Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

The term Pelasgians has always been confusing ....................Did the Iliad mention them ( Pelasgians ) as south of the Troad ????

the Phygians as their eastern neighbour
 
Who is sure there has not been other IEans in Greece before Helens? I think the debate is still open. But yes, Pelasgian is confusing, because it can cover a lot of diverse cultures and people.
 
MOESAN said:
Who is sure there has not been other IEans in Greece before Helens? I think the debate is still open. But yes, Pelasgian is confusing, because it can cover a lot of diverse cultures and people.
Click to expand...

I think the debate is not open insofar, as for sure at least in some regions of Greece had to be pre-Greek IE. I'd say especially those related to Proto-Anatolians and Cernavoda were just too close. Greeks were a later wave, which however managed to march deeper into what is now Greece and hopping on the islands, so making a maritime transitions those before seem to have not made, probably also by fusing with local seafarers.
 
Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

Distance to:I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
19.69157688Sicilian
19.92414866S_Italian_Sicilian
20.74236968Morocco_Jews
20.91704807Sephardic_Jews
21.39073631C_Italian
22.39960937Tuscan
23.18561407TSI30
23.34342948Ashkenazi
24.17234370Ashkenazy_Jews
26.77793308Greek
27.14932228O_Italian
27.42703411North_Italian
28.85941268Cypriots
29.30942340N_Italian
31.11091288Sardinian
33.28397062Andalucia
33.76083085Baleares
34.07852256Murcia
34.16161150Canarias
36.14009546Galicia
36.22881588Extremadura
36.88398568Portuguese
36.96227401Lebanese
37.08341543Castilla_Y_Leon
37.39192025Spaniards

 
Jovialis said:
Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

Distance to:I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
19.69157688Sicilian
19.92414866S_Italian_Sicilian
20.74236968Morocco_Jews
20.91704807Sephardic_Jews
21.39073631C_Italian
22.39960937Tuscan
23.18561407TSI30
23.34342948Ashkenazi
24.17234370Ashkenazy_Jews
26.77793308Greek
27.14932228O_Italian
27.42703411North_Italian
28.85941268Cypriots
29.30942340N_Italian
31.11091288Sardinian
33.28397062Andalucia
33.76083085Baleares
34.07852256Murcia
34.16161150Canarias
36.14009546Galicia
36.22881588Extremadura
36.88398568Portuguese
36.96227401Lebanese
37.08341543Castilla_Y_Leon
37.39192025Spaniards
Click to expand...

Also, this sample is a female, and the mtDNA is K1a26.
 
Jovialis said:
Greece Neolithic, who would be the so-call "Pelasgians".

Distance to:I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
19.69157688Sicilian
19.92414866S_Italian_Sicilian
20.74236968Morocco_Jews
20.91704807Sephardic_Jews
21.39073631C_Italian
22.39960937Tuscan
23.18561407TSI30
23.34342948Ashkenazi
24.17234370Ashkenazy_Jews
26.77793308Greek
27.14932228O_Italian
27.42703411North_Italian
28.85941268Cypriots
29.30942340N_Italian
31.11091288Sardinian
33.28397062Andalucia
33.76083085Baleares
34.07852256Murcia
34.16161150Canarias
36.14009546Galicia
36.22881588Extremadura
36.88398568Portuguese
36.96227401Lebanese
37.08341543Castilla_Y_Leon
37.39192025Spaniards
Click to expand...

Neolithic is too early to label Pelasgians, we don't know if Pelasgians were Early Neolithic people or CHG or a mix of both of them, and a chunk of Steppe here and there. Patrilinearly i have four scenarios in mind:

1. G2a.
2. J2a
3. A mix of G2a and J2a
4. E-V13 incomers from Danube, Peleset/Philistines/Pelasgians according to Marija Gimbutas were late-comers to Greece from Danube basin during the Late Bronze Age turmoil, and ancient Greek authors were confused and wrong on their assumptions, but still they can be labelled as Early Neolithic descended people, but incoming from further North, Danube basin.
 
At any rate, here are other Neolithic Greek samples from Matheison et al. 2018, in Dodecad K12b format:

Code: 
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
 
Distance to:Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920
12.55067329Sephardic_Jews
13.93445370Morocco_Jews
14.20389031Sicilian
14.53853500S_Italian_Sicilian
15.98064454Ashkenazi
16.73781646Ashkenazy_Jews
18.70733546Cypriots
20.21094011C_Italian
22.11675835Greek
23.13261334Tuscan
24.47959558TSI30
26.42099922O_Italian
27.40526774Druze
27.74727014Lebanese
29.01828734Turkish
30.07047223Syrians
30.26174152Jordanians
30.65401931Palestinian
31.05522661North_Italian
31.47099140Samaritians
31.86389179Turks
31.88552963N_Italian
33.72596922Iraq_Jews
33.97342785Armenian
34.05508773Assyrian

Distance to:Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
17.70140955Sicilian
17.70880572Sephardic_Jews
17.93321499S_Italian_Sicilian
18.70059357Morocco_Jews
20.46705157Ashkenazi
21.15268068Ashkenazy_Jews
21.61280870C_Italian
23.52872712Tuscan
23.57725175Cypriots
24.75990711TSI30
24.97495145Greek
27.84140083O_Italian
30.40738233North_Italian
31.80412866N_Italian
32.45537398Druze
33.08038996Lebanese
33.31648541Turkish
35.09498967Syrians
35.47444432Jordanians
35.85461895Palestinian
36.25245923Turks
36.62070862Samaritians
36.82807896Sardinian
37.90385469Baleares
37.97744331Andalucia

Distance to:Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
19.40351772Morocco_Jews
19.73851058Sicilian
19.98423128S_Italian_Sicilian
20.21531845Sephardic_Jews
21.74873330C_Italian
23.02683869Tuscan
23.13563269Ashkenazi
23.61503546TSI30
24.18195195Ashkenazy_Jews
27.24194376Greek
27.43963374O_Italian
27.69148244North_Italian
28.97424201Cypriots
29.53746604N_Italian
31.36124838Sardinian
33.14803916Andalucia
33.55961114Canarias
33.57203449Murcia
33.61046712Baleares
35.71862119Galicia
35.85028452Extremadura
36.11957226Lebanese
36.34769319Portuguese
36.70677730Castilla_Y_Leon
36.99598357Druze

Distance to:Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
19.33047594Sicilian
19.57458556S_Italian_Sicilian
20.08565657Sephardic_Jews
20.40588641Morocco_Jews
21.83529940C_Italian
22.65419167Ashkenazi
23.17877477Tuscan
23.44600819Ashkenazy_Jews
24.13538067TSI30
26.48128396Greek
27.12975488Cypriots
27.90359117O_Italian
28.89308049North_Italian
30.64388683N_Italian
33.00872006Sardinian
35.37902486Andalucia
35.67226374Baleares
35.87326442Druze
36.00503298Lebanese
36.14460402Canarias
36.16399314Murcia
36.34873313Turkish
37.78350566Syrians
38.09672952Galicia
38.14858320Jordanians

Distance to:Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427
22.99721722Sicilian
23.15988990S_Italian_Sicilian
23.32663285C_Italian
23.64329715Tuscan
23.76852330Morocco_Jews
24.01698774TSI30
24.54388111Sephardic_Jews
26.72652428Sardinian
26.85388612North_Italian
26.87959263Ashkenazi
27.84898562Ashkenazy_Jews
28.59936887O_Italian
29.16756589N_Italian
29.73029600Greek
30.99162306Andalucia
31.81028922Murcia
31.94871672Baleares
32.51302047Canarias
33.24054903Cypriots
34.28784478Galicia
34.40721872Extremadura
34.91192490Castilla_Y_Leon
35.07662184Portuguese
35.11704002Spaniards
35.28731358Castilla_La_Mancha

 
Here are all of them, plus an aggregate of all 6 samples:

Code: 
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95

Greece_N_(n=6),0.075,0.018333333,3.27,0.271666667,43.2,0.211666667,0,0.013333333,14.15166667,0,37.99833333,0.788333333

Distance to:Greece_N_(n=6)
18.40171241Sicilian
18.64401922S_Italian_Sicilian
18.97314030Sephardic_Jews
19.01187312Morocco_Jews
21.07059609C_Italian
21.70606949Ashkenazi
22.55991695Tuscan
22.57831599Ashkenazy_Jews
23.46493809TSI30
25.80042221Greek
26.63307066Cypriots
27.06937912O_Italian
28.28656665North_Italian
29.96172535N_Italian
33.34028923Sardinian
34.80904556Andalucia
34.91952347Lebanese
35.02669153Baleares
35.16409371Druze
35.31738174Canarias
35.41767147Murcia
35.80509442Turkish
36.56695712Syrians
36.88730296Jordanians
37.23570266Palestinian

 
E-V13 is likely Indo-European. Pre IE Greek populations were largely EEF's with mostly J and G Y-Dna's.

Minoans, otoh, have large amounts of CHG, imo as a result of direct migration from Maykop-Kura Araxes areas, who brought the language and started the Greek civilisation by mixing with the local EEF's
 
@Jovialis, are those modern populations you compared the neolithic inhabitants of Greece to? I was thinking it would make more sense to compare them to other neolithic populations or Bronze Age populations.
 
Here they are compared to the Eupedia checker. Looks like Maciamo already compiled some of them together, I am guessing from the early part of the Neolithic.

They are close to Minoans, which makes perfect sense, considering that they too are Anatolian_N + CHG:

Distance to:Greece_N_(n=6)
0.50181615Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
4.60799155Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
5.99914600Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
6.06872195Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
10.11111861Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
11.78200263Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
12.09561020EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
12.92535052EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
12.94833655LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
13.97715825Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
14.95983688LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
15.26975287MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
15.59472943Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
15.60007113Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
17.14309539Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
17.75523170Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
17.88362434Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
17.89231733EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
18.45974411Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
18.95663084Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
20.06943828Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
20.26378591Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
20.63983090Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
22.00639421Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
22.59681510Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)

 
Here are the three Early Neolithic samples from Greece, vs other ancient samples. Again, Minoans are number one:

Distance to:Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
4.67690068Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
5.99230340Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
6.13463935Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
10.22518459Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
11.86980623Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
12.11156472EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
12.94813500LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
13.05937977EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
14.06299755Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
15.02037949LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
15.34077899MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
15.57916557Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
15.67691615Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
17.18863869Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
17.76622357Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
17.90113404Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
17.93495749EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
18.43027943Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)
19.06663316Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
20.11910038Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
20.35612930Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
20.76235295Italian_Greeks_(n=2)
22.12733152Imperial-age_Latium_(East_Med_immigrants)_(n=46)
22.74940659Imperial-age_Marche_(n=2)
23.31082367Chalcolithic_Italy_(n=5)

 
This is annoying, ALL of them are female. However, there are 3 more, one from the "Final Neolithic", that I believe were in the Clemente et. al 2021 paper, one of which is G2a2a1a2.


From the supplement of Mathieson et al. 2018:
TFuz72t.png
 
It's totally amazing and surprising how E-V13 is missing in Neolithic Greece/Bulgaria, Serbia (Vinca samples were again mostly G2a and some H).

We were so misslead by modern percentages.

ZREWKTh.png
 
Riverman said:
Also, what's the handy alternative?
Click to expand...

Good question, for me, and this is perhaps due to my old school Dominican Nuns teaching, every time I see Palasgian, I think of Pelagius(Pelagianism)!! a dualistic philosophy that was rampant in parts of the Western_Latin Church in 4th Century which Saint Augustine got into heated debates with. Obviously, the words are not related but they are to my eye sometimes similar. Thus I have to do a double take sometimes.:LOL:
 
Jovialis: My distances using coordinates from your post #589 (thanks for the work).

Distance to:PalermoTrapani_Combined
18.26657603Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3920
20.82958279Greece_N_(n=6)
21.18285155Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3709
21.29334403Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I3708
21.68626985Greece_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave_Neolithic:I2937
21.98648221Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I2318
24.02083471Greece_Peloponnese_Neolithic:I5427

 
Here are the Northern Greece Neolithic samples, from Hofmanova et al. 2016 (they were not from Clemente et al. 2021):

Code: 
Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:Pal7,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35

Northern_Greece_N_(n=3),0,0,3.75,0.06,47.3,0,0,0,13.13333333,0.266666667,33.97,1.516666667
 
Distance to:Northern_Greece_N_(n=3)
21.69984485Sicilian
21.99407875S_Italian_Sicilian
22.29113501Morocco_Jews
22.33997016C_Italian
22.92029741Tuscan
23.20305943Sephardic_Jews
23.34354086TSI30
25.59428647Ashkenazi
26.51733772North_Italian
26.54116174Ashkenazy_Jews
27.73326703Sardinian
27.74656195O_Italian
28.69622914N_Italian
28.71904420Greek
30.86826472Andalucia
31.66319893Murcia
31.78298549Baleares
31.89701397Canarias
32.15359855Cypriots
34.08165831Galicia
34.12505873Extremadura
34.72958969Portuguese
34.75710239Castilla_Y_Leon
35.13000854Spaniards
35.37613367Castilla_La_Mancha

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Early_Neolithic:Rev5
22.66463545Sicilian
22.83912214C_Italian
23.04417497S_Italian_Sicilian
23.24397126Tuscan
23.26946067Morocco_Jews
23.52799184TSI30
24.40618774Sephardic_Jews
26.23530446Sardinian
26.24034108North_Italian
26.69441889Ashkenazi
27.63428487Ashkenazy_Jews
28.12002134O_Italian
28.53540958N_Italian
29.60986322Greek
29.83672569Andalucia
30.74761779Murcia
30.87141072Canarias
31.00974041Baleares
33.29513778Extremadura
33.32057022Galicia
33.65634561Cypriots
33.81588384Castilla_Y_Leon
33.88759803Portuguese
34.23658862Spaniards
34.41354385Castilla_La_Mancha

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Late_Neolithic:pal7
21.93589296Sicilian
22.27435521S_Italian_Sicilian
22.28050493Morocco_Jews
22.39067663C_Italian
22.93471386Tuscan
23.26163580TSI30
23.45906861Sephardic_Jews
25.86319586Ashkenazi
26.20212968North_Italian
26.84133752Ashkenazy_Jews
27.19634718Sardinian
27.69195732O_Italian
28.40731068N_Italian
29.01122024Greek
30.13253557Andalucia
30.87910135Murcia
31.01443051Canarias
31.15591276Baleares
32.79331792Cypriots
33.38521978Galicia
33.39659414Extremadura
33.95610696Portuguese
34.00768884Castilla_Y_Leon
34.46460358Spaniards
34.64518581Castilla_La_Mancha

Distance to:Northern_Greece_Final_Neolithic:Klei10
20.78053175Sicilian
20.93053750S_Italian_Sicilian
21.60660084Morocco_Jews
21.98194259Sephardic_Jews
22.09761752C_Italian
22.88638460Tuscan
23.54022940TSI30
24.44903679Ashkenazi
25.36214699Ashkenazy_Jews
27.35781972North_Italian
27.67823694O_Italian
27.74897115Greek
29.38070115N_Italian
29.89179821Sardinian
30.12408007Cypriots
32.77802923Andalucia
33.35010345Baleares
33.50804978Murcia
33.93183461Canarias
35.69166289Galicia
35.82889895Extremadura
36.48419521Portuguese
36.58116182Castilla_Y_Leon
36.83000679Spaniards
37.20055645Castilla_La_Mancha

 
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