Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

:grin:
Maleth check his foot....we know your E-V13 and we already know your foot LOL...

display-407.jpg

Not just the foot NUFAN but other body parts :giggle: which I would not get into detail. Oh Nannu Zeus :grin:. Enough now back to topic please.:)
 
Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots

Nobody cares, populations are changing. I gave data, of all E-V13 males in Europe and Turkey, Albanians are 3.48%. But some Albanians try to convince that all E-V13 are by origin Albanians (you can see how they write indefinite, when they should be concrete).
...

However, Dienekes calculated age and everyone can see:

In my previous post, I estimated a Late Bronze Age for E-V13 in Greece and areas affected by historical Greek colonization. I now used Ken Nordtvedt's Generations2 program to obtain estimates of the age of E-V13 in three different datasets: the King set, 12-marker data from the E-M35 Phylogeny Project (Haplozone), as well as E-M78 data -most of which should be E-V13- from Bosch et al. (2006). In the latter set, I used two marker sets: all 12 markers common between Generations2 and Bosch, as well as 8 markers common between them, but excluding markers after DYS392 (in the Generations2/FTDNA order).

Nea Nikomedeia Age (25y/gen) 1,725 BC Age (30y/gen) 2,470 BC
Sesklo/Dimini Age (25y/gen) 225 AD Age (30y/gen) 130 BC
Lerna Franchthi Age (25y/gen) 1000 BC (30y/gen) 1,600 BC
Crete Age (25y/gen) 300 AD (30y/gen) 40 BC
Haplozone (25y/gen) 1,350 BC (30y/gen) 2,020 BC
Aromuns (12) (25y/gen) 225 AD (30y/gen) 130BC
Aromuns (8) (25y/gen) 175 AD (39y/gen) 190 BC
Slavomacedonians (12) (25y/gen) 525 AD (30y/gen) 230 AD
Albanians (12) 250 AD (30 y/gen) 100 BC
Albanians (8) 525 AD (30y/gen) 230 AD

Albanians are the youngest. It is interesting these ages are similar with ages which some Romanian scientists give as possible time of arrival of tribes from Romania/Moldavia to Albania!

According Dienekes, Greeks from Nea Nikomedeia are descendants of the oldest E-V13 carriers of these in table.

Nea Nikomedeia is in Central Macedonia, Greece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nea_Nikomedeia
 
There's now confirmed E1b1b1a1(2) in Neolithic Europe, so that part of the debate is over. There's also J2.

Anna Szcsenyi-Nagy
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf


Ed. Sorry, I didn't add that one is M78, and one may already be E-V13.

The cultures are Lengyel and Sopot.The date is 4780-4700 BC.

The rest are G2a, F*, I2a1, J2, and C.

R1b and I2a2 don't show up until the Bronze Age.

Kudos to Maciamo for always holding out for J2 having made it into Europe by the Neolithic. Do I get any points for saying it might have made it by the Late Neolithic? :)

Here is a map so you know where they are:

European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

There is all logical. I see nothing surprising, maybe only F* is bigger than I would expect.

I wonder, is this really F or this is G. Today there are no F* in Europe. I read example for two Portuguese men with F* but assumption is that they are descendants from India.

Starcevo culture is predecessor of Vinca (Starcevo is in Serbia, too).

Starcevo/Vinca I2a1, G2a (and F*). Now it is obvious that there has been adaptation, and the Hungarian paper argue about cooperation. When I wrote that hunter gatherers adapted, some members have refused this possibility.

Haplogroup_G2a.gif


Haplogroup_I2a.gif


...
E-V13 is logical too. It is found in Lengyel (Hungary) and Sopot (Croatia) culture.
These culture are something younger than Starcevo and Vinca, and tey are more mixed. In these cultures are G2a, F*, I2/I2a1, E-V13, J2 and C.

Once G2a was much more frequent than today. What happened to the G2a?
 
Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots

Agreed. So, lets get back on the track.


1.(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph....CE.93.CF.81.CE.B1.CE.B9.CE.BA.CE.BF.CE.AF.29)

The modern English noun Greek (Old English
Grecas or Crecas) is derived from the Latin Graeci, which in turn originates from Ancient Greek Γραικός (Graikos). It seems that the word is related with the Greek word γέρων geron, "old man" (from the PIEbase *ǵerh[SUB]2[/SUB]-, "to grow old") via Proto-Greek *gera-, "old age" and later kera /geras/, "gift of honour" in Mycenean Greek andgrau-j-, "old lady".




2. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotians#Tribe)

According to Strabo, the Thesprotians (along with the Chaonians and the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, as they once ruled over the whole region. The Chaonians ruled Epirus first while the Thesprotians and Molossians ruled afterwards. Plutarch tells us that the Thesprotians, the Chaonians and the Molossians were the three principal clusters of Greek tribes that had emerged in Epirus, and all three were the most powerful among all other tribes. Strabo also records that the Thesprotians, Molossians, and Macedonians referred to old men as pelioi and old women as peliai (PIE: *pel- means grey; Ancient Greek: pelitnós– "grey", peleia – "pigeon", so-called because of its dusky grey color, poliósgrey, and pollós – "dark"). Their senators were called Peligones, similar to the Macedonian Peliganes. A mid-4th century BC inscription from Goumani indicates that the organisation of the Thesprotian state was similar to that the other Epirotes.



3.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selloi)

The Selloi were
inhabitants of Epirus in ancient Greece, in a region between Dodona—site of the oldest reported oracle—and the Achelous river; Aristotle named the area ancient Hellas. A group who were formerly called Graeci (Graikoi) and later Hellenes lived there as well.


4. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona#Herodotus)

Herodotus adds:
"But my own belief about it is this. If the Phoenicians did in fact carry away the sacred women and sell one in Libya and one in Hellas, then, in my opinion, the place where this woman was sold in what is now Hellas, but was formerly called Pelasgia, was Thesprotia; and then, being a slave there, she established a shrine of Zeus under an oak that was growing there; for it was reasonable that, as she had been a handmaid of the temple of Zeus at Thebes, she would remember that temple in the land to which she had come.


5.(https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Γραικός)

Γραικός - Uncertain origin. Aristotle wrote that it was an Illyrian word used to describe the Dorian tribes in Epirus, from Graii, an indigenous name of peoples in the coastal region.



From all this it seems that Greek and Pelasgoi may be the same thing.




 
Agreed. So, lets get back on the track.


1.(https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph....CE.93.CF.81.CE.B1.CE.B9.CE.BA.CE.BF.CE.AF.29)

The modern English noun Greek (Old English
Grecas or Crecas) is derived from the Latin Graeci, which in turn originates from Ancient Greek Γραικός (Graikos). It seems that the word is related with the Greek word γέρων geron, "old man" (from the PIEbase *ǵerh[SUB]2[/SUB]-, "to grow old") via Proto-Greek *gera-, "old age" and later kera /geras/, "gift of honour" in Mycenean Greek andgrau-j-, "old lady".




2. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotians#Tribe)

According to Strabo, the Thesprotians (along with the Chaonians and the Molossians) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, as they once ruled over the whole region. The Chaonians ruled Epirus first while the Thesprotians and Molossians ruled afterwards. Plutarch tells us that the Thesprotians, the Chaonians and the Molossians were the three principal clusters of Greek tribes that had emerged in Epirus, and all three were the most powerful among all other tribes. Strabo also records that the Thesprotians, Molossians, and Macedonians referred to old men as pelioi and old women as peliai (PIE: *pel- means grey; Ancient Greek: pelitnós– "grey", peleia – "pigeon", so-called because of its dusky grey color, poliósgrey, and pollós – "dark"). Their senators were called Peligones, similar to the Macedonian Peliganes. A mid-4th century BC inscription from Goumani indicates that the organisation of the Thesprotian state was similar to that the other Epirotes.



3.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selloi)

The Selloi were
inhabitants of Epirus in ancient Greece, in a region between Dodona—site of the oldest reported oracle—and the Achelous river; Aristotle named the area ancient Hellas. A group who were formerly called Graeci (Graikoi) and later Hellenes lived there as well.


4. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona#Herodotus)

Herodotus adds:
"But my own belief about it is this. If the Phoenicians did in fact carry away the sacred women and sell one in Libya and one in Hellas, then, in my opinion, the place where this woman was sold in what is now Hellas, but was formerly called Pelasgia, was Thesprotia; and then, being a slave there, she established a shrine of Zeus under an oak that was growing there; for it was reasonable that, as she had been a handmaid of the temple of Zeus at Thebes, she would remember that temple in the land to which she had come.


5.(https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Γραικός)

Γραικός - Uncertain origin. Aristotle wrote that it was an Illyrian word used to describe the Dorian tribes in Epirus, from Graii, an indigenous name of peoples in the coastal region.



From all this it seems that Greek and Pelasgoi may be the same thing.




Yes, by ancient writers we had in Crete dorians, pelasgians, mycenians, minoans etc. Yes, we had the pelasgians among the allies of troy. Definitely they were non Hellenic population, and probably non IE population either. By ancient Hellenic writers we know that pelasgians tongue was intelligible by the hellenes. Those writers wrote that those non Greek people lived till the 500 bce in south Greece. Probably fully assimilated later , or forced to leave.
 
noUseForAname
Why you put Illyirans in this thread. What Illyrians have with Pelasgians? They have nothing, two completely different populations, different origin, in different times, in different locations.

Here is one opinion about Pelasgians, Calvin Evans, American author and historian:

The Pelasgians: The Black Original inhabitants of Ancient Greece


https://saggigga.wordpress.com/2014...black-original-inhabitants-of-ancient-greece/

...
What do you think about it?

This is for discussion. Lets all we members try to strictly hold thread.
The maximum you should say here is different location, not different times. Illyrians came to Balkans around early bronze age or late Neolithic as I have read by serious writers. Pelasgians were mentioned during the war of troy 1130 circa . Also they have been mentioned later in Crete and in south Greece till the 500 bce in some isolated pockets. But we have epirus region, where we have Illyrians, hellenes and pelasgians too. The site of Dodona was the only one important worshiping site for them.
 
Do not worry too much about e-v13 of Kosovo, it only has just under 2 million population compared to the just under 3 million of Albania, 11 million of Greece, and just over 7 million of Bulgaria.....other E-V13 hotspots
You should be worried because over half population of albania are ghegs.their is 1.5 million in kosova an another 1.5 million in albania an their is another 600 thousand in macedonia an 90 thousand in serbia an 30 thousand in montenegro.An every single one of these groups are related through tribes,now since the population of albania is only 2.775 million im sure you can do your maths.An when you look at the percent of ev-13 in kosova i think around 47% an add the other percent of ev-13 in albanian would give a much bigger percentage as im betting most of the population in albania carring the ev-13 would most likey be gheg.so im guessing around 65% of gheg albanian even more would carry ev-13.Then add the 40% of greek ev-13 holders in peloponnese an population of their is only 1,100,071 makes it very much less since greece population is 11 million.dont forget the albanian population in peloponnese take away the population of them an arvantie albanians an you wil have less ev-13 in greece.ot to mentions ghegs are really much a sicluded people with seprate language to everyone else.an also tosk has you guys have 20 diffrent dilects..seems to me everywhere albanians are their is a high percent of ev-13. peloponnese has the highest ammount of ev-13 than any place in greece..

Population of macedonia is 2.1 million an 600 thousand albanians living their is a percentige or 35% now whats amount of ev-13 in macedonia?Im sure its close to 33%..hmmm interesting.
 
So here I am back after some couple of years, did not do much research though but would like to start again and see what are the new findings for E-V13 and R1b.

Anyone who has anything interesting please share...
 
So here I am back after some couple of years, did not do much research though but would like to start again and see what are the new findings for E-V13 and R1b.

Anyone who has anything interesting please share...

Welcome back Megalophias.
 
Pelasgians were not true hellens. They are aboriginals and indigenous before hellens. But dorians, or Lacedaemons hellenized them. Just as they did with many other surrounding peoples before them.
 
The maximum you should say here is different location, not different times. Illyrians came to Balkans around early bronze age or late Neolithic as I have read by serious writers. Pelasgians were mentioned during the war of troy 1130 circa . Also they have been mentioned later in Crete and in south Greece till the 500 bce in some isolated pockets. But we have epirus region, where we have Illyrians, hellenes and pelasgians too. The site of Dodona was the only one important worshiping site for them.

The carrians were the first islanders of the aegean sea before greeks. When they were under minos rule, they didnt pay tribute but instead manned the ships of minos navy. This reason is why carians were among the most respected nation. But later Ionians drove them out of the aegean back to west asia. Their homeland before they colonized the agean before ionians
As the carians living in Caria say they have always lived in caria but the minoans said the carians were tje first in the aegean before them. I have not finished reading the histories by heordotus but this is where you can find the information

Colchians by the caucus were egyptians. They were remenants of an egyptian army of Sesostris
 
Pelasgians were not true hellens. They are aboriginals and indigenous before hellens. But dorians, or Lacedaemons hellenized them. Just as they did with many other surrounding peoples before them.

Yes, most likely and this is according to history i believe...
 
As current Albanian Speaking regions have the highest E-V13 in the world (refer to my table) and a bit higher than the current ethnic greeks than it doesn't correlate that they have migrated from the north or (as some argued) from the today Romania region. But actually might have migrated from the very south Peloponnese area, Pindus Mountain south west Thessaly up to north Albania and Kosovo where E-V15 is 47.5%, interesting。
 
Eva Fernández et al.,Ancient DNA Analysis of 8000 B.C. Near Eastern Farmers Supports an Early Neolithic Pioneer Maritime Colonization of Mainland Europe through Cyprus and the Aegean Islands. PLoSGenetics 2014. Open accessLINK[doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004401]  eager to read this.
 
Hi Everyone, I was quite off for quite a while, and was wondering if anyone has any new good studies regarding E-V13?
 
Hi Everyone, I was quite off for quite a while, and was wondering if anyone has any new good studies regarding E-V13?

Hi, still no. We are still wondering about the origin, it looks less and less likely that it is a Balkanite Y-DNA ( EBA upwards). The oldest clade related with this Y-DNA are 1-2 E-L618 from Early Neolithic Cardial Ware. From the actual E-V13 mutation the oldest ones are from Germany, Poland and further south, some in Italy. Would be interesting to know how and when did it enter Balkans.
 
Hi, still no. We are still wondering about the origin, it looks less and less likely that it is a Balkanite Y-DNA ( EBA upwards). The oldest clade related with this Y-DNA are 1-2 E-L618 from Early Neolithic Cardial Ware. From the actual E-V13 mutation the oldest ones are from Germany, Poland and further south, some in Italy. Would be interesting to know how and when did it enter Balkans.

I do believe that EV13 crossed directly from far north Africa very very long time ago, since from history read that pre-ancient greek time there were people living on those surroundings called Pelasgian, at that time since 2014 were I was still a rookie, and I still am https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...287#post610287 and from this old post, tried to maybe these so called Pelazgic people mostly caried EV13.

I still believe in it, of course since there are only few ancient samples we can suppose and speculate I guess, I think we also find quite high EV13 on VINCA culture, i think read a post on this from Maciamo, so surely after north Africa it spread all over Europe, and why not some to Spain, Italy, balkan region and Grece also, however how about they have found a best and most convinient place for them in Vinca Culture 7000 ybp? then to more southern Balkans like current Albania North Macedonia and Greece around 6000 ybp? Then came Minoans and Myceneans, we do have reseach Lasaridis I believe that says Minoans and Myceneans look the most likely with current modern people of Greece, north Macedonia and Albania, than ancient Greece etc, which still does not have to be formed all from this group of course but they could have been the majority ....And people always move right, so they could have moved as mentioned above as well, who knows only time will tell

So, I would not conclude (as you mention) as of now yet, because we found only few ancient E-V13 in Spain, Germany etc it does not mean, yes it can enter from north Africa 7000 BC years ago from Spain Italy and Greece etc, as people move all the time they sure went north like Germany, then why not found home and gathered mostly in Vinca area 7000 ypb, then went south Balkans, and gathered there again after 6000 ybp?

As current south Balkans have the highest E-V13 can we suppose that the biggest expansion after 6000 ybp was indeed from South Balkans? or even from the Vinca culture location?

Well only some very interesting suppositions, we need so many more of the ancient samples
 
I do believe that EV13 crossed directly from far north Africa very very long time ago, since from history read that pre-ancient greek time there were people living on those surroundings called Pelasgian, at that time since 2014 were I was still a rookie, and I still am https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...287#post610287 and from this old post, tried to maybe these so called Pelazgic people mostly caried EV13.

I still believe in it, of course since there are only few ancient samples we can suppose and speculate I guess, I think we also find quite high EV13 on VINCA culture, i think read a post on this from Maciamo, so surely after north Africa it spread all over Europe, and why not some to Spain, Italy, balkan region and Grece also, however how about they have found a best and most convinient place for them in Vinca Culture 7000 ybp? then to more southern Balkans like current Albania North Macedonia and Greece around 6000 ybp? Then came Minoans and Myceneans, we do have reseach Lasaridis I believe that says Minoans and Myceneans look the most likely with current modern people of Greece, north Macedonia and Albania, than ancient Greece etc, which still does not have to be formed all from this group of course but they could have been the majority ....And people always move right, so they could have moved as mentioned above as well, who knows only time will tell

So, I would not conclude (as you mention) as of now yet, because we found only few ancient E-V13 in Spain, Germany etc it does not mean, yes it can enter from north Africa 7000 BC years ago from Spain Italy and Greece etc, as people move all the time they sure went north like Germany, then why not found home and gathered mostly in Vinca area 7000 ypb, then went south Balkans, and gathered there again after 6000 ybp?

As current south Balkans have the highest E-V13 can we suppose that the biggest expansion after 6000 ybp was indeed from South Balkans? or even from the Vinca culture location?

Well only some very interesting suppositions, we need so many more of the ancient samples

An E-M35 admin made years ago thesis that E-V13 began spreading with Cetina culture. It still seems correct, as is spreading of CTS1273 with Glina III culture already in BA. Yamnaya (GS) nomads created pre-Cetina culture proper and Z1057 gave one of his sons to them. Already in EBA they were all over the Balkans. Glina III is really the only way to explain the spread of V13.

Who were these Yamnaya? I suspect the likes of R-KMS67 and R-Y5587.

The oldest historical E-V13 find is Glinoe "Scythian" from 300 BC, that is Getae from Glinoe who was E-FGC44169*. Autosomally Getae were almost identical to the Thraco-Cimmerian find from 900 BC, so there was some continuity there. And ofc the entire area was partly descended from Glina III..

From years ago (Spanish E-V13 find) we know E-L618 has strong Cardial connection, we know there was only one Cardial element which survived for thousands of years until the EBA, and of course we know Cetina culture had this element. So it's a no brainer and it is based actually on an aDNA find (Dalmatian E-L618), current spread, diversity and very strong archaeological evidence.
From a purely logical PoV, how come E-V13 does not descend from one of very few E-L618 enclaves in Europe which happened to participate in an EBA culture (which is E-V13's TMRCA) which began in the same area.. No it should rather start expanding from G2a cultures and those made up 95+ % of the Neolithic Europe..:LOL::LOL:

Were these "Pelasgians"? I guess some of those were the Peleset, or Philistines.. Generally all those cultures are considered to have been IE.
Various E-V13 clades already look certainly connected to the Bronze Age collapse.

My system means: V13 is in Dalmatia, CTS1273 is in modern day Romania, various BY3880's are already around the Balkans, including the Southern Balkans. GS people dominated the Central and Eastern Balkans in EBA. That fact alone speaks volumes as V13 is predominately EBA in its initial spread.
 
An E-M35 admin made years ago thesis that E-V13 began spreading with Cetina culture. It still seems correct, as is spreading of CTS1273 with Glina III culture already in BA. Yamnaya (GS) nomads created pre-Cetina culture proper and Z1057 gave one of his sons to them. Already in EBA they were all over the Balkans. Glina III is really the only way to explain the spread of V13.

The oldest historical E-V13 find is Glinoe "Scythian" from 300 BC, that is Getae from Glinoe who was E-FGC44169*. Autosomally Getae were almost identical to the Thraco-Cimmerian find from 900 BC, so there was some continuity there. And ofc the entire area was partly descended from Glina III..

Were these "Pelasgians"? I guess some of those were the Peleset, or Philistines.. Generally all those cultures are considered to have been IE.
Various E-V13 clades already look certainly connected to the Bronze Age collapse.

My system means: V13 is in Dalmatia, CTS1273 is in modern day Romania, various BY3880's are already around the Balkans, including the Southern Balkans. GS people dominated the Central and Eastern Balkans in EBA. That fact alone speaks volumes as V13 is predominately EBA in its initial spread.

Might be Cetina culture, but I think it should have happened much longet time ago, probably around or at least 4000 BC, it cant be that late if we already found E-V13 in Spain was it around 6000 BC? So why the spread that late, I am sure Vinca carried some E-V13 as well...

And Pelasgian were not IE at all I believe, for more info I already answered you on the other post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...originate/page13?p=610395&posted=1#post610395
 
Might be Cetina culture, but I think it should have happened much longet time ago, probably around or at least 4000 BC,

And why do you "think" that?? The main rule in genetic genealogy is to follow the TMRCA estimates and basal diversity. If you cannot comprehend that rule then you shouldn't "think" about anything related to the expansion of haplogroups. The main expansion of E-V13 couldn't have happened "much longet time ago", because it happened at this time based on genetic evidence.

it cant be that late if we already found E-V13 in Spain was it around 6000 BC?

But it is.

So why the spread that late,

Because the TMRCA of all current existent E-V13 lineages is lower.

I am sure Vinca carried some E-V13 as well...

It carried few in a 1000 or none.

And Pelasgian were not IE at all I believe, for more info I already answered you on the other post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...originate/page13?p=610395&posted=1#post610395

Pelasgians weren't IE, they spoke Etruscan related language, some say they descended of them.. Philistines might be related to some V13 clades, but they spoke IE per evidence they show..

Look dude, you clearly have some strong desire to push the spread of E-V13 into the Neolithic so you can turn the V13 into "Pelasgian slaves" like it was postulated 10/15 years ago. But they spread in BA so they must have been some dominators, whatever it was. And I know thats something you can't stand, cause you're "supposed" to be some dominator right, not those "despicable E's" right?? :LOL: You descend from a bottleneck of a couple thousands of years, and you weren't dominating anything for a long time before your 6th century expansion..
 

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