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Thread: Ust-Ishim: a 45.000 siberian

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    DOESN'T LOOK VERY EUROPEAN TO ME! I spent the $32 on the study and looks like it paid off because I get to be SOOOOO RIGHT.
    Dude, why pay when you have all the free the Supplementary Info, including the admixture above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    central-asia is mainly a desert
    but along the edge of the mountains there is a corridor, from to Hindu Kush to Siberia
    Ust-Ishim is on that corridor, near Siberia
    But LGM was *after* Ust-Ishim. It was when Mal'ta boy lived his short live. What I mean is that two tundra's appear with a desert in between. That could have *caused* the split between two populations. Just speculation, mind you, on the basis of rather flimsy maps downloaded from the internet. It merely caught my eye.

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    Shame there is only K=10. It suppresses Lithuanian, i.e. mesolithic affinity. Would be nice to see it done like Lazardis, especially since only at K=20 that admixture run showed MA-1's west-asian affinity to be very much like Kalash.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    But LGM was *after* Ust-Ishim. It was when Mal'ta boy lived his short live. What I mean is that two tundra's appear with a desert in between. That could have *caused* the split between two populations. Just speculation, mind you, on the basis of rather flimsy maps downloaded from the internet. It merely caught my eye.
    there is something strange : when these people entered Siberia, near the Altaï Mountains, they all went east, western Siberia remained rather uninhabited, and those in western Siberia had less sophisticated tools
    eastern Siberia must have had better hunting grounds beofre the ice age

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    I used this high tech modelling software to merge Ust-Ishim's 4 largest populations (Papuan, East Asian (Korean), South Asian (Hindu), and Neanderthal so we can get an accurate image of what he looked like. Science is amazing. Terrifying.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Another noteworthy thing is that Ust-Ishim shows NO Denisovan admixture. While being, relatively speaking, in the neighbourhood of the Denisova cave.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Also noteworthy is that John Hawks considers this indvidual ancestral to no known recent population.
    http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/...m-fu-2014.html

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hawks
    Considering the fact that Ust'-Ishim is equally similar to all Asian and Native American populations and equally similar to the two ancient genomes, Fu and colleagues write this:

    This suggests that the population to which the Ust’- Ishim individual belonged diverged from the ancestors of present-day West Eurasian and East Eurasian populations before—or simultaneously with—their divergence from each other.
    I would give a strong interpretation to this. It seems unlikely that Chinese (Han) and Andaman Island (Onge) populations could be uniquely descended from this ancient Siberian individual, so Ust'-Ishim is not at the stem of the later diversification of Eurasian people. That means that these later people derive from a different group than that represented by Ust'-Ishim. The initial dispersal of humans into Eurasia contained at least one dead-end population that contributed at most some very small amount of ancestry to living people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Another noteworthy thing is that Ust-Ishim shows NO Denisovan admixture. While being, relatively speaking, in the neighbourhood of the Denisova cave.
    Eurogenes also pointed out the lack of Denisovan admixture and larger chunks found in Ust-Ishim.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/
    Nature 505,43–49(02 January 2014)doi:10.1038/nature12886
    Extended Data Table 2: Selected D-statistics supporting inferences about gene flows
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...12886_ST2.html

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

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    Is the entire genome published? We could use a admixture break down like in lazardis: K=2 to K=20
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...13673_SF3.html

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    I think this is interesting for Y DNA I. There are only a few defining mutations for IJ. 49,000 ybp puts the IJ TMRCA right before the emergence of the first AMH into Europe; which is 44,000-41,000 ybp according to this study. Contemporanous with the Aurignacian culture.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture10484.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is something strange : when these people entered Siberia, near the Altaï Mountains, they all went east, western Siberia remained rather uninhabited, and those in western Siberia had less sophisticated tools
    eastern Siberia must have had better hunting grounds beofre the ice age
    If you take a look at the ADMIXTURE runs from MA-1 and AG-2 - dated 42k and 17k years old - you see an increasing amount of North Euro. Let us assume that Usty's population *is* partly ancestral to ANE, than ANE was the result of some sort of admixture, where some of Usty's relatives gave rise to the Kalash part in ANE. But where did all the other affinity go, in that case? Anyway, the idea could be that some Western groups kept moving to the East during the LGM to find the part of Usty's population being cut off from the bulk of Asian population by that desert I mentioned before, and thus giving rise to MA-1 like population.

    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/...-gora-genomes/
    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/...a-gora-genome/

    Just an idea, mind you. Thinking aloud. Would that mean that the Amerindian part of MA-1 was brought east by westerners?

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    I think this is interesting for Y DNA I. There are only a few defining mutations for IJ. 49,000 ybp puts the IJ TMRCA right before the emergence of the first AMH into Europe; which is 44,000-41,000 ybp according to this study. Contemporanous with the Aurignacian culture.

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture10484.html
    There are only a few defining mutations for IJ.
    Indeed IJKLT probably split into IJ K and LT in a few 1000 years, and IJ and K split further soon after.
    But how many defining mutations are there for I ?

    I'm pretty confident Aurignacian was IJ, but I doubt it was I
    Gravettian, 32000 year old is believed to be I

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Another noteworthy thing is that Ust-Ishim shows NO Denisovan admixture. While being, relatively speaking, in the neighbourhood of the Denisova cave.
    Denisovan DNA is only found at some elevated rate in modern populations of Oceania.
    That is why the mixing is beleived to have happened with Denisovans living in southeast Asia

    These people from Usht Ishim had allready a well developped technology, with better tools than Neanderthals or Denisovans.
    That's why they didn't mix with Neanderthal or Denisovan any more.
    Instead Neanderthal and Denisovan went extinct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Is the entire genome published? We could use a admixture break down like in lazardis: K=2 to K=20
    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...13673_SF3.html
    no, there is high coverage but no full coverage :

    http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/...m-fu-2014.html

    The new paper is interesting because it is the first modern human we have at high coverage, where the age is sufficient to estimate the number of missing mutations that would be expected in a descendant living today. Even though Ust'-Ishim may have no living descendants, this is a measure of how short his DNA branches are compared to the branches connecting living humans to their common ancestors.

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    Genetiker has put up a page on Ust-Ishim.

    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/...-ishim-genome/

    On MDLP World-22 a rather substantial European (or west-eurasian) component starts to show up:

    MDLP World-22


    • 24.86% Indian
    • 17.52% East-South-Asian
    • 10.30% Sub-Saharian
    • 7.57% Austronesian
    • 6.59% North-East-European
    • 6.03% West-Asian
    • 5.93% Near_East
    • 4.42% Melanesian
    • 3.60% Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic
    • 2.70% Samoedic
    • 2.60% East-Siberean
    • 2.07% Indo-Iranian
    • 1.22% South-African
    • 1.12% Mesoamerican
    • 0.68% Pygmy
    • 0.67% Arctic-Amerind
    • 0.53% North-Amerind
    • 0.51% Indo-Tibetan
    • 0.39% North-European-Mesolithic
    • 0.33% Paleo-Siberian
    • 0.23% South-America_Amerind
    • 0.11% North-Siberean
    However, on MDLP Ancient Roots K17 we see very little EEF, WHG and ANE:

    MDLP Ancient Roots K17

    • 29.81% Ancestral_South_Indian
    • 16.83% South_East_Asian
    • 15.37% African_Sub_Saharian
    • 9.02% Melano-Austronesian
    • 7.08% Ancestral_North_Indian
    • 3.60% Ancestral_Mediterranean_EEF
    • 3.54% West_European_HG
    • 3.13% Ancestral_East_Siberian
    • 2.92% Ancestral_East_European_ANE
    • 1.93% Uralic
    • 1.90% Caucasian-Basal
    • 1.60% Amerindian
    • 1.29% Ancestral_West_Siberian
    • 1.01% Ancestral_Sami-Finnic
    • 0.72% Circumpolar
    • 0.12% Archaic_African
    • 0.12% Near-East-Basal

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    If we take the World 22 results.

    We got ~18,5% West Asian, Northeast Euro, Near East, Atl Med Neolithic, North European Mesolithic and Indo_Iranian
    ~25% Indian.
    ~20,5% East-South Asian, East/Paleo/North Siberian
    ~15,5% Austronesian, Melanesian, Samoedic, Pygmy
    ~2% Amerindian
    ~10% Sub Saharan African.

    So basically an Eurasian individual showing similarities too all major genetic regions of this world.

    The k17 results don't make sense seem to have an error because Ust-Ishim is described as very close to WHG and ANE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    If we take the World 22 results.

    We got ~18,5% West Asian, Northeast Euro, Near East, Atl Med Neolithic, North European Mesolithic and Indo_Iranian
    ~25% Indian.
    ~20,5% East-South Asian, East/Paleo/North Siberian
    ~15,5% Austronesian, Melanesian, Samoedic, Pygmy
    ~2% Amerindian
    ~10% Sub Saharan African.

    So basically an Eurasian individual showing similarities too all major genetic regions of this world.

    The k17 results don't make sense seem to have an error because Ust-Ishim is described as very close to WHG and ANE.
    Genetiker states clearly that:

    "The Veddoid South Asian or Indian components were the largest components for Ust’-Ishim for all of the calculators that had such components. The second-largest components tended to be Mongoloid Southeast Asian or East Asian components, which is consistent with Ust’-Ishim belonging to a Y haplogroup that was ancestral to the main Mongoloid Y haplogroup."

    How do you manage to get Eurasian out of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by motzart View Post
    Genetiker states clearly that:

    "The Veddoid South Asian or Indian components were the largest components for Ust’-Ishim for all of the calculators that had such components. The second-largest components tended to be Mongoloid Southeast Asian or East Asian components, which is consistent with Ust’-Ishim belonging to a Y haplogroup that was ancestral to the main Mongoloid Y haplogroup."

    How do you manage to get Eurasian out of that?

    He basically explains that in the post you quoted.

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    It is remarked on several places that Tianyuan is also considered equidistant to all Non-Africans. However, his West-Eurasian affinity is smaller and different:

    http://genetiker.wordpress.com/2013/...anyuan-genome/

    MDLP World-22


    • 24.62% Veddoid (“Indian”)
    • 21.58% Sinid (“East-South-Asian”)
    • 16.09% Tungid (“East-Siberean”)
    • 14.13% Pacifid (“North-Amerind”)
    • 9.40% North-Indid (“Indo-Iranian”)
    • 7.37% Negroid (“Sub-Saharian”)
    • 3.23% Orientalid (“Near_East”)
    • 1.85% Melanesid (“Austronesian”)
    • 1.53% Mediterranean (“Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic”)
    • 0.19% East-Sibirid (“Paleo-Siberian”)
    • 0.00% Alpine (“West-Asian”)
    • 0.00% Aryan Nordic (“North-East-European”)
    • 0.00% Australid (“Melanesian”)
    • 0.00% Bambutid (“Pygmy”)
    • 0.00% Brazilid (“South-America_Amerind”)
    • 0.00% Capoid (“South-African”)
    • 0.00% Centralid (“Mesoamerican”)
    • 0.00% Cro-Magnon Nordic (“North-European-Mesolithic”)
    • 0.00% Eskimid (“Arctic-Amerind”)
    • 0.00% Qiangid (“Indo-Tibetan”)
    • 0.00% Uralid (“Samoedic”)
    • 0.00% West-Sibirid (“North-Siberean”

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    Basically Ust-Ishim is the Proto Eurasian before they diverged into West and East Eurasians.[/QUOTE]
    Altai area is a crossbreeding ground for three different kinds of human species, why it is here , peoples' paths crossed ?

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    I wonder about the same question, it seems that Siberia‘s Altai Mountains is a point where later races come and go ,

    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    there is something strange : when these people entered Siberia, near the Altaï Mountains, they all went east, western Siberia remained rather uninhabited, and those in western Siberia had less sophisticated tools
    eastern Siberia must have had better hunting grounds beofre the ice age

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    I expect Siberia was a happening place during the Ice Age. Consider how different the geography was. Those massive rivers running south to north today would have even more of a fall as the ice sheets were weighing down the land in the north. When they met the glaciers you'd have massive lakes. With plenty of islands I expect. Don't know where they'd drain with the north blocked, Caspian/Black Sea?

    At the same time you'd have the same amount of insolation as you do today, which means pretty hot summers. Meaning a lot of meltwater.

    And Siberia was teeming with animals and megafauna. It was probably the place outside of Africa where the megafauna hung on the longest.

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