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Thread: Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

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    Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

    Thanks to Dienekes for posting the study. Christine Gamba et al:

    Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory:

    This is the link to the study:
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...comms6257.html

    This is the direct link to the Dienekes thread:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/10...itants-of.html

    Abstract:

    The Great Hungarian Plain was a crossroads of cultural transformations that have shaped European prehistory. Here we analyse a 5,000-year transect of human genomes, sampled from petrous bones giving consistently excellent endogenous DNA yields, from 13 Hungarian Neolithic, Copper, Bronze and Iron Age burials including two to high (~22 × ) and seven to ~1 × coverage, to investigate the impact of these on Europe’s genetic landscape. These data suggest genomic shifts with the advent of the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages, with interleaved periods of genome stability. The earliest Neolithic context genome shows a European hunter-gatherer genetic signature and a restricted ancestral population size, suggesting direct contact between cultures after the arrival of the first farmers into Europe. The latest, Iron Age, sample reveals an eastern genomic influence concordant with introduced Steppe burial rites. We observe transition towards lighter pigmentation and surprisingly, no Neolithic presence of lactase persistence.

    Y DNA: ( A total surprise for me...)
    Individual KO1, E. Neol Körös (5,650–5,780 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a
    Individual NE5, M. Neol. Late ALP (4,990–5,210 BC) = Y-Haplogroup C6
    Individual NE6, M. Neol. LBK Culture (4,950–5,300 BC) = Y-Haplogroup C6
    Individual NE7, L. Neol. Lengyel Culture (4,360–4,490 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a
    Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1
    Individual IR1, Iron Age, Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture (830–980 BC) = Y-Haplogroup N

    Still no R1b anywhere.

    J2a has finally made an appearance, and it's in a Bronze Age context.

    First comment on Dienekes:
    The oldest neolithic sample KO1 is a dark haired blue eyed man with I2a and "Armenian" mDNA R3.

    I'm not going to say another word until I read the entire paper twice! However, that "Armenian" comment is interesting in light of the tweets from Razib Khan (thanks to him) about the new Lazaridis paper saying that Yamnaya can be modeled as 50% Karelian / 50% "Armenian".


    Last edited by LeBrok; 27-10-14 at 19:01. Reason: inserting video


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    The first ancient sample to have fair hair and fair eyes is Neolithic 7:
    Individual NE7, L. Neol. Lengyel Culture (4,360–4,490 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a

    Following is the PCA plot. The Neolithic samples and Sardinia form a sort of Venn Diagram. Neolithic 7 is right in the intersection autosomally if I'm reading it correctly...not too far from Otzi, actually, who is just to the southwest of Neolithic 7, and just outside the Sardinia group.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...ms6257_F2.html

    Lactase persistence doesn't show up until the Bronze and Iron Age samples. Amazing.

    KO1 plots all the way north with La Brana. Then KO2 plots all the way south. The two groups certainly mingled pretty quick in this part of the world, yes?

    Could a moderator please post the diagram itself? I have no more room.

    I have to check all of this again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    KO1 plots all the way north with La Brana. Then KO2 plots all the way south. The two groups certainly mingled pretty quick in this part of the world, yes?
    I suggest KO2 was replacement. New population. The next samples are north of it, which might be caused by bigger incoming KO2-ish population assimilating really small proportion of KO1-ish type hunters in their ranks. Because of "9 to 1"-ish or similar proportions NE circles went just slightly up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The first ancient sample to have fair hair and fair eyes is Neolithic 7:
    Individual NE7, L. Neol. Lengyel Culture (4,360–4,490 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a

    Following is the PCA plot. The Neolithic samples and Sardinia form a sort of Venn Diagram. Neolithic 7 is right in the intersection autosomally if I'm reading it correctly...not too far from Otzi, actually, who is just to the southwest of Neolithic 7, and just outside the Sardinia group.
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...ms6257_F2.html

    Lactase persistence doesn't show up until the Bronze and Iron Age samples. Amazing.

    KO1 plots all the way north with La Brana. Then KO2 plots all the way south. The two groups certainly mingled pretty quick in this part of the world, yes?

    Could a moderator please post the diagram itself? I have no more room.

    I have to check all of this again.
    Ed.Since the ancient samples are "projected" onto the modern ones their placement isn't exact. (although it can give us a general idea) So, I don't think we should get too excited by the fact that the Bronze Age samples seem to plot with the French. Interestingly, though, isn't that about where the one decent "Thracian" sample plotted as well?

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    OK I need to ask a question here. I know I have said before I feel two steps behind in this area, but I thought I might have been playing myself a little short, now I`m not so sure. Bronze Age in this area, should be R1.. something...no?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    The Y-DNA is unfortunately missing deep subclade testing. It would be helpful for all of the samples, and maybe would clarify why all of the Neolithic samples look Mesolithic on the Y line. The Iron Age N would also be interesting to know more about.

    I'm guessing that the Mesolithic-looking I2a and C6 are just coincidences and that if we had more local samples we'd be seeing more G2a and the like. Well, for every sample but KO1, which seems to be a genuine assimilated hunter-gatherer.

    As a minor nitpick, the statement by Dienekes that "two other ones were I2a which is what Loschbour and Swedish hunter-gatherers had" and the statement in the paper that KO1's "Y-chromosome lineage, I2a, matches the only haplogroup reported to date in Mesolithic Central and Northern Europeans" aren't quite correct. Motala 2 was I2 but not I2a, and probably was I2c. Several others may have been something other than I2a, because their calls weren't clear. Also, if we count Pitted Ware as Mesolithic (since they were hunter-gatherers), then we can also add Ajvide 70, which wasn't Haplogroup I at all. I went into more details here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    OK I need to ask a question here. I know I have said before I feel two steps behind in this area, but I thought I might have been playing myself a little short, now I`m not so sure. Bronze Age in this area, should be R1.. something...no?
    I'm surprised too, but these are such small sample sizes.

    The Neolithic period results are surprising too. Maybe, as has been suggested, it's just because it's a small sample, and at this period Hungary was pretty mixed in terms of yDna.

    We aren't getting much resolution either, so who knows what particular flavor of I2a we have at each time period.

    We do know that come clades of I2a were incorporated into Neolithic communities and then expanded. Maybe that's what happened here? They're certainly "Neolithic" in autosomal terms.

    I'm still plowing through the paper. Life is getting in the way. :)

    I see Dienekes has made some comments. He's certainly right about the pigmentation. Pigmentation changes were taking place before the Indo-Europeans ever showed up, I think, and it was happening among people very much like the Sardinians and Otzi.

    Why does lactase persistence appear so late in history? Does anyone have any ideas? It must have something to do with pastoralism, yes?( i.e. milk consumption instead of just processed milk products like cheese?) Could that also have speeded up the pigmentation changes? If Bronze Age pastoralists got the light pigmentation alleles from the Neolithic farmers, and their diet was very dairy based, the selection for both would occur, perhaps, given that you need Vitamin D to absorb calcium?
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/newswe...our-health.htm

    Just thinking out loud, folks...

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is fascinating, thanks for posting Angela, and kudos to Hungarian archeologist. Some of these samples are rather surprising. Lot of farmers with hg C and lack of hg G or E!

    Individual KO1, E. Neol Körös (5,650–5,780 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a
    Individual KO2, E. Neol Körös (5,640 BC) = Y-Haplogroup ?

    This is very interesting. Times when Hunter Gatherers met first farmers in Hungary. KO1 plots as extreme HG and KO2 as extreme farmer. These two might reset definitions of EEF and WHG. KO1 bones were found in primitive and short lived agricultural village of very early Neolithic in Hungary. I wonder if he was trying his luck in farming or was he a slave or sacrifice to gods done by farmers? Has dark hair and blue eyes. Typical HG look of this period.
    KO2 has brown hair and brown eyes.

    Mid Neolithic samples:
    Individual NE5, M. Neol. Late ALP (4,990–5,210 BC) = Y-Haplogroup C6
    Individual NE6, M. Neol. LBK Culture (4,950–5,300 BC) = Y-Haplogroup C6
    Individual NE7, L. Neol. Lengyel Culture (4,360–4,490 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a

    Wow. Where are the Gs and Es? C6 is still alive and I2a is farming!
    The biggest surprise is to find only and very Hunter-Gatherer Y hg I2a and C6 in Neolithic farmers from Hungary! Did HG in Hungary suddenly turned farmers mid Neolithic?
    Not really, PCA plot tells very different story. They plot exactly with today's Sardinian pop., the most EEF of all europeans. If not HG haplogroups we wouldn't even know that they had some HG heritage looking at autosomal DNA.
    They plot North from older KO2, this might indicate some HG admixture happening with time, but not more than in modern Sardinians. Haplogroups are surprising but autosomally they are typical EEF farmers from Neolithic. NE7 looks very blond though. More blond than the rest of samples from bronze and iron age. Interesting.

    Copper Age
    Individual CO1, L. Neol. Lengyel Culture (2,810 BC) = Y-Haplogroup ?
    Plots exactly like the rest of Neolithic farmers. Copper age doesn't seem to bring any population change, at least in Hungary.

    Bronze Age
    Individual BR1, (2,080 BC) = Y-Haplogroup ?
    Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1

    Too bad that we have 3 thousand year gap from last neolithic Yhg to BR2 individual. Well at least we can say that J2 existed in central Europe way before Romans could introduce it around their empire from Near East, as some stubbornly insisted. I think it will show up in copper age first (Varna and Cucuteni) but we can't learn this from this study. I still can be right, lol.

    On the graph we can see a big shift in plotting. Not pure EEF anymore but with admixtures pulling them towards East Europeans and West Asians (ANE?). I would speculate that this is due to Indo-European invasions which started around 2,500 BC. They are also pulled up on a chart toward, I presume, WHG admixture.

    Iron Age
    Individual IR1, Iron Age, Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture (830–980 BC) = Y-Haplogroup N
    Weird, plots somewhere between Russians and Caucasus and has hg N. Perhaps he is the true source of Hungarian language? He has blond hair and brown eyes.
    Does "Arm" indicate Armeniens?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm surprised too, but these are such small sample sizes.

    The Neolithic period results are surprising too. Maybe, as has been suggested, it's just because it's a small sample, and at this period Hungary was pretty mixed in terms of yDna.
    Right, got it now. Thanks Angela..:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The first ancient sample to have fair hair and fair eyes is Neolithic 7:
    Individual NE7, L. Neol. Lengyel Culture (4,360–4,490 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a
    Blonde hair, Blue eyes, and Light skin! Preceding Indo-Europeans...


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It is fascinating, thanks for posting Angela, and kudos to Hungarian archeologist. Some of these samples are rather surprising. Lot of farmers with hg C and lack of hg G or E!

    Individual KO1, E. Neol Körös (5,650–5,780 BC) = Y-Haplogroup I2a
    Individual KO2, E. Neol Körös (5,640 BC) = Y-Haplogroup ?

    This is very interesting. Times when Hunter Gatherers met first farmers in Hungary. KO1 plots as extreme HG and KO2 as extreme farmer. These two might reset definitions of EEF and WHG. KO1 bones were found in primitive and short lived agricultural village of very early Neolithic in Hungary. I wonder if he was trying his luck in farming or was he a slave or sacrifice to gods done by farmers? Has dark hair and blue eyes. Typical HG look of this period.
    KO2 has brown hair and brown eyes.
    It will be impossible to infer what KO1 hunter gatherer was doing in agricultural village.
    The earliest agricultural communities belong to the Körös culture (Criş in Romania),
    which is part of the Balkan Early Neolithic complex, the “First Temperate
    Neolithic”10–12. Early Neolithic burials across eastern Europe are characterized by a
    lack of cemeteries, in contrast to those of later Neolithic periods. Furthermore, the
    majority of burials are found inside what seem to be refuse pits. In most cases it is not
    possible to discern whether the artifacts recovered from these pits were simply
    deposited or discarded into the pit or were rather interred with the person as grave
    goods 44,45. In the specific case of skeletons from Körös culture sites from Hungary
    only 13 of the 184 burials were accompanied by objects or fragments of objects that
    could be identified to belong to a grave assemblage 46


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    It will be impossible to infer what KO1 hunter gatherer was doing in agricultural village.
    Whatever he was doing there, the Neolithic Farmer's daughters must have liked him because his DNA was still there 1000 years later.

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    I'm not surprised by the shift from a Sardinian like population to one that includes some eastern mix by the Bronze Age, and the skin and eye colour results would suggest a dietary influence. And the Y haplotype I2 isn't surprising but the C certainly is - if C haplotype hunter gatherers made the transition to agriculture, why did C later become rare. And I'm surprised there's no R1a in the Bronze or Iron Age samples. I'd agree that maybe the Y haplotypes aren't going to prove to be typical examples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Whatever he was doing there, the Neolithic Farmer's daughters must have liked him because his DNA was still there 1000 years later.
    That's why her father thrown him into the garbage, lol, or whatever was left after he was done with him.

    Seriously, KO1 lived in primitive farming village, which existed only couple of generations. Was it unsuccesful farming experiment by HGs, or more likely these first farmers/pioneers were wiped out by HGs? Wild West style.

    There is a definitive slight shift in later farmers towards HGs. Definitely there was some mixing at the beginning, not much but there was some and it shows on PCA. After this initial mixing there is no change in Neolithic PCA values till Bronze Age. Even this blond farmer NE7 plots like Sardinians. Perhaps there were no more HGs left to mate with? At least in Hungary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I'm not surprised by the shift from a Sardinian like population to one that includes some eastern mix by the Bronze Age, and the skin and eye colour results would suggest a dietary influence. And the Y haplotype I2 isn't surprising but the C certainly is - if C haplotype hunter gatherers made the transition to agriculture, why did C later become rare. And I'm surprised there's no R1a in the Bronze or Iron Age samples. I'd agree that maybe the Y haplotypes aren't going to prove to be typical examples.
    These could be I-M26 haplotypes, or dead branches of I2a, which are not necessarily from the same movement of people as the I2-M423 Dinaric population haplotypes common in Hungary today. If I recall I2a* and I-M26 aren't very common at all in eastern Europe. I did not read the paper yet as I'm still working in the real world... Is there any indication these remains were separate burials from the other farmers of the time? Strange that all the LBK stuff turns up G-P15 or F-M89, then suddenly all this hunter-gatherer YDNA in a group together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's why her father thrown him into the garbage, lol, or whatever was left after he was done with him.

    Seriously, KO1 lived in primitive farming village, which existed only couple of generations. Was it unsuccesful farming experiment by HGs, or more likely these first farmers/pioneers were wiped out by HGs? Wild West style.

    There is a definitive slight shift in later farmers towards HGs. Definitely there was some mixing at the beginning, not much but there was some and it shows on PCA. After this initial mixing there is no change in Neolithic PCA values till Bronze Age. Even this blond farmer NE7 plots like Sardinians. Perhaps there were no more HGs left to mate with? At least in Hungary.
    Its probably a situation similar to that of the R1b hotspot in sub-saharan africa (chad/cameroon). It would only take a few generations of a small group of HG's autosomal traits to be diluted out of existence in a much larger population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's why her father thrown him into the garbage, lol, or whatever was left after he was done with him.

    Seriously, KO1 lived in primitive farming village, which existed only couple of generations. Was it unsuccesful farming experiment by HGs, or more likely these first farmers/pioneers were wiped out by HGs? Wild West style.

    There is a definitive slight shift in later farmers towards HGs. Definitely there was some mixing at the beginning, not much but there was some and it shows on PCA. After this initial mixing there is no change in Neolithic PCA values till Bronze Age. Even this blond farmer NE7 plots like Sardinians. Perhaps there were no more HGs left to mate with? At least in Hungary.

    Most of them are still south of Otzi though, and the Sardinians, so slightly less WHG even after whatever mixing went on. Until we get the precise figures from the new Lazaridis paper and/or the right ancient samples, we won't know how much of the WHG in modern Europeans is from the groups who were in Europe proper when the farmers arrived, and how much might have been picked up by Yamnaya or come down from the far north east, yes?

    If the abstract from the new Sardinia paper is correct, there was very little Bronze Age movement into Sardinia, so their WHG is largely from the first "original" admixture. (Some must have come along with U-152.) I don't think there were any roving bands of fisher hunters left in southern Europe. I'm not sure about Central Europe. Maybe not. I bet there were some left in the far northeast, and maybe Ireland and Scotland?

    Personally, in terms of Sardinia, I find it interesting how most Tuscans just look like eastern shifted Sardinians. Can the divergence really have been 10,000 years ago as one of the proposed models would have it? Isn't it more likely that until 2500 BC or even later all of southern Europe and most of Central Europe at least was Sardinian like? Still, of course, that means they've largely been their own breeding group for what,3500 years? (By the way, even though I complained that Hellenthal et al didn't, in their prior paper, explain their sampling conditions, I really want to see their new map...150 clusters in Europe!)

    Aberdeen:And the Y haplotype I2 isn't surprising but the C certainly is - if C haplotype hunter gatherers made the transition to agriculture, why did C later become rare.
    That "C" is definitely a shocker. Before they found it in a WHG sample, other stray sightings were put down to easterners wandering west but it seems some C is "home grown". I don't know why it disappeared, but Aaron 1981 makes a good point...those I2a lineages may either be of the "Sardinian" variety or an extinct variety. Either way, they may have nothing to do with the I2a in the area now. Without more resolution we just won't know.

    I bet they wish they had known about this new extraction procedure for ancient dna. Which reminds me...the Lazaridis authors are still in the process of doing the y DNA analysis, or so the rumor goes, although we know how well that can turn out! Never again. :) Anyway, that may mean it will be a while till we get it.I definitely have a lot of questions about those Razib Khan tweets about Lazaridis' oral presentation.

    Oh, doesn't the paper say that it was a very small group in the Mesolithic, or words to that effect? I've always held to the old formulation that it takes a lot of territory to support hunter/gatherers, although I suppose fisher/gatherers might have needed less.

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    we know r1a and r1b were in bronze age Germany, but nowhere else so far! Not even in bronze-age/Iron-Age Hungary, Ucraine, or Bulgaria! It sure looks like they're not the original IE haplogroups after all, which are leading more towards J2a/J2b.

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    Table 1: Result summary from 13 Hungarian petrous bone samples.

    From Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory


    Nature Communications 5,Article number:5257doi:10.1038/ncomms6257 back to article
    Table 1: Result summary from 13 Hungarian petrous bone samples.
    Individual Mean coverage Human DNA (%) Period and culture Site Age (cal BC) Sex mtDNA haplogroup Y Haplogroup
    ALP, Alföld Linear Pottery; E.,early; F, female; KO1, Körös Neolithic; L., late; LBK, Linearbandkeramik; M, male; M., middle; mtDNA, mitochondrial DNA; Neol., Neolithic.
    Dates are in calibrated years BC at 2 s.d., 95.4% confidence interval calibrated using OxCal 4.2 and rounded to the decade. For the individual NE4 two dates were obtained.
    KO1 1.24 62.80 E. Neol. Körös Tiszaszőlős-Domaháza 5,650–5,780 M R3 I2a
    KO2 0.13 10.13 E. Neol. Körös Berettyóújfalu-Morotva-liget 5,570–5,710 F K1
    NE1 22.12 86.85 M. Neol. ALP Polgár-Ferenci-hát 5,070–5,310 F U5b2c
    NE2 0.19 45.85 M. Neol. ALP Esztár Group Debrecen Tócópart Erdõalja 5,060–5,290 F H
    NE3 0.13 37.60 M. Neol. Bükk Culture Garadna 5,010–5,210 F X2b
    NE4 0.10 15.16 M. Neol. Tiszadob-Bükk Culture Polgár-Ferenci-hát 5,050–5,290
    5,030–5,280
    F J1c
    NE5 1.04 71.02 M. Neol. Late ALP Kompolt-Kigyósér 4,990–5,210 M J1c1 C6
    NE6 1.18 80.36 M. Neol. LBK Culture Apc-Berekalja I. 4,950–5,300 M K1a3a3 C6
    NE7 1.14 62.81 L. Neol. Lengyel Culture Apc-Berekalja I. 4,360–4,490 M N1a1a1a I2a
    CO1 1.13 34.57 L. Copper Age, Baden Culture Apc-Berekalja I. 2,700–2,900 F H
    BR1 0.81 70.85 E. Bronze, Makó Culture Kompolt-Kigyósér 1,980–2,190 F K1c1
    BR2 21.25 55.31 L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture Ludas-Varjú-dűlő 1,110–1,270 M K1a1a J2a1
    IR1 1.31 56.37 Iron Age, Pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture Ludas-Varjú-dűlő 830–980 M G2a1 N



    The mtdna is interesting...many K's
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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  21. #21
    Advisor LeBrok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Most of them are still south of Otzi though, and the Sardinians, so slightly less WHG even after whatever mixing went on. Until we get the precise figures from the new Lazaridis paper and/or the right ancient samples, we won't know how much of the WHG in modern Europeans is from the groups who were in Europe proper when the farmers arrived, and how much might have been picked up by Yamnaya or come down from the far north east, yes?
    Good question. I would guess that around 10% from first contact. The rest came from north and east with tribes movement after Copper Age. It means that all the tribes were of agricultural character already but carrying still substantial 50-75% WHG. Before becoming farmers or pastoralists northern tribes were low on numbers and unable to penetrate and invade populous farmers from south. That's why we don't see any change in neolithic demographics of europe till bronze age.


    That "C" is definitely a shocker. Before they found it in a WHG sample, other stray sightings were put down to easterners wandering west but it seems some C is "home grown". I don't know why it disappeared, but Aaron 1981 makes a good point...those I2a lineages may either be of the "Sardinian" variety or an extinct variety. Either way, they may have nothing to do with the I2a in the area now. Without more resolution we just won't know.
    There is another possibility that C6 was involved in farming from the beginning along G2a folks. C6 were the HGs of south Europe (if sample from Spain and Hungary could indicate it). As such they could also extend into Near East, and came in contact with farmers way back. I2a samples point to different story. KO1 is still pure HG having not much with farming except finding himself in village garbage pit, and NE7 come from almost end of Neolithic. 2k years later after KO1. Ample of time to got mixed finally.

    I bet they wish they had known about this new extraction procedure for ancient dna. Which reminds me...the Lazaridis authors are still in the process of doing the y DNA analysis, or so the rumor goes, although we know how well that can turn out! Never again. :) Anyway, that may mean it will be a while till we get it.I definitely have a lot of questions about those Razib Khan tweets about Lazaridis' oral presentation.
    In mean time, we might get another surprise from the left field, like with this paper. Vacation is over, I'm really hoping for more. :)

  22. #22
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Very interesting study. A few thoughts.

    1) I wasn't too surprised to find I2a among Neolithic farmers. I2a was already found in Neolithic Seribia (Starcevo) and France (Cardium Pottery) alongside G2a. KO1 (c. 5700 BCE) is clearly an assimilated hunter-gatherer based on the autosomal DNA. The other I2a is NE7, who lived 1300 years later, by which time his autosomal DNA had become typically Neolithic, like that of other samples. It is a further confirmation that some I2a lineages were integrated early among Neolithic farmers, and later spread with them. It also confirms my hypothesis that I2a in Sardinia and the Basque country may not be indigenous but came from central or south-east Europe with Neolithic farmers.

    2) A bigger surprise was the presence of haplogroup C6. But if other Mesolithic lineages (I2a, I1 and F) were assimilated by Neolithic farmers, why not C6 too ? This was we have the full Paleolithic/Mesolithic European package present among H-G who adopted agriculture.

    3) The autosomal data and mitochondrial haplogroups are completely in line with that of previous studies. The only odd piece of data in my eyes is the Iron Age Pre-Scythian sample (IR1), which has typically Siberia Y-DNA (N) and mtDNA (G2a1), but fits right in the middle of modern Armenians autosomally. It is only moderatly strange, since modern Armenians do have 0.5% of Y-haplogroup N, as well as a few percent's of Siberian mtDNA and autosomes. What it means is that this Siberian gene flow into Armenia is probably older than 1000 BCE, or even 1500 BCE, since it takes at least a few centuries for Siberian genomes to get completely diluted and look completely like modern Armenians. I am not a specialist of Armenian history, but I cannot think of any migration from Russia to Armenia around this period. Even before that there was only incursions from the Steppes into the Caucasus during the Yamna and Catacomb periods.

    In this case the sample is from Hungary, so that prompts the question: how did an Armenian-looking genome with Siberian Y-DNA and mtDNA end up in Hungary c. 900 BCE ? Did it actually come directly from the Caucasus region ? Through which migration ? If we had only the Y-DNA and mtDNA we could presume that this was a direct migration from the Ural region to Hungary, which happened many times in practically all periods of prehistory. But since the autosomal DNA is not Siberian at all, nor eastern/central European, but South Caucasian, it's a real mystery how it ended up in Hungary undiluted.

    4) The data on pigmentation is also in agreement with earlier data. KO1, who is the only Mesolithic-looking genome, has blue eyes, dark hair and probably dark skin, just like La Braña. The only other sample with blue eyes is the other I2a, even though by then he has become more Sardinian-like autosomally and acquired fair hair (apparently a contradiction since Sardinians have the lowest incidence and fair hair and blue eyes in Europe). Hair and skin colour both seems to get fairer over time from the Late Neolithic onwards, but the transition to modern pigmentation is not nearly complete by the early Iron Age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    3) The autosomal data and mitochondrial haplogroups are completely in line with that of previous studies. The only odd piece of data in my eyes is the Iron Age Pre-Scythian sample (IR1), which has typically Siberia Y-DNA (N) and mtDNA (G2a1), but fits right in the middle of modern Armenians autosomally. It is only moderatly strange, since modern Armenians do have 0.5% of Y-haplogroup N, as well as a few percent's of Siberian mtDNA and autosomes. What it means is that this Siberian gene flow into Armenia is probably older than 1000 BCE, or even 1500 BCE, since it takes at least a few centuries for Siberian genomes to get completely diluted and look completely like modern Armenians. I am not a specialist of Armenian history, but I cannot think of any migration from Russia to Armenia around this period. Even before that there was only incursions from the Steppes into the Caucasus during the Yamna and Catacomb periods.

    In this case the sample is from Hungary, so that prompts the question: how did an Armenian-looking genome with Siberian Y-DNA and mtDNA end up in Hungary c. 900 BCE ? Did it actually come directly from the Caucasus region ? Through which migration ? If we had only the Y-DNA and mtDNA we could presume that this was a direct migration from the Ural region to Hungary, which happened many times in practically all periods of prehistory. But since the autosomal DNA is not Siberian at all, nor eastern/central European, but South Caucasian, it's a real mystery how it ended up in Hungary undiluted.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...arian_Conquest

    see iron age : the cimmerians

    they lived on the western part of the Pontic steppe
    7-800 BC they were ousted by the Scyths and they split in 2 :
    1 part fled west to the Carpathian basin
    another part fled south and crossed the Caucasus :
    first they assaulted Urartu (Armenia) and after they started wandering all across Anatolia with their horses and steel swords

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...arian_Conquest

    see iron age : the cimmerians

    they lived on the western part of the Pontic steppe
    7-800 BC they were ousted by the Scyths and they split in 2 :
    1 part fled west to the Carpathian basin
    another part fled south and crossed the Caucasus :
    first they assaulted Urartu (Armenia) and after they started wandering all across Anatolia with their horses and steel swords

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
    Ok, but the Cimmerian invasion of Armenia (Urartu) postdate the IR1 sample by a few centuries. Additionally the Cimmerians came from present-day Ukraine, not from Siberia. Finally, nobody knows what happened of the Cimmerians after their migration to Anatolia and Armenia. But even if they migrated back to central Europe, that would have been many centuries after IR1.

  25. #25
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    we know r1a and r1b were in bronze age Germany, but nowhere else so far! Not even in bronze-age/Iron-Age Hungary, Ucraine, or Bulgaria! It sure looks like they're not the original IE haplogroups after all, which are leading more towards J2a/J2b.
    Note that this study did not test any Y-DNA between 4,400 BCE and 1,100 BCE. The Indo-Europeans (mostly R1b branch) would have started invading eastern Romania and Bulgaria from c. 4000 to 3500 BCE, and would have reached Hungary around 3000 to 2500 BCE, which is right in the middle of the period not covered. But we know from Lee et al. (2012) that R1b was in East Germany (Thuringia) c. 2500 BCE.

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