Politics Balkanian disagreements.

Lets meet the Turk-Albanians,

turkish_generals-630x400.jpg



as you at above picture, and as deja-vu said,
the military officers that made the last actions at Turkey were Turk-Albanians
they reach even the high rank of 2nd Army High rank General coomanders,
it is seemed that more than 40% of a degree above major are from Albania or Albanian origin,

as every-body in Balkans call them, the Turk-Albanians,

they have nothing common with Kastrioti, they sons of Vallavan Pasha, and Turks, they served the Ottomans,
but as it seems from the last events in Turkey, Turks no longer trust them,

Thanks for this post, I have started the day with a smile. "Turks no longer trust them" :grin::grin::grin:

You and your hateful, paranoic theories :LOL:

Being Albanian in Turkey, is not like being Turk in Greece or being Catalan in Spain.

It is like being Irish, Italian or German in America. They are mentioning their ancestry. Bosnian, Albanian, Laz and Tatar are heavily asimilated in Turkey.
 
Thanks for this post, I have started the day with a smile. "Turks no longer trust them" :grin::grin::grin:

You and your hateful, paranoic theories :LOL:

Being Albanian in Turkey, is not like being Turk in Greece or being Catalan in Spain.

It is like being Irish, Italian or German in America. They are mentioning their ancestry. Bosnian, Albanian, Laz and Tatar are heavily asimilated in Turkey.

Hello Boreas, we missed you for some time. What's happen in Turkey? Can you tell us your point of view?
But maybe not here but in the other thread about the situation in Turkey.
 
Hello Boreas, we missed you for some time. What's happen in Turkey? Can you tell us your point of view?
But maybe not here but in the other thread about the situation in Turkey.

36590C2500000578-3693729-image-m-3_1468712263969.jpg

Erdoğan and the leader of military coup.

They put these guys in military against kemalist. They worked together in many years. But because of unknown reason, they started to fight. The last events were result of this conflict, it didn't a real military attack.

I am afraid of possiblity of this shit will turn second Reichstag fire (they also attack Turkish parliament)[h=3][/h]
 
36590C2500000578-3693729-image-m-3_1468712263969.jpg

Erdoğan and the leader of military coup.

They put these guys in military against kemalist. They worked together in many years. But because of unknown reason, they started to fight. The last events were result of this conflict, it didn't a real military attack.

I am afraid of possiblity of this shit will turn second Reichstag fire (they also attack Turkish parliament)[h=3][/h]
I agree with you, this is like the burning of Reichstag.
And with pro-kemalist political forces in Turkey, what's happen?
 
Dinarid, VMRO1893

There is no need to seek a multitude of sources, in one sources you have facts. Anyhow other sources can be use for comparison.

American Pew Research Center gives detailed data about Muslim population in the world and projections

2010

% Muslims

Albania 80.3%

Austria 5.4%

Belgium 5.9%

Bosnia and Herzegovina 40.2%

Bulgaria 13.7%

Czech Republic <0.1%

Croatia 1.4%

France 7.5%

Germany 5.8%

Greece 5.3%

Hungary <0.1%

Serbia 4.1%
Kosovo* 93.8%

Slovakia 0.2%

Macedonia 39.3%

Montenegro 18.7%

Romania 0.3%

Slovenia 3.6%

Spain 2.1%

UK 4.8%


2030 (by projections without mass migrations)

Albania 83.6%

Austria 7.1%

Belgium 8.9%

Bosnia and Herzegovina 47.7%

Bulgaria 14.6%

Czech Republic 0.4%

Croatia 1.7%

France 9.1%

Germany 7.9%

Greece 6.5%

Hungary 0.2%

Serbia 5%
Kosovo* 94.7%

Slovakia 0.4%

Macedonia 47.9%

Montenegro 21.9%

Romania 0.4%

Slovenia 4.3%

Spain 3.3%

UK 6.1%
If you take into account actual religious practice and a more accurate census the results would be completely different.
 
When discussing Albanians there is a very slippery slope. Anti-Albanian sentiment reeks of YouTube neo-Nazi commenter rants (dark and therefore non-Europeans, uncivilized, backwards, etc.) all related in my opinion to the glorification of romantic Nordicism and association of anything east of Germany as backwards and "Eastern Europe isn't really European" etc.
 
If you take into account actual religious practice and a more accurate census the results would be completely different.

No.

American Pew Research Center is very serious and it is considered as most relevant for these themes in the world.

http://www.pewresearch.org/about/

All subjects in the world including science, politics, NGO etc. use their data.

This research organization takes in account all actual religious practices and for every country in the world gives data about Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. including unaffiliated and atheists, and projections for every 10 years till 2050.

Some right-wing supporters in Europe think Pew reduces number Muslims in European countries, but they cannot prove it, however if Pew data are correct we can speak about margin of error.

For Balkans, you can notice according Pew, Macedonia will have Muslim majority 2040:

Christians 840,000 (46.7%)

Muslims 930.000 (52.1%)

Yes Muslim rise in the Balkans and you can see in the word:

The future of world religions: Population growth projections, 2010-2050

Why Muslims are rising fastest and the unaffiliated are shrinking as a share of a World's population

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/


In the world

2010

Christians 2.1 bill. (31.4%)

Muslims 1.6 bill. (23.2%)


2050

projections

Christians 2.9 bill. (31.4%)

Muslims 2.8 bill. (29.7%)
 
When discussing Albanians there is a very slippery slope. Anti-Albanian sentiment reeks of YouTube neo-Nazi commenter rants (dark and therefore non-Europeans, uncivilized, backwards, etc.) all related in my opinion to the glorification of romantic Nordicism and association of anything east of Germany as backwards and "Eastern Europe isn't really European" etc.

I don't think that anti Albanian propaganda is related to romantic Nordicism. It's all slavo-orthodox propaganda. Just look who attack the Albanians in this forum, serbs and members from FYROM. Nothing to do with religion or race. It's all ethnic hatred because this nation prevents expansion of the Slavs to the Adriatic and Ionian.
 
When discussing Albanians there is a very slippery slope. Anti-Albanian sentiment reeks of YouTube neo-Nazi commenter rants (dark and therefore non-Europeans, uncivilized, backwards, etc.) all related in my opinion to the glorification of romantic Nordicism and association of anything east of Germany as backwards and "Eastern Europe isn't really European" etc.

You're right.

For example who speak about Albanians as Caucasian Albanians he or she makes mistake, it is coincidence, and there no connection. It is same thing for linking Albanians and Turks. It is no correct.

But Albanians do same thing. Enver Hoxha had dream that Albanias are Illyrians and Pelasgians, and he commanded whole science to prove his dream. In this situation scientists were not scientists but performers his commands. Unfortunately it entered in school system and every Albanian think he or she is Illyrian, but it is not true. After Enver Hoxha new authorities have not changed for this point.

For example you can read the book:

Archaeology under dictatorship
Springer, 2006

Michael L. Galaty (Mississippi, USA)
Charles Watkinson (New Jersey, USA)

Chapter 2
Albanian archaeology and Enver Hoxha
(pages 8-16)


(Quotе)
Hoxha also emphasized the autochthonous ethnogenesis of the Albanians, tracing their origins to the ancient Illyrians (cf. Slapsak and Novakovic, 1996:269-272 for examples of the political appropriation of "Illyrian" archaeology and history by the Slovenian state). At his insistence, Albanian linguists and philologists connected the Albanian language, unlike any other in Europe, to the extinct language of the Illyrians. Physical anthropologists sought to prove that Albanians were biologically distinct from other Indo-European populations (now dis-proved through genetic analysis; see Belledi et al., 2000). Money poured into the Albanian Academy of Science, specifically earmarked for investigations of Illyrian archaeology (Miraj and Zeqo, 1993). The developing archaeological framework, sanctioned and enforced by the Hoxha government, made clear that the ancestors of modern day Albanians had once possessed a unique culture and, more importantly, had controlled a large and unified territory Under Hoxha, Albanian archaeologists argued that southern Albanian Iron Age urban centers, often indistinguishable from Greek-style poleis, were in reality wholly Illyrian, and that more often than not, Greeks were the beneficiaries of Illyrian ideas and innovations, as opposed to the other way around. For example, the names of the majority of Greek gods and goddesses were said to stem from Illyrian, not Greek, root words.

(End of quotе)
...

(Quote)
Under the communist government, Albanian archaeologists found themselves in a potentially difficult position. They had to toe the party line, or risk punishment, the most common being internal exile (though Korkuti could not recall a single case of an archaeologist being punished outright by the government). At the same time, archaeologists were the most likely of all Albanians to be allowed out of the closed country (to travel to other communist countries, but also to the west; Korkuti, for example, studied in France under Francois Bordes). For Hoxha, this made archaeologists both valuable propagandists and a potential threat. Strangely, with the fall of the communist government, many archaeologists became leading politicians—Neritan Ceka, a member of the Albanian parliament, being a good example (cf. similar examples of this phenomenon from the former Soviet Union in Chemykh, 1995:144). Archaeologists were among the limited number of citizens who possessed knowledge of western-style democracies and capitalist economic systems, and who also had contacts in the outside world. They naturally moved into positions of political leadership.

The political crises of the late 1980s and early 1990s saw the end of the financial and intellectual certainties of the post-war period for archaeologists (Miraj and Zeqo, 1993:125). However, as a new political economy developed in Albania, politicians (some of them archaeologists) found that the Hoxha regimes take on the past was in fact a very useful one (cf. Chernykh, 1995 for similarities to modern Russia). Because it was intended to help build an Albanian national identity, it could serve the same purpose in a capitalist democracy that it had in a communist dictatorship. However, in the dangerous environment of the post-communist Balkans, building a national identity might easily slide into nationalism and inflammatory calls for territorial expansion (cf. Slapsak and Novakovic, 1996). For Albanians, the connection between nationalistic politics and archaeology is especially strong in Kosovo, a region of Serbia nominally claimed by Albania, and in southern Albania, a part of Albania claimed by Greece, so-called "Northern Epirus." In 2001 and 2002, teams of Albanian archaeologists from Tirana travelled to Kosovo to undertake archaeological research, but the trips might more accurately be seen as a political statement: "We, Albanians, now control Kosovo's past." Ethnic Albanian scholars from Kosovo also attended the recent international symposium "Archaeological Year 2002" held in Tirana, Albania. Their Albanian colleagues, having escaped dictatorship in 1991, tutored them on the difficulties of the transition to democracy, often referring to the new "nation" of Kosovo. In these situations, Albanian archaeology, especially archaeological interpretations of the lllyrians, are often (though, not always) applied uncritically and in general are still not open to serious debate. As the Croatian scholar Predrag Matvejevic noted—prophetically and rather matter-of-factly—in his 1987 book, published in the United States in 1999 under the title Mediterranean: A Cultural Landscape: "The multiplicity of peoples in Illyria will make for major problems when the time for nation-building comes to the Balkans" (198).
(End of quote)
 
Dinarid

We can discuss about different things, including unfortunate relations between Serbs and Croats (but Serbs and Croats according Y-DNA are most closely related to each other) but

two issues become key for the Balkans:

1) growth of Muslim population (as you can see in Pew research and projection plus mass migrations which this growth can double or triple)

2) growth of radical Islam (including Wahhabism and Salafi movement) which is reported by many American and European researchers.
 
I agree with you, this is like the burning of Reichstag.
And with pro-kemalist political forces in Turkey, what's happen?

Kemalists are pretty insignificant in this
 
Dinarid

We can discuss about different things, including unfortunate relations between Serbs and Croats (but Serbs and Croats according Y-DNA are most closely related to each other) but

two issues become key for the Balkans:

1) growth of Muslim population (as you can see in Pew research and projection plus mass migrations which this growth can double or triple)

2) growth of radical Islam (including Wahhabism and Salafi movement) which is reported by many American and European researchers.

Focusing this like cutting unwanted tree's branches. It is not about cutting it. A kind of narrow perspective.

Is the issue just wahabis
Cnk7In-WYAAG61U.jpg


Or

Unrespectful people to opposite side ?
000_Par7568866.jpg

Mosque protest in Athens
 
Boreas

We didn't finish discussion related with Kurds, but I wanted to ask you something else, what is today's Turkish position related with Cyprus. It is not directly linked with Balkans but it is not far from thread.
 
I don't think that anti Albanian propaganda is related to romantic Nordicism. It's all slavo-orthodox propaganda. Just look who attack the Albanians in this forum, serbs and members from FYROM. Nothing to do with religion or race. It's all ethnic hatred because this nation prevents expansion of the Slavs to the Adriatic and Ionian.
Well I do see Nordicists from Stormfront and the like spewing their vitriolic hatred of Albanians because apparently all "true" Europeans need to belong to the Nordic race and have pasty skin.
 
Wikipedia article
2011 Census

An [sic] August 2012, a Pew Research study found out that only 15% of the Muslim population for example, consider religion as a very important factor in their lives, which was the lowest percentage in the world amongst countries with significant Muslim populations.[53] Another survey conducted by Gallup Global Reports 2010 shows that religion plays a role to 39% of Albanians, and lists Albania as the thirteenth least religious country in the world.[54] Also in Albania the majority of the males are not circumcised (as demanded by Islamic customs)
 

Dinarid, you know that Albania was atheistic country. Communist Enver Hoxha arranged the life of Albanians.

Ger Duijzings

"However, in 1967 two decades after the communist rise to power Enver Hoxha's Stalinist regime, prohibited all forms of religious activity".

In SR Serbia - AP Kosovo and Metohiya and SR Macedonia situation were completely different.

And you can see, in Albania situation changed. Enver Hoxha died 1985, over 30 years passed.

But it is natural, why people to be atheists if they don't want.

Pew gives data about every country and these data are relevant, whole world use them.

About 16% people in the world are not affiliated with religion and 3/4 are in Asia.

And what is interesting, a lot of people today think that this is century of reduction of religion, but NO.

According Pew projections 2050 about 13% people in the world will not be affiliated with religion, 3% less than today!

...
You know situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Similar is somewhere in the Balkans.

In principle we should believe in research organizations and their experts.

What they tell us is interesting, you should analyze their data.


According Pew

Bosnia and Herzegovina

2010

Christians 1,970,000 52.3%

Muslims 1,700,000 45.2%


2050

Christians 1,270,000 48.5%

Muslims 1,290,000 49.4%


Macedonia

2010

Christians 1,220,000 (59.3%)

Muslims 810,000 (39.3%)

2050

Christians 710,000 (42.7%)

Muslims 930,000 (56.2%)
 
Thanks for this post, I have started the day with a smile. "Turks no longer trust them" :grin::grin::grin:

You and your hateful, paranoic theories :LOL:

Being Albanian in Turkey, is not like being Turk in Greece or being Catalan in Spain.

It is like being Irish, Italian or German in America. They are mentioning their ancestry. Bosnian, Albanian, Laz and Tatar are heavily asimilated in Turkey.
"Hateful"- you do realize that as a Turk, your nation has been responsible for centuries of oppression of our people? You do realize that when we hear Turkish Islamists nowadays bragging about restoring the Ottoman Empire and Turkish hegemony over the Balkans using Albanian and Bosnian Muslims it provokes a particularly strong sense of revulsion among us?

If Albanian identity can be de-Islamized than so can Turkish, which we have clearly seen with Kemalism. But most Turkish ambitions in our peninsula are directly related to Islam, a religion which most of us despise, and no, we don't care about being called racist or Islamophobic. It's a vile, hateful cult incorrectly called a religion.
 
Boreas
We didn't finish discussion related with Kurds, but I wanted to ask you something else, what is today's Turkish position related with Cyprus. It is not directly linked with Balkans but it is not far from thread.

It is good to admit that Cyprus is not located in Europe.

In Turkey, Cyprus is really out of topic. One day Turkey can cancel the nagotiations, then he can start. Check Turkey's Israel and Russian relationships. There is logic, no long term plan.

My personel idea is United Cyprus will be time bomb.
 
Dinarid, you know that Albania was atheistic country. Communist Enver Hoxha arranged the life of Albanians.

Ger Duijzings

"However, in 1967 two decades after the communist rise to power Enver Hoxha's Stalinist regime, prohibited all forms of religious activity".

In SR Serbia - AP Kosovo and Metohiya and SR Macedonia situation were completely different.

And you can see, in Albania situation changed. Enver Hoxha died 1985, over 30 years passed.

But it is natural, why people to be atheists if they don't want.

Pew gives data about every country and these data are relevant, whole world use them.

About 16% people in the world are not affiliated with religion and 3/4 are in Asia.

And what is interesting, a lot of people today think that this is century of reduction of religion, but NO.

According Pew projections 2050 about 13% people in the world will not be affiliated with religion, 3% less than today!

...
You know situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Similar is somewhere in the Balkans.

In principle we should believe in research organizations and their experts.

What they tell us is interesting, you should analyze their data.


According Pew

Bosnia and Herzegovina

2010

Christians 1,970,000 52.3%

Muslims 1,700,000 45.2%


2050

Christians 1,270,000 48.5%

Muslims 1,290,000 49.4%


Macedonia

2010

Christians 1,220,000 (59.3%)

Muslims 810,000 (39.3%)

2050

Christians 710,000 (42.7%)

Muslims 930,000 (56.2%)

The figures for Macedonia are inflated. In 2002 Macedonia was 65% Christian and 33% Muslim. Muslim numbers do not rise that fast.
 
The figures for Macedonia are inflated. In 2002 Macedonia was 65% Christian and 33% Muslim. Muslim numbers do not rise that fast.
I'm not sure if he is going to believe you. He is very afraid of Muslims, so they easily multiply in his eyes. ;)
Garrick, everything will be fine. :)
 

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