Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 4 of 20 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 494

Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

  1. #76
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,197
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,197, Level: 41
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 753
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks
    Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please?

    Cyrene owes its birth to a Greek Island named Thera in ancient times and which today is known as Santorini, located in the Southern Aegean Sea. As a result of the rise in population that took place in the Greek world during the 8th and 7th century BCE, the Therans became concerned about the effects of overpopulation and dispatched an expedition to the North African region

    http://www.ancient.eu/cyrene/

  2. #77
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Again as this article shows the E-V13 input in north Africa is an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. Also as clearly studies shows that e-v13 is rare in the region. - Next theory please?
    It came from there, but the original population was gone in the meantime. Mediterranean was later colonized by Greek E-V13. We'd have to dig deeper to find the ancestors of E-V13. My guess is Phoenicia.

  3. #78
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,197
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,197, Level: 41
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 753
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It came from there, but the original population was gone in the meantime. Mediterranean was later colonized by Greek E-V13. We'd have to dig deeper to find the ancestors of E-V13. My guess is Phoenicia.
    Phoenicia existed in 1550 BC to 300 BC. Battaglia et al. mentions that E-V13 has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. And more recently (2011), Lacan et al. found that human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dated to approximately 7000 years ago were in the E-V13 branch of E-M78. This means that E-V13 has been around (in Europe) pre Classic Greece era, So how is a Phoenicia (or North Africa) theory possible?

  4. #79
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Phoenicia existed in 1550 BC to 300 BC. Battaglia et al. mentions that E-V13 has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. And more recently (2011), Lacan et al. found that human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dated to approximately 7000 years ago were in the E-V13 branch of E-M78. This means that E-V13 has been around (in Europe) pre Classic Greece era, So how is a Phoenicia (or North Africa) theory possible?
    I'm talking just about location. Don't know how that area was called before that.

  5. #80
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I read E-V13 came via cyrene in North-Africa, a high trading area later on with the ancient Greeks
    Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
    E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

    My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced.


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml

  6. #81
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
    E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

    My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced.


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml
    We keep coming back to this scenario
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008...explained.html
    The dorians inhabited the ancient Albanian lands and they formed E-V13..............the dorians after they moved south settled in many greek places , one part becaming the corinthians

    another post
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  7. #82
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Because currently in north Africa E-V13 is only 1% which makes a good argument that it would not make any sense to come from those regions...at least not for 9,000 years...
    E-V13 (9,000 years) is a subclade of e1b which is 42,000 years....so all human migrations came from Africa...

    My opinion is that E-V13 is the Native of South east balkans for at least 7,000 years which spread around Europe...you have the proven skeleton found on which i have previously sourced.


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...timeline.shtml
    most people where replaced in north Africa by the arabian migration from Arabia to morocco, .......first Negev people, then Egyptians, then greeks, then liby-phonecians, then numidians and finally berbers

  8. #83
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

    Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.
    Georgiev argues:

    4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

    6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.
    1. Of course there are links between greeks and albanians...have you checked the DNA facts that i have listed?....

    2. Although current modern greek and albanian language is quite different, it is argued that both languages are very different with the current modern ones...
    It is argued recently that Greek and Albanian languages are 5,000 years old, it might be possible that they were the same or different tribes living at those regions and also speaking different languages or dialects...
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ml?src=mv&_r=0

    3. Can you send me some same words as with an romanian language?...
    Because albanian language is 5,000 years old romanian language later might have adopted some words from albanian...but again albanian language is very different with the old one....

    As far as i have read there is no link at all with romanians and albanians...at least not genetically, linguistically, nor historically...

    Also, if you look at the E-V13 (and my table) Albanians have actually the highest percentage in the world, and it is clear that E-V13 was spread from the south east balkans and later probably spread up to north west and east....
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 11-11-14 at 05:21.

  9. #84
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,197
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,197, Level: 41
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 753
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    I'm talking just about location. Don't know how that area was called before that.
    Got your point, 10,000 years ago there was no writing so any place names of how the people of the time called there aeras /regions, would have not been known. I believe today these regions are described as near east, levant, South west Asia and so on. It is possible that E-V13 was already mutated by that time in South west Asia (near east) then hopped over to the balkans and multiplied soon after the last glaciation period, but we are far off from any concrete proof of this, and in my opinion until more concrete and reliable studies are conducted will be that the E-V13 mutation occurred in the Balkans proper. Opinions can change as more (reliable) data flows in of course.

  10. #85
    King Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Maleth's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-14
    Location
    Malta
    Posts
    1,919
    Points
    18,197
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,197, Level: 41
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 753
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    EV13 A7136 y18675G+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Country: Malta



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    We keep coming back to this scenario

    another post
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69
    Thank you for posting this interesting info Sile:-

    "On the other hand, E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans"

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

  11. #86
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Got your point, 10,000 years ago there was no writing so any place names of how the people of the time called there aeras /regions, would have not been known. I believe today these regions are described as near east, levant, South west Asia and so on.
    Ye, ye, I was just trying to be precise. Phoenicia, Cyprus or Crete is my guess.

    It is possible that E-V13 was already mutated by that time in South west Asia (near east) then hopped over to the balkans and multiplied soon after the last glaciation period, but we are far off from any concrete proof of this, and in my opinion until more concrete and reliable studies are conducted will be that the E-V13 mutation occurred in the Balkans proper. Opinions can change as more (reliable) data flows in of course.
    My problem with that theory is that for a mutation into E-V13 to happen in Balkans, there has to be a parent clade present (which is E-M78). If there was 100 males with E-M78 in Balkans, and one of them mutated into E-V13, then we'd have a starting ratio of 100:1 in favor of E-M78. Then why do we now have a totaly different ratio? There is 10x less E-M78 in Balkans, which means that E-V13 "prospered" thousand times better then E-M78. What could be explanation for that?

    It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, or that E-V13 came into Balkans as an already formed subclade sometime later. This other hypothesis seems more probable for me.

  12. #87
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    We keep coming back to this scenario
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008...explained.html
    The dorians inhabited the ancient Albanian lands and they formed E-V13..............the dorians after they moved south settled in many greek places , one part becaming the corinthians

    another post
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69

    1. Dinekes is 6 years old, and i am not understanding of what you mean by Dorians who inhabited Albanian lands and formed E-V13?...

    2. Thanks for the second post it said "E-V13 appears to have originated in Greece or the southern Balkans" [13,14]

    3. Then you are mentioning Dorians that formed E-V13 and moved from north to south?....moved from where?...
    According the paper you posted 2011 King et al this is actually the opposite E-V13 was originated in the south and moved up to north and south to Sicily

    4. As current Albanian Speaking regions have the highest E-V13 in the world (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is 47.5%


    FYI we are talking about E-V13 (9,000 years), there there no Albanians at that time nor even ancient greeks, however my opinion is that both greeks and albanians are descendants from E-V13 as a major percentage as they surely might have had a bit of J2 and R1b
    If, lets say later we conclude that most of Ancient greeks gods were not E-V13 and rather J2 or even r1b than we can probably conclude that they have came from either far east or far west and conquered a relatively small population of NATIVE E-V13, which i believe were Pelasgians or whatever name they had...or ancient greek gods where mostly E-V13?...

    (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[19]
    "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric" people from the Pindus Mountains (see the pic)

    pindus-mountains-mixed-forests.png220px-Pelasgians.jpg

  13. #88
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    1. Dinekes is 6 years old, and i am not understanding of what you mean by Dorians who inhabited Albanian lands and formed E-V13?...
    and ?

    Ancient dorian homeland in 1100BC was modern albania , they have found archeology etc there.....I already posted the link before.


    3. Then you are mentioning Dorians that formed E-V13 and moved from north to south?....moved from where?...
    According the paper you posted 2011 King et al this is actually the opposite E-V13 was originated in the south and moved up to north and south to Sicily


    Dorians replaced the Myceneans, the dorians became different greek people, like the corinthians...the corinthians settled in sicliy, the corinthians settled in corfu, the corinthians send trading colonies to ancona in italy, corinthians resettled in modern Albania

    4. As current Albanian Speaking regions have the highest E-V13 in the world (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is 47.5%



    there was no albanians in the bronze-age, the area was doric, the oldest people I know there where dorians.

    FYI we are talking about E-V13 (9,000 years), there there no Albanians at that time nor even ancient greeks, however my opinion is that both greeks and albanians are descendants from E-V13 as a major percentage as they surely might have had a bit of J2 and R1b
    If, lets say later we conclude that most of Ancient greeks gods were not E-V13 and rather J2 or even r1b than we can probably conclude that they have came from either far east or far west and conquered a relatively small population of NATIVE E-V13, which i believe were Pelasgians or whatever name they had...or ancient greek gods where mostly E-V13?...

    I man with E-v13 who became king or chief and had a policy of a concubine system can, in 4 generations multipy 10 fold

    We see this happen as late as the 19th century with the Zulus of africa
    (Ancient Greek: Ἄσιος ὁ Σάμιος) describes Pelasgus as the first man, born of the earth.[19]
    "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric" people from the Pindus Mountains (see the pic)

    pindus-mountains-mixed-forests.png220px-Pelasgians.jpg
    Pindu mountians was home to th molossians...one of the 14 epirote tribes

  14. #89
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, .
    the only one that is logical

  15. #90
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,196
    Points
    39,519
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,519, Level: 61
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 831
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    there is no possibility that Dorians inhabited Albania or came from Albania,

    Georgiev's map is clear




    Dorians had an epithet, Tριχακες meaning from Trikke Τρικαιοι a area in Thessaly near by Epirus
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  16. #91
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ike's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-12-10
    Posts
    1,128
    Points
    4,720
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,720, Level: 20
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 330
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    the only one that is logical
    Indeed is, if we want to fit the theory with the current findings, but what are the probabilities for it to happen? To have a very small M78 population, and at the same time to have V13 mutation happening, and at the same time to have a line of events that would eradicate all M78 except that one V13 which would then spread itself in Balkans? I agree that it is possible, but I'm placing my money on 100x more probable hypothesis, even though current findings suggest different. I don't think that current findings are indicative enough to be conclusive.

  17. #92
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    and ?

    Ancient dorian homeland in 1100BC was modern albania , they have found archeology etc there.....I already posted the link before.

    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]


    Dorians replaced the Myceneans, the dorians became different greek people, like the corinthians...the corinthians settled in sicliy, the corinthians settled in corfu, the corinthians send trading colonies to ancona in italy, corinthians resettled in modern Albania

    I man with E-v13 who became king or chief and had a policy of a concubine system can, in 4 generations multipy 10 fold

    We see this happen as late as the 19th century with the Zulus of africa

    Pindu mountians was home to th molossians...one of the 14 epirote tribes

    Can you send the link please...

    1: Dorians forrmed E-V13?....if they have formed then it couldn't be 1100BC....remember the 7,000 years skeleton was found and it was E-V13...


    2: Dorians were the different kind of Greek people?...what do you mean different...also said became different?...
    We are not trying to find here which tribes became different but to find if Pelazgians where mostly E-V13....
    It is argued that E-V13 was born in the very south of current Greece area then we might argue that (and as we known it was the area of Pelazgians) the current regions (in the table with the highest percentages )are the descendants from there, i assume even before 4,000 years at least...(we might prove this if we find any ancient skeletons to those regions)

    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E-V13
    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5
    Kosovo Albanians 5.5 2.5 0 4.5 21 0 16.5 0 47.5
    Albanians (Macedonia) 1 9 1.5 18.8 1.6 21.9 39.1
    Greece (Peloponnese) 47
    Greece (South) 3 20 2.2 19.6 5.5 43.5
    Greece (North) 2 12 19 14.6 5.2 35.4


    3: So are you arguing that Dorians (ancient greek tribe) are descendants of Albanians?

    There were no Albanians at the early bronze age but there were also no ancient greeks...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_Greece
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


    4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like north Pindus mountain in current Albania up to areas where it is known there are high mountains in south Kosovo and West Macedonia were E-V13 is above 40%...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...
    Last edited by noUseForAname; 15-11-14 at 04:51.

  18. #93
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    20-11-12
    Posts
    577
    Points
    3,220
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,220, Level: 16
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 230
    Overall activity: 19.0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post


    4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like north Pindus mountain in current Albania up to areas where it is known there are very high mountains above 2,000 metres high in south Kosovo and West Macedoni were E-V13 is above 40%...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...
    Finding refuge in mountains is a sign of old archaic haplogroups. like the G branches found in Swiss-Italian Alps. For E-V13 this is also the case if we look at numbers. There is not that much of it left in Europe anymore, since the countries that have it, also have small populations compared to 750 million total of Europe. There is more people with E-V13 in Italy+Spain+France then in the whole Balkans.

  19. #94
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,196
    Points
    39,519
    Level
    61
    Points: 39,519, Level: 61
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 831
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Can you send the link please...

    1: Dorians forrmed E-V13?....if they have formed then it couldn't be 1100BC....remember the 7,000 years skeleton was found and it was E-V13...


    2: Dorians were the different kind of Greek people?...what do you mean different...also said became different?...
    We are not trying to find here which tribes became different but to find if Pelazgians where mostly E-V13....
    It is argued that E-V13 was born in the very south of current Greece area then we might argue that (and as we known it was the area of Pelazgians) the current regions (in the table with the highest percentages )are the descendants from there, i assume even before 4,000 years at least...(we might prove this if we find any ancient skeletons to those regions)

    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E-V13
    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5
    Kosovo Albanians 5.5 2.5 0 4.5 21 0 16.5 0 47.5
    Albanians (Macedonia) 1 9 1.5 18.8 1.6 21.9 39.1
    Greece (Peloponnese) 47
    Greece (South) 3 20 2.2 19.6 5.5 43.5
    Greece (North) 2 12 19 14.6 5.2 35.4


    3: So are you arguing that Dorians (ancient greek tribe) are descendants of Albanians?
    There were no Albanians at the early bronze age but there were also no ancient greeks...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_Greece
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


    4: Yet again we are not trying to decipher lots of different tribes...It is certain that as per Homer map Pelasgians (known that they were barbaric people living in the mountains) were specifically in the area of Pindus mountains. You can see that at Pindus Mountains South Greece E-V13 is 43.5%....then i assume spread specifically in the high mountains like north Pindus mountain in current Albania up to areas where it is known there are very high mountains above 2,000 metres high in south Kosovo and West Macedoni were E-V13 is above 40%...check the table and me Mountains in those regions...
    i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
    some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

  20. #95
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,346
    Points
    36,232
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,232, Level: 58
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 418
    Overall activity: 32.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think too the 'pelasgian' label doesn't tell us a lot... as very often it is a exogamic name

    concerning Y-E-V13 I have not too much to add to what was said - someones here put solid arguments and we have now to wait for a chanceous ancient DNA in the right places and times -
    here under a discussion I found in the forum "For what they were we are" - maybe I have red to quickly but I didn't see Y-DNA SNPs in it - but could it explain an old BUT neolithic presence of y-E1b and subclades in Europe??? just to feed the "war" (keep cool, it's my aperitive hour)



    There are severalinteresting studies in my "to do" list and I will becommenting them in the following days (I am quite busy these weeksand therefore I concentrate my efforts on weekends).


    In this entry we have arather interesting analysis of ancient mtDNA from the Pre-PotteryNeolithic B of Syria (NE and South) and its legacy on modernpopulations of West Asia and SE Europe, as well as on ancientEuropean Neolithic ones.


    Eva Fernández et al.,Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern FarmersSupports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of MainlandEurope through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands. PLoSGenetics 2014. Open accessLINK[doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401]


    I understand that thesequences are not really new but that they were first discussed inFernández 2005 (thesisin Spanish) and 2008.What is new is the comparison with ancient and modern populations insearch of their possible legacy.


    Early PPNB (from CONTEXT C14 database)
    In spite of the relevanceof this analysis, it must be cautioned thaPPNBancient mtDNA and its legacyt the Tell Ramad and Tell Halulasites may not be fully representative of the actual genetic diversityof PPNB as a whole, a cultural area that spanned all the Levant, fromthe Kurdish mountains to the Sinai and Cyprus.


    If, as the authors argueand I have already suggested in relation to the NE African affinitiesof European Neolithic ancestry, the arrival of Neolithic to Thessalyhappened via a coastal route, inland PPNB sites may well not be asinformative as Palestinian or Cypriot ones.


    But this is what we havefor now, so let's see what these ancient Syrian farmers tell us,while we await further Neolithic sequences from potentially morerelevant sites.


    Table 1. Mitochondrial DNA typing of 15 Near Eastern PPNB skeletons.


    40% of the sequencesbelong to haplogroup K, a U8-derived lineage unknown in Europe beforethe Neolithic. Most of the other lineages (40%) belong to R0 but halfof them belong to R0(xHV), extremely rare in Europe (common in Arabiainstead) and the H sequences cannot be identified either withanything common nowadays. The remaining 20% of lineages (U*, N* andL3*) are not too helpful either.


    So when the authorscompare them with modern and ancient populations most of the affinitycorresponds to a single basal haplotype of K (16224C,16311C)as described in supplementary table 5.


    Figure 2. Contour map displaying the percentage of individuals of the database carrying PPNB haplotypes.
    Only populations with clear geographic distribution were included. Gradients indicate the degree of similarity between PPNB and modern populations (dark: high; clear: small).


    The SE European and WestAsian populations with the greatest legacy of this haplotype are: theCsángó ofMoldavia (22%), Cypriots (13%), Ashkenazi Jews (11%), Crimean Tatars(10%) and Georgians (9%). Cardium Pottery farmers from Catalonia(23%) and a pooled Central European Danubian Neolithic sample (10%)also score high for this lineage.


    Some other PPNB matrilineages also show some lessermodern prevalence:

    • 16223T (L3) → Qatar, Yemen (not necessarily the same L3(xM,N) lineage, it must be said)
    • 16224C,16311C,16366T (K) → Druze
    • 16256T (H) → Bedouin

    The other haplotypes havenot been detected in modern nor European Neolithic populations.


    The obvious conclusion isthat only the 16224C+16311C K haplotype was, of all the EuphratesPPNB lineages active in the Neolithic European founder effect. Thishaplotype was present only in 1/15 individuals from the EuphratesPPNB, so rather marginal over there, although a close relative foundtoday among the Druze was more common (3/15).


    Another conclusion isthat the Csángó probably have a quite direct line ofancestry to the early European farmers, shedding some light on theorigin of this mysterious population at risk of extinction.


    The coastal route toThessaly proposed here makes all sense to me because, on oneside, early Anatolian Neolithic cultures do not seem to have anyobvious cultural affinity with the first European Neolithic of Sesklo(Painted Pottery) and Otzaki (Cardium Pottery), and, on the otherside, there is clear evidence of some NE African genetic legacymediated by Palestine: Y-DNA E1b-V13 naturally but also the "BasalEurasian" speculation of Lazaridisthat ended up being revealed as Dinka affinity in fig. S7 of Skoglund& Malström.


    This theory can only bestrongly confirmed if Palestinian and Cypriot ancient DNA issequenced and fits well in it. Similarly ancient Balcanic DNA wouldbe most interesting to have as well for a more direct reference. But,in any case, the theory seems at the very least plausible andsupported by some important evidence.


    My hypothetical reconstruction of a plausible coastal route of Neolithic towards Thessaly (dashed red line)
    on a base map of Middle PPNB from the CONTEXT database.


    It is also important tonotice that the Syrian PPNB sequences are different from the modernmtDNA pool of West Asia, dominated by lineages like J, T1 and U3.This suggests that, at the very least in this region of the SyrianEuphrates, there have been important demographic changes sinceNeolithic, something confirmed by data from the same are but of laterdates (which anyhow is not yet modern either).


    Fernández et al. discuss this issue in some detail:
    Our PPNB population includes a high percentage(80%) of lineages with a Palaeolithic coalescence age (K, R0 and U*)and differs from the current populations from the same area, whichexhibit a high frequency of mitochondrial haplogroups J, T1 and U3(TableS7). The latter have been traditionallylinked with the Neolithic expansion due to their younger coalescenceage, diversity and geographic distribution [11],[12],[49].In addition to the PPNB population, haplogroup T1 is also absent inother Early Neolithic populations analyzed so far [17],[22],[26],[30].Haplogroup U3 has been found only in one LBK individual and it hasbeen suggested that it could have been already part of thepre-Neolithic Central European mitochondrial background[19].

    HaplogroupJ is present in moderate frequencies in Central European LBK-AVKpopulations (11.75%) and it has been proposed as part of the CentralEuropean “mitochondrial Neolithic package” [19].However, it has also been described in one late hunter-gathererspecimen of Germany, raising the possibility of a pre-Neolithicorigin [23].Haplogroup J is present in low frequency (4%) in Cardial/EpicardialNeolithic samples of North Eastern Spain [27],[28],[31].Absence of Mesolithic samples from the same region prevents makingany inference about its emergence during the Mesolithic or theNeolithic. However, its absence in the PPNB genetic backgroundreinforces the first hypothesis.

    Thesefindings suggest that (1) late Neolithic or post-Neolithicdemographic processes rather than the original Neolithic expansionmight have been responsible for the current distribution ofmitochondrial haplogroups J, T1 and U3 in Europe and the Near Eastand (2) lineages with Late Paleolithic coalescent times might haveplayed an important role in the Neolithic expansive process. Thefirst suggestion alerts against the use of modern Near Easternpopulations as representative of the genetic stock of the firstNeolithic farmers while the second will be explored in depth in thefollowing section.

    From the viewpoint ofmaterial Prehistory, it is of course correct, that PPNB wasoverwhelmed by later cultural processes, which may have implied demicexpansions and replacements of some sort, even if many of them seemto originate within West Asia.


    First of all, there isthe Halafian cultural expansion, originating in Upper Mesopotamia;then we also have to consider the Semitic cultural and linguisticexpansion, originating in Palestine; finally we have to consider theIndoeuropean waves: first the Anatolian group (Hittites, etc.) viathe Caucasus, later the Balcanic group of Phrygians (and probablyArmenians as derived branch) and finally the Iranian one from CentralAsia. Even within the Semitic expansion there were probably severalwaves as well. All together must have significantly reshuffled thegenetic landscape of the region.


    But unless we get moreancient West Asian DNA it will be most difficult to discern clearlyhow all that played out. After all the Syrian Euphrates can beexceptional in many aspects, being right in the middle of all: a truepivot of the Fertile Crescent, subject to pressure from alldirections.

    AT FIRST SIGHT it doesn' t fit the maximum of diversity of E1-V13 (a spot in Montenegro)
    ​I'll try to think again about it but...

  21. #96
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Great job Moesan, good compilation on first farmers.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post

    First of all, there isthe Halafian cultural expansion, originating in Upper Mesopotamia;then we also have to consider the Semitic cultural and linguisticexpansion, originating in Palestine; finally we have to consider theIndoeuropean waves: first the Anatolian group (Hittites, etc.) viathe Caucasus, later the Balcanic group of Phrygians (and probablyArmenians as derived branch) and finally the Iranian one from CentralAsia. Even within the Semitic expansion there were probably severalwaves as well. All together must have significantly reshuffled thegenetic landscape of the region.
    On scale of few thousand years dominant haplogroups change dramatically. I came to accept the fact, which is very transparent from latest research papers, that effect of fading and exploding of new haplogroups is more important than population movement. Sure population movements will introduce new hgs into natives, but the rest is done by founder effects or most successful hg effect, I suppose. Most notable example is explosion of I2a Dinaric in Balkans, or R1b L21 in England to over 50% of male population in some areas. At the same time popular in Paleolithic hg C is gone, though hg I is still successful. Very populous and successful Neolithic hg G2 seems to be in minority everywhere these days, and few other farmers' haplogroups, except new clades of EV13.
    Thinking along these lines perhaps the first of farmers were J1 people, that's why this hg is widespread but fairly rare now?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  22. #97
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    AT FIRST SIGHT it doesn' t fit the maximum of diversity of E1-V13 (a spot in Montenegro)
    ​I'll try to think again about it but...
    G2 and J1 fit this scenario too.

  23. #98
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,346
    Points
    36,232
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,232, Level: 58
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 418
    Overall activity: 32.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    G2 and J1 fit this scenario too.
    sensible points
    I post this abstract only to show there could have been (THERE HAVE BEEN) more than a Neolithical wave into Europe from Anatolia and maybe directly from Near-Eastern -
    that said, it seems to me that mt-HGs are finally less "deletere" than the Y-HGs - these last ones vary certainly less rapidly in today satured and "softened" Europe than in ancient times where they were linked to a male elite, mostly in the metals times of warlike tribes but even in Neolithical times -

  24. #99
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,346
    Points
    36,232
    Level
    58
    Points: 36,232, Level: 58
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 418
    Overall activity: 32.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    That said I put this in this topic where a a big part was given to Y-E-V13 and ancestors, because of the first supposed position of these early farmers (PPN):
    central coastal Levant and proximity of Lebanon so Druzes, and proximity of Egypt... as a whole, compare do "northern" G and eastern J, E is more coastal and western -

  25. #100
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    26-08-14
    Posts
    200
    Points
    7,381
    Level
    25
    Points: 7,381, Level: 25
    Level completed: 67%, Points required for next Level: 169
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Finding refuge in mountains is a sign of old archaic haplogroups. like the G branches found in Swiss-Italian Alps. For E-V13 this is also the case if we look at numbers. There is not that much of it left in Europe anymore, since the countries that have it, also have small populations compared to 750 million total of Europe. There is more people with E-V13 in Italy+Spain+France then in the whole Balkans.
    I dont think about Spain and France it is very low there....and those are very big countries to compare with, the key is to find the highest percentages in populations which might show or help us in their migrations...For example R1a thought to be born in central Russia or west Asia is very high in current central Russians with over 50%...

    As per Italy...I have found very high E-V13 in some areas above 28% (see table) and it might have helped to some degree a pretty large migrations of Albanians to Sicily, Calabria and Puglia (see the Italian documentary at minute 6:00).......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGY1lUP_U-Q
    Italians (South) IE (Italic) 68 25.0 3.0 6.0 26.0 15.0 3.0 Zalloua2008[31]
    Italians (Sicily) IE (Italic) 8.8 27.3 23.8 Semino2004[8]
    Italians (East Sicily) IE (Italic) 87 20.0 2.3 5.0 29.0 5.0 5.0 Zalloua2008[31]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

Page 4 of 20 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •