Palasgians, pre Ancient Greeks...would their DNA be E-V13?

[noUseForAname]

Ye, ye, I was just trying to be precise. Phoenicia, Cyprus or Crete is my guess.



My problem with that theory is that for a mutation into E-V13 to happen in Balkans, there has to be a parent clade present (which is E-M78). If there was 100 males with E-M78 in Balkans, and one of them mutated into E-V13, then we'd have a starting ratio of 100:1 in favor of E-M78. Then why do we now have a totaly different ratio? There is 10x less E-M78 in Balkans, which means that E-V13 "prospered" thousand times better then E-M78. What could be explanation for that?

It's either that E-M78 colony on Balkans was extremely small, so that first E-V13 'mutant' could have disturbed the ratio at the very beginning of it's existence, or that E-V13 came into Balkans as an already formed subclade sometime later. This other hypothesis seems more probable for me.

You should ask Maciamo for this, although you are welcome to give personal opinions i would recommend to instead give scientific sources first before giving any opinions
Hopefully Maciamo would read this and will explain...so far this is what i have found and said from him regarding E-V13...to argue that E-V13 didn't came sometime later as you mention....

Originally Posted by Cobol19
I think E1b1b was probably hanging out in West Asia for a while until the movement happened to Europe, and among them there was likely J2 men as well.

Maciamo
That was what I thought before too. But that does not explain why E1b1b has a higher frequency than J2 in Western Iberia or the Southern Balkans. J2 is far more common than E1b1b in West Asia (ratio of almost 3:1). It also fails to explain why there is so little E-V13 in West Asia and the Levant. Furthermore, if Neolithic farmers and herders were only G2a, then how did E1b1b reach Iberia at all from the Middle East ?

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

 

[noUseForAname]

the only one that is logical

Yes i think so too, E-M78 (maybe even very small groups) came directly to (South East balkans) 9,000 years ago and from there mutated and formed E-V13, then from there since that time spread out through Europe slowly....on the other side E-M78 which is at the very north east Africa is 18.000 years ago. This i guess makes pretty much sense and it is also argued at europedia....

E-V13 is one of the major markers of the Neolithic diffusion of farming from the Balkans to central, eastern and western Europe. Like all the other subclades of E-M78, E-V13 originated in north-east Africa toward the end of the last Ice Age.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

 

[Angela]

sensible points
I post this abstract only to show there could have been (THERE HAVE BEEN) more than a Neolithical wave into Europe from Anatolia and maybe directly from Near-Eastern -
that said, it seems to me that mt-HGs are finally less "deletere" than the Y-HGs - these last ones vary certainly less rapidly in today satured and "softened" Europe than in ancient times where they were linked to a male elite, mostly in the metals times of warlike tribes but even in Neolithical times -

I don't doubt that's true, but whether or not there were slight differences in "phenotype", these early Neolithic farmers were all extremely similar in terms of overall genetics.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/images/ncomms6257-f2.jpg

Ed: Otzi and Gok4 are very close to them indeed, even though Gok4 is more admixed, and if the Portalon Iberian farmer and the Iberian Cardial farmers were included, I have no doubt they would show up there as well.

 

[Ike]

You should ask Maciamo for this, although you are welcome to give personal opinions i would recommend to instead give scientific sources first before giving any opinions
Hopefully Maciamo would read this and will explain...so far this is what i have found and said from him regarding E-V13...to argue that E-V13 didn't came sometime later as you mention.....

There are no scientific sources.Only one ancient E-V13 we have is in Spain, which is very far away and long ago from Pelasgians. That's why (at the moment) no one can give you anything except mathematical estimate, which may not even be true.

I'm more inclined to think according to LeBrok's hypothesis, that founder effect is much more important in Hg dynamics than we give it credit.

 

[noUseForAname]

i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

I dont see how religion would have any effect on this....Just during the Otoman empire and when Gjergj Kastrioti skanderbeg died January 17, 1468, it was the same religion in those areas....In addition if you have seen the table above how come then Peleponnese area have 47 % of E-V13 and Kosovo 47.5%?....My opinion is that This has nothing to do with religion...

 

[Maleth]

i prefer to check the religion and the birth rate,
some religion have big birth ratio, and if is 2/1 then in 3 generations is 8/1

And what religion is E_V13? :grin:. With the same measuring stick the most successful multiplication in Europe to date is R1b. What religion does R1b have? and forget national percentages but go in population numbers were R1b is common. UK = 64 million, Spain = 47 Million, Germany 84 Million compared to Kosovo 1 million, Greece 11 million and Albania 3 million were E-V13 is all the more common.

Religions do not come labeled with a particular hapolgroup as we all very well know :wink:

 

[kamani]

So far the most sensible explanation of its origin is that it is the Iberian Neolithic Farmers that made it to the Balkans and Italy, IMO. If we want to go even further it comes from North-West Africa. Another key support to this is that the oldest subclades of E-M123 are found actually in Portugal (Spain Neighborhood...). The accompanying mtdna was H (most of it also comes from Spain).

 

[Maleth]

So far the most sensible explanation of its origin is that it is the Iberian Neolithic Farmers that made it to the Balkans and Italy, IMO. If we want to go even further it comes from North-West Africa. Another key support to this is that the oldest subclades of E-M123 are found actually in Portugal (Spain Neighborhood...). The accompanying mtdna was H (most of it also comes from Spain).

Kamani, at present ancient dna sampling is only possible north to the alps so we are not going to have much data about ancient dna south of the alps until we have more sophisticated tools to make it possible. The current speriodic data was probably available to special circumstances to were they were found and preserved, but its very very minimal compared to studies that are ongoing to the north of the Alps. At least that what I was told by some professor in the field. There will be a time when things will be more clear. (at least I was told)

 

[Ike]

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

You just assumed that 10.000 years ago E-V13 mixed with something that is there now...

 

[noUseForAname]

You just assumed that 10.000 years ago E-V13 mixed with something that is there now...

That is argued by Maciamo the creator of this website (not by me)...read more about E-V13 from Maciamo thread....

FYI..... Y dna cannot be mixed, cannot change, it might mutate through time with thousands of years but not changed through others, it is from male.
I dont understand what you mean when saying "it mixed with something else"

 

[noUseForAname]

Where do you keep digging up this nonsense?
No offense to you, but this is yet more nonsense from an somebody who has no understanding of linguistics and who just wishes to magically "prove" the 'ancientness' of Albanian (ignorant of the fact that the internal history of Albanian tells us very clearly that the language, 2000 years ago, would have been very different), without caring what's actually written down in the Lemnos inscription, namely an entirely different language.

The Lemnos inscription isn't written in some wild-eyed, cranky "Pelasgo-Illyrian", but in a language closely related with Etruscan.


Why do you link to something in the commentaries of wikipedia, while the Wikipedia article itself is a lot better written (ironically enough) and shows us the actual situation:



In contrast, the Illyrians were speakers of Indo-European languages.

Would you be happier if I claim that Albanian is descended from Martian? It would make just as much sense as this "Pelasgo-Illyrian" fantasy.

According to recent and older scientific research Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...
Sources....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm


You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

 

[Sile]

According to recent and older scientific research Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...
Sources....
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htm
View attachment 6970

You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)

 

[Skerdilaidas]

the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)

Judging by that graph, Albanian and Greek went their separate ways about 5000 years ago, which most likely is correct. But, that tree is not correct on the relationships of Greek and Armenian. There is a new theory/hypothesis regarding Greek, Armenian, Phrygian, and Albanian. All four languages are grouped under the Balkan branch of Indo-European languages, and Armenian-Phrygian-Greek creates/form the Eastern branch, while Albanian is alone on the Western branch (the only Paleo-Balkan survivor). Anyways, check it out for yourself:

 

[noUseForAname]

the nytimes link states italian 800 years ago...which is correct.
it states modern albanian at 1000 years ago ( but split from Greek roughly 3500 years before that)

It is clearly showing that Greek and Albanian were already separate and old 5,000 years ago. there are no splits here....

It also shows on the map that the Albanian speaking regions were in the area of todays Albania, Kosovo, west Montenegro, south Serbia, the whole of todays Macedonia, south west Bulgaria and even the very south of Italy.

 

[LeBrok]

It is clearly showing that Greek and Albanian were already separate and old 5,000 years ago. there are no splits here....

Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.

Otherwise it is just an educated guess.

 

[Taranis]

According to recent and older scientific research Albanian and Greek Languages are 5,000 years OLD, What comments you have about this?...please share any scientific papers and not just your thoughts and being ironical and saying this is nonsense...

It is nonsense. Modern Albanian has (in roughly chronological order) Greek, Latin, East Germanic, Slavic and Turkish loanwords. Proto-Indo-European is conventionally dated to circa 3500 BC, yes, but by no means does that mean that, for example, Greek or Albanian (in their modern forms) are that old, because they clearly aren't.

For Greek, we do have the attestation of Mycenaean Greek (from the Bronze Age), which is very different from modern Greek, and even quite different from the classical Greek of, say, one Homer.

Within Indo-European, Greek and Albanian are indeed not closely related and as far as their phonetical evolution goes, they have little commonalities: Greek is a Centum language (the "palato-velar" sounds of PIE are merged with the "plain" velars), while Albanian is a Satem language (the "palato-velars" are expressed as fricatives - in the case of Albanian mainly *θ and *ð). Further, Albanian has Proto-Indo-European *o shifted to *a (a commonality it has with Germanic and Balto-Slavic). In contrast, Greek has shifted word-initial *s- to *h- (a commonality it has with Armenian and the Iranic languages).

About loanwords in Albanian, I'd like to pick Latin ones for a demonstration, since they make up a large part of the Albanian vocabulary:

mik (friend - 'amicus')
qen (dog - 'canis')
qytet (town/city - 'civitas')
peshk (fish - 'pisces')
pulë ('chicken' - pullus)
shok (friend - 'socius')

If Albanian borrowed all these words from Latin, and they are subject to subsequent phonetic evolution, by what logic is Albanian "5000 years old" if the language was a very different one 2000 years ago?

You also mentioned that there is nothing related with ancient Greeks and Albanians, then how come their dna regarding E-V13 is so similar?, have you looked at how for example Peloponnese and south Greece and north Greece are with over 40/% E-V13 and Kosovo has 47.5%?....and Kosovo Albanians from Macedonia have 45% (check my table regarding ethnic E-V13)....what comments you have about this?....

About E-V13, as you know it has been found in one of the Neolithic sites from Spain, suggesting it was once widespread in Europe in the Neolithic, considerably older than PIE.

 

[Skerdilaidas]

Taranis, Albanian has the proto-Albanian as ancestor which most definitely was a paleo-Balkan language; could be Illyrian (most likely), or some other language that indeed was never recorded or mentioned during antiquity. Same scenario for the Greek language, or in fact for all Indo-European languages, and in time they all go back to PIE, so the 5000 year mark is somewhat correct for each family. Languages adapt, borrow, and evolve, so it's senseless talking about how different Albanian was 2000 years ago, and this goes for all languages. To be honest I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make with such example, and also the loans?


E-V13 was found in Spain, and it seems that it probably got there via Balkan:

The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes

 

[Taranis]

Taranis, Albanian has the proto-Albanian as ancestor which most definitely was a paleo-Balkan language; could be Illyrian (most likely), or some other language that indeed was never recorded or mentioned during antiquity.

I won't disagree with you here that Albanian was - likely - descended from one of the Paleo-Balkan languages (the situation is too ambiguous to tell for certain).

Same scenario for the Greek language, or in fact for all Indo-European languages, and in time they all go back to PIE, so the 5000 year mark is somewhat correct for each family. Languages adapt, borrow, and evolve, so it's senseless talking about how different Albanian was 2000 years ago, and this goes for all languages.

Exactly. Greek, however, is a special case in so far as it has one of the longest written histories of any Indo-European languages, thanks to Mycenaean Greek (written in Linear B, from circa 1500 BC) - even though there is that 'dark age' between the Linear B becoming extinct (during the Bronze Age collapse), and the Greeks adopting the alphabet from the Phoenicians (circa 800s BC).

To be honest I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make with such example, and also the loans?

I was mainly pointing this out as a counter-example for noUseForAname's earlier posts, in particular the absurd claim that it would be possible to 'translate' Lemnian (a non-Indo-European, Tyrsenian language, closely related with Etruscan) using cherrypicked modern Albanian:

View attachment 6832
View attachment 6833
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View attachment 6835
View attachment 6836

This is what i have found so far...

This stele has been discovered in the island of Lemno and, in general terms, it comes considered much difficult and little every convincing attempt to comprise the content of that writing. And it is for that reason very little attempts have been made to seriously engage and melt that enigma. We begin showing this Stele of Lemno, attributed to 6th century BCE (but from some characterized studious is older):
But, observing with attention the registration, since the first words, we can see that it is recorded in the pelasgo-illyrian language, like in the rest of the euro-Mediterranean territories, and it is therefore obvious that we can decipher it only through the Albanian language, this is the translation

This entire bustrophedic registration, where the letters TH and H can be read continuously, in order to represent sighs and sobs, as we would today make AH and OH contains tormenting complains of a funeral, obviously for the dead person that had been also a great hero. We now rewrite our the Stele in a modified shape adapting it to the modern era:

MOURNING, we are in full mourning,
anguish, ill luck all over,
women covered with black veils.
Grief you have given to the kinship, oh kinsman!
He belongs to our stock, Ah! , Oh!
He was torn away from us, what misfortune.
But in order which guilt, this disaster?
Gelid is his golden throne, Ah!
Of his fame we were proud, Oh!
Grief, grief in the whole world,
tearing him away, we are beheaded!
This grief struck us suddently, ah!
Alas, who knows for what fault? Oh!

Our kinsman he was,
Why ever did he struck us with such grief?
In Grief and despair, ah!
tears choke us, Oh!
He, who kept up our stock,
for what fault, now does he extinguish it?
Ah! Oh!

Oh! precious he was,
knife wounds, oh misfortune,
he suffered so much!
In Silence, never uttering an insult!
Ah! Oh!
You, kinsman, you have beheaded us, Oh!
You, great affliction you have given us, Ah! Oh!


http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/pelasgian_etruscan_english.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lemnian_language

Because by no means, Albanian has anything to do with the pre-Greek languages of the Aegean region.

 

[Ike]

That is argued by Maciamo the creator of this website (not by me)...read more about E-V13 from Maciamo thread....

FYI..... Y dna cannot be mixed, cannot change, it might mutate through time with thousands of years but not changed through others, it is from male.
I dont understand what you mean when saying "it mixed with something else"

Then why do you quote text that talks about mixing if you don't understand what they say...

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I (xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

 

[noUseForAname]

Clearly you don't read this chart right. Have a closer look.

Otherwise it is just an educated guess.

I see here Albanian and Hellenic separate at 1,000 BC which is 3,000 years, the other source shows 5,000 years ago Albanian and Greek separate...
I don't understand what are you referring too....