Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

You're trying to confuse readers, you putting data from 1912, Kosovo and Metohija: 51% Albanians (1% more than 1/2).
Can you compute time difference between 1455 (and earlier) and 1912.
In Middle time there are no Albanians in the Kosovo and Metohija, it is Serbian land.


There is only one Question:


You claim
total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000?

This means for every village only 56 inhabitants?….is that even possible?…its as for an average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village?
 
You didn't read well. It says ~13.500 adult males, That gives ~27.000 with females. That gives probably ~100.000 with children.


Considering Vilayet, you were right, the borders are different. But the situation is even worse. Austrains claim that in 1899. there was ~180.000 Albanians on Kosovo, and we know that 100 years later there was ~1.800.000. That's like 10x in a 100 years :)

P.S. Mods should transport these last 3 pages into a new thread - "Kosovo ethnic composition AD", starting selective somewhere around #363.
 
You didn't read well. It says ~13.500 adult males, That gives ~27.000 with females. That gives probably ~100.000 with children.


Nope, have a closer look, the study includes Sons and Fathers too (all males).

Stepan. Sin Branislava - "Sin" in serbian means "Son" in English
Durad, sin Hrle....etc


278-810ad48977.jpg



So in the Village Maqar: Total 4 males: Sin "son" Branislav, Sin "son" Hrle - And Stepan, Durad.


You think 4 inhabitants include the whole Village?...and Concluding from all 480 Villages Serbs are 98%?


It is a total misrepresentation of the study, the study was de facto based on representing ONLY one ethnic background (Serbs)



Hopefully this clears up you understanding....
 
noUseForAname

In 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th century there are no Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. For period after Battle of Kosovo and Turkish historians know it, there are data in Istanbul. For change the situation in Kosovo and Metohija Albanians are grateful to the Turks. Therefore when Turkish president Erdogan says in Kosovo in front of Albanians "Kosovo is Turkey" he receives ovation and applause from Albanians:


...

But, back to the topic. You can see that subclades of E-V13 are relatively young, formed 4400, 3800 and younger. And you can see that here in forum is total confusion, someone speaks about path via Gibraltar, others speaks about Lybia as place of origin and sea path to Sicily or near, thirds speaks about Near East and path via Anatolia or Caucasus, etc.

Now, it is almost surely, Vinca culture was not created by E-V13 carriers.
 
noUseForAname

In 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th century there are no Albanians in Kosovo and Metohija. For period after Battle of Kosovo and Turkish historians know it,


Turkish Defter you have sourced 1445


You claim total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000

For every village 56 inhabitants…..average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village


ANY THOUGHTS....?



The map and villages are pretty large, considering the current Kosovo and South west/east Serbia.


map brankovic.jpg
 
Turkish Defter you have sourced 1445


You claim total population of 480 villages is 28,000 and in all of them are Serbs 27,000

For every village 56 inhabitants…..average house (5 people), 11 houses for one village


ANY THOUGHTS....?

Again, you're confused.

All is clear, Turks numbered only heads of households. It was a matter for tax to them.

In this defter is 14,087 household heads, 13,607 adult males household heads and 480 widows.

Turks wrote son of somebody because identification. For example: Ranko son of Miroslav is household head. He may have a lot of household members, in that time families were big.

Here is the one village (household heads):

Village Ahovac

Ranko son of Miroslav
Radenko son of Radislav
Radislav
Djuradj brother of Ranko
Vlkota son of Radislav
Pribil son of Miroslav
Dobracin son of Radenko
Bozic son of Nikola
Jovan son of Pribilo
Nejak
Belosava widow

Houses 10, widows 1
Income: 986 (akches)

You can see, they numbered 10 household heads in this village (no 10 inhabitants of village). The number of inhabitants is much bigger, but to the Turks for tax was important household head.

Also, you can see here Serbian names. 95.88% of all names in the whole defter are Serbian.

Result this defter is:


  • 13,000 Serb dwellings present in all 480 villages and towns
  • 75 Vlach dwellings in 34 villages
  • 46 Albanian dwellings in 23 villages
  • 17 Bulgarian dwellings in 10 villages
  • 5 Greek dwellings in Lauša, Vučitrn
  • 1 Jewish dwelling in Vučitrn
  • 1 Croat dwelling.

...
Of course, good question is how many people could be under one household head. It depends if there were one-family household or something else. It is middle age, not today's situation.

Looking the history books, family in Serbia had 6-10 members. If someone counts children and older people, all members, it could be more for one-family household. But it was much more in cooperatives (more-family household) which are comprised relatives greater or lesser degree of closeness. Therefore it is not easy to determine multiplier with which to multiply 14,087.

...
That Serbs converted to Islam after Kosovo battle today Serbs would have over 95% of Kosovo and Metohija population. Probably a large part of Balkan would be Serbian and there would no division between Serbs and Bosniacs. But Serbs have chosen much more harder way. They remained Christians no matter how difficult it was under rule of Muslim invaders. Not only Serbs, and Greeks, Bulgarians, Aromanians, Romanians chose this difficult path preserving Christian faith.

But Albanians relatively quickly massively converted to Islam becoming spearhead of Turkish rule in the Balkans. Many Muslim leaders, aghas, pashas, beys etc. who Balkans Christians and Atheists remembered because they brought them suffering, were ethnic Albanians, not Turks.
...

And it can be political, but only one short question, what do you think which nation is in the top by giving people to ISIS (relative to population).
...

Again, we should discuss about E-V13 and Pelasgians.
 
Nope, have a closer look, the study includes Sons and Fathers too (all males).

Stepan. Sin Branislava - "Sin" in serbian means "Son" in English
Durad, sin Hrle....etc


View attachment 7336



So in the Village Maqar: Total 4 males: Sin "son" Branislav, Sin "son" Hrle - And Stepan, Durad.


You think 4 inhabitants include the whole Village?...and Concluding from all 480 Villages Serbs are 98%?

Once again, you don't read well. I don't know what have you attached up there, but this is census of 1455:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1455_defter_of_the_Branković_lands


It is a total misrepresentation of the study, the study was de facto based on representing ONLY one ethnic background (Serbs)
Hopefully this clears up you understanding....

It clears up that you are misinterpreting the study. WHY THE HELL??? What's your problem?
 
But, back to the topic.

Its impossible to get back to the topic as the topic has hardly been discussed. What have we learned about the Palasgians? Now its more Albania vs Serbia type of debate rather the origins of the Palsgians.


You can see that subclades of E-V13 are relatively young, formed 4400, 3800 and younger.

Even if what you state is set in stone which is not, 4400 is pre Ottoman rule, pre creation of Kosovo or the existence of Albania or Serbia, so what this ancient age (anyway) has to do with kosovo being Turkish when there was no such thing 4400 ybp?

And you can see that here in forum is total confusion, someone speaks about path via Gibraltar, others speaks about Lybia as place of origin and sea path to Sicily or near, thirds speaks about Near East and path via Anatolia or Caucasus, etc.

There is really no confusion its very simple. Maciamo (civilly and no doubt with good intention) proposed a theory that E-V13 crossed directly from North Africa even proposed Libya (unfortunately without much scientific evidence and against the odds in current populations and ancient history) while in the scientific community there is (at present as things can change with new data) a general consensus as expressed in many papers that E-V13 was mutated in the Near east or Balkans proper. Should you be interested in participating in the origins of E-V13 this would be an appropriate thread. Your contributions will be appreciated. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30814-Where-did-E-V13-originate

Now, it is almost surely, Vinca culture was not created by E-V13 carriers.

Was E-V13 really connected at some point to Vinca culture? I must have missed some threads. Do we have any studies from ancient burial sites? that would really be interesting. I would be happy if we share links of new findings were possible. i believe Vinca cultrue spread on a very large geographical area and could easily have a mixture of haplogroups and not just one particular haplogroup.
 
Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.

Even if what you state is set in stone which is not, 4400 is pre Ottoman rule, pre creation of Kosovo or the existence of Albania or Serbia, so what this ancient age (anyway) has to do with kosovo being Turkish when there was no such thing 4400 ybp?

We don't know where E-V13 was 4,400 years ago, we have no samples E-V13 in ancient times, in the Balkans and Europe. Nobody mentioned Turks in period before 4,400 years. About debate with noUserforAname, it has no link with the thread. I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.

I gave the source about E-V13. We can see three subclades and they are relatively young:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

There is really no confusion its very simple. Maciamo (civilly and no doubt with good intention) proposed a theory that E-V13 crossed directly from North Africa even proposed Libya (unfortunately without much scientific evidence and against the odds in current populations and ancient history) while in the scientific community there is (at present as things can change with new data) a general consensus as expressed in many papers that E-V13 was mutated in the Near east or Balkans proper. Should you be interested in participating in the origins of E-V13 this would be an appropriate thread. Your contributions will be appreciated. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30814-Where-did-E-V13-originate

I was very precise, yes in this forum is confusion. If you want to set what members of forum wrote about E-V13, someone who is not in the forum would be in confusion. I think it is consequence because we have no enough knowledge about expansion of this haplogroup. I told you, it is possible that I'm carrier of this haplogroup. I'm "multinational", I have origin from three nations. And scientists write different about this haplogroup. You can see different times in different scientific paper. Scientists often speaks of post neolithic expansion haplogroup of E-V13 in Europe.


Was E-V13 really connected at some point to Vinca culture? I must have missed some threads. Do we have any studies from ancient burial sites? that would really be interesting. I would be happy if we share links of new findings were possible. i believe Vinca cultrue spread on a very large geographical area and could easily have a mixture of haplogroups and not just one particular haplogroup.

We have:

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today. If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings.
 
Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.

Oh jolly thanks :)

I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.

:unsure:18 Pages and hardly anything about Palasgians can be painful.

We have:

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

much much more sampling is needed. It does not surprise me at all if I haplo's is part of it or even maybe main Haplogroup considering the age. Other classical civilizations would have been created later to the south and the Northern migrations came later too. Much much more work is needed tho but Vinca would be an interesting story.
 
Its impossible to get back to the topic as the topic has hardly been discussed. What have we learned about the Palasgians? Now its more Albania vs Serbia type of debate rather the origins of the Palsgians.

It has to do with the topic because today's hotspot of E-V13 was uninhabited just 1500 years ago. Then came Slavs, who probably carried some of it (5-15%). Current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history and Pelasgians.
 
Maleth, I gave you reputation because you are trying to get back discussion to the track.



We don't know where E-V13 was 4,400 years ago, we have no samples E-V13 in ancient times, in the Balkans and Europe. Nobody mentioned Turks in period before 4,400 years. About debate with noUserforAname, it has no link with the thread. I'm trying to stop this debate and back to topic.

I gave the source about E-V13. We can see three subclades and they are relatively young:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/



I was very precise, yes in this forum is confusion. If you want to set what members of forum wrote about E-V13, someone who is not in the forum would be in confusion. I think it is consequence because we have no enough knowledge about expansion of this haplogroup. I told you, it is possible that I'm carrier of this haplogroup. I'm "multinational", I have origin from three nations. And scientists write different about this haplogroup. You can see different times in different scientific paper. Scientists often speaks of post neolithic expansion haplogroup of E-V13 in Europe.

According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

From the paper:
"A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

As to their comment about E-V13, Maleth has already quoted it.

I think it's also just as well to clear up any confusion about E-V13. A sample was indeed found in a Neolithic sample from 5,000 BC. It was in the Avellaner Cave in Catalonia.

This is the link to the paper:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/1...df?with-ds=yes

This is the table where it is clearly labeled as E-V13:
Attachment 7341

It also so appears in Jean Manco's online table of ancient DNA:
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

This is why the author said that it was definitely related to the E-V13 in the Balkans.

Attachment 7342


This is the map of the current distribution of E-V13. It may not be totally current, but the general parameters are clear.

So, we do indeed know that E-V13, and moreover an E-V13 related to the E-V13 now present in the Aegean and surrounding areas, was present in Neolithic Europe 5,000 BC in a Cardial context. Once again, Cardial was an east to west Neolithic migration that began in the Aegean and/or the Balkan area.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...roup-E-V13.gif
Haplogroup-E-V13.gif


Given all of that, until some new piece of ancient DNA is proffered which would change the picture, the movement into Europe of E-V13 would seem to have been from east to west and probably during the Neolithic, as numerous scholars have posited.

It's true that we don't know for certain where the "father" of the E-V13 cluster that is most common in the Balkans originated. However, I hardly think it's parsimonious, looking at all this data, to posit he came from Spain or Africa or some other rather bizarre scenario. The likelihood is that he came from somewhere near by.

I also think it has to be borne in mind that TMRCA should not be conflated with "date of arrival". The particular TMRCA of a certain group could be consistent with the arrival of a lineage long before.

The expansion certainly seems to have taken place in the Bronze Age and probably continued in the Iron Age, to Italy, among other places.
 
It has to do with the topic because today's hotspot of E-V13 was uninhabited just 1500 years ago. Then came Slavs, who probably carried some of it (5-15%). Current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history and Pelasgians.

Albania is not the only hotspot for E-V13 but also, Greece and Bulgaria amoungst others who all had very ancient populations and settlements. Populations were scarce around the Whole of Europe anyway with the earliest largest being those of the Vinca culture before those of classical Greece. Farming is still thought to have been spread from Greece upwards so there must have been some kind of settlements before the classical times. If current distribution has nothing to do with ancient history then of course that should apply to all haplogroups. No? We see when we have reliable ancient samples although it seems that we can also draw some rough conclusions from the age of current populations.
 
According to the new Trombetta et al paper, it is M78 which is held to have arisen in North Africa, not E-V13.

From the paper:
"A northern African location is favored for the node defining the M78 subclade (posterior probability O.76) supporting the previous hypothesis of Cruciani et al (2007).

indeed, and it also confirms the ages between haplogroup EM215 (38.6 kya to 31.4-45.9 kya) and sub-haplogroup E-M35 (25.0 kya; 0-30.0 kya)., the later mutation of M78 happened between 20.3 kya and 14.8 kya in East North Africa (we already knew that). The TMRCA of E-V13 chromosomes (8.1 kya;95% CI 5.6-10.8 kya) which is consistent with previous papers that suggested a post-Neolithicexpansion of this haplogroup in Europe (Cruciani et al 2004; 2007).9un So basically its a confirmation of past papers as to

That would mean that we can roughly calculate 10,000 years of M78 roaming around and expanding before the E-V13 and other subclades were mutated later on.
 
This is Maleth's post from the E-V13 thread. I think it bears re-posting here for some clarity.

"This what Steve Bird (author of the Roman theory for E-V13 in Britian) has to say on the new paper from the E-V13 forum:

(quote) We can improve on this estimate further, however, by recalling that a V13 aDNA skeleton, carbon dated to 7 kya, was found in northeastern Spain recently. This gives us a firm lower boundary for the appearance of V13. Since it is unlikely that the skeleton found in the Spanish cave was the founder of the V13 subclade, an older date of coalescence must be found. We can now say that V13 is AT LEAST 7,000 years old, and perhaps as old as 10,800 years old. The central estimate of 8.1 kya for the TMRCA actually fits quite nicely with the appearance of the V13 skeleton on the Mediterranean coast 7 kya. (It should also be noted that the rho estimate barely overlaps the known 7 kya lower fence but just barely, with the upper 95% CI at 7.3 kya). We are left with a strong estimate of the TMRCA for V13 of 7-10.8 kya (97.5% CI, since we can ignore the portion of the tail that is younger than 7 kya). There is only a 2.5% probability that the "true" TMRCA is older than 10.8 kya and there is zero probability that it is younger than 7 kya.

Another interesting finding is that of Figure S4 (Supplementary Figures). Using a posterior probability of ancestral geographic location, the authors predict a nearly 100% probability of the geographic origin of V13 being in Europe. The analysis includes one Druze male subject (from Israel), which accounts for the extremely small sliver of Asian probability seen in the pie chart of S4. This is very significant because it moves the theoretical origin of V13 from the Levant/Anatolia to the Balkan peninsula proper. (/quote)"

Is it still possible that the specific "father" of the E-V13 cluster that dominates the Balkans today came to the area from somewhere nearby in the Aegean? Yes, I think it is, because the upstream clade might have been pretty widespread, if perhaps scarce, and the one that got his break in the Bronze Age need not have been specifically in one precise area. However, I'm persuaded that this cluster has been in the Balkans from at least the Bronze Age, and probably since the Neolithic.

The issue of the Pelasgians is a separate one. I don't often quote Wiki, but this happens to comport with what I have read before about the Pelasgians.

"The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæzdʒiənz, -dʒənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

I'm the last one to say the ancient authors should be slavishly followed as to ethnography and geography, but in this case, they all seem to be in agreement as to the general area:

Location of Pelasgians based on ancient authors.jpg

Is this proof that the "Pelasgians" were E-V13 pre Greeks? No it doesn't. We will have to wait for ancient Greek samples from before the time of the steppe migrations, but even then, I don't know if the issue can be settled, because we don't have specific cultural artifacts, burials, etc. that we can definitely label as "Pelasgian". We will get an idea, however, as to whether E-V13 was already in Greece and the areas north of it before the steppe people came.

My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.
 
I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

"The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia. "
 
In 1854, an Austrian diplomat and Albanian language specialist, Johann Georg von Hahn, identified the Pelasgian language with Ur-Albanian. This theory has been rejected by modern scholars but is still supported by some Albanian nationalists. (y)


Milan, up to now, there is no scientific links between Albanian and Pelazgian language, we dont even know what Pelazgian language is or was....The link here however might be genetical (greek, albanian), language is a different topic and so too genetics.
 
Garrick: I think that fundamental paper is still: Cruciani et al., 2007. According authors:

"The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern Africa is the result of a more recent introgression. Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in the Near East/Anatolia. "

It appears that Cruciani has changed his mind, as he is a co-author of the new Trombetta et al paper quoted above. In fact, correspondence is to be addressed to him.


"Phylogeographic refinement and large scale genotyping of human Y chromosome haplogroup E provide new insights into the dispersal of early pastoralists in the African continent.


+ Author Affiliations

  • 1Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “C. Darwin”, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
  • 2The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, U.K. (present address);
  • 3Dipartimento di Biologia Ambientale, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
  • 4Accademia Europea di Bolzano (EURAC), Istituto per le Mummie e l'Iceman, Bolzano, Italy;
  • 5Dipartimento di Sanità Pubblica e Malattie Infettive, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
  • 6Laboratoire d’Anthropologie Moléculaire et Imagerie de Synthèse, UMR 5288, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS), Université Toulouse-3–Paul-Sabatier, Toulouse, France;
  • 7Department of Animal Biology-Anthropology, Biodiversity Research Institute, University of Barcelona, Barcelona, Spain;
  • 8Pediatrics Department, TOBB-Economy and Technology University Hospital, 06510, Ankara, Turkey
  • 9Istituto di Biologia e Patologia Molecolari, CNR, Roma 00185, Italy;
  • 10Dipartimento di Medicina Interna e Specialità Mediche, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome 00185, Italy;
  • 11Dipartimento di Biologia, Università di Roma “Tor Vergata”, Rome 00133, Italy.

  • *Author for Correspondence: Fulvio Cruciani, Dipartimento di Biologia e Biotecnologie “C. Darwin”, Sapienza Università di Roma, Rome, Italy, Tel: +39 06 49912826, Fax: +39 06 4456866; e-mail: [email protected]"
 
@Garrick,

I think the following part of your post upthread more appropriately belongs in the Pinhasi et al thread discussing ancient dna results than in a thread about Pelasgians and E-V13, so I am going to repost it there.

"We have:

NG21-10 Vinca sample from Serbia
K8 NG21-10
ANE 0
South_Eurasian 0
ENF 41.1
East_Eurasian 0
WHG 58.9
Oceanian 0
Pygmy 0
Sub-Saharan 0

It is very high WHG. It is fascinating that Vinca can have more WHG than European people today. If this means that indigenous or old Europeans (I haplogroup) could produce own systems without Near Easterners? We will see newer findings."
 
My hunch based on all these studies is yes, it was, but regardless of whether it was there before the first steppe incursions or with Bronze Age migrations, it's crystal clear that it was there before the "Slavs" came anywhere near the Balkans.

I must give answer, it can be important for thread.

The matter is very complex and we should much more knowledge and new studies.

We know a little about subject, what we know about Slavs is group of nations who speak one family of language.

Generally assumption is that Slavic haplogroup is R1a and that I2a carriers are like some "heelers", all culture and IE language is from R1a. We think languages of I2, and I1 too, are extinct. It is "actual wisdom." The picture is not much "happy" for the oldest haplogroup in Europe.

But, is it really so?

A lot of that we don't know. However, knowledge arises with newer studies.

First Vinca sample from Serbia which we saw tell us that WHG is very big. In different forums people write that high probability is that Vinca people were I carriers, more precise, I2 carriers.

Of course, several samples in Europe says that haplogroup I2 was found in Mesholitic!, and they were all hunter gatherers. We know that carriers of haplogropup I are old Europeans.

We can see in Eupedia:

Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from very minor haplogroups like C6 and deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ sometime between 40,000 and 30,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. In other words, Cro-Magnons most probably belonged to IJ and I (alongside older haplogroups like F and C6).
...

Now, we will see Cucuteni Trypillian culture. According to Macimo:

When I first tried to answer this question in 2009, before the first ancient Y-DNA test was performed, I thought that all Neolithic cultures in Europe would be a blend of G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. But Cucuteni-Tripolye was different as it clearly had a stronger Mesolithic European influence, which is why I stated from the beginning that I2 would be a major haplogroup, if not the dominant one of this culture.

It is very interesting, older Vinca (5700-4500 BC) and younger Cucuteni-Trypillia (4800-3000 BC), probably both have dominant I2! We will see if it is true.

(Vinca: place in Serbia; Cucuteni, place in Romania; Trypillia: place in Ukraine.)

But we can see more interesting things. For example:


320px-MotherGoddessFertility.JPG


Mother Earth in Cucuteni Trypolye culture

We can compare:

image.png


Mother Earth with her baby from Vinca/Starcevo culture

We can see similarity. It is possible that continuity exists between two cultures! Of course probability is higher if carriers of same haplogroup created these culture.
...

With website: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm

Some scholars believe that the Vinča symbols represent the earliest form of writing ever found, predating ancient Egyptian and Sumerian writing by thousands of years. Since the inscriptions are all short and appear on objects found in burial sites, and the language represented is not known, it is highly unlikely they will ever be deciphered.

Vinca letters

View attachment 7344

These I2 carriers weren't unintelligent, maybe they invented the letters before ancient Egyptians and Summerians.
...

We will not go away. But what if exists continuity between these two cultures and later cultures?

Angela do not get me wrong, but some R people (R1a, R1b anyway) think everything flowed from them.

But what if R1a carriers received culture of I2 carriers? (Or at least it was a mutual exchange where I2a carriers were not subaltern.)

How you see we don't know a lot. We cannot come to speak about Slavs until we understand the moving and expansion of haplogroups, especially I2, and complex relations and exchange cultures and languages between I2 and R1a carriers, and certainly carriers of other haplogroups who have contributed creating Proto Slavs.

It is possible that Vinca culture and Cucuteni Trypilla culture played significant role.
...

Vinca culture, territory:

Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg


Cucuteni Trypillia culture, territory:

Cucuteni-Tripol%27ye_Culture_Outline_Map.png
 

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