Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

[Jovialis]

Northern Greece Neo vs Southern Greece Neo:

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
2.40816666	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
4.14914449	Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
4.27987539	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
5.91626548	Greece_N_(n=6)
6.34545244	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
9.85760451	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
13.94642009	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

---

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
3.24115720	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
5.71577641	Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
5.84238821	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
7.53665837	Greece_N_(n=6)
7.76703290	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
11.34981938	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
15.41466834	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

---

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7
2.93986394	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
4.77472512	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
5.17961389	Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
6.82313120	Greece_N_(n=6)
7.35911000	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
10.80519782	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
14.60860363	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

---

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
2.48947786	Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
3.47423373	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
3.50709281	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
3.96232921	Greece_N_(n=6)
4.51229432	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
7.74572140	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
12.10513940	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

[Jovialis]

Northern Greece Neo vs Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker:

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
3.95073411	Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
5.87383464	Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
6.60681466	EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
7.69388502	LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
7.89405050	Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
9.64642594	LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
9.95511929	Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
9.99717460	Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
10.32730362	Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
10.59903612	MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
11.70766416	Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
11.85611375	Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
12.21947216	Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
12.24321717	Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
12.31004197	Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
12.57137887	EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
12.74551686	Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
12.89895086	Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
15.05533571	Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
16.16743847	EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
17.64493223	Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
24.24392501	Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
24.43917006	Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
24.44766042	Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
24.58542048	Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

---

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
4.41680880	Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
5.75074778	EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
6.43449299	LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
7.43336398	Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
7.58139829	Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
8.54582354	Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
8.79639131	LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
9.37636390	Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
10.27857967	MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
10.73735535	Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
10.96766156	Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
11.17087732	Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
11.35762739	Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
11.48457226	EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
11.64948926	Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
11.82524841	Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
13.32510037	Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
13.81449601	Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
13.97261965	Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
16.11385118	Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
17.19699683	EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
23.67081748	Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
24.07053593	Chalcolithic_BB_Sardinia_(n=10)
24.68076174	Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
25.14148166	Middle_Neolithic_France_(n=19)

---

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7
4.38094739	Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
6.02466597	EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
6.75148872	Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
7.07077082	LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
7.32978172	Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
9.03027131	LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
9.33324167	Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
9.51317507	Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
9.91312766	MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
11.20897854	Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
11.23360583	Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
11.51353551	Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
11.74794876	Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
11.79231105	Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
11.85183108	EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
12.10430502	Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
12.42936040	Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
13.30579573	Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
14.33478985	Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
16.53946795	EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
16.94128389	Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
23.87404658	Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
24.49707534	Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
24.65291463	Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
24.65876112	Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

---

Distance to:	Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
4.08877732	Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
4.70890645	Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
8.27838752	Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
8.69667178	EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
9.47600127	Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
9.65456887	Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
10.01193787	LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
11.58827425	LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
11.63888311	Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
12.05462982	Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
12.13050700	MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
12.29725579	Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
13.72120257	Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
13.93798407	Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
14.31132768	Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
14.52197645	Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
14.69037780	EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
15.02945441	Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
15.13001322	EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
17.12655540	Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
20.03540366	Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
22.32361082	Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
23.16591462	Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
23.62168707	Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
24.06207389	Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

[Jovialis]

Distance to:	Jovialis
22.35913236	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920
24.90830958	Greece_N_(n=6)
25.00568335	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
25.59083625	Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
25.64280601	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
25.84473641	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
26.40096589	Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
26.82268132	Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
26.85622274	Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7
27.46180620	Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
27.93191902	Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

[Jovialis]

[Jovialis]

I'll be interested to see Neolithic samples from Southern Italy, particularly Puglia. Not only because my family comes from there, but also because Puglia was one of two port of entry for Neolithic peoples into Italy. The other being Eastern Sicily. I would wager that like these Peloponnese Neolithic samples, they have CHG + Anatolian_N. I'd bet they even cluster together.

[bigsnake49]

@Jovialis, thank you for all your work! Northern and southern Greek Neolithic samples pretty close to each other given the distance. Also pretty close to the Minoans.

I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.

[Jovialis]

@Jovialis, thank you for all your work! Northern and southern Greek Neolithic samples pretty close to each other given the distance. Also pretty close to the Minoans.

I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.

Yeah, unfortunately for that question, all of the samples are female, except for one in the final Neolithic, which is a G2a male.

[Aspurg]

I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.

E-V13/E-L618 in Neolithic was likely confined to Dalmatian coast until the EBA. And the only Neolithic E-L618 find comes from there. E-V13 is obviously Cardial related (with E-V13 Spanish Cardial find) and Dalmatian coast was their main hub.

E-V13 itself started to expand in EBA with the Cetina culture. There aren't finds from there, but this is extremely likely based on V13 diversity and the strong Neolithic Cardial element that played part in its formation.

Great many Greek V13 are either Iron Age incomers or Medieval Vlach and Arvanite incomers.

[LeoJ]

I don't think that pelasgians were ancient greeks in this manner. I think pelasgians were the very latest neolithic nonIE population of Balkans.

[Hawk]

Recently i come across the belief that the Pelasgians indeed could have been E-V13, and they were not Pre-Greek people but Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age intruders from the Danube.

Archeologically the Danubian invaders of LBA were mainly concentrated around Attica and Thessaly were cremation was mostly prevalent. Just as Gimbutas proposed the Pelasgians might indeed be recent comers to Greece who were latter absorbed into Greek ethnos during classical time.

The Pelasgians could very well have spoken an extinct IE language (maybe the same/related to Peleset/Philistines), and those non IE words are from separate/extinct pre-Greek people who mixed with Myceneans instead way earlier.

We have witnessed so far, how many times ancient Greek authors were not always correct, they had subjective worldview and totally understanding for their time.

[Riverman]

Recently i come across the belief that the Pelasgians indeed could have been E-V13, and they were not Pre-Greek people but Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age intruders from the Danube.

Archeologically the Danubian invaders of LBA were mainly concentrated around Attica and Thessaly were cremation was mostly prevalent. Just as Gimbutas proposed the Pelasgians might indeed be recent comers to Greece who were latter absorbed into Greek ethnos during classical time.

The Pelasgians could very well have spoken an extinct IE language (maybe the same/related to Peleset/Philistines), and those non IE words are from separate/extinct pre-Greek people who mixed with Myceneans instead way earlier.

We have witnessed so far, how many times ancient Greek authors were not always correct, they had subjective worldview and totally understanding for their time.

Even more important in this respect might be the Paeonians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians
https://amp.en.google-info.in/219549...-language.html

They surely had E-V13 and might be a fused/mixed group with Daco-Thracian affinities.

[torzio]

Even more important in this respect might be the Paeonians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians
https://amp.en.google-info.in/219549...-language.html

They surely had E-V13 and might be a fused/mixed group with Daco-Thracian affinities.

As per the map on the linked site...the Paeonians closest neighbours by ethnicity would be the Dardanians first, then the Macedonians ............they might have been as you state a Daco-thracian group , but IMO, they are entirely separate group along with Dardanians and Macedonians
The Paeonians always seemed to be under the Macedonian yoke

[ihype02]

Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

No.

[Angela]

You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.

[ihype02]

Pelasgians did not exist.

[Hawk]

You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.

What if we know it?

[bigsnake49]

You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.

Particularly since according to this theory they used cremation. You may use archaeology to give you an ida of their material culture. But unless you have ancient sample you cannot say anything about their DNA.

[bigsnake49]

Pelasgians did not exist.

What do you want to call the pre-Greeks?

[Riverman]

Particularly since according to this theory they used cremation. You may use archaeology to give you an ida of their material culture. But unless you have ancient sample you cannot say anything about their DNA.

We can use the classical pre-post reasoning though. What was there before, what came in, what was different afterwards. This might not even always be about one haplogroup coming from outside replacing the locals, it can also mean one group from the larger framework expanding at the expense of the others.
In this case the cremation horizon East of a certain line is very likely to mean increased frequency for E-V13. This is therefore true for a lot of people North of the Greeks and some of these Daco-Thracian related elements marched into Greece too. Now the question is what is meant if talking about "Pelasgians". If its the Pre-Greek people of the region, than they're not the same as those bringing cremation, because those which brought cremation were Urnfielders from the Carpathians and Danube, not the pre-Greek inhabitants of the Aegean Sea. Therefore, people have to make that decision first: What and whom do they mean if talking about "Pelasgians".
If there is no proper definition, we can't even start to associate them with a specific archaeological and other ethnic groups, which is difficult enough. The Pre-Greeks seem to have been largely Copper Age inhabitants still, very Neolithic, in some regions probably influenced by Proto-Anatolian related groups (Cernavoda?), but that's speculative already.

[Dorian9]

IMO Pelasgians must have existed as much as Achaeans ,Dardanians ,Dorians ,Carians ,Illyrians etc did ,the common theme behind the myths of all those is that peoples and territories end up being named by one common forefather/king (sounds like an "IE" thing If you ask me) ,the confusion could lie in the fact that Pelasgian came to mean the autochthonous/old inhabitant aka the pre-IE substrate or that it described the sum of all the peoples in territories that an early IE group expanded/ruled at ,this group assimilated the first and ended up identifying with them (after all we know Mycenaean civilization as an example was the continuation of local Aegean one and they had mostly local DNA so it sounds like a reasonable expectation..to me at least) ,the result is that both them and those who could have retained their pre-IE speech(the "barbarian Pelasgians" per Herodotus maybe?)came to be grouped under the same name.If this were to be true maybe "Pelasgic" would be a better term or simply draw a line between "IE" and non IE-speaking "Pelasgians".

[bigsnake49]

Do we have any archeological evidence of IE pelasgian and non-IE Pelasgians. Greeks were mid to late Bronze Age migrants so what does the archaeological evidence say about the natives before them? The Minoan and the Cycladic civilizations were advanced Bronze Age civilizations and were not neolithic, so I don't know where the neolithic adjective came from.

[noUseForAname]

Very interesting posts guys, everyone is welcome to share their point or theories and any other data...

We still need more data for sure, old data I mean since the modern ones I believe would only confuse us even more...

Angela mentioned that Pelasgian as a word might mean just a region and not individuals, but that might not be the case, we dont have old samples yet especially those of males, but we do have historical mentioning that they where people indeed, maybe that might be right, as with Illyria since it was quite a big region and many tribes or ethnicities might have lived in the Illyrian regions, Pelasgians might be a bit different since the history mentioned that they were low in numbers and the region was not as vast as Illyria

So definitely no data yet here so we can't conclude anything, only historical, that might be as well very subjective, but I would still believe history than theories with no data, or at least significant data

Angela is you have more data as of why you think Pelasgia was only a region, please share...


Note: When I mentioned "Would the Pelasgian DNA be E-V13", of course I mean their highest in % since we know everyone is mixed lol, I am just speculating of course but am not believing at all that Pelasgians were very related with Minoans or Mycenenian, I still believe Pelasgians were very barbaric, on around middle Neolithic, very low in numbers who lived mostly in mountains as barbars, as it notes they were the very first man from Africa, (that is why I link it with E-V13) it might be true but of course we need data, so Minoan/Mycenenian civilization had nothing to do with them I believe..

[Hawk]

Very interesting posts guys, everyone is welcome to share their point or theories and any other data...

We still need more data for sure, old data I mean since the modern ones I believe would only confuse us even more...

Angela mentioned that Pelasgian as a word might mean just a region and not individuals, but that might not be the case, we dont have old samples yet especially those of males, but we do have historical mentioning that they where people indeed, maybe that might be right, as with Illyria since it was quite a big region and many tribes or ethnicities might have lived in the Illyrian regions, Pelasgians might be a bit different since the history mentioned that they were low in numbers and the region was not as vast as Illyria

So definitely no data yet here so we can't conclude anything, only historical, that might be as well very subjective, but I would still believe history than theories with no data, or at least significant data

Angela is you have more data as of why you think Pelasgia was only a region, please share...


Note: When I mentioned "Would the Pelasgian DNA be E-V13", of course I mean their highest in % since we know everyone is mixed lol, I am just speculating of course but am not believing at all that Pelasgians were very related with Minoans or Mycenenian, I still believe Pelasgians were very barbaric, on around middle Neolithic, very low in numbers who lived mostly in mountains as barbars, as it notes they were the very first man from Africa, (that is why I link it with E-V13) it might be true but of course we need data, so Minoan/Mycenenian civilization had nothing to do with them I believe..

You do realize that from where E-V13 ancestor came, E-L618, or it's ancestral subclade E-Z1919, from somewhere from Mesolithic Egypt was far more advanced than any Mesolithic European Culture or West-Asian or Steppe.

But, that's beyond the scope, because i highly doubt thousands of years or survival, hardships, transformations in Europe they knew anything remotely about Nile Valley being their couple of thousand of years ancestral homeland. It's beyond human perception. How we know is thanks to mathematical and scientific models. Abstract things.

[EV13SON]

Well by around 1300 BC Robin Spencers SNP tracker places my line in Poland...Troy was said to have fallen in 1200 BC so they were definitely in the area at the time of the Pelasgians Boy ppl really do hate on us EV13 eh lol! I want my Reparations! lol jk jk

You know I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say my people taught the brutish Yamanya how to read and write...