Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

[noUseForAname]

Then why do you quote text that talks about mixing if you don't understand what they say...

Maciamo was arguing that E-V13 didn't came from Levant nor Anatolia. Therefore it didn't mixed with J2 or other haplogroups.

FYI, y dna (E-V13) cannot be mixed with say J2, admixed with lets say when E-V13 was there J2 came and admixed, meaning from there both y dna might have mixed with female counterpart as E-V13 and J2 cannot be mixed, they are both from male genes.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Georgiev gives very strong arguments about link Albanians with Dacians, i.e. Romanians (not necessarily nationaly but geographicaly), which indicate that Albanians originate somewhere from Romania.

According Georgiev Albanian has no link with Illyiran, and Illyrians are not ancestors of Albanians.

Of course, Pelasgian nothing to do with Albanian.

(Certainly Pelasgian and Illyrian has no link, completely different).

Georgiev argues:

1) Illyrian toponims from antiquty are completely different from Albanian phonetic laws;

2) Ancient Latin loanwords in Albanian have phonetic form from Latin East Balkan (proto-Romanian) and no from West Balkan Latin (for example they have no link with Old Dalmatian);

3) Marine terms in Albanian is borrowed from different languages suggesting that Albanians were not coastal people;

4) Very few Ancient Greek loanwords exist in Albanian, it means that Albanians and Greeks have no link;

5) There is no reference in any source about Albanian in today areas before Middle Age;

6) Hundred and hundred Romanian words are similar only to Albanian words, and if someone combines this with similar Latin words in Albanian and Romanian, he or she can give conclusion that Albanians originate from some areas of today Romania.

These arguments are serious and they cannot simply be dismissed, but Albanian scientists often dismisse it, in favor Illyrian link, for they have nothing to prove, on the contrary, Illyrian was CENTUM and Albanian is SATEM.

Processed from the book: Early Medieval Balkans, University of Michigan Press, Fine J. V. A.

Is not proven yet, illyrian was centum. There are indices of both, satem and centum. The majority of the serious scholars agree that Albanian evolved fron illyrian . There are all the indices showing this fact. If you like to dream, this is your problem, go on. Georgeiev, is the only one supporting the Albanian connection with dacian. He failed. There is none ancient source of a migration spreading from Romania to Albania. Of course, except Slavic tribes. Romans knew all the population movements spreading inside empire. Those claims are becoming ridiculous.

 

[Piro Ilir]

You can be precise, it is not my theory, it is Georgiev theory, this scientist set it based on extensive research.

It has link with topic to avoid unnecessary confusion about connections between the present and the past that does not exist.

Georgiev theory, failed times ago,. So, stop proclaiming his theory.

 

[Pax Augusta]

This is just a word used by Greeks for certain groups of non-Greeks.

Absolutely true.

 

[noUseForAname]

It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. Proto-Indo-European is conventionally dated to circa 3500 BC, yes, but by no means does that mean that, for example, Greek or Albanian (in their modern forms) are that old, because they clearly aren't.

For Greek, we do have the attestation of Mycenaean Greek (from the Bronze Age), which is very different from modern Greek, and even quite different from the classical Greek of, say, one Homer.

Within Indo-European, Greek and Albanian are indeed not closely related and as far as their phonetical evolution goes, they have little commonalities: Greek is a Centum language (the "palato-velar" sounds of PIE are merged with the "plain" velars), while Albanian is a Satem language (the "palato-velars" are expressed as fricatives - in the case of Albanian mainly *θ and *ð). Further, Albanian has Proto-Indo-European *o shifted to *a (a commonality it has with Germanic and Balto-Slavic). In contrast, Greek has shifted word-initial *s- to *h- (a commonality it has with Armenian and the Iranic languages).

About loanwords in Albanian, I'd like to pick Latin ones for a demonstration, since they make up a large part of the Albanian vocabulary:

mik (friend - 'amicus')
qen (dog - 'canis')
qytet (town/city - 'civitas')
peshk (fish - 'pisces')
pulë ('chicken' - pullus)
shok (friend - 'socius')

If Albanian borrowed all these words from Latin, and they are subject to subsequent phonetic evolution, by what logic is Albanian "5000 years old" if the language was a very different one 2000 years ago?

About E-V13, as you know it has been found in one of the Neolithic sites from Spain, suggesting it was once widespread in Europe in the Neolithic, considerably older than PIE.

of course it has some latin or other words (as all the languages have), however by no means it is not "large part" as you mentioned
Check the Illyrian words borrowed by modern albanian....

Cognates with Illyrian[edit]

See also: Illyrian languages

• Andena/Andes/Andio/Antis — personal Illyrian names based on a root-word and- or ant-, found in both the southern and the Dalmatian-Pannonian (including modern Bosnia and Herzegovina) onomastic provinces; cf. Alb. andë (northern Albanian dialect, or Gheg) and ëndë (southern Albanian dialect or Tosk) "appetite, pleasure, desire, wish"; Andi proper name, Andizetes, an Illyrian people inhabiting the Roman province of Panonia.^[64]
• aran "field"; cf. Alb. arë; plural ara^[65]
• Ardiaioi/Ardiaei, name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. ardhja "arrival" or "descent", connected to hardhi "vine-branch, grape-vine", with a sense development similar to Germanic *stamniz, meaning both stem, tree stalk and tribe, lineage. However, the insufficiency of this theory is that so far there is no certainty as to the historical or etymological development of either ardhja/hardhi or Ardiaioi, as with many other words.^[64]
• Bilia "daughter"; cf. Alb. bijë, dial. bilë^[66]
• Bindo/Bindus, an Illyrian deity from Bihać, Bosnia and Herzegovina; cf. Alb. bind "to convince" or "to make believe", përbindësh "monster".^[67]
• bounon, "hutt, cottage"; cf. Alb bun^[68]
• brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" ( < PA *brutiā)^[69]
• Barba- "swamp", a toponym from Metubarbis; possibly related to Alb. bërrakë "swampy soil"^[69]
• can- "dog"; related to Alb. qen^[69]
• Daesitiates, a name of an Illyrian people, cf. Alb. dash "ram", corresponding contextually with south Slavonic dasa "ace", which might represent a borrowing and adaptation from Illyrian (or some other ancient language).^[64]
• mal, "mountain"; cf. Alb mal^[70]
• bardi, "white"; cf. Alb bardhë^[71]
• drakoina "supper"; cf. Alb. darke, dreke^[72]
• drenis, "deer"; cf. Alb dre, dreni^[68]
• delme "sheep"; cf. Alb dele, Gheg dialect delme^[73]
• dard, "pear"; cf. Alb dardhë^[74]
• Hyllus (the name of an Illyrian king); cf. Alb. yll (hyll in some northern dialects) "star", also Alb. hyj "god", Ylli proper name.^[72]
• sīca, "dagger"; cf. Alb thikë or thika "knife"^[75]
• Ulc-, "wolf" (pln. Ulcinium); cf. Alb ujk "wolf", ulk (Northern Dialect)^[76]
• loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" ( < PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" ( < PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" ( < PA laugista)^[77]
• mag- "great"; cf. Alb. i madh "big , great"^[69]
• mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)^{[citation needed]}
• rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. Old Alb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) ( < PA *rina)^[78]
• Vendum "place"; cf. Proto-Alb. wen-ta (Mod. Alb. vend)^[72]

Early Greek loans[edit]

There are some 30 Ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian.^[79] Many of these reflect a dialect which voiced its aspirants, as did the Macedonian dialect. Other loanwords are Doric; these words mainly refer to commodity items and trade goods and probably came through trade with a now-extinct intermediary.^[11]

• bletë; "hive, bee" < Attic mélitta "bee" (vs. Ionic mélissa).^[80]
• drapër; "sickle" < (NW) drápanon^[81]
• kumbull; "plum" < kokkúmelon^[81]
• lakër; "cabbage, green vegetables" < láchanon "green; vegetable"^[82]
• lëpjetë; "orach, dock" < lápathon^[83]
• lyej; "to smear, oil" < *liwenj < *elaiwā < Gk elai(w)ṓn "oil"^{[clarification needed]}
• mokër; "millstone" < (NW) māchaná "device, instrument"^[79]
• mollë; "apple" < mēlon "fruit"^[84]
• pjepër; "melon" < pépōn
• presh; "leek" < práson^[82]
• shpellë; "cave" < spḗlaion
• trumzë; "thyme" < (NW) thýmbrā, thrýmbrē^[81]

Gothic loans[edit]

Some Gothic loanwords were borrowed through Late Latin, while others came from the Ostrogothic expansion into parts of Praevalitana around Nakšić and the Gulf of Kotor in Montenegro.

• fat; "groom, husband" < Goth brūþfaþs "bridegroom"^[85]

• horr; "scoundrel", horrë; "hussy, whore" < Goth hors "adulterer", *hora "whore"^{[citation needed]}

• shkulkë; "boundary marker for pastures made of branches" < Late Latin sculca < Goth skulka "guardian"^{[citation needed]}
• shkumë; "foam" < Late Latin < Goth skūma^{[citation needed]}
• tirq; "trousers" < Late Latin tubrucus < Goth *þiobrok "knee-britches"; cf. OHG dioh-bruoh, Eng thigh, breeches^{[citation needed]}

After the Slavs arrived in the Balkans, the Slavic languages became an additional source of loanwords. The rise of the Ottoman Empire meant an influx of Turkishwords; this also entailed the borrowing of Persian and Arabic words through Turkish. Many Albanian names (such as Enver Hoxha) are of Turkish origin. Some loanwords from Modern Greek also exist especially in the south of Albania. A lot of the borrowed words have been re-substituted from Albanian rooted words or modern Latinized (international) words.


E-V13 Widespread from south east balkans to Europe, do you have any info about E-V13? its all around this site, yet you have given me nothing on DNA similarities of ancient greece locations and albanians.

 

[Pax Augusta]

It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. .

Also Italian loanwords.

Source:

* Paolo Di Giovine, Dal dukát all'investitór: nove secoli di italiano in Albania (http://www.treccani.it/lingua_italiana/speciali/nazioni/digiovine.html)

* Brunilda Dashi, Italianismi nella lingua albanese, Edizioni Nuova Cultura, 2013 (https://books.google.it/books?id=xGFvGn8dheYC)

Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.

Otherwise it is just an educated guess.

LeBrok, another educated guess.

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeol...land-may-have-been-steppes-ukraine-and-russia


The sound of Proto-Indo-European

http://news.sciencemag.org/2015/02/sound-proto-indo-european

 

[noUseForAname]

So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, Ancient Greek 3,500 - Modern Albanian 1,000 - Modern Greek 500 years old.
This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.

It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is Epirus - Roots of Ancient Greek Thessaly and Lydia.


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf
https://theoreticalecology.wordpres...pansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/

 

[noUseForAname]

Jez. Whoever claimed that was a complete crank, because its in complete ignorance of archaeology and linguistics... :vomitting:

- Sumerian is an isolate language.
- Urbanization and agriculture in the Near East and Egypt is older than in Europe. Archaeology does not lie there.
- Literacy in Mesopotamia (Cuneiform) and Egypt (hieroglyphs) is older than in Europe (Linear A would be the oldest true European writing), again.

Its the very east of Europe Thesaly and Lydia (south west modern Turkey)

Check above the roots of indo European Language (south west modern Turkey)
it might be that it started from there and spread the language 9,000 years ago, some East and some West....

You might be wrong here, Vinca Culture predates 8,000 years old, way before Egypt and Mesopotamia, Archaeology doesn't lie here

 

[Taranis]

Its the very east of Europe Thesaly and Lydia (south west modern Turkey)

Check above the roots of indo European Language (south west modern Turkey)
it might be that it started from there and spread the language 9,000 years ago, some East and some West....

You might be wrong here, Vinca Culture predates 8,000 years old, way before Egypt and Mesopotamia, Archaeology doesn't lie here

There's several problems with that: that Bouckaert paper was discussed quite extensively a while back in this thread, and it was dissected badly over there because it doesn't make any sense. Especially the proposed "homelands" don't make any sense (Balto-Slavic in particular, it assumes a homeland in an area where - at large - Slavic languages weren't spoken until the Migration Period), and the paper seemed utterly ignorant of obviously attested Indo-European languages like Celtiberian in Iberia, and the Scytho-Sarmatian languages in Central Asia.

Also, we don't know what kind of script the Vinca "script" was (or if it even was a real writing system at all), let alone what language it was used to write. Also, both Egyptian hieroglyphs and the Cuneiform script of Mesopotamia bear no relation to it. I'd also like to reiterate that the advent of agriculture was in the Near East, not in Europe. To me the idea "out of the Balkans, the light of civilization" sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

 

[Garrick]

So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, Ancient Greek 3,500 - Modern Albanian 1,000 - Modern Greek 500 years old.
This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.

It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is Epirus - Roots of Ancient Greek Thessaly and Lydia.

But comprehensive research conducted by New Zealand scientists says different.

According that study Albanian has the same roots as Indo-Iranian languages, for example Baluchi (Iranian) or Singhalese (Indic), neither Greek nor Armenian.

This could mean that Albanian is not Balkan language and the ancestors of today's Albanians originating from the today's territory of Northwest Iran or the Southeast Caucasus, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

On the other hand according these scholars Greek and Armenian have same root but they were separated more than 4000 years BC.

 

[hrvat22]

Taranis

sounds to me just like thinly-veiled Balkans nationalism where the modern-day nations of the Balkans (be it Albania, Serbia, or whatever country you want to pick) is insanely projected into the far prehistoric past and proclaimed to have been "always there" and "the mother of all civilization". Which is nonsense, obviously.

Croats are not always on the Balkans at least these present. I2a haplogroup is European and has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans

Croats originally were not Indo-Europeans, but they have become Slavs and Indo-Europeans in White Croatia or southern Poland, where they began to speak Slavic language and genetic partly became Indo European nation mixing with Slavic tribes R1a haplotype..

All those on the Balkans who have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 come from White Croatia as Croats who later divided into Slovenes, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins....language they speak is Croatian language while in Slovenia is Slovenian....

Maybe there were people, probably are with I2a haplogroups earlier on the Balkans but today Croats genetically come from southern Poland and southwestern Ukraine or White Croatia and have nothing to do with Vinca etc...

Serbs are partly Albanian origin and they have second haplotype in population E1b haplogroup which is probably native in Balkans and they are partly always on the Balkans as well large part of Albanians so they could have something with vinca culture if is E1b haplotype on Balkans 7000 years old, if not then they have nothing to do with Vinca...It is the logic

 

[Ike]

@Hrvat22

The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing for all the people who are into subject

 

[hrvat22]

@Hrvat22

The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing for all the people who are into subject

Croat has haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356, earlier mutation is I2a1b2a1a S17250 that has a source in southern Poland and south-western Ukraine....

Only people and state mentioned there is a White Croatia..

Which origin is Bosnian with that haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 ....he arrived in the same hour and minute from the same place as his neighboring Croat... They came from White Croatia and one is Bosnian, one is Montenegrin, one is Serbian one is Croatian... They have the same common ancestor in White Croatia

The way you interpreted haplogroups is distressing

The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic...Obvious is that Croats came from White Croatia as Montenegrins..

 

[Ike]

The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic...

Something like this, or there are mistakes in my interpretation of your interpretation?

 

[hrvat22]

Something like this, or there are mistakes in my interpretation of your interpretation?

View attachment 7261

For Bulgaria and Romania has yet to be see .... Most of the Bosnians, Montenegrins, Serbs, Slovenians less, all those who have mutation Y3548 are White Croatian origin..

People with mutation Y3548 now exist in Bulgaria, Belarus, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Russia ...which means that migration White Croats were in different directions and how much people have White Croatian origin in these countries remains to be seen... In Bosnians, Montenegrins and Serbs White Croatian or Croatian origin has half or little less of these population..in other populations remains to see percentage of haplotypes with this mutation...then you can draw a new map...

 

[Garrick]

All those on the Balkans who have haplotype I2a1b2a1a3 A356 and earlier mutation I2a1b2a1a S17250 come from White Croatia as Croats who later divided into Slovenes, Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins....language they speak is Croatian language while in Slovenia is Slovenian....

It is useless.

On one side we do not know a lot and science is trying to establish the facts through numerous studies.

On the other side haplogroups have nothing to do with nations.

That you're talking about is not a science, not even pseudoscience.

It will take plenty of water Sava and Danube while science does not consider all the dices, every new research can contribute to that direction, but it can refute previous opinions.

 

[LeBrok]

\

The way I interpreted haplogroups is logic.

Do you mean: "My romantic vision of imaginary history"?

 

[hrvat22]

I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed.

Serbs coming from area of Lusatian Serbs to Greek and from a little village in Greek they settling half Balkans ... It's genetic unconfirmed, therefore Porphyrogenitus speaks about Serbs based on settlement of Croats and position of 10th century when in fact in these area existed Serbia..

1526 Turks take inventory of troops in that area (Bosnia, southwestern Serbia and Montenegro) and there is not a single soldier which is Serb...
There exist Anadoli or Turk, Bosnian and Croat soldier.. In present-day southern Serbia is heart of Serbia and there was soldiers who declare themselves as Croats as well as in Montenegro and eastern Bosnia, where Serbs living now ...and it was all Serbian one hundred years earlier in the history...

I remind you that it was after Battle of Nicopolis where are Turks together with Serbs as allies fought against Christian europe..so there is no reason why anyone year 1526 should not declared as Serbian soldier...


I note that parts of these nations are Croatian origin not all nations... among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc. Croats are partly Vlach or Albanian origin...

 

[Yetos]

I'm not a nationalist. We had Serbs who have been taught us that we are all Serbs. Because we speak the same language, we have the same customs, etc. then came genetics and everything has turned...

It is no secret that a large number of Croats during the Turks in Bosnia and Croatia crossing to Islam and Orthodoxy ..it was logical ... Today they are Bosnians and Serbs ..and it is quite evident in genetics ...
In the record is mentions Great Croatia and it is visible on the genealogy tree that White Croats scatter in all directions through europe...


Porphyrogenitus stated that one family of White Croats settled Illyria, Dalmatia and Pannonia...
Priest of Duklja wrote about Red and White Croatia all the way to Albania ...

Therefore it is genetically confirmed.

Serbs coming from area of Lusatian Serbs to Greek and from a little village in Greek they settling half Balkans ... It's genetic unconfirmed, therefore Porphyrogenitus speaks about Serbs based on settlement of Croats and position of 10th century when in fact in these area existed Serbia..

1526 Turks take inventory of troops in that area (Bosnia, southwestern Serbia and Montenegro) and there is not a single soldier which is Serb...
There exist Anadoli or Turk, Bosnian and Croat soldier.. In present-day southern Serbia is heart of Serbia and there was soldiers who declare themselves as Croats as well as in Montenegro and eastern Bosnia, where Serbs living now ...and it was all Serbian one hundred years earlier in the history...

I remind you that it was after Battle of Nicopolis where are Turks together with Serbs as allies fought against Christian europe..so there is no reason why anyone year 1526 should not declared as Serbian soldier...


I note that parts of these nations are Croatian origin not all nations... among Serbs the second haplotype in population is Vlach, Albanian E1b, among Croats is third in population, etc. Croats are partly Vlach or Albanian origin...

The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, away from me to discuss,
the strange in Croatia is that shows, 2 different distributions of Data, one in the Alps and west, and one east of Alps.
now the east of Alps is relative with Bosnia Srbia even Skopje Bulgaria Romania

that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic
but if we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic

 

[hrvat22]

The problem among Croatia and Serbia is that they show the closest linguistic relativity, to be even considered as one language, common geneticks in the core, but different around the core,
now the religious difference, and later historical split due to politicks is another case, away from me to discuss,
the strange in Croatia is that shows, 2 different distributions of Data, one in the Alps and west, and one east of Alps.
now the east of Alps is relative with Bosnia Srbia even Skopje Bulgaria Romania

that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic
but if we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic

that means that if we follow the east part (Zagreb) maybe original tribe/nation of Croats was same/relative with rest south slavic

Slovenians have mainly Dinaric north, he does not exist anymore but I think that Bulgarians and Macedonians had mainly this type haplotype ... therefore differences between the west and the south Balkans are not visible..

It should see what types I2a have Macedonians, Bulgarians and Slovenians...

f we follow the west one the Dinaric Dalmatian tottaly away from rest south slavic, since the next relative HG spot are in Poland and Germany or Greece and lacks in rest south Slavic

In southern Poland is ancestor of Croatian I2a ... in the German and Greek I do not know which are haplotypes so you explain which haplotypes are there..