Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

[Hawk]

There is a lot of gaps still. Anatolia, Balkans, even a lot of places around Europe are undersampled. Too much credit have been given to resolve the IE question.

Nevertheless, finding the major Y-DNA among Etruscans would be interesting. If they really came from Urnfield Culture (since Urnfield was so diverse and included various people), then they were EEF survivors until EIA. Or who knows. Let's see.

 

[noUseForAname]

There is nothing to agree or disagree, anyone who even phantoms connecting the E-V13 spread with Vinca culture spread is either a troll, hopelessly dumb, or he has some other motives.. I do not bother to read verbal diarrhea of noUseForAname.. E-V13 is EBA hg and all of these cultures you mention are irrelevant for E-V13 spread.. Plus they were dominated by the G2a clades and even C-V20, H2 must have been more common there than E-V13..

Again no one said E-V13 spread with Vinca culture, Again you are interpreting my thought wrong and you are concluding something I am supposing and which I am not even concluding myself

Also again, show more sources and dont only list your suppositions or you crap lol, on the other hand show respect to others otherwise you should get banned cause of your behavior :disappointed:

 

[Wanderer]

that's just a legend. Etruscans were an indigenous population of Italy.

Not a legend. Is true. They were not indigenous. Historical accounts say they came from elsewhere. And their script was greek but written from right to left. Also
Their architecture was more similar to anatolian architecture during its time

Plus I believe dna showed they were similar to anatolians

 

[binx]

The truth is we do not really know precisely the veracity of the legend.
So far we have no reason to believe the legend given Y-DNA and Autosomal data from Etruscans. But this is largely due to the fact that we are in total darkness regarding Anatolian/Troy/Ilion DNA from the period, for any meaningful comparison.

So naturally using Occam's razor such theories should not be taken at face value as true.

Nevertheless, the opposite is also true, we can not outright say it is just a legend. For we do not know if* such a migration indeed occurred, what was the magnitude of it? A few dozen members of the royal families from Troy could have indeed emigrated to Etruria. Then their Y-DNA and Autosomal input could have melted among the locals.

As a final side-note, I highly doubt the Etruscan language and culture had anything to do with the culture in Ilion, given it was non-IE local based on modern consensus. Furthermore, I do not see how a dozen of individuals would have been able to bring their culture and language to the area.Nevertheless I acknowledge we can not falsify the hypothesis that a minor movement of nobles from Troy could have happened.

I think the upcoming Reich paper regarding Bulgaria will help one way or the other clarify the veracity of both hypotheses. Too bad we have to wait 2021 at minimum.

The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.

Not a legend. Is true. They were not indigenous. Historical accounts say they came from elsewhere. And their script was greek but written from right to left. Also
Their architecture was more similar to anatolian architecture during its time

Plus I believe dna showed they were similar to anatolians

The DNA proved the opposite so much that Etruscans were similar to the Latins. Historical accounts supported everything and the opposite of everything, even that they were indigenous. And no scholar takes these historical accounts seriously anymore. The similarity of the architecture was due to the Orientalizing period and the contact with the Greeks. If you still live in 1800, it's not my fault.

 

[kingjohn]

The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.





The DNA proved the opposite so much that Etruscans were similar to the Latins. Historical accounts supported everything and the opposite of everything, even that they were indigenous. And no scholar takes these historical accounts seriously anymore. The similarity of the architecture was due to the Orientalizing period and the contact with the Greeks. If you still live in 1800, it's not my fault.

he might be a troll....

 

[binx]

he might be a troll....

yes, likely so

 

[Archetype0ne]

So far we have no reason to believe the legend given Y-DNA and Autosomal data from Etruscans. But this is largely due to the fact that we are in total darkness regarding Anatolian/Troy/Ilion DNA from the period, for any meaningful comparison.

So naturally using Occam's razor such theories should not be taken at face value as true.

Nevertheless, the opposite is also true, we can not outright say it is just a legend. For we do not know if* such a migration indeed occurred, what was the magnitude of it? A few dozen members of the royal families from Troy could have indeed emigrated to Etruria. Then their Y-DNA and Autosomal input could have melted among the locals.

As a final side-note, I highly doubt the Etruscan language and culture had anything to do with the culture in Ilion, given it was non-IE local based on modern consensus. Furthermore, I do not see how a dozen of individuals would have been able to bring their culture and language to the area.Nevertheless I acknowledge we can not falsify the hypothesis that a minor movement of nobles from Troy could have happened.

I think the upcoming Reich paper regarding Bulgaria will help one way or the other clarify the veracity of both hypotheses. Too bad we have to wait 2021 at minimum.

The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.

I am not sure what I did to warrant such response.

Where did I state these things you put in my arguments?
Are you saying there was absolutely ZERO connection to the Aegean 1300 BC between Etruria and Ilion?
Are you saying a kin/ family could not have traveled that route, giving rise to the legend?
See I do not put words in your mouth... But if you indeed are saying anything to that effect... Maybe you are not informed.

If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.

What? Where did I even connect them to modern Albanians. :suspicious:
I re read my message and seriously have no clue where I even implied such a thing.

Sad state of affairs, when people project points of view onto you and get upvoted. I guess this forum for certain has no problem with projection.

PS:

"A 2019 genetic study published in the journal Science analyzed the remains of eleven Iron Age individuals from the areas around Rome, of which four were Etruscan individuals, one buried in Veio Grotta Gramiccia from the Villanovan period (900-800 BC) and three buried in La Mattonara Necropolis near Civitavecchia from the Orientalizing period (700-600 BC).

The only sample of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup J-M12 (J2b-L283), found in an individual dated 700-600 BC, and carried exactly the M314 derived allele also found in a Middle Bronze Age individual from Croatia (1631-1531 calBCE). While the four samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to haplogroups U5a1, H, T2b32, K1a4.^[64] Therefore, Etruscans had also Steppe-related ancestry despite speaking a pre-Indo-European language."


So miss me with your BS.

 

[Dushman]

The question of the origins of the Etruscans was resolved decades ago by scholars and archaeologists, the Eastern theory was a fairy tale. If you are not informed it is not my fault. If you really think that the Etruscans had some kinship with the modern Albanians you are just kidding yourself.


The DNA proved the opposite so much that Etruscans were similar to the Latins. Historical accounts supported everything and the opposite of everything, even that they were indigenous. And no scholar takes these historical accounts seriously anymore. The similarity of the architecture was due to the Orientalizing period and the contact with the Greeks. If you still live in 1800, it's not my fault.

Relax and leave your Albanophonia and mind reading skills out of this topic. Nobody here said anything that about Etruscans being Albanians.

Yes, we all know for some time now that Etruscans are similar to Latins and honestly I don’t know ever doubted that. Neighbours tend to be similar everywhere in the world no matter the language they speak.

But some ydna and autosomal test don’t disprove that a ruling minority couldn’t have come from Anatolia or elsewhere.

Personally I don’t really care but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. That region was a cultural center when Italy and the entire Europe was divided between tribes.

Similarly the Mycenaean had very little Steppe but nobody here is saying that the Hellenic and Indo-European languages were spread from Greece just because that early Greek was autosomally “local”.

 

[noUseForAname]

............

 

[LeoJ]

Can u pack your shit, and do not mention the name of Albanians at all. Most of Albanians i know, the reasonable ones give reasonable explanation of the spread of E-V13, unlike some Balkan Slavs who insecure of their ancestry attack Albanians, using some gaps in historical timefrimes they fantasize about various shitty theories. I have seen Romanians cucking to them quite frequently against Albanians.

So, you saw nothing. I'm not siding any stupid 'faction' here, but I saw many albanians suffering from that frustration. Let moderator Angela say if not so !

 

[LeoJ]

Can you stick to the topic please? Albanians don’t need reminders from a confused nation split between a Latin or Dacian origin when in fact you’re more Slavic than many actual Slavs in the Balkans.

I don't even care about that. I don't care about nothing here, only the scientific facts. But I saw many 'arse impaled' albanians jumping to the others throat continuously. Again, let moderator Angela say how many times she (or he) gave warnings to you, albanians, for exceeding the forum rules. So, shut up, and maintain the scientific compass, without forcing the explanations to favour own history.

 

[LeoJ]

The only sample of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup J-M12 (J2b-L283), found in an individual dated 700-600 BC, and carried exactly the M314 derived allele also found in a Middle Bronze Age individual from Croatia (1631-1531 calBCE). While the four samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to haplogroups U5a1, H, T2b32, K1a4.^[64] Therefore, Etruscans had also Steppe-related ancestry despite speaking a pre-Indo-European language."

Can you, albanians, stop the ongoing mental spam of anything related with your ancestry ? I saw a continuous 'auto-historical elevations' of every single fact described here in such manner that is so annoying that I must stop reading anything if I see the red albanian flag until situation will turn around. Not in vain in the commie era Albania, with Romania and Bulgaria were (and unfortunately still are !) the last mohicans of the Europe.

 

[LeoJ]

Relax and leave your Albanophonia and mind reading skills out of this topic.
That region was a cultural center when Italy and the entire Europe was divided between tribes.

So you, relax and leave your understandable immature Albanophilia.
Which is that (super)region you're referring when Italy was full of tribes ? The Himalayan Shangri-La ?

 

[Hawk]

So, you saw nothing. I'm not siding any stupid 'faction' here, but I saw many albanians suffering from that frustration. Let moderator Angela say if not so !

I swear that you guys are so dishonest with yourselves and with others that it amazes me. Go cuck to Balkan Slavs, and plot a hypothesis that we come from Moldova or North Caucasus.

 

[MOESAN]

Could it not be possible that everyone of us would speak for him(her)self without believing he(she) is invested by some patriotic collective duty, whatever his(her) personal feelings? And without these too worn terms like 'shitty', 'nazi', 'fascist', '...-supremacist', 'leftist', 'dumb', 'idiot'... We can disagree, but what gain find the threads with this kind of insults or anathems?

 

[Dushman]

I don't even care about that. I don't care about nothing here, only the scientific facts. But I saw many 'arse impaled' albanians jumping to the others throat continuously. Again, let moderator Angela say how many times she (or he) gave warnings to you, albanians, for exceeding the forum rules. So, shut up, and maintain the scientific compass, without forcing the explanations to favour own history.

You keep repeating how we Albanians keep jumping on everyone’s throats when we’re discussing Etruscans. Not to prolong this, Ok, noted, apologies if we attacked you. Cheers.

And as for the region I was referring to, it’s obviously Anatolia.

Could it not be possible that everyone of us would speak for him(her)self without believing he(she) is invested by some patriotic collective duty, whatever his(her) personal feelings? And without these too worn terms like 'shitty', 'nazi', 'fascist', '...-supremacist', 'leftist', 'dumb', 'idiot'... We can disagree, but what gain find the threads with this kind of insults or anathems?

Moesan, my friend, this is the result of both our human nature and Balkan nature together.

From the simply human side, people tend to dislike and misunderstand everything someone says if he/she is from a nation they don’t like.

From the Balkan side, our own agendas prevent us from accepting our neighbours’ claims as it will affect our own cultural/territorial claims. I don’t know why many Romanians hate us when we don’t even share borders, I guess it’s their common Slavic heritage belonging to a majority of I2a + R1a and old Orthodox brotherhood ties.

We Albanians are not any better in this regard, but we’ve been simply lucky to belong mostly to Proto-Balkan haplogroups and that goes in accordance to our own territorial claims.

 

[LeoJ]

I swear that you guys are so dishonest with yourselves and with others that it amazes me. Go cuck to Balkan Slavs, and plot a hypothesis that we come from Moldova or North Caucasus.

Did I spoke to deaf ears, or on some juvenile mental, pal ? I don't care about finding 'fine origins' and/or praising this or that fabricating fascination history ancestry......like many of you here. I don't care if your mother, or my mother, was a whore, I care to know all about my unknown mother line(age). All what I'm for is to maintain a scientific logical perspective, to talk about all sorts of possibilities and to acquire the news in that domain. I'm clear enough ? Because enough it's enough.

 

[LeoJ]

Could it not be possible that everyone of us would speak for him(her)self without believing he(she) is invested by some patriotic collective duty, whatever his(her) personal feelings? And without these too worn terms like 'shitty', 'nazi', 'fascist', '...-supremacist', 'leftist', 'dumb', 'idiot'... We can disagree, but what gain find the threads with this kind of insults or anathems?

Absolutely agree.

 

[LeoJ]

From the Balkan side, our own agendas prevent us from accepting our neighbours’ claims as it will affect our own cultural/territorial claims. I don’t know why many Romanians hate us when we don’t even share borders, I guess it’s their common Slavic heritage belonging to a majority of I2a + R1a and old Orthodox brotherhood ties.
We Albanians are not any better in this regard, but we’ve been simply lucky to belong mostly to Proto-Balkan haplogroups and that goes in accordance to our own territorial claims.

I don't give a shit on someone's territorial claims, nor even on ours, you medieval pal ! Hey, it's now the XXI century, long after the bread 'was shared' in the XVII'th, XVIII'th or XIX'th. Please fix your's 'time-clock' and stay calm. You have enough lands, we have enough lands. Use your energy to take Albania out of the last places in Europe. And Romania too. And Moldova too. And all others, too. Capito ? All peoples have enough and is no need to die many (millions)more for some retarded point of view.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Did you take your pills mate?
Stop vomiting all over the forum.
And for the last time, keep your hatred towards Albanians in your tummy. And Albanians out of your filthy mouth.