Laz 2014 or 15 Predicting Competition

Goga · Dec 6, 2014

But 'Aryans' (J2a & R1a-Z93) were NOT the same as proto-Indo-European speakers at the first place. Proto-Indo-European speakers predated those so called 'Aryans' who invaded Northern India by thousands of years...

Goga · Dec 6, 2014

The Kurgan theory by Gimbutas is from the fifties of the past century which became popular after the Nazi Germany and the WW2, this theory is very outdated. And with the current new archeological evidences (like Leyla Tepe, oldest Kurgans are in West Asia) of the past decennia and DNA science (like evidence that R1b* is from Asia), this idiotic so called 'Kurgan'-theory should be buried a very long time ago.

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Goga said:
The Kurgan theory by Gimbutas is from the fifties of the past century which became popular after the Nazi Germany and the WW2, this theory is very outdated. And with the current new archeological evidences (like Leyla Tepe, oldest Kurgans are in West Asia) of the past decennia and DNA science (like evidence that R1b* is from Asia), this idiotic so called 'Kurgan'-theory should be buried a very long time ago.

Goga you as an amateur can't just spit in the face of mainstream theories and throw out your own ideas, and expect people to take you seriously. You're coming off as very arrogant. I'm not your enemy, and don't take what I'm saying as an attack. I think you need to do alot more research before coming to such strong conclusions.

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Goga, no one is attacking west Asians. Your opinon should not be formed because you feel west Asians are being attacked or because of ethno-centrism.

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

Krefter14 said:
Goga, no one is attacking west Asians. Your opinon should not be formed because you feel west Asians are being attacked or because of ethno-centrism.

Who is saying that I believe anybody is attacking me? I'm following and I'm reading about this topic for at least 13 years. Sure, I never studied genetics, but I did different studies (on university) that are related to history. I'm just using archeology. After a flood of new evidence people are still ignorant. It's actually very ridiculous. Because they just can't accept the reality. It has nothing to do with ethnocentrism or nationalism or even racism, but just telling the truth and nothing but the truth. It is what it is, nobody can change the reality.

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

Krefter14 said:
Goga you as an amateur can't just spit in the face of mainstream theories and throw out your own ideas, and expect people to take you seriously. You're coming off as very arrogant. I'm not your enemy, and don't take what I'm saying as an attack. I think you need to do alot more research before coming to such strong conclusions.

I may sound arrogant because I'm 1000% sure I'm right. I'm reading about this for at least 15 years, since the time I was just a teenager and every time I find new evidences about my established perception. Why am I intersted in this topic? Well it is very simple because I LOVE history, I'm a history geek. I'm an Ezdi Kurd. I'm fascinated by my origin and the history of my 'Aryan' ancestors, the Medes. My native language is Kurdic which belongs to a west Aryan stock. I love to find out more details about my ancestors and about things they did. To better understand yourself, to be prepared for the things to come (future), one should know his own history. History makes human human. And it seems that my Aryan language is part of a greater Indo-European language family, that's why I'm followig this issue (about PIE) for many years...

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

I do admit, I don't understand much about how people extract human genetics from DNA and make models out of it. I don't really understand this process, because I never studied it, and I don't want to study it anytime soon. But I think I do know enough to understand the migration of human Y-DNA haplogroups. I believe that I'm not that ignorant to understand that R* rose somewhere in the East and migrated into Europe as R1a and R1b through the Iranian Plateau. So this is a very first sketch of this puzzle. It migrated from the East to West. Why did R1* migrated through the Iranian Plateau and not the steppes, well because there are many ancient traces of BOTH R1b* and R1a* that have been found all over the Iranian Plateau and not the Steppes. Also the archeology does support the migration waves from East to West. From West Asia to Europe and India. The most ancient civilizations have been found around the Mesopotamia and the Iranian Plateau. And it seems that ALL current human civilizations are influenced by the Mesopotamian/Sumerian civilizations. Many WESTERN scholars draw many migrations patters and found out that people from Mesopotamia / the Iranian Plateau migrated into the Caucasus. There're archeological evidences for it. AND also genetic evidences for it. J2a, R1b* etc. in the Caucasus are from the South. They tested many skeletons around the Maykop horizon and found that that those folks came from the South, and were West Asian kind of folks. They studied their culture (ceramics, burials etc) and found out that their culture is also from the South.

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

Russian ACADEMIC Vyacheslav Vsevolodovich Ivanov about PIEans from West Asia, so not really ethnocentric, is it? :

Also NOTICE that Göbekli Tepe and Leyla Tepe culture were discovered after Gimbutas Kurgan theory. Actually, the last decades archaeologists discovered much more new evidences what makes the Kurgan theory of Gimbutas very outdated! I'm not even speaking about the genetics.

Leyla Tepe linked to the Sumerians (Ubaid) AND the Maykop !!!!

Leyla Tepe culture

The Leyla-Tepe culture is a culture of archaeological interest from the Chalcolithic era. Its population was distributed on the southern slopes of the Central Caucasus (modern Azerbaijan, Agdam District), from 4350 until 4000 B.C . Similar amphora burials in the South Caucasus are found in the Western Georgian Jar-Burial Culture.
The culture has also been linked to the north Ubaid period monuments, in particular, with the settlements in the Eastern Anatolia Region. The settlement is of a typical Western-Asian variety,with the dwellings packed closely together and made of mud bricks with smokeoutlets.
It has been suggested that the Leyla-Tepe were the founders of the Maykop culture . An expedition to Syria bythe Russian Academy of Sciences revealed the similarity of the Maykop and Leyla-Tepe artifacts with those found recently while excavating the ancientcity of Tel Khazneh I, from the 4th millennium BC.
In 2010, nearly 200 Bronze Agesites were reported stretching over 60 miles between the Kuban and Nalchik rivers, at an altitude of between 4,620 feet and 7,920 feet. They were all "visibly constructed according to the same architectural plan, with an oval courtyard in the center, and connected byroads."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture

Moooore :

"Can we finally identify the real cradle ofIndo-Europeans?"

http://new-indology.blogspot.in/2014/10/can-we-finally-identify-real-cradle-of.html

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Goga said:
I may sound arrogant because I'm 1000% sure I'm right.

That is arrogance. I'm not 100% sure about anything to do with history, but I'm confident about several subjects. It's okay to say you tend to think one theory is right, but to say you're 100% sure a theory is right, is being arrogant.

Goga said:
Why am I intersted in this topic? Well it is very simple because I LOVE history, I'm a history geek. I'm an Ezdi Kurd. I'm fascinated by my origin and the history of my 'Aryan' ancestors, the Medes. My native language is Kurdic which belongs to a west Aryan stock. I love to find out more details about my ancestors and about things they did. To better understand yourself, to be prepared for the things to come (future), one should know his own history.

I'm became interested in history for the same reasons. I think the same is true for most people on these online blogs.

You're right that knowing history helps us understand our own time, and has many other benefits.

Goga said:
I do admit, I don't understand much about how people extract human genetics from DNA and make models out of it. I don't really understand this process, because I never studied it, and I don't want to study it anytime soon. But I think I do know enough to understand the migration of human Y-DNA haplogroups.

Human genetics is the greatest tool next to archaeology to understanding who our pre-historic ancestors were. It's very important to understand. It is not very difficult to get useful information out of "human genetics".

If you don't understand human genetics how do you know enough to understand the migrations of human Y DNA?

Goga said:
The most ancient civilizations have been found around the Mesopotamia and the Iranian Plateau.

That has nothing to do with Indo Europeans. It's like if 5,000 years from now there was a debate on where Islam began and someone said Europe because that's where the most advanced people were living in the 1500-2000's.

Goga said:
They tested many skeletons around the Maykop horizon and found that that those folks came from the South, and were West Asian kind of folks.

When you say test do you mean DNA? If so, there was one mtDNA sample taken from Maykop, last year, and that's it so far.

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Goga, everything can't come from west Asia. I used to be very ethnocentric and I can see many of my old traits in you.

Also, you should not come to such big conclusions without being an academic and without a lot of evidence. I remember I used to make my conclusions before I even saw evidence then forced the evidence to favor my theory. It seems that's what you're doing. You should look at the evidence and let it speak for it self. Be ready to change your opinion as the evidence reveals it self.

Saying a certain haplogroup, language, or culture originated in a certain region doesn't make it superior in any way to another. I used to be 100% against anyone saying anything in Europe could possible come from west Asia, because I felt that somehow made Europe inferior. I feel you're the same way with west Asia as I was with Europe.

Instead of repeating the same west Asian-origin theory you should look over all the evidence and wait and simply discuss ideas instread of putting your whole-heart for one theory.

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

Krefter14 said:
If you don't understand human genetics how do you know enough to understand the migrations of human Y DNA?

By following and find patterns in human genealogy, family tree etc. By following the migration of a lineage from a place of origin to a current location. Comparing it with other genealogies and again finding patterns. By studying human Y-DNA you can describe the movement of specific haplogroups from A to B. Patterns, it's all about the patterns!

Krefter14 said:
That has nothing to do with Indo Europeans. It's like if 5,000 years from now there was a debate on where Islam began and someone said Europe because that's where the most advanced people were living in the 1500-2000's.

Lol, since when is Islam an advanced religion? Only such a backward place like Arabia could produce such a religion.

Krefter14 said:
When you say test do you mean DNA? If so, there was one mtDNA sample taken from Maykop, last year, and that's it so far.

Well, culturally Maykop is linked to the Sumerians (Uruk) and Leyla-tepe

Krefter14 said:
Goga, everything can't come from west Asia. I used to be very ethnocentric and I can see many of my old traits in you.

Also, you should not come to such big conclusions without being an academic and without a lot of evidence. I remember I used to make my conclusions before I even saw evidence then forced the evidence to favor my theory. It seems that's what you're doing. You should look at the evidence and let it speak for it self. Be ready to change your opinion as the evidence reveals it self.

Saying a certain haplogroup, language, or culture originated in a certain region doesn't make it superior in any way to another. I used to be 100% against anyone saying anything in Europe could possible come from west Asia, because I felt that somehow made Europe inferior. I feel you're the same way with west Asia as I was with Europe.

Instead of repeating the same west Asian-origin theory you should look over all the evidence and wait and simply discuss ideas instread of putting your whole-heart for one theory.

WIth ALL due respect, I'm not you and you're not me. We are both different individuals!

And yes, not everything is from West Asia, but most of the things in Europe ARE actually from West Asia. Maykop culture was located in West Asia and influenced by Mesopotamian cultures, religion Christianity is from SouthWest Asia, agriculture, metallurgy, algebra, policy (politics) are from West Asia etc, etc. Some folks like it or not, Europe has always been a backyard of West Asia!

And you're missing the point completely. For me it doesn't have anything to do with superiority, but the truth, the reality. I know that a conception 'reality' is a human construction, think about ontology & epistemology. But some things you just can't change. You just can't deny the place of origin of some cultures and races. No matter what some say, earth, land, people are material, they exist because you think you can 'touch' it. You CAN'T change your inner self if you change history just by words. You can only change presence if you have a time machine...

I don't care about superior-inferior nonsenses. There is no such thing as a superior 'culture', because there is always something better in other cultures. We humans witnessed many great civilizations. Not only in Europe or West Asia, but also in India and China. It's all about human perception. Many believe that thousands of years non-stop Chinese civilization is the most superior one to any other civilization!

It's not about me vs. the universe, but I do care about the truth and reality that truly existed! My parents gave me brains, so I do let my brains work for me and think...

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Europe and west Asia are man made ideas. You could group both together if you'd like. There's a lot that has come from west Asia into Europe, but there's no law that says developments have to follow that direction. Developments have gone from Europe into west Asia in recent centuries. Unless pre-hisoric people understood north, south, west, east, map making, and whatever else, people movements could have been largely random(they didn't know where they were going, and it was very gradual).

Indo European languages in Europe did not come directly from west Asia, or from a genetically west Asian-like people. This has been proven with ancient DNA. Indo european languages came to Europe with people similar to steppe people who were members of the Yamna culture. Whether the Indo European language came from west Asia before that or not is up to debate, but genetically speaking when it came to Europe they weren't west Asian-like.

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

Krefter14 said:
Indo European languages in Europe did not come directly from west Asia, or from a genetically west Asian-like people. This has been proven with ancient DNA. Indo european languages came to Europe with people similar to steppe people who were members of the Yamna culture. Whether the Indo European language came from west Asia before that or not is up to debate, but genetically speaking when it came to Europe they weren't west Asian-like.

Last centuries, Europe influenced West Asia, It's like the son influencing his own father. And there was no progress in West Asia at all, due to all those wars AND Islam. Because of the Mongols (Turks) and the Arabs. They stopped progress in West Asia. But Ancient Europe was formed & MADE by West Asia. Ancient Rome, Greece was made by philosophy how to govern from West Asia, from the times of the Sumerians. Also, don't forget that most progression (like banking system, science) in Europe was caused by the JEWS!!!
And you're making a mistake here. Europeans were NEVER Indo-Europised by race, only by language. But Europeans came actually from West Asia thousands of years ealier as agriculturists/farmers from Near East. Most of the modern Europeans are only Indo-Europised by language & culture and not by race. Racially speaking the Italians and Greeks are racially the most Indo-European Europeans.

LeBrok · Dec 7, 2014

Goga said:
By following and find patterns in human genealogy, family tree etc. By following the migration of a lineage from a place of origin to a current location. Comparing it with other genealogies and again finding patterns. By studying human Y-DNA you can describe the movement of specific haplogroups from A to B. Patterns, it's all about the patterns!

Yes it is, but unfortunately you concluded that you are good in it.

Lol, since when is Islam an advanced religion? Only such a backward place like Arabia could produce such a religion.

This is coming from the same guy who said this:

I don't care about superior-inferior nonsenses. There is no such thing as a superior 'culture', because there is always something better in other cultures.

Can you see the contradiction in your statements? And don't make me going through all you post to cite sentences bursting with your superiority complex and hyper nationalism.

LeBrok · Dec 7, 2014

Goga said:
Last centuries, Europe influenced West Asia, It's like the son influencing his own father. And there was no progress in West Asia at all, due to all those wars AND Islam. Because of the Mongols (Turks) and the Arabs. They stopped progress in West Asia. But Ancient Europe was formed & MADE by West Asia. Ancient Rome, Greece was made by philosophy how to govern from West Asia, from the times of the Sumerians. Also, don't forget that most progression (like banking system, science) in Europe was caused by the JEWS!!!
And you're making a mistake here. Europeans were NEVER Indo-Europised by race, only by language. But Europeans came actually from West Asia thousands of years ealier as agriculturists/farmers from Near East. Most of the modern Europeans are only Indo-Europised by language & culture and not by race. Racially speaking the Italians and Greeks are racially the most Indo-European Europeans.

I can see some pattern in your posts. You always mix some facts with a lot of nonsense.

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

LeBrok said:
This is coming from the same guy who said this:

Huh? Well, only this summer Daesh (ISIS), SUNNI MUSLIMS, committed a genocide against my people in the name of Islam. FACT!!! How do you think my position should be toward, Muslims, Islam, Turks and Arabs? I love my people, and I'm proud, but I'm not a nationalist. I'm, like French say it, a chauvinist! I'm a friendly guy in real non-virtual world and cause no damage toward or harm anybody / anything. And will NEVER do. But I have a some kind of fetish for the truth. Justice is very important for me. Live and let live! But those unjust people who don't let me live in justice & truth will be opposed by me as long as I can and want!

Goga · Dec 7, 2014

LeBrok said:
I can see some pattern in your posts. You always mix some facts with a lot of nonsense.

Recognizing patterns and mathematical equations were always my strongest point. But I'm a good fella, so I'll explain what I mean. I don't think that R1b was the only marker of proto-Italo-Celts. I believe that J2a was also among the Maykop folks who linguistically Indo-Europised Europe. Italians and Greeks have lots of West Asian aDNA, they have also lots of Y-DNA hg. J2a. According to me J2a was part of the original proto-Indo-European Speakers who migrated into the Maykop. J2a is still dominating that area (Northern Caucasus). And of ALL Europeans, Italians, Greeks and maybe some folks close to Black Sea have the most of J2a.

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Goga said:
Last centuries, Europe influenced West Asia, It's like the son influencing his own father.

Like I said before Europe and west Asia are man made ideas. I doubt the Greeks saw themselves with Germans as European, and saw Jews and Persians as West Asians. The concept of West Asia and Europe probably weren't used till recent times. The phrase near east(near Europe) for example was obviously created by Europeans in recent years, and an ancient near eastern would not identify as near eastern.

I would bet money Greeks weren't seen as "European" by near easterns, but were simply seen as Greeks.

Goga said:
But Ancient Europe was formed & MADE by West Asia. Ancient Rome, Greece was made by philosophy how to govern from West Asia, from the times of the Sumerians. Also, don't forget that most progression (like banking system, science) in Europe was caused by the JEWS!!!

I'm not disputing that west Asia, and people with a high amount of middle eastern-specfic ancestry(defined by "basal Eurasian") have made a big impact on Europe's history.

Goga said:
And you're making a mistake here. Europeans were NEVER Indo-Europised by race, only by language. But Europeans came actually from West Asia thousands of years ealier as agriculturists/farmers from Near East. Most of the modern Europeans are only Indo-Europised by language & culture and not by race. Racially speaking the Italians and Greeks are racially the most Indo-European Europeans.

Europeans are a mix of native-European hunter gatherers and middle eastern-type people. Native-ME ancestry varies in Europe, an average European will literally be an about 50/50 mix.

Ancient DNA has proven that a big chunk of modern Europeans ancestry derives from Yamna-type people. Also, that it arrived with the CWC culture, who like Yamna is suspected to be Indo European.

Italians and Greeks have around the lowest amount of Yamna-type ancestry in Europe.

Krefter14 · Dec 7, 2014

Goga being a nationalist isn't bad. Being a supremacist is bad. It's good that you're proud to be Kurd and west Asian. But don't worry about people trying to make your people appear inferior or less great than you think they are with history and DNA, because they're aren't trying to do that.

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