what about: I2a2 M423, I2a2a M359 / P41.2 ?
Ancient DNA from Hungary-Christine Gamba et al
- Thread starter Angela
- Start date
what about: I2a2 M423, I2a2a M359 / P41.2 ?
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
I'm surprised too, but these are such small sample sizes.
The Neolithic period results are surprising too. Maybe, as has been suggested, it's just because it's a small sample, and at this period Hungary was pretty mixed in terms of yDna.
We aren't getting much resolution either, so who knows what particular flavor of I2a we have at each time period.
We do know that come clades of I2a were incorporated into Neolithic communities and then expanded. Maybe that's what happened here? They're certainly "Neolithic" in autosomal terms.
I'm still plowing through the paper. Life is getting in the way.
I see Dienekes has made some comments. He's certainly right about the pigmentation. Pigmentation changes were taking place before the Indo-Europeans ever showed up, I think, and it was happening among people very much like the Sardinians and Otzi.
Why does lactase persistence appear so late in history? Does anyone have any ideas? It must have something to do with pastoralism, yes?( i.e. milk consumption instead of just processed milk products like cheese?) Could that also have speeded up the pigmentation changes? If Bronze Age pastoralists got the light pigmentation alleles from the Neolithic farmers, and their diet was very dairy based, the selection for both would occur, perhaps, given that you need Vitamin D to absorb calcium?
http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/vitamin-d-and-your-health.htm
Just thinking out loud, folks...
"Why does lactase persistence appear so late in history? Does anyone have any ideas?"
Atlantic coast imo.
1) The Atlantic coast is its own ecozone.
2) LBK didn't spread all the way west to the Atlantic coast.
3) The Atlantic Megalith culture originally stuck to the coast (seafood).
Those imply to me that the Atlantic climate zone was unsuitable for the original neolithic crops producing a low yield. If correct this would have led to a HG zone between LBK and Megalith on the continent and in the interior of the Isles. As soon as a way of expanding into that climate zone was found the population that found it could expand into that whole zone very rapidly.
Maybe mixing the low yielding cereals with milk was the solution found.
(edit: the same argument might also appliy to the Funnelbeaker zone)
Last edited:
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
If R1 was originally west and north of the Black Sea and wanted to move west but LBK (or equivalent relatively high population density farmers) were in the way then maybe initially they had to go around them i.e.
1) north of the Carpathians
2) along the Danube then divert through Croatia into northern Italy -> Southern France -> Iberia
3) maritime route to Iberia
etc
various options but all initially forced to divert around that central bloc
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
"why did C later become rare"
If there was a conquest and a two-tier society developed with y dna C as part of the lower layer then maybe it declined gradually over time through "droit de seigneur" i.e. in each generation a higher percentage of the lower layer females had kids by the upper layer males than vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
Could Armenians have originally come from the same place? If Cimmerians took that route to Armenia after being displaced from the steppe maybe the Armenians did too i.e. what if the Armenians used to live on the west pontic steppe and crossed over to Armenia after some event or other?
Just a thought.
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
One possibility might be a conquest leading to a two-tier society. Remains from the early days of the conquest might be definitely identifiable as individuals from either one of the two tiers but remains from a later period might be mixed.
IR1 in Iron Age Hungary was N1a, he have these snps of haplogroup N1a tested
Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-
Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-
So the IR1 is parental to Balkanian N1a haplogroup
The Administrator of YFull compared his results from BAM File with other N1a
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,7459.msg261520.html#msg261520
And he shares these snps with other N1a
Y6503+, Y6511+, Y6559+, Y6560+, Y6561+, Y6562+, Y6564+, Y6566+, Y6470+, Y6482+, Y6494+, Y6515+, Y6518+, Y6521+, Y6523+, Y6525+, Y6536+, Y6537+, Y6541+, Y6542+, Y6543+, Y6544+, Y6546+, Y6548+, Y6549+, Y6553+, Y6557+, Y6569+, Y6570+, Y6571+, Y6572+, Y6576+, Y6577+, Y6586+, Y6587+, Y6589+
But he is negative for these snps that N1a from Serbia do have
P189-, Y6466-, Y6498-, Y6504-, Y6505-, Y6508-, Y6509-, Y6512-, Y6565-, Y6468-, Y6471-, Y6473-, Y6476-, Y6478-, Y6481-, Y6486-, Y6488-, Y6514-, Y6522-, Y6528-, Y6533-, Y6539-, Y6540-, Y6550-, Y6551-, Y6556-, Y6558-, Y6573-, Y6580-, Y6581-, Y6583-
Last edited:
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
If the Carpathian basin was heavily populated maybe initially R1 had to go around it and the big fight came later.
sparkey
Great Adventurer
- Messages
- 2,250
- Reaction score
- 352
- Points
- 0
- Location
- California
- Ethnic group
- 3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
- mtDNA haplogroup
- U4a (Cornish)
We're using the ISOGG 2014 tree, so M423 is "I2a1b" and M359 is "I2a1b1". Several phyloequivalent SNPs to M423 were negative and M359 was tested directly and was negative. So we can say pretty comfortably that KO1 is not I2a1b.
Alan
Elite member
- Messages
- 2,517
- Reaction score
- 450
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Kurdish
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1a1a1
- mtDNA haplogroup
- HV2a1 +G13708A
The Thracian individuals were also descriped as more "French, Tuscan like". And turned out 50% Caucasus_ Gedrosia. This could be in context to other ancient samples, which completely lacked anything West Asian like beside the one Tuscan individual which showed first signals. Also keep in mind Gedrosia among Europeans peaks in Western Europeans.
LeBrok
Elite member
- Messages
- 10,261
- Reaction score
- 1,617
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Calgary
- Ethnic group
- Citizen of the world
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b Z2109
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H1c
That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.
Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note.
LeBrok
Elite member
- Messages
- 10,261
- Reaction score
- 1,617
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Calgary
- Ethnic group
- Citizen of the world
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b Z2109
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H1c
IIRC one of them (P192-1) was plotting as typical Neolithic Farmer. Meaning that even 2k years after IE (or other influences from West Asia and Eastern Europe), populations of Old Europe and new IE tribes were not very well mixed. I think we are going to start finding this phenomenon lasting to pretty much modern times, when resolution of samples increases.
The other one K8 didn't plot as Neolithic Farmer but more like Modern European. They mentioned that sample was too damaged, possible contaminated, with inconclusive results. As Angela mentioned before, perhaps K8 is in line with recent finding of IR1 from Hungary. To bad they didn't try to plot K8 on PCA chart. We could see if both Iron Age guys go together.
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.
Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note.
"plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather"
Yes, over time the crops were adapted. It might have only been critical at a particular moment in time (and then occasionally later with famines etc).
Angela
Elite member
- Messages
- 21,823
- Reaction score
- 12,329
- Points
- 113
- Ethnic group
- Italian
That's a very plausible argument for why there would be a strong selective sweep for lactase persistence along the Atlantic (climate favoring dairying not farming, plus low sunlight), but in the context of this paper we're talking about a very late sample in Hungary. The sweep there must have been affected by slightly different although perhaps related factors, yes?
According to the author of this paper:
Selection on this variant was undoubtedly driven by dairying, but despite evidence for milk residues in ceramic vessels from a Körös context in the 6th millenium BC (ref. 36) this variant remains absent throughout the 10 Neolithic/Copper Age stages of our transect. Absence of the lactase persistence allele has been reported before from Neolithic specimens37, 38, although the selective sweep has been modelled as originating between Central Europe and the Balkans ~4–6,000 years BC (ref. 34). Its absence here until the late Bronze Age, ~1,000 years BC, suggests a more recent dating of this extremely interesting episode in the dynamic history of European genomes.
The paper that did that modelling is:
Itan, Y., Powell, A., Beaumont, M. A., Burger, J. & Thomas, M. G. The origins of lactase persistence in Europe. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5, e1000491 (2009).
Where the sweeps occurred and why is also, of course, different from where the mutation first occurred, although that's of much less importance. The human genome mutates all the time. Most are irrelevant, some are harmful, and some turn out to come in handy given certain environmental conditions, and there is selection for those
Unless you're suggesting that the mutation and the first sweep took place along the Atlantic and then went all the way east to reach Hungary?
Ed.
LeBrok: That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.
Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note.
Sorry, LeBrock, cross post.
Yes, that makes sense. The sweep would not have been as complete where climate didn't change as much and where large cow herds could not be maintained, although migration into those areas from more northern zones would have introduced it whether it was really necessary or not.
(I depend on you to provide the optimism, LeBrok.
)Aberdeen
Regular Member
- Messages
- 1,835
- Reaction score
- 380
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Scottish, English and German
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- I1
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H4
That's right. I think Lactose Persistence developed in Northern Europe during Bronze Age collapse, when climate got cooler and cereal crops were failing. LP fully developing during Dark Ages, another period of cooler and drier spells, when Europe got depopulated again. In last cooling phase of Little Ice Age we don't see drop in demographics of North and no signs of civilization decline. That means that by Little Ice Age lactose tolerance was spread already in most of populations, plus variations of northern cereals like rye was suitable to grow even in colder weather.
Farming technologies and transportation network were more advanced too, helping food production and even growth of economies and demographics in 19th century in particular. It is a good sign, that we crossed the threshold in technological development to keep food production even in worst times and prevent civilization from collapsing anymore. A bit of topic, but very optimistic note.
That seems like a very logical explanation, which doesn't necessarily mean that it's completely correct. Lactase persistence could originally have been brought to Europe by people with a Y haplotype of the R sort, and the genetic adaptation could have gradually spread into the general population because people with lactase persistence had a better chance of survival, for the reasons you mentioned. There are no R haplotype folk in these samples.
arvistro
Elite member
- Messages
- 1,004
- Reaction score
- 187
- Points
- 0
I could not find anything on google re Balkanian N1a. It is all full with mtd N1a..
Can you share a good link on Balkan N1a?
Greying Wanderer
Elite member
- Messages
- 533
- Reaction score
- 86
- Points
- 0
That's a very plausible argument for why there would be a strong selective sweep for lactase persistence along the Atlantic (climate favoring dairying not farming, plus low sunlight), but in the context of this paper we're talking about a very late sample in Hungary. The sweep there must have been affected by slightly different although perhaps related factors, yes?
According to the author of this paper:
Selection on this variant was undoubtedly driven by dairying, but despite evidence for milk residues in ceramic vessels from a Körös context in the 6th millenium BC (ref. 36) this variant remains absent throughout the 10 Neolithic/Copper Age stages of our transect. Absence of the lactase persistence allele has been reported before from Neolithic specimens37, 38, although the selective sweep has been modelled as originating between Central Europe and the Balkans ~4–6,000 years BC (ref. 34). Its absence here until the late Bronze Age, ~1,000 years BC, suggests a more recent dating of this extremely interesting episode in the dynamic history of European genomes.
The paper that did that modelling is:
Itan, Y., Powell, A., Beaumont, M. A., Burger, J. & Thomas, M. G. The origins of lactase persistence in Europe. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5, e1000491 (2009).
Where the sweeps occurred and why is also, of course, different from where the mutation first occurred, although that's of much less importance. The human genome mutates all the time. Most are irrelevant, some are harmful, and some turn out to come in handy given certain environmental conditions, and there is selection for those
Unless you're suggesting that the mutation and the first sweep took place along the Atlantic and then went all the way east to reach Hungary?
Ed.
Sorry, LeBrock, cross post.
Yes, that makes sense. The sweep would not have been as complete where climate didn't change as much and where large cow herds could not be maintained, although migration into those areas from more northern zones would have introduced it whether it was really necessary or not.
(I depend on you to provide the optimism, LeBrok.
"Unless you're suggesting that the mutation and the first sweep took place along the Atlantic and then went all the way east to reach Hungary?"
I think the mutation could have come from anywhere - random mutation - but the chance of finding it among the limited remains of a long ago population with a low percentage must be pretty low.
On the other hand given the later Celtic advance down the Danube from the west it could have spread back that way i.e. it might have come up the Danube as a low frequency adaptation, expanded greatly along the Atlantic coast and then spread back down the Danube again in the opposite direction.
But as you say I don't think where it arose matters that much. The critical part is the environment (or environments) that produced the sweep. Plus there may have been more than one stage i.e. an increase on the steppe due to pastoralism but not quite as life or death so not reaching NW Euro levels and then some of those people fetching up along the Atlantic coast pre-prepared for that environment and a rapid expansion.
edit: misunderstood your point - yes i think it quite possible LP existed at lower frequencies moving west and then came back east with the Celts at higher frequencies.
Last edited:
Kristiina
Regular Member
- Messages
- 158
- Reaction score
- 66
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Finnish
- mtDNA haplogroup
- I5a
I do not know if these are the best available links but here you go:
http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=572 (a bit old but anyway...)
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/N Russia DNA Project/
This thread has been viewed 160624 times.