Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

Northern Greece Neo vs Southern Greece Neo:

Distance to:Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
2.40816666Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
4.14914449Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
4.27987539Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
5.91626548Greece_N_(n=6)
6.34545244Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
9.85760451Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
13.94642009Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
3.24115720Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
5.71577641Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
5.84238821Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
7.53665837Greece_N_(n=6)
7.76703290Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
11.34981938Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
15.41466834Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:pal7
2.93986394Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
4.77472512Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
5.17961389Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
6.82313120Greece_N_(n=6)
7.35911000Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
10.80519782Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
14.60860363Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
2.48947786Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
3.47423373Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
3.50709281Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
3.96232921Greece_N_(n=6)
4.51229432Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
7.74572140Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
12.10513940Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920

 
Northern Greece Neo vs Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker:

Distance to:Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
3.95073411Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
5.87383464Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
6.60681466EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
7.69388502LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
7.89405050Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
9.64642594LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
9.95511929Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
9.99717460Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
10.32730362Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
10.59903612MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
11.70766416Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
11.85611375Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
12.21947216Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
12.24321717Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
12.31004197Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
12.57137887EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
12.74551686Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
12.89895086Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
15.05533571Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
16.16743847EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
17.64493223Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
24.24392501Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
24.43917006Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
24.44766042Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
24.58542048Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
4.41680880Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
5.75074778EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
6.43449299LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
7.43336398Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
7.58139829Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
8.54582354Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
8.79639131LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
9.37636390Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
10.27857967MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
10.73735535Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
10.96766156Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
11.17087732Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
11.35762739Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
11.48457226EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
11.64948926Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
11.82524841Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
13.32510037Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
13.81449601Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
13.97261965Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
16.11385118Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
17.19699683EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
23.67081748Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
24.07053593Chalcolithic_BB_Sardinia_(n=10)
24.68076174Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
25.14148166Middle_Neolithic_France_(n=19)

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:pal7
4.38094739Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
6.02466597EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
6.75148872Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
7.07077082LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
7.32978172Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
9.03027131LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
9.33324167Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
9.51317507Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
9.91312766MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
11.20897854Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
11.23360583Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
11.51353551Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
11.74794876Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
11.79231105Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
11.85183108EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
12.10430502Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
12.42936040Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
13.30579573Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
14.33478985Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
16.53946795EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
16.94128389Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
23.87404658Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
24.49707534Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
24.65291463Early_Medieval_Latium_(n=5)
24.65876112Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
4.08877732Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
4.70890645Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
8.27838752Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
8.69667178EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
9.47600127Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
9.65456887Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
10.01193787LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
11.58827425LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
11.63888311Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
12.05462982Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
12.13050700MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
12.29725579Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
13.72120257Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
13.93798407Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
14.31132768Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
14.52197645Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
14.69037780EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
15.02945441Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
15.13001322EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
17.12655540Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
20.03540366Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)
22.32361082Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
23.16591462Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
23.62168707Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
24.06207389Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
 
Distance to:Jovialis
22.35913236Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920
24.90830958Greece_N_(n=6)
25.00568335Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
25.59083625Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
25.64280601Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
25.84473641Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
26.40096589Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
26.82268132Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
26.85622274Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:pal7
27.46180620Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
27.93191902Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
 
PMdDQ09.png
 
I'll be interested to see Neolithic samples from Southern Italy, particularly Puglia. Not only because my family comes from there, but also because Puglia was one of two port of entry for Neolithic peoples into Italy. The other being Eastern Sicily. I would wager that like these Peloponnese Neolithic samples, they have CHG + Anatolian_N. I'd bet they even cluster together.
 
@Jovialis, thank you for all your work! Northern and southern Greek Neolithic samples pretty close to each other given the distance. Also pretty close to the Minoans.

I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.
 
bigsnake49 said:
@Jovialis, thank you for all your work! Northern and southern Greek Neolithic samples pretty close to each other given the distance. Also pretty close to the Minoans.

I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.
Click to expand...

Yeah, unfortunately for that question, all of the samples are female, except for one in the final Neolithic, which is a G2a male.
 
bigsnake49 said:
I do wander though the lack of EV13. Are the majority of Balkan samples, female? If they are it might explain the lack of y-dna.
Click to expand...

E-V13/E-L618 in Neolithic was likely confined to Dalmatian coast until the EBA. And the only Neolithic E-L618 find comes from there. E-V13 is obviously Cardial related (with E-V13 Spanish Cardial find) and Dalmatian coast was their main hub.

E-V13 itself started to expand in EBA with the Cetina culture. There aren't finds from there, but this is extremely likely based on V13 diversity and the strong Neolithic Cardial element that played part in its formation.

Great many Greek V13 are either Iron Age incomers or Medieval Vlach and Arvanite incomers.
 
I don't think that pelasgians were ancient greeks in this manner. I think pelasgians were the very latest neolithic nonIE population of Balkans.
 
Recently i come across the belief that the Pelasgians indeed could have been E-V13, and they were not Pre-Greek people but Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age intruders from the Danube.

Archeologically the Danubian invaders of LBA were mainly concentrated around Attica and Thessaly were cremation was mostly prevalent. Just as Gimbutas proposed the Pelasgians might indeed be recent comers to Greece who were latter absorbed into Greek ethnos during classical time.

The Pelasgians could very well have spoken an extinct IE language (maybe the same/related to Peleset/Philistines), and those non IE words are from separate/extinct pre-Greek people who mixed with Myceneans instead way earlier.

We have witnessed so far, how many times ancient Greek authors were not always correct, they had subjective worldview and totally understanding for their time.
 
Hawk said:
Recently i come across the belief that the Pelasgians indeed could have been E-V13, and they were not Pre-Greek people but Late Bronze Age - Early Iron Age intruders from the Danube.

Archeologically the Danubian invaders of LBA were mainly concentrated around Attica and Thessaly were cremation was mostly prevalent. Just as Gimbutas proposed the Pelasgians might indeed be recent comers to Greece who were latter absorbed into Greek ethnos during classical time.

The Pelasgians could very well have spoken an extinct IE language (maybe the same/related to Peleset/Philistines), and those non IE words are from separate/extinct pre-Greek people who mixed with Myceneans instead way earlier.

We have witnessed so far, how many times ancient Greek authors were not always correct, they had subjective worldview and totally understanding for their time.
Click to expand...

Even more important in this respect might be the Paeonians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians
https://amp.en.google-info.in/2195491/1/paeonian-language.html

They surely had E-V13 and might be a fused/mixed group with Daco-Thracian affinities.
 
Riverman said:
Even more important in this respect might be the Paeonians:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians
https://amp.en.google-info.in/2195491/1/paeonian-language.html

They surely had E-V13 and might be a fused/mixed group with Daco-Thracian affinities.
Click to expand...

As per the map on the linked site...the Paeonians closest neighbours by ethnicity would be the Dardanians first, then the Macedonians ............they might have been as you state a Daco-thracian group , but IMO, they are entirely separate group along with Dardanians and Macedonians
The Paeonians always seemed to be under the Macedonian yoke
 
You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.
 
Angela said:
You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.
Click to expand...

What if we know it? :wink:
 
Angela said:
You can't possibly know that so emphatically. None of you can.

I've rarely seen so much theorizing based on virtually no data.
Click to expand...

Particularly since according to this theory they used cremation. You may use archaeology to give you an ida of their material culture. But unless you have ancient sample you cannot say anything about their DNA.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Particularly since according to this theory they used cremation. You may use archaeology to give you an ida of their material culture. But unless you have ancient sample you cannot say anything about their DNA.
Click to expand...

We can use the classical pre-post reasoning though. What was there before, what came in, what was different afterwards. This might not even always be about one haplogroup coming from outside replacing the locals, it can also mean one group from the larger framework expanding at the expense of the others.
In this case the cremation horizon East of a certain line is very likely to mean increased frequency for E-V13. This is therefore true for a lot of people North of the Greeks and some of these Daco-Thracian related elements marched into Greece too. Now the question is what is meant if talking about "Pelasgians". If its the Pre-Greek people of the region, than they're not the same as those bringing cremation, because those which brought cremation were Urnfielders from the Carpathians and Danube, not the pre-Greek inhabitants of the Aegean Sea. Therefore, people have to make that decision first: What and whom do they mean if talking about "Pelasgians".
If there is no proper definition, we can't even start to associate them with a specific archaeological and other ethnic groups, which is difficult enough. The Pre-Greeks seem to have been largely Copper Age inhabitants still, very Neolithic, in some regions probably influenced by Proto-Anatolian related groups (Cernavoda?), but that's speculative already.
 
IMO Pelasgians must have existed as much as Achaeans ,Dardanians ,Dorians ,Carians ,Illyrians etc did ,the common theme behind the myths of all those is that peoples and territories end up being named by one common forefather/king (sounds like an "IE" thing If you ask me) ,the confusion could lie in the fact that Pelasgian came to mean the autochthonous/old inhabitant aka the pre-IE substrate or that it described the sum of all the peoples in territories that an early IE group expanded/ruled at ,this group assimilated the first and ended up identifying with them (after all we know Mycenaean civilization as an example was the continuation of local Aegean one and they had mostly local DNA so it sounds like a reasonable expectation..to me at least) ,the result is that both them and those who could have retained their pre-IE speech(the "barbarian Pelasgians" per Herodotus maybe?)came to be grouped under the same name.If this were to be true maybe "Pelasgic" would be a better term or simply draw a line between "IE" and non IE-speaking "Pelasgians".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 327224 times.

Back
Top