Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

But comprehensive research conducted by New Zealand scientists says different.

According that study Albanian has the same roots as Indo-Iranian languages, for example Baluchi (Iranian) or Singhalese (Indic), neither Greek nor Armenian.

This could mean that Albanian is not Balkan language and the ancestors of today's Albanians originating from the today's territory of Northwest Iran or the Southeast Caucasus, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

On the other hand according these scholars Greek and Armenian have same root but they were separated more than 4000 years BC.

Can you cite the source please, i am very interested to read, from all the scientific papers and research at least 9 out of 10 argue that Albanian language is a separate branch of indo European and split from Hellenic (not modern greek) at least 3,000 ybp. You have obviously found a needle in the sea lol, however i urge you to find some more...
 
  • Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Norwegians have a higher combined percentage of R1a + R1b than Belarussians and Ukrainians. Plenty of Central Asians invaded eastern Europe over the last 5000 years, almost completely eliminating R1b in the region. I explained 5 years ago that this was why R1b was so low today in its original homeland.

    The huge Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture didn't just vanish in thin air. They were gradually absorbed by PIE people (probably already since the Globular Amphora culture). Don't forget that Cucuteni-Trypillian towns were the largest in the world at the time. That explains the very significant percentage of both male and female Near Eastern lineages in western Ukraine and southern Belarus today.

    Additionally, Ukrainians also have partial Greek ancestry in the south (lots of J2a).

    It is especially northern Belarus and eastern Ukraine that are very high in R1a, and that is just a sign of higher recent Slavic ancestry, not a sign of more surviving Yamna ancestry. The Slavic branch descends from the Corded Ware and Abashevo cultures, not from Yamna.



    Are you saying that most of Greeks are descends of J2a?....if so any more info related to this?....i would gladly appreciate it....​


  • quote_icon.png
    Originally Posted by Alan
    I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

    Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


    Would this table had an explanation as the following below?

    1: Most of Early Neolithic (9,000 years) - were already populated and lived (majority) at the current modern populations (and locations) such as: Sardinian, Tuscan, Greek, Albanian, Bergamo, Spanish, South French, Basque. it looks like, more south is more ancient. Doesn't that explain that all the R1b or R1a expansion came much later to Europe?..then it would look like the R lineage came from central Asia above the baltic and through steppe as Maciamo noted (and not through Asia minor). and J2 migrated even much later towards Europe?

    Then would anyone argue which is the major Y Dna in these south regions already within early Neolithic?

    2. There are 2 hypothesis for the roots of indoEuropean language (9,000 years): north of Black sea and south west Anatolia....recent study is pretty conclusive about the south west Anatolia. This might correlate with migrations and Cultures spreading from south west Anatolia to east forming Mesopotamia (6,000 years) and west possibly forming Vinca Culture (7,500 years).

    I suppose after migration to Mesopotamia, at the same time another big migration went through Caucus above Black Sea and through the Steppe around 6,000 years ago (Maciamo noted 4,000 years ago) (probably majority of R1b and R1a)

    On the other side migration from south west Anatolia through south east balkans 7,500 years ago forming Vinca culture, although there is no evidence yet that they spoke indo european. Might this group be E-V13?.... as we know so far it is 10,000 years old and its roots are the far south east balkans.


    http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf
    https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/





 
Originally Posted by Angela
If you look at the chart on page 25, the division is very clear. The orange is Neolithic Farmer, although I don't know if it's exactly the same as the component in the prior Lazardis paper. Here, the standard is Starcevo and LBKT, and thus Stuttgart shows a little WHG, as does the Spanish early Neolithic. Still, it's Early Neolithic Farmer in Europe and EEF is the closest term, as Alan pointed out above. The blue is, of course, WHG, based on Loschbour. The green is Yamnaya. That component is not based on the R1b1 hunter gatherer who was so similar to the R1a1 hunter gatherer but who was, indeed, found in the Samara Valley. The green Yamnaya component is based on the later and downstream R1b samples from Yamnaya, and thus autosomally are half Eastern Hunter Gatherer and half "Near Eastern". I agree with Alan that this is the "West Asian" component that Dienekes has been chasing all these years. In my opinion, however, it should not be seen as some totally foreign component. I think they could have extracted the majority EEF like component.


(Alan is also right that ENF has no place in the discussion. That is a component found through modeling by Eurogenes. It is not, unlike these components, based on an ancient set of genomes.)

It's interesting that a little sliver of Yamnaya made it into the Gamba samples. You can also see how the blue WHG component made something of a comeback in the MN of Germany. Obviously, that didn't happen in other areas. Then there's the big explosion of it with Corded Ware, and lower levels in Bell Beaker.

There are all sorts of questions that arise as to why individual groups have their own particular set of percentages, as well. The Greeks (I believe the samples were taken in a northern part of the mainland) and the Albanians, for instance, why do they have less Yamnaya, when in addition to what might have come originally, they were invaded by Slavic speaking tribes who would have carried some with them? Also, why do they have more WHG than their immediate neighbors? The PCA is also interesting:

The PCA is also interesting:
Attachment 7074
You can see how the later Yamnaya samples cluster right between the EHGs and the Near Easterners.
Does anyone know, by the way, where the authors talk about the percentage of population replacement in the south?


noUseForAname

Great point Angela...
Greeks and Albanians have less later Yamna maybe cause (if we can suppose this way) as the predominant % of their dna is E-V13 (over 40%), if we add another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% EEF and WHG.
Yamna is only 15% (graph above) and it could be mainly through R1b and R1a, however it tops 25% (Greek and Albanian), we miss the 10%, maybe the 10% (R1b or R1a) was already at those regions before Yamna?
Then how about J2 which has 18%?...i don't have any comments here for now...

Albanians have mostly E-V13 (39%) Modern Greeks (19%), then R1b (18.6%) Modern Greeks (11.7%) migrated from steppe, then J2 (18.6%) Modern Greeks (17%) from middle east and in the end slavic tribes R1a (5%) Modern Greeks (16%)
now historically speaking modern greeks were slavinized (R1a) much more than the Albanians
 
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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Sile
in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations

CultureCountryYBPHgSimple hgN
Mesolithic_HGLuxembourg8'000I2a1b-L178I21
Early_NeolithicHungary7'700I2a-L460I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1-P37.2I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1a1a-L672I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1b-M423I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1b2a1-L147.2I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2c2-PF3827I25
Early_NeolithicHungary7'600H2-L281H21
Early_NeolithicSpain7'300F*-P135F*1
Early_NeolithicSpain7'300I2a1b1-L161.1I21
Early_NeolithicGermany7'200T1a-PF5604T1
Early_NeolithicGermany7'100G2a2a-PF3147G2a1
Early_NeolithicGermany7'100G2a2a-PF3185G2a1
Early_NeolithicGermany7'100G2a2a1-PF3170G2a1
Early_NeolithicHungary7'100C1a2-V20/V184C12
Early_NeolithicSpain7'100R1b1-M415R1b11
Early_NeolithicGermany7'000G2a2a1-PF3155G2a1
Early_NeolithicSpain7'000E1b1b1a1b1a-V13E1b1b1
Early_NeolithicSpain7'000G2a-P15G2a5
Early_NeolithicSpain6'900C1a2-V20C11
Early_NeolithicHungary6'400I2a-L460I21
Early_NeolithicGermany6'300F-M89F*2
Early_NeolithicGermany6'200G2a2b-S126G2a1



So if Maciamo haplogroup timeline is correct, and according to early neolithic skeletons found:

1: Can we say that the early Neolithic people indigenous natives of Europe (at least as per ybp noted) are E-V13 (10,000 ybp) G2a2 (9,000) and I2a1 (8.000 ybp) ?
Current populations with highest I2a are:

Bosnian Croats 71%
Bosnians 56%
Sardinians 42.3%
Norwegians 40.2%
Swedes 40%
Danes 38.7%
Slovenians 38.7%
Croats 37%
Serbians 33%
Bosnians Serbs 31%
Icelanders 34%
Dutch 32.9%
Sami 31%
Peak or roots of I2a1 seems to be current Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and south west Serbia
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the 5 of them in Sweeden.


Current Populations with highest G2a2 are:
Osetians 60%
Georgians 32%
Although G2a2 already in Europe at the early Neolithic its roots looks like its current Georgia and Osetia (caucasus mountains)
And it has much lower numbers with that of E-V13 and !2a1


Current populations with highest E-V13 are:
Albanians in Kosovo 47.3%
Albanians in Macedonia 39%
Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania 39%
Greeks in Greece 31%
Italians in Sicily 27.3%
Peak or roots of E-V13 seems to be current borders of Kosovo, west Macedonia, Albania, Greece (especially Peloponnese and south Greece with higher %)
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the one in Spain


2: Then came the migrations at early 5,000 ybp with R1 across black sea through Yamna

3:
Then looks like J2 migrated the latest from middle east to Europe​


for more quality info please go below..

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22
 
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Looks like obviously you dont get my point, i never said first civilizations spread from the balkans cause obviously civilization in Mesopotamia and Egypt is much different then the one say Vinca Culture. But we were arguing cause you said archeology doesnt lie about Egypt and Mesapotamia, and i replied with "you are wrong" cause Vinca Culture predates 8,000 ybp and the archeology is there it doesnt lie, not with high pyramids nor high tech buildings nor high tech cultures (lol) but it has buildings objects and scripts, and as of now its not deciphered that it is from indo european language, but surely those people had their mouth to speak, so they could write and read through those scripts.
Yet again not through some high tech archeological buildings and cultures Europe is de facto older than Egypt and Mesopotamia, and thats Vinca Culture. Do you agree or disagree please?

http://www.ancient-origins.net/anci...vilisation-script-oldest-writing-world-001343

You are missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the Vinca symbols are older than Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Mesopotamian cuneiform. However, I will dispute that the Vinca symbols were the ancestor of these two scripts, instead, the Vinca symbols disappeared without any descendants. Also, I find it questionable that the Vinca symbol constitute a true writing system, and I find it even more doubtful that they would represent Indo-European (they are also far too old for being Proto-Indo-European, in my opinion). As I said, the oldest "true" European writing system is Linear A (for writing Minoan), which is of course several millennia younger than Vinca.
 
You are missing my point entirely. Yes, I agree that the Vinca symbols are older than Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Mesopotamian cuneiform. However, I will dispute that the Vinca symbols were the ancestor of these two scripts, instead, the Vinca symbols disappeared without any descendants. Also, I find it questionable that the Vinca symbol constitute a true writing system, and I find it even more doubtful that they would represent Indo-European (they are also far too old for being Proto-Indo-European, in my opinion). As I said, the oldest "true" European writing system is Linear A (for writing Minoan), which is of course several millennia younger than Vinca.

Thank you for agreeing (at last), my point was not to argue about higher level Culture and higher level writing system, but call it a low level Culture or otherwise its still a culture and Vinca Culture is the oldest as of now.
And it might mean that surely they were not R* lineage nor J2, the only possibility would be I2a1 G2a2 or E-V13

Your point about true PEI (Minoan) might be rejected by the recent (major scale study) that PEI didnt came to Europe before 4,500, and it was through Yamna. And crossing through the steppe to Crete (Minoan) would probably had take much and much more time.
http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of meanings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language...
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands.
That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete.

Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European.

It could also mean that Anciant Greek (PEI) language came there at around 3,000 ybp from the steppe through Yamna

Therefore i only suppose that indigenous native inhabitants (Neolithic) of those areas were mostly E-V13 (probably small numbers and spread around Europe) untill at least 3,000 ybp period, then came the R* lineage who brought higher civilization and PEI through Yamna and were probably more in numbers. It might also be that the majority of Yamna were R1b with some R1a and J2. Therefore population grew much faster with the coming of R1b J2 and R1a.

I still argue from the starting of this thread That Pelasgians were the indigenous inhabitants before Ancient Greeks came, and now with the newest study it makes even more sense that they came through Yamna with PEI. Maciamo noted that Ancient greeks might have J2 as its major group, i argue it could be either J2 or R1b. (if we find the ancient greek skeletons we would know)
Therefore i argue (as only one possibility is arisen), that Pelazgians or whatever they were called are the descendent of E-V13 and they were Neolithic inhabitants of current locations of Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

To put in one word and not taking into account the later names like Greeks and Albanians, before 3,000 ybp there were inhabitants called Pellazgians, then through Yamna and its population the new name ancient greeks or Mycenaean appeared (who mostly were these new inhabitants who conquered Pelazgian regions). Then we have modern Greeks or Hellenes who mostly descend from inhabitants of Yamna (who were called Ancient Greeks) and they also descend from Pelazgians in smaller numbers. And then the later name called Albanians (1,000 ybp) appeared (as of written text found) who genetically (majority) looks like have a direct descend from Pelazgians as their E-V13 is highest in the world. These also coralates with the most studies that although both PEI Albanian and Ancient greek or Mycenean language were already split 3,000 ybp.
 
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Thank you for agreeing (at last l), my point was not to argue about higher level Culture and higher level writing system, but call it a low level Culture or otherwise its still a culture and Vinca Culture is the oldest as of now.
And it might mean that surely they were not R* lineage nor J2, the only possibility would be I2a1 G2a2 or E-V13

Your point about true PEI Minoan) might be rejected by the recent (major scale study) that PEI didnt came to Europe before 4,500, and it was through Yamna. And crossing through the steppe to Crete Minoan) would probably had take much and much more time.
http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124

This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of menaings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language...
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands.
That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete.

Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European.


what?

how you exclude J2?
in fact J2 is the main HG that might be the Pelasgians, since is connected with all naval and historical possiblities of sea peoples,

E-V13 is found in Iberia not in balkans or in minor asia,

IT IS LATER THAN HETTIT, BY THE FACTS,

ONLY BY ASSUPTION WE DARE TO SAY IT NEOLITHIC IN BALKANS,
NO EVIDENCE THAT EXISTED IN NEOLITHIC BALKANS OR MINOR ASIA

AND CAN YOU GIVE A LINK ABOUT PELASGIANS IN DODONA?
CAUSE MAINLY ARE MENTIONED AS MINOR ASIA AND AEGEAN,

cause Δωδωνη is the homeland of Greek/Hellenic language according all Linguists, and not home of Pelasgians


the thing is that Pelasgians lived in Aegean before Hellenes, but keep coming even at the times after Myceneans
by the remnants in cyclades Islands we know that start decreasing after the sea peoples era, and around 700 BC existed few towns/villages, or where Hellenized
and by the connection with others we know that were not Vinca's although they knew and trade with Varna
Vinca's might the ones called καυκωνες

the most possible if we compare Hettit with Mycenean archaiological is that Pelasgians are connected with Τελχινοι, Αριμαιοι Κρανοι and generally Hatti or Arzawa/assuwa
Κρανοι might means helmet wearers (we knew pelasgians as also thyrrenians wear extraordinary helmets)
or from Κραγος mountain Cragus,
τελχινοι were people considered as half human half snake, or half human half fish(dolphin) (compare medussa, gorgon etc)
both are also found in Thyrrenia and minor Asia palaces

considering that these areas Agean N Greece, Crete, lower Thrace, SW minor Asia lack or have low E-V13 but high J2 then is more possible Pelasgians to was J2 than E-V13
that also fits with the rest areas of the possible Sea Peoples like Phillistine Cyllikia except Sardinia,
 
I2a DYN S is not Croatian... Croatian is I2a1b2a1a3 A356 which has earlier mutation I-Y3548 that occurs and originate in White Croatia..It is the logic...

This is pure nonsense, it can only be used for nationalist myths and nothing more.

Haplogroups and present nations are completely different things.

Did common ancestor was Serb, Croat, Pole, German, Lithuanian etc.?

Wrong.

Because nations have formed much later, they are social constructions not genetic.

And we cannot ever know about nationality of common ancestor.

Nationalists can bang their heads for years, and life passes and they have not done anything useful.

Place of origin?

It proves nothing, only for nationalistic myths.

People were moving, changing places and mixing.

In one tribe, someone could find people with different haplogroups and origin.

For example, over time, in the tribe could become dominant descendants of a stranger that has nothing to do with the original members of the tribe.

Are the carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, Americans, Germans etc.

Yes, members of different nations in the world can be carriers, who cares.

Of course, Croats, Serbs, Bosniacs are close but unfortunately according the recent history far from friendly, other factors affecting, and here is the crucial religious moment.
...

Those who attempt to bind the nation with haplogroup they fall into an unsolvable problem.

What to do with carriers of different of haplogroups?

For example by false logic E-V13, J2, R1b etc. carriers, (42% males in Croatia) cannot be Croats (all the same for Serbs, Poles. etc., all nations).

But again, this is pure nonsense, wrong logic.
 
What to do with carriers of different of haplogroups?

For example by false logic E-V13, J2, R1b etc. carriers, (42% males in Croatia) cannot be Croats (all the same for Serbs, Poles. etc., all nations).

But again, this is pure nonsense, wrong logic.


E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..
 
E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


???
example
I am G2a3a, must I go back to Caucas?
and my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I baptise him Albanian?
and my other neighbor is I2b1, should he be Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bulgarian? or Polish Ukrainian?
 
The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic and unrelated to the eastern branch. If we are talking for the same period then how did it get there?..... as with the newest Yamna theory all the European languages derived from the steppe and corded ware 4,500 ybp and spread PEI into Europe. This looks like its the contrary to what i thought that PEI came to regions of Greece and Albania through Yamna and the steppe at least 3,000 ybp. Or it might have got there before Yamna, which might be possible as south east Anatolia is very close to Greece and Albania. Any other scientific source and commenting would be gladly appreciated

[video=youtube;vDgMTVnUnIU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1847&v=vDgMTVnUnIU[/video]


http://www.haaretz.com/life/archaeology/1.645124
http://www.shh.mpg.de/36925/Nature_02_2015

industries_research_150303_Indo%20European%20Ancient%20DNA_thumbnail-2.jpg
 
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???
example
I am G2a3a, must I go back to Caucas?
and my neighbor is Palestinian with E-V13, should I baptise him Albanian?
and my other neighbor is I2b1, should he be Croat, Serb, Bosnian, Bulgarian? or Polish Ukrainian?

With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779
 
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quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Sile
in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations

CultureCountryYBPHgSimple hgN
Mesolithic_HGLuxembourg8'000I2a1b-L178I21
Early_NeolithicHungary7'700I2a-L460I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1-P37.2I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1a1a-L672I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1b-M423I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2a1b2a1-L147.2I21
Hunter_GathererSweden7'700I2c2-PF3827I25
Early_NeolithicHungary7'600H2-L281H21
Early_NeolithicSpain7'300F*-P135F*1
Early_NeolithicSpain7'300I2a1b1-L161.1I21
Early_NeolithicGermany7'200T1a-PF5604T1
Early_NeolithicGermany7'100G2a2a-PF3147G2a1
Early_NeolithicGermany7'100G2a2a-PF3185G2a1
Early_NeolithicGermany7'100G2a2a1-PF3170G2a1
Early_NeolithicHungary7'100C1a2-V20/V184C12
Early_NeolithicSpain7'100R1b1-M415R1b11
Early_NeolithicGermany7'000G2a2a1-PF3155G2a1
Early_NeolithicSpain7'000E1b1b1a1b1a-V13E1b1b1
Early_NeolithicSpain7'000G2a-P15G2a5
Early_NeolithicSpain6'900C1a2-V20C11
Early_NeolithicHungary6'400I2a-L460I21
Early_NeolithicGermany6'300F-M89F*2
Early_NeolithicGermany6'200G2a2b-S126G2a1


Do not forget that all the sites that have been studied are more or less alps and above were dna was possible to be extracted. The Spanish one was lucky as it was far north bordering on France. Here you are discussing a half baked story (Just to be generous) When one considers the climate conditions of a mere few thousands years ago there is so much yet you to discover south the Alps were hardly any dna have been taken yet (and that includes Middle east and North Africa) and were it seems that life was more populous. At this stage until we have the full picture no one can come to any final conclusions. Just speculation and assumptions, although we can say we can have a part of the picture but far off from a whole one.
 
In area of Ilirik, Dalmatia and Pannonia is maximum haplotypes which comes from White Croatia...Therefore claim of Porfirogenet that Croats inhabited Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia is correct...
That could be correct if those people came from White Croataia 50 years ago, and if Porphyrogenitus lived to write about it some 40 years ago. But, since we don't know what was the genetic background of White Croatia 1500 years ago, and since we are not even 100% sure where it was, it is only an assumption.


ahaha biggest nationalists in the history of Croatia, Croatian fascists are exactly Dalmatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina to Drina River seen as epicenter of Croatian people, what kind Zagreb hahaha...and without genetic research, it is now clear that they were right ... Genetics is relentless..

Your history spans back only 30-70 years.

If that was the "epicenter of Croatian people", why isn't it in Croatia today? Why had Croatia fought to capture territories of Krajina which were +80% Serbian in majority, and left the core of Croatian nationality (which was 95% Croatian) out of the Croatian borders? There were no Serbian or Bosniak soldiers there, Croatians had a sovereignty over there.


Do you have information that in Croatia arrived Vlachs or Albanians...hhahaha
They are Albanian origin and they did not come as Albanians but Vlachs therefore I call them Vlachs...logic

Vlach and Albanians are not the same.
 
This might also correlate with already placed Archaic language (or symbols) in those areas and not PEI, Probably like Lemnos steele or other native archaic language or (symbols of meanings), some argue Pelazgians had their own archaic writings or scripts or symbols. Surely not PEI.

And then the later name called Albanians (1,000 ybp) appeared (as of written text found) who genetically (majority) looks like have a direct descend from Pelazgians as their E-V13 is highest in the world. These also coralates with the most studies that although both PEI Albanian and Ancient greek or Mycenean language were already split 3,000 ybp.

OK, we had Pelasgians who were surely not IE, and now we have their "direct descendants" Albanians who are PIE, but separate brunch from other bordering peoples. How did Pelasgians start to speak this new language? What people came and learned them to speak it, and gave them a new name?
 
With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

@ maleth
,

search again, my debate with Hrvat22,
if I am wrong plz get the trouble to repeat my phobia,

what you do not see is hidden,
compare this 2 and you will realize that are the same,

I do not have phobia with E, simply I wonder why some demonising it? and push the limit, to prove that is something that is not, aren't you?
search deep, and then learn the Balkanic propaganda of all balkans,
then you will realize, what these 2 want to prove and claim

usage of parahistory, and paralinguistc was the propaganda of yesterday,
usage of genetic is the propaganda of future,

next thing is that E spoke IE, since the mtDNA of the area is more IE,
J1 is Semitic not Caucasian origin, since some J1 are marks of arabs and jews
and I2b1 is brother of R1a, but came same time from Heaven, and split, and habitant different, but are same

and the other is showing as naval and minor Asian the E, the most indifferent hg of all, and exclude J the most possible Hg, and most naval of all in Mediterenean, and not only

combine, what you get?
my phobia?
 
E1b, J2 and R1b is 24% in Croatia...E1b came with Vlach..considering that is J2 and R1b strong in Albanians it is possible that and these haplotypes have Vlach origin....normally should be determined in detail which types, but if it turns out that they come from Eastern Balkans in Croatia it is possible that 24% of Croats are Vlach origin or today Albanians...it is logic.


You must know that y haplotype goes to the level of person ... if Croat in Croatia has E1b haplotype, Y haplotype will go back to a village or area in southern Albania or Serbia where his ancestors lived. How that Croat can be Croatian when all his Y relatives are in today's Albania and Kosovo and ultimately in the Greek if it turns out that E1b originally formed and has source in Greece, that haplotype has nothing to do with arrival of Croats 1,500 years ago..

In Albania, exists I2a haplotype, it is possible that certain percentage is Croatian origin. If Albanian have I2a1b2a1a3 A356, how can be Albanian origin when most of Albanian are here autochton and has nothing to do with arrival on the Balkan 1,500 years ago. He is today Albanian but its origin is Croatian ... it's logic..


Mutations are root of human variation. About 99.9% of human genome is exactly the same across the whole human race. Most regions of DNA are surveyed by looking at representative sections, i.e. markers. Every marker has specific variations called alleles. Looking at allele values for several markers across a stretch of DNA can be important. The set of allele values for a set of markers across a strech of DNA is haplotype. People with similar haplotypes for a certain region of DNA are more closely related than people with different haplotypes. The number of differences between someone's haplotype and that of another person tell us approximately how many generations we have to go back in order to find common ancestor.

What I wrote:

This is pure nonsense, it can only be used for nationalist myths and nothing more.
Haplogroups and present nations are completely different things.
Did common ancestor was Serb, Croat, Pole, German, Lithuanian etc.?
Wrong.
Because nations have formed much later, they are social constructions not genetic.
And we cannot ever know about nationality of common ancestor.
Nationalists can bang their heads for years, and life passes and they have not done anything useful.
Place of origin?
It proves nothing, only for nationalistic myths.
People were moving, changing places and mixing.
In one tribe, someone could find people with different haplogroups and origin.
For example, over time, in the tribe could become dominant descendants of a stranger that has nothing to do with the original members of the tribe.
Are the carriers of I2a1b2a1a3 A356 Serbs, Croats, Bosniacs, Americans, Germans etc.
Yes, members of different nations in the world can be carriers, who cares.

You can go in nationalistic sites and there you can have like-minded. But here is different situation. It is pure waste of time.

And 39% Croats (42% is random mistake) according Eupedia are not I2a or R1a. And they are not Croats?!

Perhaps this is pretentious but maybe some Croats really trying to think in terms of blood and soil.

I'm half Serb (paternal), for me it is not important if I I2a1b2a1a3 A356 , or I1, or E-V13, or etc.

Because "nations are not biological units.Human history is a constant story of migration, warfare, intermarriage, assimilation, synthesis and imitation" (Maseland).

In Belgrade there are about 10.000 people from north Africa/Middle East who are second and third generation and lot of them voluntarily declare themselves as Serbs.

among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc.

Realy you think that E1b is Albanian?

It is nonsense, too (as for I2a1b2a1a3 A356).

You can read: E1b1b

Austria 8%
Belarus 4%
Belgium 5%
Bosnia and Herzegovina 12%
Bulgaria 23.5%
Czech Republic 6%
Cyprus 20%
Denmark 2.5%
...
France 7.5%
Germany 5.5%
Greece 21%
Hungary 8%
Italy 13.5%
...
Macedonia 21.5%
Malta 9%
Moldova 13%
Montenegro 27%
...
Chuvash (Russia) 13%
Mordvins (Russia) 9%
Tatars (Russia) 10%
...
Serbia 18%
Slovakia 6%
Slovenia 5%
...
Ukraine 5.5%
Etc.


And all of them are Albanians just they doesn't know that they are Albanians.
 
With all respect Yetos, you are not making much sense. Your arguments are more reflecting some E phobia (which you need to internally deal with) rather then real history or path migrations. I am saying it with respect as your arguments are extreme to say the least. If anything E-V13 is one of your major haplogroups in your own country, much more then is found in Iberia or even Italy, so I am not sure what you are trying to prove.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

I think that there is a misunderstanding.

Yetos explained that with haplogroup G2a3a he is Greek, he only answered to the wrong logic interlocutor that E1b is Albanian i.e. haplogroup = nation.

Someone can notice that the two interlocutors try to squeeze propaganda style rather than serious discussion.
 

@ maleth
,

search again, my debate with Hrvat22,
if I am wrong plz get the trouble to repeat my phobia,

Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.
 
Its not about the debate with Hrvat22 its the general subtle innuendos and connotations such as E-V13 is found only in Iberia (?), My E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), Check the Religion and the birthrate (?) comments all in relation to E-V13 in this case.

Indeed agree that inter racial hatred in the Balkans defies all logic and understanding to a rational debate which can make things so boring and uninteresting for those who are interested in pure prehistory and history in connection with DNA , haplogroups and HUMAN migrations. The irony is that the Balkans are very much a mixture of the same and has nothing to do with more recent events that fuel much of the more illogical reasoning, trying to be proven in some kind of fictitious tribal war fare between imaginary homogeneous Haplogroups that carry particular marks such as languages and custom, claiming some kind of righteousness and prowess over the other.

True that Maleth, looks like Yetos is not transparent at all, comments likeMy E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian (?), this is unacceptable, Yetos please give and comments on the sources or you will be pushing me to report your posts. And this applies to others too, we are welcomed to give on the opinions based on sources but not giving our own ideas (sometimes ridiculous) based on nothing, give a source and then comment based on that and not like saying E-V13 neighbor is Palestinian baptised Albanian PLEASE.
 

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