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Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

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    Expansion of E-V13 explained

    by Dienekes

    http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/...explained.html


    an article about EV-13 expansion in Balkans,

    It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,


    G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
    I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.


    Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    Greek historians wrote about Pellasgians for 15 hundred years. If you are curious, there is on Wikipedia some sources where you have to look. The idea is that Pellasgians were among the first inhabitants of the Balkans, Anatolia and Italic peninsula.Just google Pellasgians. There is linguistic evidence for this claim. Since its accepted that the ice age inhabitants of Europe were I1 and I2 people it makes sense that Pellasgians were one of them.

    Albanian claim is that we might have inherited more than others linguistically and genetically from Pellasgians, but not that we are Pellasgians. Pellasgians eventually were Hellenized, Illyrianized or Romanized.
    I don't know if if this makes sense to you?
    I'm trying to tell you that this makes no sense. You are taking way too many things for granted beforehand which is not only speculative but actually known to be wrong, and you're mixing up a number of concepts that are unrelated:

    1) the ancient Greek authors (eg. Homer) talk about the Pelasgians as an ethnic group (partially the ancestors of the Greeks) or a vaguely-defined geographical term (usually relating to the Aegean).

    2) the term "Pelasgian" has been used by some linguists in the past for a substrate language in Greek. I personally prefer to say "pre-Greek", because I do not think that there was "one" Pelasgian language but different ones that were - from the appearance of it (ie. Minoan, Lemnian).

    3) there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between the modern Albanian language and any one these pre-Greek languages, and there is no common linguistic substrate in Greek and Albanian. In Greek, yes, there are words not derived from Proto-Indo-European (Greek uniquely has a number of old Semitic loanwords, for example), but not with Albanian. By its evolution from Proto-Indo-European, Albanian is also much different from Greek: in its phonetic evolution, Albanian has much more in common with the northern branches of Indo-European (Germanic and Balto-Slavic) than with Greek.

    The trope that "Pelasgians were first inhabitants of the Balkans" is, in my opinion, completely unfounded. It only makes sense if you ad-hoc define the neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" (without actually caring where the term comes from or what it means :rolleyes: ) and go from there.

    The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including the Albanians), no doubt, have a partial ancestry in the Neolithic population of that area, but please, lets keep the term "Pelasgian" out of that discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians
    How'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the Neolithic and Eneolithic period in Albania?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.
    The beginning of the formation of communities with populations of ethnic traits is an evolutionary process, long and complicated, which belongs to the Neolithic (New Stone) and Eneolithic era (copper). As time span these eras capture millennium period between the seventh and fourth millennium B.C.
    In these two era major and essential, changes occurred, without knowledge of which can not here understand that originated the process of formation of peoples and languages ​​of the Balkan Peninsula.
    And to understand these qualitative changes the only sources are of archaeological evidence, coming from the territory of Eastern Europe, including the Aegean and Anatolia (Turkey's western coasts). Therefore it is necessary to become acquainted with these discoveries.
    Many are the data from the territory of Albania and the Albanian territories. With intensive research of the past 50 years, made to the cultures of the time of Neolithic and copper is achieved major representative of recognized cultures, their characteristics and peculiarities of the development level from one period to another. Early Neolithic culture in Albania is represented by the Vlushta (Korce), the Podgories (Korce), the Kolshi (Kukes); Middle Neolithic culture of Dunavec (Korce) of Cakran (Fier) and Blazin (Mat), while the late Neolithic culture represented by Maliq I Barç I (Korce) and Kamnikut (Cologne). (Prendi, F. 1976, 21-99; Korkuti, M. 1995, 11-261). These are representative of the Neolithic cultures of Albania, which show a dense housing (for the time) and geographic reach that covers almost the entire territory. Starting from the earliest cultures Vlushta (seventh millennium B.C.) until to Maliq I, has a residential consistently demonstrates a sedentary life, which was conditioned from birth and development of agriculture and livestock, two basic branches economy and interdependent on each other since their birth. In some settlements (Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq, Cakran, etc.) took priority to agriculture, which made possible the establishment of reserves for living based products, and consequently, significant changes occurred in the social life. For this reason, these new aspects of Neolithic and Eneolithic some scholars have termed as "agricultural revolution".

    Continuity of life and culture finds its expression primarily in the technology of preparation of earthen vessels, as well as the addition of large working tools of flint, stone and bones and all about perfecting the technique in their paper, proven these rich collections of work tools and the multitude of vessels of clay, found in Podgorie, Dunavec, Maliq etc..
    Important new feature of this era was the begining rate relationships, not only between neighboring communities, but also between remote communities, as evidenced by import objects from backgrounds genuine culture of Thessaly (Greece), found these in Dunavec the Cakran (Korkuti, M. Andrea, Zh. 1974). These swaps, which were the initial however, show that our Neolithic cultures have not been closed, isolated, but have given the deal with each other. Conversely, in one of the capitals of the Neolithic cultures of Thessaly, on the acropolis of Diminit found objects imported from Dunavec culture. (Korkuti M. 1995.127)
    The Neolithic cultures in Albania are referred to the construction of wooden frame housing, fence walls, smeared with mud. But the most difficult buildings were wooden huts, raised on the water, such as the remarkable waterlogged residence (on stakes) of Dunavec, which nowadays is the earliest in the Balkans (the middle of the fifth millennium Pesona. According to analysis laboratory carbon (C14) this settlement dates in 4800 B.C.

    Indoeuropeanisation Western Balkan territory became part of the overall process of the whole Balkan indoeuropeanized, so this problem will be referred to, firstly, to the conclusions reached. They can be summarized in these views more representative.

    - Most of Albanian and foreign archaeologists the indoeuropeanisation of South East Europe see as a long process that took place as a result of several waves of invasions nomadic neighbors, come from the steppes of Asia in the third millennium B.C.

    A variant of this view, constitutes another thesis according to which non-Indo-European population, of the Mediterranean, Neolithic and Eneolithic was indoeuropeanisate during the large influx of pastoral peoples, who came from the steppes in the early Bronze Age.
    However, when we think about the implications of this process, we should note that the movement of the peoples of the steppe has been strongest in the eastern territories of the Balkan Peninsula and less in the regions of West Balcan, which constituted the terminal ends of the extent of this influx, the role of symbiosis of the immigrant's with the local population may not be the same as in the eastern Balkan territories.
    The first record for the label of this population will find older authors of ancient Greece, Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus and to over 100 other authors, Greek and Latin, who speak for the Pelasgians as a population not Greek. (In order to complete these data are found in the work of Fr.Lochner-Hüttenboch, Die Pelasger). Homer mentions the Pelasgians as the inhabitants of Thessaly, Crete; younger writers as Hesiod, Herodotus, Hecataeus, Thucydides, give us other releases, placing Pelasgians once in in Peloponnesus , once in Asia Minor and once in Italy, and their language, Pelasgian, call barbaric languages ​​ie . not Greek.

    From the viewpoints of scholars of the twentieth century can mention those of some linguists, as M.Budimir, V.Georgiev, Fr.Lochner -Hüttenbach, G, Bonfante etc.., Who expressed the opinion that there is a connection between the language of this population pregreek Mediterranean ancient languages ​​of the Balkans later, as thracian and illyrian. Other researchers, like B.Gavela, the pellazgic substrate of Balkan-Aegean region pose as an Indo-European indigenous determine from the geographical and cultural point of view (Gavela, B. 1971.24). On the basis of these studies can be said that the Pelasgians are a population that has resided in Eastern Europe, the Mediterranean and Asia Minor before the formation of the Greek ethnos and that their language is Indo-European and is not related to the Greek.

    So, in few words these are the pelasgian and their presence in Western Balcan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm trying to tell you that this makes no sense. You are taking way too many things for granted beforehand which is not only speculative but actually known to be wrong, and you're mixing up a number of concepts that are unrelated:

    1) the ancient Greek authors (eg. Homer) talk about the Pelasgians as an ethnic group (partially the ancestors of the Greeks) or a vaguely-defined geographical term (usually relating to the Aegean).

    2) the term "Pelasgian" has been used by some linguists in the past for a substrate language in Greek. I personally prefer to say "pre-Greek", because I do not think that there was "one" Pelasgian language but different ones that were - from the appearance of it (ie. Minoan, Lemnian).

    3) there is no evidence whatsoever for a connection between the modern Albanian language and any one these pre-Greek languages, and there is no common linguistic substrate in Greek and Albanian. In Greek, yes, there are words not derived from Proto-Indo-European (Greek uniquely has a number of old Semitic loanwords, for example), but not with Albanian. By its evolution from Proto-Indo-European, Albanian is also much different from Greek: in its phonetic evolution, Albanian has much more in common with the northern branches of Indo-European (Germanic and Balto-Slavic) than with Greek.

    The trope that "Pelasgians were first inhabitants of the Balkans" is, in my opinion, completely unfounded. It only makes sense if you ad-hoc define the neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" (without actually caring where the term comes from or what it means :rolleyes: ) and go from there.

    The modern inhabitants of the Balkans (including the Albanians), no doubt, have a partial ancestry in the Neolithic population of that area, but please, lets keep the term "Pelasgian" out of that discussion.
    Greek authors made clear that Pellasgians spoke different language. Sometimes they switched to Greek. Greek historians were boasting with pride that Hellens never switched their language. Homer is just one writer who mentioned them. There are about ten others who also mentioned them. It appears that Pellazgs were not a uniform ethnic group. According to the writings they too spoke different languages in different regions. Its not clear how related their languages were.
    Since no special ability were mentioned about them we suppose that their culture was not in the Hellenic level.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I want to explain the albanian member that the person who had created this site:
    http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
    He is an IDIOT, read Albanian police and court chronicles.
    The albanian language is not linked with the greek language. The Albanian language is an Indo-European language create a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language.Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.

    Someone as example Zacharie Mayani connect Albanian with Etruscan Les Etrusques commencent a parler (The Etruscans Begin to Speak). Other like French scolar Robert d`Angely connect albanian with Pelasgians
    http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html


    The position of linguists, historians and albanolog (Albanian and foreign) is that albanian are the descendants of the illyrian .
    So this theory of "linguist-ethnologist, clinical nutritionist and author Marios Dimopoulos about the Greek-Pelasgian (Greek-Albanian) civilization, the ancient Greek philosophical view of the world and the creation of a new Hellenic (Greek-Albanian) superstate in Balkan." is a foolish.
    According to Aristir Kola :" there is no greek that don`t have an albanian grandparents." But he refers to modern greeks.
    There is an immutable constant in movement of the population in the Balkans, permanently from the mountains of southern Albania (Epirus), large or small groups of higlanders who descended below on areas of Greece.This phenomenon recorded since ancient times ( Epirotes i.e Illyrians to Thessaly, etc) until nowadays.
    These populations are known in the Middle Ages (when there are more accurate records and when this movement peaked) with the name of Arvanites, i.e Albanians.
    This movement waned during the twentieth century, reaching a minimum during communism, to be exploded after the fall of communism. Today in Greece there are about one million Albanian. There is not any Albanian who was not once in Greece.

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    Yetos;442118]Expansion of E-V13 explained

    by Dienekes

    http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/...explained.html

    You are confusing when a "Y" lineage underwent a major expansion, and when it might have first appeared in an area.

    It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,
    You are apparently using the term "Pelasgian" to refer to the Neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans, which would be a case of inaccurate attribution of the term. If you want to refer to the Neolithic inhabitants (with whatever WHG they had incorporated), then you should do so.

    E-V13 is indeed not too young for the Neolithic in Europe. We've already found it in that context. We haven't yet found it in Neolithic Greece or the Balkans, but it would hardly be surprising since the Cardial migration path went from there to the western Mediterranean.

    G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
    I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.
    Just who is doing this considering? We have yet to find a single ancient J2 sample (i.e.)Neolithic or before anywhere in Europe, so such pronouncements are misplaced.

    Who on earth is saying that the R1a homeland is in the Balkans?

    Based on the ancient samples so far found in Europe, only the "I" and "C" y dna groups are older than the Neolithic.

    Please post relevant scientific papers for your assertions, and when you do post them, please do not change their meaning.


    Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans
    I fail to see the significance of this statement whatsoever.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    How'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the Neolithic and Eneolithic period in Albania?
    In my opinion, its too much of a leap to label Neolithic inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians".

    Lets put the archeology of the Neolithic for a moment to the side and look at the linguistic perspective: if the "Pelasgian" hypothesis (that "there is a common substrate of an ancient language on the Balkans") was true, then you'd find a lexicon of common Albanian and Greek words that are shifted according to the respective sound laws. In another thread over in linguistics (this really doesn't belong here in genetics, in my opinion), Kentel and I recently had a discussion which included common items found in the Celtic and Germanic languages (not elsewhere) which may be 'shared inheritances'. Such "shared inheritances" do to my knowledge not exist for Greek and Albanian (they are in fact, very different Indo-European branches).

    We do have non-Indo-European languages attested from the Aegean (e.g. Minoan and Lemnian, and I said there may have been others), and you might label these languages as "Pelasgian" (which I don't perceive as a particularly smart move, because they have nothing in common), but there is no evidence that would tie these to the area of Albania, or to the Albanian language.

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    Last edited by Maleth; 19-10-14 at 19:00. Reason: more text

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    The average frequency for the E-V13 haplogroup is between 5 and 10%, with few hot spots. Germany and most of Central Eastern Europe follows a similar pattern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

    My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's rare. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "quite rare" in Italy.

    If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

    My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's rare. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "quite rare" in Italy.

    If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.
    Indeed. Also we seem to forget that we have Mtdna's and Grandfathers and Grand Mothers and Great grand fathers and Great grand mothers and so on who probably belong to different haplogroups and have injected their dna to the wonderful homosapiens we are today :).
    Last edited by Maleth; 19-10-14 at 19:17. Reason: typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by king bardhyl View Post
    how'd you to that conclusion? What is the information you have for the neolithic and eneolithic period in albania?

    so, in few words these are the pelasgian and their presence in western balcan.

    you are confusing Kadmeians and PHOENICIA of Illyros
    with aegean, minor asian Pelasgians



    There is no connection among them
    except the Pyrgi tablets

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    I want to explain the albanian member that the person who had created this site:
    http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home
    He is an IDIOT, read Albanian police and court chronicles.
    The albanian language is not linked with the greek language. The Albanian language is an Indo-European language create a branch by itself, sharing its branch with no other extant language.Some Italian researchers (Alberto Areddu Salvatore (Bovore) Mele ) etc, connect Albanian language with Paleosardiniane specially with ancient Sardinia, with isolated areas of Ogliastra and Barbagia.

    Someone as example Zacharie Mayani connect Albanian with Etruscan Les Etrusques commencent a parler (The Etruscans Begin to Speak). Other like French scolar Robert d`Angely connect albanian with Pelasgians
    http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html


    The position of linguists, historians and albanolog (Albanian and foreign) is that albanian are the descendants of the illyrian .
    So this theory of "linguist-ethnologist, clinical nutritionist and author Marios Dimopoulos about the Greek-Pelasgian (Greek-Albanian) civilization, the ancient Greek philosophical view of the world and the creation of a new Hellenic (Greek-Albanian) superstate in Balkan." is a foolish.
    According to Aristir Kola :" there is no greek that don`t have an albanian grandparents." But he refers to modern greeks.
    There is an immutable constant in movement of the population in the Balkans, permanently from the mountains of southern Albania (Epirus), large or small groups of higlanders who descended below on areas of Greece.This phenomenon recorded since ancient times ( Epirotes i.e Illyrians to Thessaly, etc) until nowadays.
    These populations are known in the Middle Ages (when there are more accurate records and when this movement peaked) with the name of Arvanites, i.e Albanians.
    This movement waned during the twentieth century, reaching a minimum during communism, to be exploded after the fall of communism. Today in Greece there are about one million Albanian. There is not any Albanian who was not once in Greece.

    and others like Gatepano connect Albanian with Egyptian,
    and others like A Kollas connect Albanian with Greco-Aryan
    and others like Rassuli connect it with East Balkans,






    WHEN YOU DECIDE WITH WHOM YOU ARE CONNECTED?


    besides Arbanites were according census of 1876 about 54 000 and estimated by global organisations as almost the same today,
    A kolla wrote bullshit, he was a lawer that wanted to play it as linguist,
    for example he wrote that Albanians are pure Greeks and Greeks are not,
    and to confirm that he wrote words to compare like door

    english door
    Alb Dera
    Anc Greek Θυρα
    modern Greek Πορτα (used for house doors, for big doors word Πυλη, and for bigger doors central and outer is Θυρα)
    etc etc

    THE ONLY HE PROVED BY HIS METHOD IS THAT ALBANIAN IS NOT A SOUTH BALKANIC LANGUAGE BUT A NORTH EAST BALKAN LANGUAGE

    cause Dera fits to IE aspirations of Door, a Germano-Slavic,

    not with Homeric Θυρα neither with Romano-celtic Port,

    so A Kolla in his mind believed that Albanians are ancient Greeks,
    but he proved that Albanian IF IS NOT A CREOLE LANGUAGE, is from EAST AND NORTH and possibly away from balkans.

    he made a significant work, but with wrong believes,
    in fact his work proves the oposite, that is why all linguists laugh with him.

    besides soon we might have Georgiev's entire work,
    wich after Duridanov is a remarkable work in Balkanic languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Expansion of E-V13 explained

    by Dienekes

    http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/...explained.html


    an article about EV-13 expansion in Balkans,

    It is too young and to consider it Pelasgian,


    G2 and J2 are considered older in Balkans than R1 (except the R1a but only if we consider it as homeland, and not sink phainomenon, and only in theoritical possibility)
    I1 in Greece has been studied and is found paleolithic and belongs to same 'rare' category as Sardinians and Basques.


    Besides in Homer's Iliad we also see about Ethiopians fight with Myceneans
    the article is 6 years old
    even today there are no reliable expansion dates for Y-DNA
    I hope some day soon they'll be able to compare the full genome of a very old and well-dated skeleton with a dataset of present-day full genomes, and use the age of the skeleton for calibration
    and even then, who says all SNP's in the Y-DNA have the same mutation rate?

    recently neolithic 8000 year old I1 has been found
    I don't think it matches nordtvedts 4500 year old expansion time, unless the neolithic 8000 year old I1 got extinct or it waited another 3500 years for expansion

    sorry to be off-topic here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You took the words, or rather the "map", right out of my mouth. :)

    My U2e mtDna is 1% in most countries, rising to a maximum of 2% in the "hotspots". That's rare. A haplogroup with frequencies in Italy in the 5-10% range, with some areas having 15%, does not make it "quite rare" in Italy.

    If people could keep agendas of one type or another out of genetics discussions, it would be quite helpful.
    Of course it's relative to other countries. Nearly 50% of North Albanians carry the E-V13 haplogroup for example.

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    I have only read that the pelasgians origins are in thessally, they tried to expand south but where stopped by the pre-boetians, they tried to go west and where stoppe dby pre-epirotes and so they headed to modern istanbul ............same place that herodous places them

    thessally was the landing place for people who came from anatolia,
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Subject closed. New evidence

    DSC03207.jpgMy foot 2014-10-05 14.30.47.jpgZeus foot at Athens archeological museum


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Subject closed. New evidence

    DSC03207.jpgMy foot 2014-10-05 14.30.47.jpgZeus foot at Athens archeological museum

    looks greek to me,

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    and others like Gatepano connect Albanian with Egyptian,
    and others like A Kollas connect Albanian with Greco-Aryan
    and others like Rassuli connect it with East Balkans,






    WHEN YOU DECIDE WITH WHOM YOU ARE CONNECTED?


    besides Arbanites were according census of 1876 about 54 000 and estimated by global organisations as almost the same today,
    A kolla wrote bullshit, he was a lawer that wanted to play it as linguist,
    for example he wrote that Albanians are pure Greeks and Greeks are not,
    and to confirm that he wrote words to compare like door

    english door
    Alb Dera
    Anc Greek Θυρα
    modern Greek Πορτα (used for house doors, for big doors word Πυλη, and for bigger doors central and outer is Θυρα)
    etc etc

    THE ONLY HE PROVED BY HIS METHOD IS THAT ALBANIAN IS NOT A SOUTH BALKANIC LANGUAGE BUT A NORTH EAST BALKAN LANGUAGE

    cause Dera fits to IE aspirations of Door, a Germano-Slavic,

    not with Homeric Θυρα neither with Romano-celtic Port,

    so A Kolla in his mind believed that Albanians are ancient Greeks,
    but he proved that Albanian IF IS NOT A CREOLE LANGUAGE, is from EAST AND NORTH and possibly away from balkans.

    he made a significant work, but with wrong believes,
    in fact his work proves the oposite, that is why all linguists laugh with him.

    besides soon we might have Georgiev's entire work,
    wich after Duridanov is a remarkable work in Balkanic languages.
    Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

    According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

    Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

    (Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

    Georgiev argues:

    1) Illyrian toponims from antiquty are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws;

    2) Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian) and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

    3) Marine terms in Albanian is borrowed from different languages suggesting that Albanians were not coastal people;

    4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

    5) There is no reference in any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age;

    6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.

    These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

    Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Subject closed. New evidence

    DSC03207.jpgMy foot 2014-10-05 14.30.47.jpgZeus foot at Athens archeological museum.


    MY LONG LOST BROTHER! No...wait, my first two toes are about the same length. I hate to break this to you Mateth, but my feet are definitely a better match for those of Zeus.(Well, his feet may be rather flat.) But wait again, I thought I had a Greek nose, but the toes were Roman!

    This site is seriously upsetting me and my sense of ethnic identity.

    For anyone who might think to be rude and complain, this is just about and perhaps more scientific than most of the posts on this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    looks greek to me,
    Thats what they say, unless its morton toe they used to consider as a disorder .....but not anymore I think :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    MY LONG LOST BROTHER! No...wait, my first two toes are about the same length. I hate to break this to you Mateth, but my feet are definitely a better match for those of Zeus.(Well, his feet may be rather flat.) But wait again, I thought I had a Greek nose, but the toes were Roman!

    This site is seriously upsetting me and my sense of ethnic identity.

    For anyone who might think to be rude and complain, this is just about and perhaps more scientific than most of the posts on this thread.
    HELLO SISTA.....I Promise Im not going to compare any other body parts with Zeus Thats a great piece of art especially for that era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

    According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

    Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

    (Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

    Georgiev argues:

    1) Illyrian toponims from antiquty are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws;

    2) Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian) and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

    3) Marine terms in Albanian is borrowed from different languages suggesting that Albanians were not coastal people;

    4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

    5) There is no reference in any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age;

    6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.

    These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

    Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.
    I think you are a little off-topic, and your theory is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I have only read that the pelasgians origins are in thessally, they tried to expand south but where stopped by the pre-boetians, they tried to go west and where stoppe dby pre-epirotes and so they headed to modern istanbul ............same place that herodous places them

    thessally was the landing place for people who came from anatolia,


    that is part of the knowledge we have,

    we also know that Athens was inhabited by Pelasgians,
    thoukidides recogn the thyrrenians as pre-Greek athenean language,
    we know the pre-Greek connection of Athens with Minoans,
    and we know that did not participate in troyan war,
    and main of all we know that Attica Orchomenos etc is a pelasgian language.
    Herodotos describe Ionians mostly as the Εθνος πελασγικον,
    we know that Phokaeis and pelasgians lived beside each other,
    we know that island of Lemnos village of Καμινια Caminia was inhabited by Etruscans, who tend to move west,
    and pelasgian mostly occupy the North part of Aeagean, as you already said, the Pelasgian Argos, that is why some connect it with Troyans and Arzawa/Assuwa if the last were not IE speakers, while south was eteo-cretans, but both had connection with minor Asia and Attica,
    that is why tend to speak about eteo-cretans as relatives of pelasgians,

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Bardhyl View Post
    I think you are a little off-topic, and your theory is wrong.
    You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.

    It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.

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