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Thread: Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ok, but the Cimmerian invasion of Armenia (Urartu) postdate the IR1 sample by a few centuries. Additionally the Cimmerians came from present-day Ukraine, not from Siberia. Finally, nobody knows what happened of the Cimmerians after their migration to Anatolia and Armenia. But even if they migrated back to central Europe, that would have been many centuries after IR1.
    I have said for many years, one group of cimmerains went to pannonia ( hungaria )

    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...nnonia&f=false

    there are many papers on this



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Note that this study did not test any Y-DNA between 4,400 BCE and 1,100 BCE. The Indo-Europeans (mostly R1b branch) would have started invading eastern Romania and Bulgaria from c. 4000 to 3500 BCE, and would have reached Hungary around 3000 to 2500 BCE, which is right in the middle of the period not covered. But we know from Lee et al. (2012) that R1b was in East Germany (Thuringia) c. 2500 BCE.
    This is Mr. Hammer account that R-U106 began in east Germany

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    N + G2a1 are those Syberian autosomally in Modern samples or were they mostly Syberian before 3000 years already?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ok, but the Cimmerian invasion of Armenia (Urartu) postdate the IR1 sample by a few centuries. Additionally the Cimmerians came from present-day Ukraine, not from Siberia. Finally, nobody knows what happened of the Cimmerians after their migration to Anatolia and Armenia. But even if they migrated back to central Europe, that would have been many centuries after IR1.
    that is true, but the IR1 sample comes from Mezőcsát Culture who were Iranian tribes, equestrian nomads with iron tools and believed to be under control of the Cimmerians
    Cimmerians are believed to descend from Srubnaya culture and Iranian, so probably R1a,
    I guess some tribes from the forest-steppe zone (I2a1b and N1c) mixed with them, which would account for the IR1 sample to be N and also for pre-Slavic presence of I2a1b in the Balkan


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    that is true, but the IR1 sample comes from Mezőcsát Culture who were Iranian tribes, equestrian nomads with iron tools and believed to be under control of the Cimmerians
    Cimmerians are believed to descend from Srubnaya culture and Iranian, so probably R1a,
    I guess some tribes from the forest-steppe zone (I2a1b and N1c) mixed with them, which would account for the IR1 sample to be N and also for pre-Slavic presence of I2a1b in the Balkan
    Then another Iranian tribe. But that still doesn't explain the Armenian autosomal DNA. It would be interesting to run this same in Dodecad and Eurogenes to determine the exact admixtures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Then another Iranian tribe. But that still doesn't explain the Armenian autosomal DNA. It would be interesting to run this same in Dodecad and Eurogenes to determine the exact admixtures.
    it is simple, the present-day Armenians didn't get their Armenian-looking genoom from Armenians, but (in part) from Cimmerians, and so did the IR1 sample

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    One interesting thing is that KO2 seems less WHG admixted than the other, later neolithic samples. The Iceman, Sardinians and the NE1 - NE& samples all seem to have similar WHG admixture, whereas GOK4 seem top have even more WHG admixture. Also, pretty much every present day populations show lean more to WHG than their neolithic ancestors. This does mean slow but continuous uptake of WHG genetic material. As Angela keeps telling, hunter-gatherers need a large territory to feed themselves. Furthermore, farmers probably have a larger child survival rate. This means, IMHO, more evidence that parts of Europe's HG survived as (semi-)farmers and fishermen, as continuous gene flow from a community to another doesn't seem feasible if the former isn't thriving, or at least is keeping up.

    I think the Körös culture finds are very interesting, in that respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Then another Iranian tribe. But that still doesn't explain the Armenian autosomal DNA. It would be interesting to run this same in Dodecad and Eurogenes to determine the exact admixtures.
    But what armenian dna are you talking about ? I don't see any prove of that. On the PCa he is not even shifting towards them (in the axis from Hungarians) he is pulling towards northern Caucasus, not armenians, also on the position he is, he could as well be a Balkanite with some siberian admix (given his haplogroups), since on the Admixture anylisis he looks quite european, altough the yellow component (North-east Euro) probably is hiding the east-asian-like admix (since no asian samples are present).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Very interesting study. A few thoughts.

    1) I wasn't too surprised to find I2a among Neolithic farmers. I2a was already found in Neolithic Seribia (Starcevo) and France (Cardium Pottery) alongside G2a. KO1 (c. 5700 BCE) is clearly an assimilated hunter-gatherer based on the autosomal DNA. The other I2a is NE7, who lived 1300 years later, by which time his autosomal DNA had become typically Neolithic, like that of other samples. It is a further confirmation that some I2a lineages were integrated early among Neolithic farmers, and later spread with them. It also confirms my hypothesis that I2a in Sardinia and the Basque country may not be indigenous but came from central or south-east Europe with Neolithic farmers.

    2) A bigger surprise was the presence of haplogroup C6. But if other Mesolithic lineages (I2a, I1 and F) were assimilated by Neolithic farmers, why not C6 too ? This was we have the full Paleolithic/Mesolithic European package present among H-G who adopted agriculture.
    1) It's a pitty we don't have subclades, as I2a was and is all over Europe, but each subclade of I2a is confined over a specific area of Europe

    2/ C6 appears to have been more frequent than it is today. But because it is so rare today, we don't know much about it, and there are not many subclades.
    I doubt these 2 C6 have much to do with the mesolithic La Brana sample.
    These 2 e.g. may have their origin in neolithic Anatolia, the probably didn't come from Iberia.
    The La Brana C6 may well have split from these 2 neolithic C6 before the last ice age, each surviving in their own refuge.
    Anyway, much of the C6 is extinct today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The data on pigmentation is also in agreement with earlier data. KO1, who is the only Mesolithic-looking genome, has blue eyes, dark hair and probably dark skin, just like La Braña. The only other sample with blue eyes is the other I2a, even though by then he has become more Sardinian-like autosomally and acquired fair hair (apparently a contradiction since Sardinians have the lowest incidence and fair hair and blue eyes in Europe). Hair and skin colour both seems to get fairer over time from the Late Neolithic onwards, but the transition to modern pigmentation is not nearly complete by the early Iron Age.
    The spread of pigmentation / lactase persisistance and probably also other alleles seem very difficult to grasp
    Natural selection must have played a bigger role than for SNP spread

    R1 is said to be the origin of light pigmentation. That origin would lie in the Pontic steppe, some 6500 years ago. R1 is spread pretty much all over Europe today.
    Yet I is also omnipresent in Europe.
    I suspect I also played a role in the spread of light pigmentation, which is only confirmed by blue eye colour uptill now.
    On the other hand, the 8000 year old La Brana is supposed to be mixed with I neighbours, and he was still darkhaired and darkskinned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Note that this study did not test any Y-DNA between 4,400 BCE and 1,100 BCE. The Indo-Europeans (mostly R1b branch) would have started invading eastern Romania and Bulgaria from c. 4000 to 3500 BCE, and would have reached Hungary around 3000 to 2500 BCE, which is right in the middle of the period not covered. But we know from Lee et al. (2012) that R1b was in East Germany (Thuringia) c. 2500 BCE.
    The common belief so far has been that R1b came from Caucasus/Anatolia/Balkans into Western Europe with the Indo-Europeans, since the older/parent clades of West-Euro R1b are in Caucasus/Anatolia/Balkans. The current problem with that theory is that we're not finding any R1b in Bronze-Age/Iron-Age Balkans or Ukraine, which should have been there by that time. So maybe R1b in Balkans came from Germany sometime between 2500-500 BC, and it's the older clades because that is what was around at that time. And since it's a "late" arrival, it never made it past 20-30%, which is currently common in that area. It is >50% in Germany, because it has always been like that since 2500 BC. Just rearanging theories to fit the recent data...

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    The common belief so far has been that R1b came from Caucasus/Anatolia/Balkans into Western Europe with the Indo-Europeans, since the older/parent clades of West-Euro R1b are in Caucasus/Anatolia/Balkans. The current problem with that theory is that we're not finding any R1b in Bronze-Age/Iron-Age Balkans or Ukraine, which should have been there by that time. So maybe R1b in Balkans came from Germany sometime between 2500-500 BC, and it's the older clades because that is what was around at that time. And since it's a "late" arrival, it never made it past 20-30%, which is currently common in that area. It is >50% in Germany, because it has always been like that since 2500 BC. Just rearanging theories to fit the recent data...
    just wait for DNA from Unetice culture and maybe also some more Bell Beker DNA

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    So now is the final prove that I was right. The first appearance of J2 in Europe came during Bronze-Iron Age most likely with Indo Europeans. J2 and R1a/B are probably pastoralist Haplogroups and reached Europe with the Indo Europeans.

    Also that the Iron Age Hungarians end up somewhere between Europeans and Caucasians is another bullet prove that the "West Asian" like component reached Europe probably with Indo Europeans for the first time.

    The proto Indo Europeans were probably something like a cross between modern Europeans and northern West Asians.

    Imagine a half Lezgian half Russian or half Georgians half Lithuanians Individual. There you have your proto Indo Europeans.


    The two Bronze Age samples are more like modern continental Europeans but not exactly like modern Hungarians. The Iron Age sample is in the no-man's land between Europe and the Caucasus and his "Asian" Y chromosome and mtDNA seems to agree that this is no ordinary European.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2014/10/...ehistoric.html


    First the Thracian individuals which showed a strong Caucasus_Gedrosia signature and now Hungarian Iron Age individuals which appear like a crossing between Europeans and Caucasians.

    For at least 5 years have I preached that Indo Europeans must have been something between modern Northern West Asian and Europeans simply out of the logic that most Indo European groups in Western Asia do have significant amount of North European genes while most Indo Europeans in Europe show significant amoung of Caucasus_Gedrosia like genes, while both groups have significant Mediterranean farmer genes. This can only be explained the way that Proto Indo Europeans had both Caucasus-Gedrosia and North European (ANE impact!) like genes in combination with farmer component of course.
    Last edited by Alan; 22-10-14 at 18:06.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    On Dianekes they discuss that it could be just mistype error with iron age sample. It could rather be ydna G and mtdna N :)
    Which would make some more Caucasian sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    On Dianekes they discuss that it could be just mistype error with iron age sample. It could rather be ydna G and mtdna N :)
    Which would make some more Caucasian sense.

    Are you readiny my mind I was just about to post that too

    Yes it looks like they mixed up mt with yDNA. The individual was probably G2a1 yDNA and N mtdna makes much more sense.

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    I don't think we should draw too many conclusions on the basis of these samples, unless we want to conclude that the population of Hungary changed massively since the Iron Age, which admittedly is a good possibility. Half of the individuals have Y haplotypes (C and N) that are rare in Hungary today and the other half have haplotypes that are minority haplotypes in Hungary today and are now more common in the Balkans (I2 and J). Without deep subclade analysis, it's pointless to speculate whether these particular I2 individuals belong to a subclade that thrived or became extinct, so I see the presence of I2 in a farming village during the Neolithic simply as more proof that I2 hunter gatherers did take to farming fairly early. But if Hap C folk did as well, why did they more or less disappear later? And what do the Bronze Age and Iron Age samples have to tell us about the levels of ANE in Europe - that part is a mystery. I think it's best to assume that these results aren't typical for Hungary unless and until we get confirmation in the form of more samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    On Dianekes they discuss that it could be just mistype error with iron age sample. It could rather be ydna G and mtdna N :)
    Which would make some more Caucasian sense.
    That would indeed make more sense, especially since it would be the Caucasian G2a1 Y-DNA !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I don't think we should draw too many conclusions on the basis of these samples, unless we want to conclude that the population of Hungary changed massively since the Iron Age, which admittedly is a good possibility. Half of the individuals have Y haplotypes (C and N) that are rare in Hungary today and the other half have haplotypes that are minority haplotypes in Hungary today and are now more common in the Balkans (I2 and J). Without deep subclade analysis, it's pointless to speculate whether these particular I2 individuals belong to a subclade that thrived or became extinct, so I see the presence of I2 in a farming village during the Neolithic simply as more proof that I2 hunter gatherers did take to farming fairly early. But if Hap C folk did as well, why did they more or less disappear later? And what do the Bronze Age and Iron Age samples have to tell us about the levels of ANE in Europe - that part is a mystery. I think it's best to assume that these results aren't typical for Hungary unless and until we get confirmation in the form of more samples.
    some good observations! For sure their y-dna has changed massively since the Iron Age, to name a few factors: the huns, the germanic migrations, the slavic migrations, numerous plagues etc. Why is C completely gone, is a mystery to me. N is still found around that area in low %. The young I2a-din, probably the descendant of this I2a, now has moved more South (maybe pushed by the Huns). What I'm not sure is, is their R1a from the Huns or the Slavs? or are they the same population at different points in time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    some good observations! For sure the population has changed massively since the Iron Age, to name a few factors: the huns, the germanic migrations, the slavic migrations, numerous plagues etc. Why is C completely gone, is a mystery to me. N is still found around that area in low %. The young I2a-din, probably the descendant of this I2a, now has moved more South (maybe pushed by the Huns).
    These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.


    What I'm not sure is, is their R1a from the Huns or the Slavs? or are they the same population at different points in time?
    There are no records telling us that Slavs were Huns, or the Huns spoke Slavic. On other hand we know that Slavs came from agricultural culture, and Huns were nomads, horse riding warriors. If Huns spoke IE language it would have been some Iranic dialect like Scythian or Sarmatian.
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    I've been thinking about the J2 sample. I have been assuming that J spread from the Middle East via the Phoenicians and from the Balkans via the Greeks, being later spread around Europe by the Romans. But what if J2 was a major factor in the IE movement into Europe, as some people have suggested in the past? Although obviously the northern IE folk were mostly and perhaps completely R1a. Nah, I'm going to go with this J2 sample being an anomaly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.


    There are no records telling us that Slavs were Huns, or the Huns spoke Slavic. On other hand we know that Slavs came from agricultural culture, and Huns were nomads, horse riding warriors. If Huns spoke IE language it would have been some Iranic dialect like Scythian or Sarmatian.

    Huns were basically a nomad community of Sycthians and Mongols. The once which moved into Europe (White Huns) were probably the Scythian portion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.

    .........
    Pointless speculation, IMO. Those I2a Dinarics didn't appear out of nowhere, and estimates for the ages of subclades have often turned out to be wildly inaccurate. Without knowing what subclade these I2 samples are, there's no reason to assume they belonged to an extinct subclade, except for the fact that they were living with C type farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I've been thinking about the J2 sample. I have been assuming that J spread from the Middle East via the Phoenicians and from the Balkans via the Greeks, being later spread around Europe by the Romans. But what if J2 was a major factor in the IE movement into Europe, as some people have suggested in the past? Although obviously the northern IE folk were mostly and perhaps completely R1a. Nah, I'm going to go with this J2 sample being an anomaly.
    Dienekes has been advocating the J2 Indo-European connection for a long time. It wouldn't be a surprise if modern Armenia and Lake Sevan was the original PIE homeland. Hittites were believed to be a mountain folk. Could explain the full about face and movement back to Anatolia by the Celts (folk memory). All the new recent information about the interaction between Northern Mesopotamia, the Caucasus, and Steppe during the early Bronze Age helps. Could help to prove that both R1b and R1a were assimilated PIE folk in the Steppe (Yamna). It would explain the Basque connection with R1b (the original language of R1b).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I've been thinking about the J2 sample. I have been assuming that J spread from the Middle East via the Phoenicians and from the Balkans via the Greeks, being later spread around Europe by the Romans. But what if J2 was a major factor in the IE movement into Europe, as some people have suggested in the past? Although obviously the northern IE folk were mostly and perhaps completely R1a. Nah, I'm going to go with this J2 sample being an anomaly.
    why?

    it is possible. we play with %

    and if R1b pass from gedrosia to south west caucas and then to steppe, it is possible to get IEized.

    we speak about possibilities, and wits fits most.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.


    There are no records telling us that Slavs were Huns, or the Huns spoke Slavic. On other hand we know that Slavs came from agricultural culture, and Huns were nomads, horse riding warriors. If Huns spoke IE language it would have been some Iranic dialect like Scythian or Sarmatian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Huns were basically a nomad community of Sycthians and Mongols. The once which moved into Europe (White Huns) were probably the Scythian portion.
    The linguistic (and ethnic) affiliation of the Huns is a matter that has to my knowledge gone back and forth, mainly due to the scarcity of data. I agree that a Scytho-Sarmatian language is a very real possibility (these languages dominated a large swath of Eurasia for centuries, after all), but so is - in my opinion - Turkic. We don't even know for certain if the Xiongnu of Chinese sources are even the same as the Huns that show up a bit later in Western sources.

    What is clear about the Slavs, and I agree unanimously here with LeBrok, is that their language is not one of invaders from the steppe.

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