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Thread: Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    The possibilities are (1) extinct or unknown branch, (2) related to the somewhat rare, Western Europe-oriented I2a1c* branch, or (3) related to the very rare France-oriented I2a1e branch. I'm not sure I'm ready to guess which is most likely.
    what about: I2a2 M423, I2a2a M359 / P41.2 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm surprised too, but these are such small sample sizes.

    The Neolithic period results are surprising too. Maybe, as has been suggested, it's just because it's a small sample, and at this period Hungary was pretty mixed in terms of yDna.

    We aren't getting much resolution either, so who knows what particular flavor of I2a we have at each time period.

    We do know that come clades of I2a were incorporated into Neolithic communities and then expanded. Maybe that's what happened here? They're certainly "Neolithic" in autosomal terms.

    I'm still plowing through the paper. Life is getting in the way. :)

    I see Dienekes has made some comments. He's certainly right about the pigmentation. Pigmentation changes were taking place before the Indo-Europeans ever showed up, I think, and it was happening among people very much like the Sardinians and Otzi.

    Why does lactase persistence appear so late in history? Does anyone have any ideas? It must have something to do with pastoralism, yes?( i.e. milk consumption instead of just processed milk products like cheese?) Could that also have speeded up the pigmentation changes? If Bronze Age pastoralists got the light pigmentation alleles from the Neolithic farmers, and their diet was very dairy based, the selection for both would occur, perhaps, given that you need Vitamin D to absorb calcium?
    http://www.health.harvard.edu/newswe...our-health.htm

    Just thinking out loud, folks...
    "Why does lactase persistence appear so late in history? Does anyone have any ideas?"

    Atlantic coast imo.

    1) The Atlantic coast is its own ecozone.
    2) LBK didn't spread all the way west to the Atlantic coast.
    3) The Atlantic Megalith culture originally stuck to the coast (seafood).

    Those imply to me that the Atlantic climate zone was unsuitable for the original neolithic crops producing a low yield. If correct this would have led to a HG zone between LBK and Megalith on the continent and in the interior of the Isles. As soon as a way of expanding into that climate zone was found the population that found it could expand into that whole zone very rapidly.

    Maybe mixing the low yielding cereals with milk was the solution found.

    (edit: the same argument might also appliy to the Funnelbeaker zone)
    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 23-10-14 at 20:28. Reason: added line

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    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    OK I need to ask a question here. I know I have said before I feel two steps behind in this area, but I thought I might have been playing myself a little short, now I`m not so sure. Bronze Age in this area, should be R1.. something...no?
    If R1 was originally west and north of the Black Sea and wanted to move west but LBK (or equivalent relatively high population density farmers) were in the way then maybe initially they had to go around them i.e.

    1) north of the Carpathians
    2) along the Danube then divert through Croatia into northern Italy -> Southern France -> Iberia
    3) maritime route to Iberia
    etc

    various options but all initially forced to divert around that central bloc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I'm not surprised by the shift from a Sardinian like population to one that includes some eastern mix by the Bronze Age, and the skin and eye colour results would suggest a dietary influence. And the Y haplotype I2 isn't surprising but the C certainly is - if C haplotype hunter gatherers made the transition to agriculture, why did C later become rare. And I'm surprised there's no R1a in the Bronze or Iron Age samples. I'd agree that maybe the Y haplotypes aren't going to prove to be typical examples.
    "why did C later become rare"

    If there was a conquest and a two-tier society developed with y dna C as part of the lower layer then maybe it declined gradually over time through "droit de seigneur" i.e. in each generation a higher percentage of the lower layer females had kids by the upper layer males than vice versa.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ok, but the Cimmerian invasion of Armenia (Urartu) postdate the IR1 sample by a few centuries. Additionally the Cimmerians came from present-day Ukraine, not from Siberia. Finally, nobody knows what happened of the Cimmerians after their migration to Anatolia and Armenia. But even if they migrated back to central Europe, that would have been many centuries after IR1.
    Could Armenians have originally come from the same place? If Cimmerians took that route to Armenia after being displaced from the steppe maybe the Armenians did too i.e. what if the Armenians used to live on the west pontic steppe and crossed over to Armenia after some event or other?

    Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    One interesting thing is that KO2 seems less WHG admixted than the other, later neolithic samples. The Iceman, Sardinians and the NE1 - NE& samples all seem to have similar WHG admixture, whereas GOK4 seem top have even more WHG admixture. Also, pretty much every present day populations show lean more to WHG than their neolithic ancestors. This does mean slow but continuous uptake of WHG genetic material. As Angela keeps telling, hunter-gatherers need a large territory to feed themselves. Furthermore, farmers probably have a larger child survival rate. This means, IMHO, more evidence that parts of Europe's HG survived as (semi-)farmers and fishermen, as continuous gene flow from a community to another doesn't seem feasible if the former isn't thriving, or at least is keeping up.

    I think the Körös culture finds are very interesting, in that respect.
    One possibility might be a conquest leading to a two-tier society. Remains from the early days of the conquest might be definitely identifiable as individuals from either one of the two tiers but remains from a later period might be mixed.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    IR1 in Iron Age Hungary was N1a, he have these snps of haplogroup N1a tested
    Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
    P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    IR1 in Iron Age Hungary was N1a, he have these snps of haplogroup N1a tested
    Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
    P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-
    So the IR1 is parental to Balkanian N1a haplogroup


    The Administrator of YFull compared his results from BAM File with other N1a
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg261520
    And he shares these snps with other N1a
    Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+

    But he is negative for these snps that N1a from Serbia do have
    P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-
    Last edited by Robert6; 25-10-14 at 00:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I am a bit stunned, why, basically no R1 has been found recently in these ancients ( on the continent) , yet 2 out of 2 for the latest britons ( hinxton ) where R1, I was wondering why nothing from a period of 5500BC to 880BC for R1 on the continent

    I then found
    The published Y haplogroup for KO1 was I2a, but the calls below further show that he was I2a1*.

    but he has also some R positive markers with in him ( as well as T markers)
    R1b1a2a1a2c1k-S730
    R1b1a2a2c-L150.2!/PF6274.2!
    T-PF5607
    T1a-PF5604


    I am confused on what this all means, any ideas?

    I can understand having markers of A, B, C etc .........but positive markers for R and T which are younger than I is puzzling
    If the Carpathian basin was heavily populated maybe initially R1 had to go around it and the big fight came later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    what about: I2a2 M423, I2a2a M359 / P41.2 ?
    We're using the ISOGG 2014 tree, so M423 is "I2a1b" and M359 is "I2a1b1". Several phyloequivalent SNPs to M423 were negative and M359 was tested directly and was negative. So we can say pretty comfortably that KO1 is not I2a1b.

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    The Thracian individuals were also descriped as more "French, Tuscan like". And turned out 50% Caucasus_ Gedrosia. This could be in context to other ancient samples, which completely lacked anything West Asian like beside the one Tuscan individual which showed first signals. Also keep in mind Gedrosia among Europeans peaks in Western Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    Maybe mixing the low yielding cereals with milk was the solution found.
    That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.

    Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note. :)
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The Thracian individuals were also descriped as more "French, Tuscan like". And turned out 50% Caucasus_ Gedrosia. This could be in context to other ancient samples, which completely lacked anything West Asian like beside the one Tuscan individual which showed first signals. Also keep in mind Gedrosia among Europeans peaks in Western Europeans.
    IIRC one of them (P192-1) was plotting as typical Neolithic Farmer. Meaning that even 2k years after IE (or other influences from West Asia and Eastern Europe), populations of Old Europe and new IE tribes were not very well mixed. I think we are going to start finding this phenomenon lasting to pretty much modern times, when resolution of samples increases.
    The other one K8 didn't plot as Neolithic Farmer but more like Modern European. They mentioned that sample was too damaged, possible contaminated, with inconclusive results. As Angela mentioned before, perhaps K8 is in line with recent finding of IR1 from Hungary. To bad they didn't try to plot K8 on PCA chart. We could see if both Iron Age guys go together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.

    Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note. :)
    "plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather"

    Yes, over time the crops were adapted. It might have only been critical at a particular moment in time (and then occasionally later with famines etc).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Greying Wanderer View Post
    "Why does lactase persistence appear so late in history? Does anyone have any ideas?"

    Atlantic coast imo.

    1) The Atlantic coast is its own ecozone.
    2) LBK didn't spread all the way west to the Atlantic coast.
    3) The Atlantic Megalith culture originally stuck to the coast (seafood).

    Those imply to me that the Atlantic climate zone was unsuitable for the original neolithic crops producing a low yield. If correct this would have led to a HG zone between LBK and Megalith on the continent and in the interior of the Isles. As soon as a way of expanding into that climate zone was found the population that found it could expand into that whole zone very rapidly.

    Maybe mixing the low yielding cereals with milk was the solution found.

    (edit: the same argument might also appliy to the Funnelbeaker zone)
    That's a very plausible argument for why there would be a strong selective sweep for lactase persistence along the Atlantic (climate favoring dairying not farming, plus low sunlight), but in the context of this paper we're talking about a very late sample in Hungary. The sweep there must have been affected by slightly different although perhaps related factors, yes?

    According to the author of this paper:
    Selection on this variant was undoubtedly driven by dairying, but despite evidence for milk residues in ceramic vessels from a Körös context in the 6th millenium BC (ref. 36) this variant remains absent throughout the 10 Neolithic/Copper Age stages of our transect. Absence of the lactase persistence allele has been reported before from Neolithic specimens37, 38, although the selective sweep has been modelled as originating between Central Europe and the Balkans ~4–6,000 years BC (ref. 34). Its absence here until the late Bronze Age, ~1,000 years BC, suggests a more recent dating of this extremely interesting episode in the dynamic history of European genomes.

    The paper that did that modelling is:
    Itan, Y., Powell, A., Beaumont, M. A., Burger, J. & Thomas, M. G. The origins of lactase persistence in Europe. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5, e1000491 (2009).

    Where the sweeps occurred and why is also, of course, different from where the mutation first occurred, although that's of much less importance. The human genome mutates all the time. Most are irrelevant, some are harmful, and some turn out to come in handy given certain environmental conditions, and there is selection for those

    Unless you're suggesting that the mutation and the first sweep took place along the Atlantic and then went all the way east to reach Hungary?

    Ed.
    LeBrok: That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.

    Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note. :)
    Sorry, LeBrock, cross post.

    Yes, that makes sense. The sweep would not have been as complete where climate didn't change as much and where large cow herds could not be maintained, although migration into those areas from more northern zones would have introduced it whether it was really necessary or not.

    (I depend on you to provide the optimism, LeBrok. :))


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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.

    Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note. :)
    That seems like a very logical explanation, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's completely correct. Lactase persistence could originally have been brought to Europe by people with a Y haplotype of the R sort, and the genetic adaptation could have gradually spread into the general population because people with lactase persistence had a better chance of survival, for the reasons you mentioned. There are no R haplotype folk in these samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    So the IR1 is parental to Balkanian N1a haplogroup
    I could not find anything on google re Balkanian N1a. It is all full with mtd N1a..
    Can you share a good link on Balkan N1a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's a very plausible argument for why there would be a strong selective sweep for lactase persistence along the Atlantic (climate favoring dairying not farming, plus low sunlight), but in the context of this paper we're talking about a very late sample in Hungary. The sweep there must have been affected by slightly different although perhaps related factors, yes?

    According to the author of this paper:
    Selection on this variant was undoubtedly driven by dairying, but despite evidence for milk residues in ceramic vessels from a Körös context in the 6th millenium BC (ref. 36) this variant remains absent throughout the 10 Neolithic/Copper Age stages of our transect. Absence of the lactase persistence allele has been reported before from Neolithic specimens37, 38, although the selective sweep has been modelled as originating between Central Europe and the Balkans ~4–6,000 years BC (ref. 34). Its absence here until the late Bronze Age, ~1,000 years BC, suggests a more recent dating of this extremely interesting episode in the dynamic history of European genomes.

    The paper that did that modelling is:
    Itan, Y., Powell, A., Beaumont, M. A., Burger, J. & Thomas, M. G. The origins of lactase persistence in Europe. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5, e1000491 (2009).

    Where the sweeps occurred and why is also, of course, different from where the mutation first occurred, although that's of much less importance. The human genome mutates all the time. Most are irrelevant, some are harmful, and some turn out to come in handy given certain environmental conditions, and there is selection for those

    Unless you're suggesting that the mutation and the first sweep took place along the Atlantic and then went all the way east to reach Hungary?

    Ed.


    Sorry, LeBrock, cross post.

    Yes, that makes sense. The sweep would not have been as complete where climate didn't change as much and where large cow herds could not be maintained, although migration into those areas from more northern zones would have introduced it whether it was really necessary or not.

    (I depend on you to provide the optimism, LeBrok. :))
    "Unless you're suggesting that the mutation and the first sweep took place along the Atlantic and then went all the way east to reach Hungary?"

    I think the mutation could have come from anywhere - random mutation - but the chance of finding it among the limited remains of a long ago population with a low percentage must be pretty low.

    On the other hand given the later Celtic advance down the Danube from the west it could have spread back that way i.e. it might have come up the Danube as a low frequency adaptation, expanded greatly along the Atlantic coast and then spread back down the Danube again in the opposite direction.

    But as you say I don't think where it arose matters that much. The critical part is the environment (or environments) that produced the sweep. Plus there may have been more than one stage i.e. an increase on the steppe due to pastoralism but not quite as life or death so not reaching NW Euro levels and then some of those people fetching up along the Atlantic coast pre-prepared for that environment and a rapid expansion.


    edit: misunderstood your point - yes i think it quite possible LP existed at lower frequencies moving west and then came back east with the Celts at higher frequencies.

    Last edited by Greying Wanderer; 23-10-14 at 23:16. Reason: clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    IR1 in Iron Age Hungary was N1a, he have these snps of haplogroup N1a tested
    Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
    P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-
    Is this N1a the same type as found in the croatian islands of Krk etc.............home of the liburnians?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by arvistro View Post
    I could not find anything on google re Balkanian N1a. It is all full with mtd N1a..
    Can you share a good link on Balkan N1a?
    I do not know if these are the best available links but here you go:

    http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=572 (a bit old but anyway...)

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...DNA%20Project/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert6 View Post
    IR1 in Iron Age Hungary was N1a, he have these snps of haplogroup N1a tested
    Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
    P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-

    where did you get that info?

    I have N1c2b2-L665

    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    where did you get that info?

    I have N1c2b2-L665

    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/
    You're wrong too.

    Read Genetiker more closely: "The calls show that IR1 belonged to haplogroup N, but not to N1a or N1c." L665 is downstream of several SNPs that were negative, so it must be considered a false positive.

    Looks like IR1 could be N1b-L732. Seems rare but within range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    You're wrong too.

    Read Genetiker more closely: "The calls show that IR1 belonged to haplogroup N, but not to N1a or N1c." L665 is downstream of several SNPs that were negative, so it must be considered a false positive.

    Looks like IR1 could be N1b-L732. Seems rare but within range.
    some state origins as gulf of bothnia

    a Finnish particular clade that emerges after the Uralic mtDNA Z contribution) and an Y-DNA legacy (e.g. Y-DNA haplogroup N1b and N1c1).
    also
    18% in the lands of the Veps
    Veps or Vepsians are Finnic people that speak the Veps language, which belongs to the Finnic branch of the Uralic languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    where did you get that info?

    I have N1c2b2-L665

    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-an-iron-age-hungarian-genome/
    The Administrator of YFull compared his results from BAM File with other N1a
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg261520
    And he shares these snps with other N1a
    Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+

    But he is negative for these snps that N1a from Serbia do have
    P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    The admixture run from the paper hasn't been referenced yet. I think it's interesting when you look at the comparison between the "Hunter-Gatherer", the Neolithic sample, the Bronze Age samples, and the Iron Age sample:
    Attachment 6786

    The green component is modal in the Neolithic samples, the royal blue in Armenians (and the Druze, but present at large levels throughout the Middle East), and the red component is strongest in the Bedouin. The yellow orange color is obviously the "hunter-gatherer".

    The whole chart can be found as Supplementary Figure 10, page 10:
    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...mms6257-s1.pdf


    It's interesting that there seems to be the beginning of a genetic change in the Copper Age, but the changes in culture in this area, at least, seem to stem more from cultural diffusion for that period, not migration, as LeBrok alluded to upthread. Of course, we're only looking at one sample, so it may not be representative, but according to the authors the archaeology does not show the arrival of intrusive elements.

    The change in the Bronze Age is obvious, and then again in the pre-Scythian Iron Age sample.

    Of course, we have to keep in mind that like any of the other admixture components they are made up of the three ancestral populations as per Lazaridis et al. So, that royal blue component is made up of EEF and perhaps larger percentages of ANE than we have currently in Europe? Perhaps some UHG as well? I know Lazaridis said that their algorithm couldn't be used for Near Easterners, so I don't know if we have a good handle on that. The Sardinians have, in this run, a bit of the blue "West Asian" and they have the yellow HG, at levels which seem similar to the levels for them in Lazaridis et al.

    In this regard I searched this site for the discussion about the "Thracian" late Iron Age sample, K8. In that discussion, Sile published some admixture results which were apparently produced by Genetiker. These are the Dodecad K7 results for K8:
    K7b

    • 46.44% Atlantic_Baltic
    • 36.25% West_Asian
    • 17.30% Southern
    • 0.00% African
    • 0.00% East_Asian
    • 0.00% Siberian
    • 0.00% South_Asian

    Ed. The attachment is drawn from Figure 10 of the supplement, not Figure 4 of the body of the paper. The link is now correct.
    Last edited by Angela; 25-10-14 at 01:29.

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