O_Italian
    27.42703411 North_Italian
    28.85941268 Cypriots
    29.30942340 N_Italian
    31.11091288 Sardinian
    33.28397062 Andalucia
    33.76083085 Baleares
    34.07852256 Murcia
    34.16161150 Canarias
    36.14009546 Galicia
    36.22881588 Extremadura
    36.88398568 Portuguese
    36.96227401 Lebanese
    37.08341543 Castilla_Y_Leon
    37.39192025 Spaniards

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

    Distance to: I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    19.69157688 Sicilian
    19.92414866 S_Italian_Sicilian
    20.74236968 Morocco_Jews
    20.91704807 Sephardic_Jews
    21.39073631 C_Italian
    22.39960937 Tuscan
    23.18561407 TSI30
    23.34342948 Ashkenazi
    24.17234370 Ashkenazy_Jews
    26.77793308 Greek
    27.14932228 O_Italian
    27.42703411 North_Italian
    28.85941268 Cypriots
    29.30942340 N_Italian
    31.11091288 Sardinian
    33.28397062 Andalucia
    33.76083085 Baleares
    34.07852256 Murcia
    34.16161150 Canarias
    36.14009546 Galicia
    36.22881588 Extremadura
    36.88398568 Portuguese
    36.96227401 Lebanese
    37.08341543 Castilla_Y_Leon
    37.39192025 Spaniards
    Also, this sample is a female, and the mtDNA is K1a26.

  11. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

    Distance to: I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
    19.69157688 Sicilian
    19.92414866 S_Italian_Sicilian
    20.74236968 Morocco_Jews
    20.91704807 Sephardic_Jews
    21.39073631 C_Italian
    22.39960937 Tuscan
    23.18561407 TSI30
    23.34342948 Ashkenazi
    24.17234370 Ashkenazy_Jews
    26.77793308 Greek
    27.14932228 O_Italian
    27.42703411 North_Italian
    28.85941268 Cypriots
    29.30942340 N_Italian
    31.11091288 Sardinian
    33.28397062 Andalucia
    33.76083085 Baleares
    34.07852256 Murcia
    34.16161150 Canarias
    36.14009546 Galicia
    36.22881588 Extremadura
    36.88398568 Portuguese
    36.96227401 Lebanese
    37.08341543 Castilla_Y_Leon
    37.39192025 Spaniards
    Neolithic is too early to label Pelasgians, we don't know if Pelasgians were Early Neolithic people or CHG or a mix of both of them, and a chunk of Steppe here and there. Patrilinearly i have four scenarios in mind:

    1. G2a.
    2. J2a
    3. A mix of G2a and J2a
    4. E-V13 incomers from Danube, Peleset/Philistines/Pelasgians according to Marija Gimbutas were late-comers to Greece from Danube basin during the Late Bronze Age turmoil, and ancient Greek authors were confused and wrong on their assumptions, but still they can be labelled as Early Neolithic descended people, but incoming from further North, Danube basin.

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    At any rate, here are other Neolithic Greek samples from Matheison et al. 2018, in Dodecad K12b format:

    Code:
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76

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    Distance to: Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920
    12.55067329 Sephardic_Jews
    13.93445370 Morocco_Jews
    14.20389031 Sicilian
    14.53853500 S_Italian_Sicilian
    15.98064454 Ashkenazi
    16.73781646 Ashkenazy_Jews
    18.70733546 Cypriots
    20.21094011 C_Italian
    22.11675835 Greek
    23.13261334 Tuscan
    24.47959558 TSI30
    26.42099922 O_Italian
    27.40526774 Druze
    27.74727014 Lebanese
    29.01828734 Turkish
    30.07047223 Syrians
    30.26174152 Jordanians
    30.65401931 Palestinian
    31.05522661 North_Italian
    31.47099140 Samaritians
    31.86389179 Turks
    31.88552963 N_Italian
    33.72596922 Iraq_Jews
    33.97342785 Armenian
    34.05508773 Assyrian


    Distance to: Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
    17.70140955 Sicilian
    17.70880572 Sephardic_Jews
    17.93321499 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.70059357 Morocco_Jews
    20.46705157 Ashkenazi
    21.15268068 Ashkenazy_Jews
    21.61280870 C_Italian
    23.52872712 Tuscan
    23.57725175 Cypriots
    24.75990711 TSI30
    24.97495145 Greek
    27.84140083 O_Italian
    30.40738233 North_Italian
    31.80412866 N_Italian
    32.45537398 Druze
    33.08038996 Lebanese
    33.31648541 Turkish
    35.09498967 Syrians
    35.47444432 Jordanians
    35.85461895 Palestinian
    36.25245923 Turks
    36.62070862 Samaritians
    36.82807896 Sardinian
    37.90385469 Baleares
    37.97744331 Andalucia


    Distance to: Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
    19.40351772 Morocco_Jews
    19.73851058 Sicilian
    19.98423128 S_Italian_Sicilian
    20.21531845 Sephardic_Jews
    21.74873330 C_Italian
    23.02683869 Tuscan
    23.13563269 Ashkenazi
    23.61503546 TSI30
    24.18195195 Ashkenazy_Jews
    27.24194376 Greek
    27.43963374 O_Italian
    27.69148244 North_Italian
    28.97424201 Cypriots
    29.53746604 N_Italian
    31.36124838 Sardinian
    33.14803916 Andalucia
    33.55961114 Canarias
    33.57203449 Murcia
    33.61046712 Baleares
    35.71862119 Galicia
    35.85028452 Extremadura
    36.11957226 Lebanese
    36.34769319 Portuguese
    36.70677730 Castilla_Y_Leon
    36.99598357 Druze


    Distance to: Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
    19.33047594 Sicilian
    19.57458556 S_Italian_Sicilian
    20.08565657 Sephardic_Jews
    20.40588641 Morocco_Jews
    21.83529940 C_Italian
    22.65419167 Ashkenazi
    23.17877477 Tuscan
    23.44600819 Ashkenazy_Jews
    24.13538067 TSI30
    26.48128396 Greek
    27.12975488 Cypriots
    27.90359117 O_Italian
    28.89308049 North_Italian
    30.64388683 N_Italian
    33.00872006 Sardinian
    35.37902486 Andalucia
    35.67226374 Baleares
    35.87326442 Druze
    36.00503298 Lebanese
    36.14460402 Canarias
    36.16399314 Murcia
    36.34873313 Turkish
    37.78350566 Syrians
    38.09672952 Galicia
    38.14858320 Jordanians


    Distance to: Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
    22.99721722 Sicilian
    23.15988990 S_Italian_Sicilian
    23.32663285 C_Italian
    23.64329715 Tuscan
    23.76852330 Morocco_Jews
    24.01698774 TSI30
    24.54388111 Sephardic_Jews
    26.72652428 Sardinian
    26.85388612 North_Italian
    26.87959263 Ashkenazi
    27.84898562 Ashkenazy_Jews
    28.59936887 O_Italian
    29.16756589 N_Italian
    29.73029600 Greek
    30.99162306 Andalucia
    31.81028922 Murcia
    31.94871672 Baleares
    32.51302047 Canarias
    33.24054903 Cypriots
    34.28784478 Galicia
    34.40721872 Extremadura
    34.91192490 Castilla_Y_Leon
    35.07662184 Portuguese
    35.11704002 Spaniards
    35.28731358 Castilla_La_Mancha

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    Here are all of them, plus an aggregate of all 6 samples:

    Code:
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
    Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
    Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
    
    Greece_N_(n=6),0.075,0.018333333,3.27,0.271666667,43.2,0.211666667,0,0.013333333,14.15166667,0,37.99833333,0.788333333
    Distance to: Greece_N_(n=6)
    18.40171241 Sicilian
    18.64401922 S_Italian_Sicilian
    18.97314030 Sephardic_Jews
    19.01187312 Morocco_Jews
    21.07059609 C_Italian
    21.70606949 Ashkenazi
    22.55991695 Tuscan
    22.57831599 Ashkenazy_Jews
    23.46493809 TSI30
    25.80042221 Greek
    26.63307066 Cypriots
    27.06937912 O_Italian
    28.28656665 North_Italian
    29.96172535 N_Italian
    33.34028923 Sardinian
    34.80904556 Andalucia
    34.91952347 Lebanese
    35.02669153 Baleares
    35.16409371 Druze
    35.31738174 Canarias
    35.41767147 Murcia
    35.80509442 Turkish
    36.56695712 Syrians
    36.88730296 Jordanians
    37.23570266 Palestinian

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    Distance to: Jovialis
    24.90830958 Greece_N_(n=6)


    Significantly distant, but relatively close.

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    E-V13 is likely Indo-European. Pre IE Greek populations were largely EEF's with mostly J and G Y-Dna's.

    Minoans, otoh, have large amounts of CHG, imo as a result of direct migration from Maykop-Kura Araxes areas, who brought the language and started the Greek civilisation by mixing with the local EEF's

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    @Jovialis, are those modern populations you compared the neolithic inhabitants of Greece to? I was thinking it would make more sense to compare them to other neolithic populations or Bronze Age populations.

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    Here they are compared to the Eupedia checker. Looks like Maciamo already compiled some of them together, I am guessing from the early part of the Neolithic.

    They are close to Minoans, which makes perfect sense, considering that they too are Anatolian_N + CHG:

    Distance to: Greece_N_(n=6)
    0.50181615 Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
    4.60799155 Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    5.99914600 Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
    6.06872195 Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
    10.11111861 Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    11.78200263 Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
    12.09561020 EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
    12.92535052 EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
    12.94833655 LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
    13.97715825 Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
    14.95983688 LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
    15.26975287 MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
    15.59472943 Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
    15.60007113 Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
    17.14309539 Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
    17.75523170 Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
    17.88362434 Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
    17.89231733 EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
    18.45974411 Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
    18.95663084 Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
    20.06943828 Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
    20.26378591 Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
    20.63983090 Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    22.00639421 Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    22.59681510 Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

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    Here are the three Early Neolithic samples from Greece, vs other ancient samples. Again, Minoans are number one:

    Distance to: Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
    4.67690068 Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
    5.99230340 Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
    6.13463935 Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
    10.22518459 Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
    11.86980623 Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
    12.11156472 EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
    12.94813500 LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
    13.05937977 EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
    14.06299755 Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
    15.02037949 LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
    15.34077899 MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
    15.57916557 Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
    15.67691615 Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
    17.18863869 Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
    17.76622357 Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
    17.90113404 Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
    17.93495749 EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
    18.43027943 Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
    19.06663316 Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
    20.11910038 Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
    20.35612930 Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
    20.76235295 Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
    22.12733152 Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
    22.74940659 Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
    23.31082367 Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

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    This is annoying, ALL of them are female. However, there are 3 more, one from the "Final Neolithic", that I believe were in the Clemente et. al 2021 paper, one of which is G2a2a1a2.


    From the supplement of Mathieson et al. 2018:

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    It's totally amazing and surprising how E-V13 is missing in Neolithic Greece/Bulgaria, Serbia (Vinca samples were again mostly G2a and some H).

    We were so misslead by modern percentages.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Also, what's the handy alternative?
    Good question, for me, and this is perhaps due to my old school Dominican Nuns teaching, every time I see Palasgian, I think of Pelagius(Pelagianism)!! a dualistic philosophy that was rampant in parts of the Western_Latin Church in 4th Century which Saint Augustine got into heated debates with. Obviously, the words are not related but they are to my eye sometimes similar. Thus I have to do a double take sometimes.

  23. #598
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    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    949

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Siicly-South
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Jovialis: My distances using coordinates from your post #589 (thanks for the work).

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_Combined
    18.26657603 Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920
    20.82958279 Greece_N_(n=6)
    21.18285155 Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
    21.29334403 Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
    21.68626985 Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
    21.98648221 Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
    24.02083471 Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

  24. #599
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,536

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    (R1b-F1794) R-M269
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Here are the Northern Greece Neolithic samples, from Hofmanova et al. 2016 (they were not from Clemente et al. 2021):

    Code:
    Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
    Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
    Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35
    
    Northern_Greece_N_(n=3),0,0,3.75,0.06,47.3,0,0,0,13.13333333,0.266666667,33.97,1.516666667

  25. #600
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,536

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    (R1b-F1794) R-M269
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Distance to: Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
    21.69984485 Sicilian
    21.99407875 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.29113501 Morocco_Jews
    22.33997016 C_Italian
    22.92029741 Tuscan
    23.20305943 Sephardic_Jews
    23.34354086 TSI30
    25.59428647 Ashkenazi
    26.51733772 North_Italian
    26.54116174 Ashkenazy_Jews
    27.73326703 Sardinian
    27.74656195 O_Italian
    28.69622914 N_Italian
    28.71904420 Greek
    30.86826472 Andalucia
    31.66319893 Murcia
    31.78298549 Baleares
    31.89701397 Canarias
    32.15359855 Cypriots
    34.08165831 Galicia
    34.12505873 Extremadura
    34.72958969 Portuguese
    34.75710239 Castilla_Y_Leon
    35.13000854 Spaniards
    35.37613367 Castilla_La_Mancha


    Distance to: Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
    22.66463545 Sicilian
    22.83912214 C_Italian
    23.04417497 S_Italian_Sicilian
    23.24397126 Tuscan
    23.26946067 Morocco_Jews
    23.52799184 TSI30
    24.40618774 Sephardic_Jews
    26.23530446 Sardinian
    26.24034108 North_Italian
    26.69441889 Ashkenazi
    27.63428487 Ashkenazy_Jews
    28.12002134 O_Italian
    28.53540958 N_Italian
    29.60986322 Greek
    29.83672569 Andalucia
    30.74761779 Murcia
    30.87141072 Canarias
    31.00974041 Baleares
    33.29513778 Extremadura
    33.32057022 Galicia
    33.65634561 Cypriots
    33.81588384 Castilla_Y_Leon
    33.88759803 Portuguese
    34.23658862 Spaniards
    34.41354385 Castilla_La_Mancha


    Distance to: Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7
    21.93589296 Sicilian
    22.27435521 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.28050493 Morocco_Jews
    22.39067663 C_Italian
    22.93471386 Tuscan
    23.26163580 TSI30
    23.45906861 Sephardic_Jews
    25.86319586 Ashkenazi
    26.20212968 North_Italian
    26.84133752 Ashkenazy_Jews
    27.19634718 Sardinian
    27.69195732 O_Italian
    28.40731068 N_Italian
    29.01122024 Greek
    30.13253557 Andalucia
    30.87910135 Murcia
    31.01443051 Canarias
    31.15591276 Baleares
    32.79331792 Cypriots
    33.38521978 Galicia
    33.39659414 Extremadura
    33.95610696 Portuguese
    34.00768884 Castilla_Y_Leon
    34.46460358 Spaniards
    34.64518581 Castilla_La_Mancha


    Distance to: Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
    20.78053175 Sicilian
    20.93053750 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.60660084 Morocco_Jews
    21.98194259 Sephardic_Jews
    22.09761752 C_Italian
    22.88638460 Tuscan
    23.54022940 TSI30
    24.44903679 Ashkenazi
    25.36214699 Ashkenazy_Jews
    27.35781972 North_Italian
    27.67823694 O_Italian
    27.74897115 Greek
    29.38070115 N_Italian
    29.89179821 Sardinian
    30.12408007 Cypriots
    32.77802923 Andalucia
    33.35010345 Baleares
    33.50804978 Murcia
    33.93183461 Canarias
    35.69166289 Galicia
    35.82889895 Extremadura
    36.48419521 Portuguese
    36.58116182 Castilla_Y_Leon
    36.83000679 Spaniards
    37.20055645 Castilla_La_Mancha

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