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Thread: Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

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    Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

    Was recently been researching about E-V!3...we dont know yet if ancient greeks are the natives of south east Europe or they came from other locations....

    As per E-V13 we know that its around 10,000 years, clearly way before ancient greeks. Ive ben reading about palasgians that they were the natives of that region and therefore assuming that they are the ones with E-V13.

    We also know that E-V13 has its highest percentage in Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

    I was wondering if we can share some thoughts and references regarding this...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E-V13
    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5
    Kosovo Albanians 5.5 2.5 0 4.5 21 0 16.5 0 47.5
    Albanians (Macedonia) 1 9 1.5 18.8 1.6 21.9 39.1
    Greece (Peloponnese) 47
    Greece (South) 3 20 2.2 19.6 5.5 43.5
    Greece (North) 2 12 19 14.6 5.2 35.4
    Greece (Crete) 13 8.8 17 39 8.8
    Greece (Thrace) 19 22 12 19 19
    Greece (ethnic Greeks) 19 16 11.7 9 17 19
    Macedonia (ethnic Slavic) 1 33 1.5 5.1 15.2 1.5 24.1
    Bulgaria 4 20 2 17 11 5 11 3 23.5
    Bosniaks 4 56 0 16 3 2 3.5 0.5 10
    Bosnian Croats 0 71 2 12 2 1 1 0 9
    Bosnian Serbs 2.5 31 2.5 13.5 6 1 8.5 0 22.5
    Croatia 5.5 37 1 24 8.5 2 6 1 10
    Serbia 8.5 33 0.5 16 8 2 8 0.5 18

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    100 theories and 100 different opinions (a saying we have locally). Im not very good at retrieving old posts on this forum as my search always results in nothing found, but E-V13 has been discussed extensively here and there from time to time.

    As things stand my opinion is that E-V13 is born somewhere in Balkans and was exported to other regions were it comes in medium to rare occurrences. If it really was mutated in West Asia, then soon after the mutation the guy was very quick to cross over to the Balkans and make lots of babies there. The Island hopping from North Africa is too hard to digest at this stage so not even considered. The fact the the highest percentages are found in countries to the north of Greece and in South Greece itself makes all the more interesting and to add more to the mystery the 7000 year old skeleton found in Iberia makes it all the MORE intriguing.........just have to wait for more reliable results from the professionals.

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    E-V13

    1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

    Notes[edit]

    Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4] Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]

    9000 year ago in Anatolia :
    http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

    During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
    This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

    these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
    (these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

    arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture


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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    Was recently been researching about E-V!3...we dont know yet if ancient greeks are the natives of south east Europe or they came from other locations....

    As per E-V13 we know that its around 10,000 years, clearly way before ancient greeks. Ive ben reading about palasgians that they were the natives of that region and therefore assuming that they are the ones with E-V13.

    We also know that E-V13 has its highest percentage in Albanian speaking regions and Greek speaking regions.

    I was wondering if we can share some thoughts and references regarding this...



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E-V13
    Albania 2 12 1.5 9 16 1.5 19.5 2 27.5
    Kosovo Albanians 5.5 2.5 0 4.5 21 0 16.5 0 47.5
    Albanians (Macedonia) 1 9 1.5 18.8 1.6 21.9 39.1
    Greece (Peloponnese) 47
    Greece (South) 3 20 2.2 19.6 5.5 43.5
    Greece (North) 2 12 19 14.6 5.2 35.4
    Greece (Crete) 13 8.8 17 39 8.8
    Greece (Thrace) 19 22 12 19 19
    Greece (ethnic Greeks) 19 16 11.7 9 17 19
    Macedonia (ethnic Slavic) 1 33 1.5 5.1 15.2 1.5 24.1
    Bulgaria 4 20 2 17 11 5 11 3 23.5
    Bosniaks 4 56 0 16 3 2 3.5 0.5 10
    Bosnian Croats 0 71 2 12 2 1 1 0 9
    Bosnian Serbs 2.5 31 2.5 13.5 6 1 8.5 0 22.5
    Croatia 5.5 37 1 24 8.5 2 6 1 10
    Serbia 8.5 33 0.5 16 8 2 8 0.5 18
    Pellasgian preancient Greeks?
    Seriously?
    If they were pre ancient greeks, why are they pellasgians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    E-V13

    1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

    Notes[edit]

    Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4] Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]

    9000 year ago in Anatolia :
    http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

    During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
    This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

    these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
    (these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

    arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture

    Thank you for the analysis and its very interesting flow of possible origins. However none of the articles gives a breakdown of haplogroups except for the E-M78 clade which is further down stream to E-V13 and therefore E-V13 was not mutated yet. The verdict is still not out to were E-V13 is mutated with any accuracy. As I still believe that if E-V13 was mutated in West Asia or Anatolia then, I would imagine for this haplogroup to be a little more popular there then it is today. According to Eupidia Map E-V13 is only present in any significant Numbers on the costal areas of West asia (that were Hellenized at some point in time before the ottoman take over), so there is also a good explanation for the export. (There is an exception with the inner areas of more or less Kurd territory)

    I would presume that according to this pattern, this would mean an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. This clade is very rare in North Africa besides the fact that is mostly found amongst Libyan Jews. It is also well known that there had been a strong Greek presence in Lower Egypt (meaning coastal North Egypt) since classical times, and still its still not presented there in any significant numbers. Again its very obvious to me that this is an export from the balkans and not the other way round. My opinion can change as more reliable info come in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    100 theories and 100 different opinions (a saying we have locally). Im not very good at retrieving old posts on this forum as my search always results in nothing found, but E-V13 has been discussed extensively here and there from time to time.

    As things stand my opinion is that E-V13 is born somewhere in Balkans and was exported to other regions were it comes in medium to rare occurrences. If it really was mutated in West Asia, then soon after the mutation the guy was very quick to cross over to the Balkans and make lots of babies there. The Island hopping from North Africa is too hard to digest at this stage so not even considered. The fact the the highest percentages are found in countries to the north of Greece and in South Greece itself makes all the more interesting and to add more to the mystery the 7000 year old skeleton found in Iberia makes it all the MORE intriguing.........just have to wait for more reliable results from the professionals.
    Thats what ive ben reading too, So as far as we know E-V13 is born in South East (parts of Albanian Speaking regions and Greek speaking regions) and it didnt came from anywhere else...
    Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
    Cruciani et al. (2007)

    In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

    Therefore, my intention is to know to which population E-V13 was the highest, Ancient Greeks, Pelasgians, or some other tribes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Thank you for the analysis and its very interesting flow of possible origins. However none of the articles gives a breakdown of haplogroups except for the E-M78 clade which is further down stream to E-V13 and therefore E-V13 was not mutated yet. The verdict is still not out to were E-V13 is mutated with any accuracy. As I still believe that if E-V13 was mutated in West Asia or Anatolia then, I would imagine for this haplogroup to be a little more popular there then it is today. According to Eupidia Map E-V13 is only present in any significant Numbers on the costal areas of West asia (that were Hellenized at some point in time before the ottoman take over), so there is also a good explanation for the export. (There is an exception with the inner areas of more or less Kurd territory)

    I would presume that according to this pattern, this would mean an export from the Balkans and not the other way round. This clade is very rare in North Africa besides the fact that is mostly found amongst Libyan Jews. It is also well known that there had been a strong Greek presence in Lower Egypt (meaning coastal North Egypt) since classical times, and still its still not presented there in any significant numbers. Again its very obvious to me that this is an export from the balkans and not the other way round. My opinion can change as more reliable info come in.
    you are right, I just pointed out a possibility

    here are some more elements :

    the origin of E1b1b - M215 is probably the Ethiopian highlands which was an ice age refuge, just south of the Sahara
    you will notice several subclades of E-M215 still live in Ethiopia

    the Nile valley was populated 22-14000 years ago, after which the Nile valley became unihabitable was abandoned for several 1000 years
    this population may have been well have been E-M78, and 14000-15000 years ago the subclades of E-M78 fled the Nile valley
    hence the move of E-V13 toward SW Asia

    as for the Balkans :

    yes, most of E-V13 arrived in the Balkans 7200 years ago and spread from there (few stayed in SW Asia)
    note that first neolithic people arrived in the Balkan only some 8600 years ago, and they were probably G2a
    also note mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece,
    in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago
    this makes mesolithic presence of E-V13 in the Balkans very unlikely

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    you are right, I just pointed out a possibility

    here are some more elements :

    the origin of E1b1b - M215 is probably the Ethiopian highlands which was an ice age refuge, just south of the Sahara
    you will notice several subclades of E-M215 still live in Ethiopia

    the Nile valley was populated 22-14000 years ago, after which the Nile valley became unihabitable was abandoned for several 1000 years
    this population may have been well have been E-M78, and 14000-15000 years ago the subclades of E-M78 fled the Nile valley
    hence the move of E-V13 toward SW Asia

    as for the Balkans :

    yes, most of E-V13 arrived in the Balkans 7200 years ago and spread from there (few stayed in SW Asia)
    note that first neolithic people arrived in the Balkan only some 8600 years ago, and they were probably G2a
    also note mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece,
    in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago
    this makes mesolithic presence of E-V13 in the Balkans very unlikely

    Dienekes gives E-V13 in Balkans around 2000 BC meaning 4-4200 ky from now
    date which cognates with Konya DNA the closest near by,

    Pelasgians have nothing to do with E-V13, cause the name Pelasgians is found Historically in areas where even today E-V13 is less than 6%

    pelasgians were J2 and G2 people, or else the ones we call eteoCretans or the Arzawa/assuwa if not IE (anatolian branch)


    The Konya E-V13 date fits exactly with the Kadmeians, not with Pelasgians,

    In NORTH EPIRUS a city was Build by Kadmeians named Phoinike, the E-V13 came from levant, the myth of Phoenician Alphabet,

    if Pelasgians were E-V13 Raetia and Tuscany and sud Tyrol should have high E-V13,
    It is not found in Etruscan tombs,

    Pelasgians and Etruscans are the same,


    I have wrote many times about that, but Albanian propagandistic agenda in order to prove that E-V13 is before and ancient of all other Hgroups insist in the Iberian E-V13,
    so as to make Kadmeians as Pelasgians and Etruscans,

    so I am to post the result of Dienekes about Balkanic E-V13 to show that is not pelasgian,
    Besides all ancient Historians connect Pelasgians with Thyrrenians (Etruscans sardinians etc)
    and the archaiological found prove that with Lemnean stele.

    no if someone wants to connect Etruscans Sardinians and Generally Villanovans with E-v13 it is his problem,
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    E-V13

    1 st move from Africa to Anatolia 14000 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushabian_culture

    Notes[edit]

    Although a migration of people from Africa bringing E-M78 lineages into the Levant took place c. 14,700 years ago[16] it as yet cannot be linked with any of the Levantine cultures at the time (Hamran, Mushabian, Ramonian, Geometric Kebaran) or later (Natufian, Harifian, Khiamian) since all are known to have originated in the Levant.[3][4] Since a material culture cannot be connected with the E-M78 immigrants into the Levant it is likely they were assimilated into the various Levantine cultures beginning with the Ramonian culture, which was present in the Sinai 14,700 years ago. This migration coincided with the population overflow in the Sinai and Negev that caused the Geometric Kebarans to fall back to the Mediterranean core area which in turn caused them to develop the Natufian culture as a result of the population increase in the Mediterranean park forest.[17]

    9000 year ago in Anatolia :
    http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

    During the most recent ice age, milk was essentially a toxin to adults because — unlike children — they could not produce the lactase enzyme required to break down lactose, the main sugar in milk. But as farming started to replace hunting and gathering in the Middle East around 11,000 years ago, cattle herders learned how to reduce lactose in dairy products to tolerable levels by fermenting milk to make cheese or yogurt. Several thousand years later, a genetic mutation spread through Europe that gave people the ability to produce lactase — and drink milk — throughout their lives. That adaptation opened up a rich new source of nutrition that could have sustained communities when harvests failed.
    This two-step milk revolution may have been a prime factor in allowing bands of farmers and herders from the south to sweep through Europe and displace the hunter-gatherer cultures that had lived there for millennia. “They spread really rapidly into northern Europe from an archaeological point of view,” says Mark Thomas, a population geneticist at University College London. That wave of emigration left an enduring imprint on Europe, where, unlike in many regions of the world, most people can now tolerate milk. “It could be that a large proportion of Europeans are descended from the first lactase-persistent dairy farmers in Europe,” says Thomas.

    these moving to Europe were E-V13, J1 and T among others
    (these moving to Africa : R1b-V88 and T)

    arrival in the Balkans 7200 years ago : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamangia_culture


    Very interesting theories, however I support the Maleth claim that the export came from Balkans to the costal north Egypt and not the other way around...

    E-V13 coming from Levant is not supported by DNA links...it is at at the very lowest % on that region, i think just about 2%...and in north Africa even lower 0.9%

    Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
    Cruciani et al. (2007)


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I fail to see how any of you could know when E-V13 was first present in southeastern Europe.

    The only E-V13 ancient sample we have is indeed 7,200 years old, of course. It was found in a Neolithic context in western Europe. I think the evidence is persuasive that it was part of the Neolithic migrations from the eastern Mediterranean, if not specifically the Balkans.

    So, presumably, it would have been present at least some time before 7,200 years ago in the area of dispersal of the Neolithic. How much before is just guesswork. Until we have an ancient E-V13 sample from the Balkans, or perhaps from the Aegean, we won't have the answer.

    See the following thread:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...plogroup+E-V13

    From that thread:
    "What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

    None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

    It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.

    What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

    Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.

    See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...E1b1bRoute.png

    I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

    One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

    For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.

    The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

    That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

    The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...autBrucato2011

    See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
    http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

    As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
    http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-con...urope-map1.gif
    Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

    It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
    http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wo...e15_image1.jpg

    However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
    http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress..../ancient-y.png

    Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.

    If someone wishes to quibble with the Bronze Age date (based on pedigree type rates) for the expansion of E-V13 in the Balkans, that's fine. The alternative is to use the Zivitovsky rate which is 2 1/2 times slower, which would mean it had its massive expansion way back in the Neolithic.

    There is no evidence whatsoever, to my knowledge, linking E-V13 to the Caucasus (that is G and J2 country) or the Turks, or some mythical group of Egyptians. Nor is there any indication so far that it came to Europe by way of Gibraltar. That is highly probable, of course, for at least some of E-M81, which has a very different history and distribution.

    We try to deal with science and recorded history here, not myths or things used as calumnies of one sort or another.

    It would help further discussion to read the relevant cited papers. and if there is disagreement, to cite contradictory papers.
    "

    As I discussed with Maleth, I am not married to the opinion that the precise E-V13 mutation took place in the Levant. Maybe it took place somewhere in the Aegean or the Balkans. I'm not sure yet.

    This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    From that thread:
    "What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

    The excellent time for expansion of new clads are the cultural/economic collapses, and we had quite few of them through Neolithic to present. I think we are going to see a dominance of G and E haplogroups in Neolithic. Then shift to J2 and J1 during copper age. After Bronze Age collapse we see dominance of R1b and R1a. They arrived in Bronze Age but true expansion of the them happened after the collapse. This might have been good time for E-V13 expansion, or it expanded to current coverage after Dark Ages when Balkans were depopulated, together with I2a-Din. Expansion happened from small secluded communities who survived fairly intact.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This obsession with Pelasgians is very misplaced, in my opinion. This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks. They didn't know about ydna and didn't carry around spit containers to test it. No doubt the "Pelasgians" they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.
    definition of who/what pelasgians were is not clear
    i'd say they were the indogenous people of Greece before the arrival of the Myceneans some 3700 years ago
    so they were a mixed people from many different haplogroups, E-V13 is (probably) only one of them

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

    Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

    The answer is that it arrived late into Europe
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.
    as I mentioned above :
    mesolithic people did not live in the Balkans except north of the Donau, and the coastal areas of southern Greece,

    in other words : the Balkans were virtualy uninhabited prior to 8600 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    they came across were very EEF people of various yDna and mtDna combinations in different proportions depending on the group.
    This is something we very often ignore. Many ancient groups of peoples have been living in a particular geographical area for a long period of time before expanding further so the opportunity to mix was big. While one haplogroup could have a higher percentage then other they would have been pretty mixed already, very much like today. When one considers that homosapien migration from Africa started around 70,000 years ago, the entries in Europe (comparitively) are pretty recent ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

    Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

    The answer is that it arrived late into Europe
    Which haplogroup is dispersed evenly in Europe? Not sure what your assumption has got to do with E-V13 age? Let science work on it, it can give better answers

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    ...........

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Dienekes gives E-V13 in Balkans around 2000 BC meaning 4-4200 ky from now
    date which cognates with Konya DNA the closest near by,

    Pelasgians have nothing to do with E-V13, cause the name Pelasgians is found Historically in areas where even today E-V13 is less than 6%

    Pelasgians seem to be all around north to the south, Peloponnese area too, Check the map of HOMER
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Pelasgians.jpg

    So according ti Homer this looks like its actually the opposite....
    Region/Haplogroup I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E-V13
    Greece (Peloponnese) 47
    Greece (South) 3 20 2.2 19.6 5.5 43.5
    Greece (North) 2 12 19 14.6 5.2 35.4
    Greece (ethnic Greeks) 19 16 11.7 9 17 19
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...y_ethnic_group

    FYI there is no such thing as 6% of E-V13 in Greece, current modern greeks have 19% of E-V13

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think I mentioned that before, I am wary of the concept of "Pelasgians", and it makes fairly little sense in the context of genetics, in my opinion. To make matters worse the term has been on and off (including by people who used to be on this board) hijacked.

    It makes some sense in linguistics (in the sense of "pre-Greek" languages, but you should consider that this is a modern coinage, with a different definition from the one given by Homer), but its fairly obvious that there was not "one" pre-Greek language. If anything, you can talk of Pelasgian "languages" that existed in the Agaean (two, for certain: Minoan in Crete, Lemnian on Lemnos, there may have been more), which were not related with one another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I think I mentioned that before, I am wary of the concept of "Pelasgians", and it makes fairly little sense in the context of genetics, in my opinion. To make matters worse the term has been on and off (including by people who used to be on this board) hijacked.

    It makes some sense in linguistics (in the sense of "pre-Greek" languages, but you should consider that this is a modern coinage, with a different definition from the one given by Homer), but its fairly obvious that there was not "one" pre-Greek language. If anything, you can talk of Pelasgian "languages" that existed in the Agaean (two, for certain: Minoan in Crete, Lemnian on Lemnos, there may have been more), which were not related with one another.
    There is written evidence about Pelasgians. They probably were I1 and I2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Why is it that E-V13 is concentrated in one area in europe and not dispersed evenly throughout Europe especially if it entered Europe very early as some say?

    Is there E-V13 on all coastal areas of the med. as well as all islands of the med.?

    The answer is that it arrived late into Europe
    I don't think so. It peaks in the Balkans, but is rather common in southern Italy and Spain.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This is what i found so far...according to some sources Pelazgians (also called minoans) were the inhabitants living in those regions....

    The name Pelasgians (/pəˈlæziənz, -ənz, -ɡiənz/; Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí; singular: Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that either were the ancestors of the Greeks or preceded the Greeks in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably indigenous people in the Greek world".[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the indigenous inhabitants of the Aegean Sea region and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete, and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language or languages that at the time Greeks identified as "barbaric", even though some ancient writers described the Pelasgians as Greeks. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. These parts generally fell within the ethnic domain that by the 5th century BC was attributed to those speakers of ancient Greek who were identified as Ionians.
    Homer[edit]

    The Pelasgians first appear in the poems of Homer: those who are stated to be Pelasgians in the Iliad are among the allies of Troy. In the section known as theCatalogue of Trojans, they are mentioned between mentions of the Hellespontine cities and the Thracians of south-eastern Europe (i.e., on the Hellespontine border ofThrace).[11] Homer calls their town or district "Larisa"[12] and characterises it as fertile, and its inhabitants as celebrated for their spearsmanship. He records their chiefs as Hippothous and Pylaeus, sons of Lethus son of Teutamus, thus giving all of them names that were Greek or so thoroughly Hellenized that any foreign element has been effaced.
    In the Odyssey, Odysseus, affecting to be Cretan himself, instances Pelasgians among the tribes in the ninety cities of Crete, "language mixing with language side by side".[13]
    The Iliad also refers to "Pelasgic Argos",[14] which is most likely to be the plain of Thessaly,[15] and to "Pelasgic Zeus", living in and ruling over Dodona,[16] which must be the oracular one in Epirus. However, neither passage mentions actual Pelasgians; Myrmidons, Hellenes, and Achaeans specifically inhabit Thessaly and the Selloi are around Dodona. They all fought on the Greek side.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


    The name Pelasgians, was used by ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that preceded the White Hellenes in Greece. During the classical period, enclaves under that name survived in several locations of mainland Greece, Crete and other regions of the Aegean. Populations identified as "Pelasgian" spoke a language that at the time, Greeks identified as not Greek. A tradition also survived that large parts of Greece had once been Pelasgian before being Hellenized. Archaeological excavations during the 20th century have unearthed artifacts in areas traditionally inhabited by the Pelasgians, like Thessaly and Attica and Lemnos. Archaeologists excavating at Sesklo and Dimini have described Pelasgian material culture as Neolithic.
    Since next to nothing is known about the Pelasgians, The question of who built Mycenae (The first great city on mainland Greece), looms large. According to the White Greeks (the Hellenes) myth of Danaus, the building of Mycenae was a collaborative effort between Crete and Egypt. But since Mycenae was build at about 2,000 B.C, almost one thousand years before the Hellenes arrived in Greece, there can be no confidence that the hellenic myth has any factual basis.
    http://realhistoryww.com/world_histo..._Greece_1a.htm

    I also found this pretty interesting, it might show some good links, although in some extent it might be nationalistic...

    1. The Greeks and the Albanians have a common origin from the proto-Greek race of Pelasgians.

    6. The Greek-Pelasgian civilization predates the Eastern civilizations. The Sumerians were Pelasgians. The Sumerian language consisted of Greek and Albanian words and its structure was similar with the structure of the Albanian language. The theory of “ex oriente lux” (the light from the East) is overturned and the theory of “ex Balkan lux” (the light from the Balkan) is supported with proofs, as the Balkan was the cradle of civilization.
    http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home

    Maybe this might be a link that Civilizations were actually spread from the south east Europe to north Egypt and to Sumerians....




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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I don't think so. It peaks in the Balkans, but is rather common in southern Italy and Spain.
    E-v13 is quite rare anywhere in Italy.


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    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    There is written evidence about Pelasgians. They probably were I1 and I2
    Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    I also found this pretty interesting, it might show some good links, although in some extent it might be nationalistic...
    Might be?

    1. The Greeks and the Albanians have a common origin from the proto-Greek race of Pelasgians.
    Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

    The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.

    6. The Greek-Pelasgian civilization predates the Eastern civilizations. The Sumerians were Pelasgians. The Sumerian language consisted of Greek and Albanian words and its structure was similar with the structure of the Albanian language. The theory of “ex oriente lux” (the light from the East) is overturned and the theory of “ex Balkan lux” (the light from the Balkan) is supported with proofs, as the Balkan was the cradle of civilization.
    http://www.greeks-albanians.com/eng-m-home

    Maybe this might be a link that Civilizations were actually spread from the south east Europe to north Egypt and to Sumerians....
    Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics...

    - Sumerian is an isolate language.
    - Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
    - Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Did the ancient Greeks have their DNA tested and then wrote down their results? I don't think so.



    Might be?



    Absolutely wrong. The Albanians have absolutely nothing to do with the Pelasgians: there is no common substrate in Greek and Albanian (in that case, you might argue for ). And to ad-hoc label the pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Balkans as "Pelasgians" has absolutely no basis. If you want to use the term correctly, you should talk about the Pre-Indo-European inhabitants of the Aegean.

    The idea that the Albanians have something to do with the Pelasgians is entirely a confabulation from the 19th and 20th centuries.



    Jeez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics...

    - Sumerian is an isolate language.
    - Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
    - Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.
    Greek historians wrote about Pellasgians for 15 hundred years. If you are curious, there is on Wikipedia some sources where you have to look. The idea is that Pellasgians were among the first inhabitants of the Balkans, Anatolia and Italic peninsula.Just google Pellasgians. There is linguistic evidence for this claim. Since its accepted that the ice age inhabitants of Europe were I1 and I2 people it makes sense that Pellasgians were one of them.
    Albanian claim is that we might have inherited more than others linguistically and genetically from Pellasgians, but not that we are Pellasgians. Pellasgians eventually were Hellenized, Illyrianized or Romanized.
    I don't know if if this makes sense to you?

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