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Thread: Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    This is what it is saying: "Individual BR2, L. Bronze, Kyjatice Culture (1,110–1,270 BC) = Y-Haplogroup J2a1". At that time (around 1250 BC) even the West Iranian people were fully evolved. Same time when the Mitanni became the Medes in Kurdistan.

    OK but it is unlikely that the Medes had yet reached any part of this area if even Scythians weren't yet there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    Thanks for that correction Epoch. I missed that. I better go back and check on NE 1-4. I'm getting sloppy.
    No you don't

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    OK but it is unlikely that the Medes had yet reached any part of this area if even Scythians weren't yet there.
    No, not the Medes, but the relatives of the Mitanni reached that part of the area (Hungary?) . Cimmerians can be older than the Medes, and if this true then the Cimmerians actually could be closely related to the Mitanni. That's why I'm saying that the Cimmerians could evolve into the Saomartians and the Mitanni simply evolved into the Medes. That also explains why there are many links between Saomartians (Solar Medes) and the Medes, simply because they share the same ancestors (Cimmerians/Mitanni)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, not the Medes, but the relatives of the Mitanni reached that part of the area (Hungary?) . Cimmerians can be older than the Medes, and if this true then the Cimmerians actually could be closely related to the Mitanni. That's why I'm saying that the Cimmerians could evolve into Saomartians and the Mitanni simply evolved into the Medes. That also explains why there are many links between Saomartians (Solar Medes) and the Medes, simply because they share the same ancestors (Cimmerians/Mitanni)!
    Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Cimmerians etc they all share same ancestors. The question is how far back those ancestors go. And it is hard to tell and we can only speculate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Cimmerians etc they all share same ancestors. The question is how far back those ancestors go. And it is hard to tell and we can only speculate.
    From what I learned today is that the Cimmerians are OLDER than Scythians (East Iranians) and the Medes (West Iranians). Cimmerians lived almost at the same times as Mitanni!; before the Medes, Saomartians, Scythians (Saka) etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    Angela, y-dna of other samples is not known because those girls never had it. You must have missed their gender :)

    C6 is quite intrigue.
    Thanks, Arvistro. I credited both you and Epoch in ed. to the post upthread. :)


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    Could it be that the Cimmerians and the Sigynes are the same?
    Herodotus reports of the Cimmerians being expelled by the Scyths, and fleeing across the Caucasus.
    But he does not report about Cimmerians fleeing west.
    Archeological evidence suggests a group of the same origin settled in the Balkans.
    I don't think so, there are many Cimmerian and Scythian Kurgans in West Caucasus, and they influenced also South Caucasus. But no N haplogroup is there.
    Sigynes had different Horses, than Scythians and Cimmerians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Exactly I saw and red the same. Those few Armenian samples were out of the mass and were probably mixed. They ended up among North Caucasians.
    Indo-European languages must have originated from an area between the Caucasus and where ever the proto Finn-Ugrians were. We know that for sure since both North Caucasian languages as well as Finn-Ugrian langueages have loanwords from proto-IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    Pointless speculation, IMO. Those I2a Dinarics didn't appear out of nowhere, and estimates for the ages of subclades have often turned out to be wildly inaccurate. Without knowing what subclade these I2 samples are, there's no reason to assume they belonged to an extinct subclade, except for the fact that they were living with C type farmers.
    Kamani was being much more speculative than LeBrok by suggesting that I2a-Din is "probably the descendant of this I2a." LeBrok was correctly pointing out that these could be an extinct subclade. Or they could be I2a-M26. Or something else. There's no reason to assume that they belonged to any particular subclade, extinct or not. We've already seen some I2 diversity among hunter-gatherer samples (although farmers seem to have been I2a-M26 as a whole so far).

    By the way, have "estimates for the ages of subclades" "turned out to be wildly inaccurate" for anything that used the Nordtvedt method so far? I can only recall errors on the order of 30% for it when compared against SNP estimates and the like. Certainly there has been nothing to suggest that I2a-Din is anywhere near as old as these samples. And if we're talking about I2a-Din's origins, why not take the actual I2a1b ancient samples in Luxembourg and Sweden as pointers to its origin rather than these that may not even be on that branch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Indo-European languages must have originated from an area between the Caucasus and where ever the proto Finn-Ugrians were. We know that for sure since both North Caucasian languages as well as Finn-Ugrian langueages have loanwords from proto-IE.
    Not necessary because most of the Indo European lones in Finno Ugric are of Indo_Iranian and Germanic origin and could simply be from Scythians/Cimmerians and Vikings. But than Finno_Ugric, Caucasian and Indo European have a common origin.

    But I agree with you and yet would extend it from Caucasus_ Finno_Ugric homeland to Mesopotamia/Iranian Plateau all the way into South Central Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    This is another important quote in light of the tweets about Lazaridis et al:
    A third genomic shift occurs around the turn of the first millennium BC. The single Iron Age genome, sampled from the pre-Scythian Mezőcsát Culture (Iron Age (IR1), 830–980 cal BC), shows a distinct shift towards Eastern Eurasian genotypes, specifically in the direction of several Caucasus population samples within the reference data set. This result, supported by mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups (N and G2a1, respectively, both with Asian affinities) suggests genomic influences from the East. This is supported by the archaeological record which indicates increased technological and typological affinities with Steppe cultures at this time, including the importation of horse riding, carts, chariots and metallurgical techniques26. Modern Hungarians occupy an intermediate position between the IR1 and more Western Bronze Age genomes, most likely reflecting the continuation of admixture in the Central European gene pool since this time.
    So indeed IR1 individual had Y hg G2a1 and mt hg N. Or is it still unsure thing?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Originally Posted by Angela
    We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
    Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
    Koros 2: Y dna unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    KO2 is a female. So no Y-DNA.
    Perhaps another misspel?
    Quote from the paper, sup. page 30:
    Grave 44 (specimen KO2,
    Supplementary Table 1) is of an adult male, which was excavated at the western
    border of the main area

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    So indeed IR1 individual had Y hg G2a1 and mt hg N. Or is it still unsure thing?
    Looks like it is really Yhg N.
    Check table 13 page 23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Looks like it is really Yhg N.
    Check table 13 page 23.
    I agree. It's plainly part of the Y Dna Table. They must have just reversed it in the body of the paper.

    Also, on Supplementary Table 12 pg. 22, labeled Mitochondrial Haplogroups, it shows:
    Ir1: G2a1-95.5%

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    Originally Posted by Angela
    We don't know if the y dna of the two samples, K01 and K02, are the same.
    Koros 1: I2a subclade unknown
    Koros 2: Y dna unknown


    Originally Posted by epoch
    KO2 is a female. So no Y-DNA.

    LeBrok: Perhaps another misspel?
    Quote from the paper, sup. page 30:
    Grave 44 (specimen KO2,
    Supplementary Table 1) is of an adult male, which was excavated at the western
    border of the main area
    I know, confusing, right?

    It seems pretty clear they're saying it's a male. Then on the chart in the body of the paper they list KO2 as female.

    Either it's another error, this time in the supplement perhaps, or maybe it's because they had so few snps to work with for this specimen that when it came to the chart itself, they couldn't put down "Male".

    If I'm reading it right...
    Number of snps"
    KO1 305,000
    IR1 305,000
    K02 39,000

    Ed. Did you see where they said they have the skull of Koros 1? I wonder if they'll put a picture up on the net? Oh, and it's pretty specifically dated: 5800-5650 BC

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    I found the PCA's pretty interesting. DISCLAIMER: I know the ancient samples are projected onto the modern samples, so it isn't exact. I get it. However, if it didn't give a general idea...if it was worthless, they wouldn't be doing it. Also, people have to be consistent. We can't use them when we like the results and discard them when we don't.

    The one on Page 6 is for NE1 and Br2 and projects them onto the HGDP data set:
    NE1 is Southeast of Sardinians
    BR2 (J2a1) is at the tail end of the French, but it looks as if the sample is south of the Hungarians...parallel to some Bulgarians and Romanians, but west of them.

    In the PCA on page 9, interestingly enough, BR1 plots quite a bit north of approximately where BR2 was...still with the French, but this time parallel to the Basques, just east of them. Nowhere near the Orcadians, however, much less north eastern populations like the Lithuanians.

    Isn't this strangely reminiscent of the results for the "Thracians" in that paper that were felt to be too badly analyzed, or so fragmentary, or unreliable once again because they were "projected" onto modern samples, or whatever it was, to be taken seriously? Maybe there were problems with them, but when seen in the light of these new samples, there's a definite western European signature to these new Bronze Age people who show up in the Balkans and also in Hungary.

    The one on Page 8 projects a number of the ancient samples onto the 1000 Genomes data set:
    NE1 is far to the south by itself. This population no longer exists.
    KO1, the sample from a Neolithic context, but who is H/G autosomally, is up near the Finns although he doesn't land on them. The Finns really occupy a whole section of the PCA by themselves. Interestingly, a tweet from the Conference said that the new Hellenthal paper will show that they break out first from Europe, then the Scandinavians, and then the Irish? Is that right?
    BR2 lands practically on top of the southernmost CEU sample. There's that NW European thing going on again.
    IR1 doesn't land on any of the European clusters, but he is to the left of the Northern European one, and nowhere near the Southern European one.

    I'm reminded of all those F3 statistics showing the link between Northern Europeans and West Asians that Dienekes used to post.

    Anyway, I'm coming to no hard and firm conclusions, but it's certainly interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    BR2 (J2a1) is at the tail end of the French, but it looks as if the sample is south of the Hungarians...parallel to some Bulgarians and Romanians, but west of them.

    In the PCA on page 9, interestingly enough, BR1 plots quite a bit north of approximately where BR2 was...still with the French, but this time parallel to the Basques, just east of them. Nowhere near the Orcadians, however, much less north eastern populations like the Lithuanians.

    Isn't this strangely reminiscent of the results for the "Thracians" in that paper that were felt to be too badly analyzed, or so fragmentary, or unreliable once again because they were "projected" onto modern samples, or whatever it was, to be taken seriously? Maybe there were problems with them, but when seen in the light of these new samples, there's a definite western European signature to these new Bronze Age people who show up in the Balkans and also in Hungary.
    I've been saying this for years. But now we have some autosomal evidence conferming what the ancient Greek mythology says: "Illyrians, Celts and Gauls, are the 3 sons of Polyphemus and Galatea" (assuming that Thracians and Illyrians were close enough genetically and their signature extended all the way up to Hungary)

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    I am a bit stunned, why, basically no R1 has been found recently in these ancients ( on the continent) , yet 2 out of 2 for the latest britons ( hinxton ) where R1, I was wondering why nothing from a period of 5500BC to 880BC for R1 on the continent

    I then found
    The published Y haplogroup for KO1 was I2a, but the calls below further show that he was I2a1*.

    but he has also some R positive markers with in him ( as well as T markers)
    R1b1a2a1a2c1k-S730
    R1b1a2a2c-L150.2!/PF6274.2!
    T-PF5607
    T1a-PF5604


    I am confused on what this all means, any ideas?

    I can understand having markers of A, B, C etc .........but positive markers for R and T which are younger than I is puzzling
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am a bit stunned, why, basically no R1 has been found recently in these ancients ( on the continent) , yet 2 out of 2 for the latest britons ( hinxton ) where R1, I was wondering why nothing from a period of 5500BC to 880BC for R1 on the continent
    Seriously? The Britons are from a much later time period (A.D. in fact).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I then found
    The published Y haplogroup for KO1 was I2a, but the calls below further show that he was I2a1*.
    I can tell from the wording that you're referencing Genetiker. For those interested, here is his Y-DNA analysis of KO1: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...garian-genome/

    As for KO1 being I2a1*, Genetiker is not quite right. Based on those calls, KO1 could be I2a1*, I2a1c*, or I2a1e. But either way, he was for sure not on the same branch as I2a-Din or I2a-M26.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    but he has also some R positive markers with in him ( as well as T markers)
    R1b1a2a1a2c1k-S730
    R1b1a2a2c-L150.2!/PF6274.2!
    T-PF5607
    T1a-PF5604

    I am confused on what this all means, any ideas?
    False positives. We can tell because lots of upstream and phyloequivalent SNPs are negative for those. On the other hand, the I2a1 calls are consistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Scythians, Sarmatians, Medes, Cimmerians etc they all share same ancestors. The question is how far back those ancestors go. And it is hard to tell and we can only speculate.
    of course, they are all the same age,
    but they entered history through Greek historians or Assyrians writings
    Cimmerians came into history first because they were in the Pontic steppe
    the others came later inot history when they moved west and became known to the Greek historians

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    I can tell from the wording that you're referencing Genetiker. For those interested, here is his Y-DNA analysis of KO1: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...garian-genome/

    As for KO1 being I2a1*, Genetiker is not quite right. Based on those calls, KO1 could be I2a1*, I2a1c*, or I2a1e. But either way, he was for sure not on the same branch as I2a-Din or I2a-M26.
    so the most likely is some line of I2a1 that is now extinct ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    so the most likely is some line of I2a1 that is now extinct ?
    The possibilities are (1) extinct or unknown branch, (2) related to the somewhat rare, Western Europe-oriented I2a1c* branch, or (3) related to the very rare France-oriented I2a1e branch. I'm not sure I'm ready to guess which is most likely.

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    Another thing: What does the fact that a clear HG (Y-DNA as well as autosomal) man shows up among clear farmers say about patrilocality of either HG of farmers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The possibilities are (1) extinct or unknown branch, (2) related to the somewhat rare, Western Europe-oriented I2a1c* branch, or (3) related to the very rare France-oriented I2a1e branch. I'm not sure I'm ready to guess which is most likely.
    technically I2a1c and I2a1e do not exist : M26, I2a1c, I2a1d and I2a1e have a common SNP : CTS595
    it's time ISOGG updates the tree

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Another thing: What does the fact that a clear HG (Y-DNA as well as autosomal) man shows up among clear farmers say about patrilocality of either HG of farmers?
    If his bones were found in a proper grave it would mean that he was a valid member of this farming community. However his bone were found in village's garbage pit. He might have been a discarded slave.
    This particular village only existed for couple of generations. What does this mean? Unsuccessful experiment of HGs in farming? A village of pioneer farmers who went into HGs territory and was wiped out by unhappy HGs?

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