Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

[Aberdeen]

I don't think we should draw too many conclusions on the basis of these samples, unless we want to conclude that the population of Hungary changed massively since the Iron Age, which admittedly is a good possibility. Half of the individuals have Y haplotypes (C and N) that are rare in Hungary today and the other half have haplotypes that are minority haplotypes in Hungary today and are now more common in the Balkans (I2 and J). Without deep subclade analysis, it's pointless to speculate whether these particular I2 individuals belong to a subclade that thrived or became extinct, so I see the presence of I2 in a farming village during the Neolithic simply as more proof that I2 hunter gatherers did take to farming fairly early. But if Hap C folk did as well, why did they more or less disappear later? And what do the Bronze Age and Iron Age samples have to tell us about the levels of ANE in Europe - that part is a mystery. I think it's best to assume that these results aren't typical for Hungary unless and until we get confirmation in the form of more samples.

 

[Maciamo]

On Dianekes they discuss that it could be just mistype error with iron age sample. It could rather be ydna G and mtdna N
Which would make some more Caucasian sense.

That would indeed make more sense, especially since it would be the Caucasian G2a1 Y-DNA !

 

[kamani]

I don't think we should draw too many conclusions on the basis of these samples, unless we want to conclude that the population of Hungary changed massively since the Iron Age, which admittedly is a good possibility. Half of the individuals have Y haplotypes (C and N) that are rare in Hungary today and the other half have haplotypes that are minority haplotypes in Hungary today and are now more common in the Balkans (I2 and J). Without deep subclade analysis, it's pointless to speculate whether these particular I2 individuals belong to a subclade that thrived or became extinct, so I see the presence of I2 in a farming village during the Neolithic simply as more proof that I2 hunter gatherers did take to farming fairly early. But if Hap C folk did as well, why did they more or less disappear later? And what do the Bronze Age and Iron Age samples have to tell us about the levels of ANE in Europe - that part is a mystery. I think it's best to assume that these results aren't typical for Hungary unless and until we get confirmation in the form of more samples.

some good observations! For sure their y-dna has changed massively since the Iron Age, to name a few factors: the huns, the germanic migrations, the slavic migrations, numerous plagues etc. Why is C completely gone, is a mystery to me. N is still found around that area in low %. The young I2a-din, probably the descendant of this I2a, now has moved more South (maybe pushed by the Huns). What I'm not sure is, is their R1a from the Huns or the Slavs? or are they the same population at different points in time?

 

[LeBrok]

some good observations! For sure the population has changed massively since the Iron Age, to name a few factors: the huns, the germanic migrations, the slavic migrations, numerous plagues etc. Why is C completely gone, is a mystery to me. N is still found around that area in low %. The young I2a-din, probably the descendant of this I2a, now has moved more South (maybe pushed by the Huns).

These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.

What I'm not sure is, is their R1a from the Huns or the Slavs? or are they the same population at different points in time?

There are no records telling us that Slavs were Huns, or the Huns spoke Slavic. On other hand we know that Slavs came from agricultural culture, and Huns were nomads, horse riding warriors. If Huns spoke IE language it would have been some Iranic dialect like Scythian or Sarmatian.

 

[Aberdeen]

I've been thinking about the J2 sample. I have been assuming that J spread from the Middle East via the Phoenicians and from the Balkans via the Greeks, being later spread around Europe by the Romans. But what if J2 was a major factor in the IE movement into Europe, as some people have suggested in the past? Although obviously the northern IE folk were mostly and perhaps completely R1a. Nah, I'm going to go with this J2 sample being an anomaly.

 

[Alan]

These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.


There are no records telling us that Slavs were Huns, or the Huns spoke Slavic. On other hand we know that Slavs came from agricultural culture, and Huns were nomads, horse riding warriors. If Huns spoke IE language it would have been some Iranic dialect like Scythian or Sarmatian.

Huns were basically a nomad community of Sycthians and Mongols. The once which moved into Europe (White Huns) were probably the Scythian portion.

 

[Aberdeen]

These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.

.........

Pointless speculation, IMO. Those I2a Dinarics didn't appear out of nowhere, and estimates for the ages of subclades have often turned out to be wildly inaccurate. Without knowing what subclade these I2 samples are, there's no reason to assume they belonged to an extinct subclade, except for the fact that they were living with C type farmers.

 

[ebAmerican]

I've been thinking about the J2 sample. I have been assuming that J spread from the Middle East via the Phoenicians and from the Balkans via the Greeks, being later spread around Europe by the Romans. But what if J2 was a major factor in the IE movement into Europe, as some people have suggested in the past? Although obviously the northern IE folk were mostly and perhaps completely R1a. Nah, I'm going to go with this J2 sample being an anomaly.

Dienekes has been advocating the J2 Indo-European connection for a long time. It wouldn't be a surprise if modern Armenia and Lake Sevan was the original PIE homeland. Hittites were believed to be a mountain folk. Could explain the full about face and movement back to Anatolia by the Celts (folk memory). All the new recent information about the interaction between Northern Mesopotamia, the Caucasus, and Steppe during the early Bronze Age helps. Could help to prove that both R1b and R1a were assimilated PIE folk in the Steppe (Yamna). It would explain the Basque connection with R1b (the original language of R1b).

 

[Yetos]

I've been thinking about the J2 sample. I have been assuming that J spread from the Middle East via the Phoenicians and from the Balkans via the Greeks, being later spread around Europe by the Romans. But what if J2 was a major factor in the IE movement into Europe, as some people have suggested in the past? Although obviously the northern IE folk were mostly and perhaps completely R1a. Nah, I'm going to go with this J2 sample being an anomaly.

why?

it is possible. we play with %

and if R1b pass from gedrosia to south west caucas and then to steppe, it is possible to get IEized.

we speak about possibilities, and wits fits most.

 

[Taranis]

These I2a lineages might be extinct as well as C6. There is still 4 thousand years till I2a Dinaric showed up.


There are no records telling us that Slavs were Huns, or the Huns spoke Slavic. On other hand we know that Slavs came from agricultural culture, and Huns were nomads, horse riding warriors. If Huns spoke IE language it would have been some Iranic dialect like Scythian or Sarmatian.

Huns were basically a nomad community of Sycthians and Mongols. The once which moved into Europe (White Huns) were probably the Scythian portion.

The linguistic (and ethnic) affiliation of the Huns is a matter that has to my knowledge gone back and forth, mainly due to the scarcity of data. I agree that a Scytho-Sarmatian language is a very real possibility (these languages dominated a large swath of Eurasia for centuries, after all), but so is - in my opinion - Turkic. We don't even know for certain if the Xiongnu of Chinese sources are even the same as the Huns that show up a bit later in Western sources.

What is clear about the Slavs, and I agree unanimously here with LeBrok, is that their language is not one of invaders from the steppe.

 

[Goga]

At last we can for certainly say that J2a in Europe is not from the Romans, lol. From the very first beginning I was telling you guys that the J2a was actually a proto-Indo-European marker that migrated together with R1 from the Iranian Plateau into the Maykop horizon and from there into the Yamna horizon before migrating into the Europe. Indo-Europeans that Indo-Europized the Europe were already heavily diluted with native the Pontic-Caspian Steppes people. They were no more proto-Indo-European at all. J2a folks that mixed with R1a* folks on the Iranian Plateau and South Central Asia, became later known as 'Irani' or simply 'Aryans'. With other words, proto-Iranic, ancient Iranic folks were most probably of Caucaso-Gedrosia admixture. Those people invaded Northern India and raided the Pontic Caspian Sea Horizon. The homeland of the Iranic tribes, Aryana Verta, was a mountainous area. So I'm sure it was located somewhere between the Kurdistan Zagros Mountains and the South-Central Asia.

 

[Goga]

It is also possible that J2a migrated into the Pontic Caspian Steppes together with the R1a* and NOT R1b* at all!
But it's also possible that J2a came into Europe with the 'Iranic' people. Because Iranic people sometimes invaded Europe. Think about the Alanians. J2a in Europe can be from the Massagetae (proto-Alanians) or even the Medes (Mitanni) or simply the Sauromatians, the Solar Medes…

 

[Robert6]

it is simple, the present-day Armenians didn't get their Armenian-looking genoom from Armenians, but (in part) from Cimmerians, and so did the IR1 sample

In Hungary there were also Sigynes (Iranian tribe? or proto-Slavic tribe, the reconstruction of proto-Slavic shows that they came from the Steppes), possibly before the Cimmerians

 

[Goga]

In Hungary there were also Sigynes (Iranian tribe?), possible before the Cimmerians

Bingo! I'm proposing exactly the same thing. J2a in Hungary is most probably from the Massagetae, or the Solar Medes, the Sauromatians. J2a in Hungary can be already a fully evolved 'Iranic' marker, that has nothing to do with so called proto-Indo-Europeans.

 

[Robert6]

In Hungary there were also Sigynes (Iranian tribe? or proto-Slavic tribe, the reconstruction of proto-Slavic shows that they came from the Steppes), possibly before the Cimmerians

I checked he's positive for NO and N snps so he have N haplogroup, Slavic populations in Balkans have haplogroup N1a (also in Slovakia you may find N1a)
And he was there before the Cimmerians,
the Sigynes is a good proposal

 

[Robert6]

It is not strange that he was Armenian like
in central Asia you may find Y-Dna haplogroup N,
and in Caucasus and Cent.Asia you find mtdna G.
In Iron age the Cent.Asians wasn't so diferent from South Caucasians

 

[bicicleur 2]

I checked he's positive for NO and N snps so he have N haplogroup, Slavic populations in Balkans have haplogroup N1a (also in Slovakia you may find N1a)
And he was there before the Cimmerians,
the Sigynes is a good proposal

who are the Sigynes? what is their origin?

 

[bicicleur 2]

Bingo! I'm proposing exactly the same thing. J2a in Hungary is most probably from the Massagetae, or the Solar Medes, the Sauromatians. J2a in Hungary can be already a fully evolved 'Iranic' marker, that has nothing to do with so called proto-Indo-Europeans.

not the J2a1 sample mentioned in the study, which is dated +/- 1200 BC
the tribes you mention arrived in the west much later, after the Cimmerians and after the Scyths

 

[Angela]

I remember that somewhere on Dienekes' site there is a thread(s) which discusses the fact that a few Armenians plot pretty far away from the mass of Armenians, and there was some speculation that perhaps it was because of Russian admixture. (I just spent a half hour trying to find it, but I couldn't. If I have time later, I'll try again.) I'm just suggesting that those may be the few Armenians among whom IR plots. If you look closely at the mass of samples in the Near East you'll find that most of the Armenians plot down there somewhere around eastern Turkey, which makes sense.)

However, given the tweets from Razib Khan about the upcoming Lazaridis paper on Samarra, I don't see why the fact that IR plots near a "possibly" mixed Armenian/Russian sample is either surprising or upsetting.
#ASHG14 eastern hg from Karelia and sammara. ANE related to Eastern hg. yamnaya had near East and Caucasus
#ASHG14 ANE in Europe from eastern hg groups? (via yamnaya)
#ASHG14 yamnaya better source for intrusive group into north Europe late Neolithic bronze age
#ASHG14 corded ware 36% nonlocal ancestry. Karelian. low bound
#ASHG14 yamnaya modeled as 50/50 Armenian Karelian. corded ware 75% yamnaya
#ASHG14 yamnaya % peaks in north Europe. lower in south Europe. lowest in Sardinia
#ASHG14 yamnaya = proto-indoeuropean

Perhaps there was Caucasus influence even back in the Bronze Age. much less the Iron Age. I'm told there is now a mad scramble to analyze his data. Of course, I don't know what he'll turn out to be...I'm willing to wait for analyses to be done, and I have no personal stake in the outcome. Anyway, I'm not going to get into speculating based on fragmentary results or rumors posted by people on other sites. I had enough of that. I'll wait for the paper. All I'm saying is that the plotting of IR shouldn't be a total surprise.

I don't think we can make any judgments about the I2a or the C6 because the subclades aren't resolved enough for either the Mesolithic samples or the ones under discussion. We don't even know if all the I2a in these samples is the same one.

Epoch:One interesting thing is that KO2 seems less WHG admixted than the other, later neolithic samples.

We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
Koros 2: Y dna unknown


What we do know is that Koros 1 looks like a Mesolithic hunter/fisher-gatherer. I'm leaning toward LeBrok's speculation that he was either a hunter-gatherer trying to learn how to farm, or a local absorbed into a very early attempt at settlement by Neolithic farmers. Koros2 is a very southward plotting Neolithic farmer. He looks to me like an example of what these people were like when they first arrived.

Also, take a look at the dates:
Koros 1:5,650–5,780
Koros 2: 5,570–5,710

They're also two different sites.

The rest of the Neolithic samples are from a later time period. Enough time to have absorbed a little hunter gatherer. However, it's not as much as was absorbed apparently by the farmers in the west, because quite a few of them plot south of Otzi. Or maybe it was just a little bit over the centuries? Otzi and the Copper Age sample from this study plot at about the same latitude don't they? Also, can anybody find Stuttgart on there? Even my bifocals aren't working that well.

Oh, and of the NE 1-7, two of them are C6, and 1 is I2a, but who knows of what variety. Four of them are missing Y dna.

Ed. to remove some rumour mongering of my own. Also, thanks to Epoch for checking the gender identification of these Neolithic samples, and catching that Koros 2 was female, as were NE 1-4. Thanks to Arvisto as well.

We don't know what the ydna of their fathers might have been.

 

[Goga]

not the J2a1 sample mentioned in the study, which is dated +/- 1200 BC
the tribes you mention arrived in the west much later, after the Cimmerians and after the Scyths

Yeah, you're right. I made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me. Somehow I thought that Sauromatians were older than the Cimmerians. But it's actually vice versa! Never came into my mind that the Cimmerians lived around at the same time as Mitanni (proto-Medes). Althought Mitanni (proto-Medes) existed already second millennium BC. But if this is true, then Cimmerians were actually related or even the same as Mitanni, and therefore related to the ancient Medes, or in this case Sauromatians, the Solar Medes. So, what I'm trying to say is that the Cimmerians were basically the same as the Mitanni. But later on Cimmerians became known as the Sauromatians and the Mitanni became known simply as Medes.