Politics Balkanian disagreements.

[Garrick]

I don't care much how it is called, so have it your way. At least we have a place to take off topic posts from some threads and continue here.

Thanks LeBrok. moderators duties are hard and you do all efforts to be all right.

I just want that Balkans deserves respect.

The Balkans is part of Europe, not Asia or Africa, and old name for Balkans which is Turkish term, is Peninsula of Haemus, that is Thracian name, in Greek mythology king Haemus of Thrace was son of Boreas.

Yes, today situation is difficult, Balkans is poor and depopulated area, what's interesting, while other parts in world advanced the Balkans went down.

But things can change, once SFR Yugoslavia which was advanced country in Central and Western Balkans, was more developed than South Korea, and today if Balkan countries act wisely can catch the momentum of growth and development.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Gorgonzola, I must twice because system receives only one clip.

In front of an audience in Prizren, Erdogan said

Kosovo is Turkey

and received applause.

Yes, applause by the Turkish minority of kosova. [emoji6] [emoji23]

 

[Yetos]

yes, applause by the turkish minority of kosova. [emoji6] [emoji23]

what is going on?

The sons of vallavan pasha deny their father?

 

[Piro Ilir]

what is going on?

The sons of vallavan pasha deny their father?

You probably know that in Kosova is a small Turkish minority.
Anyway, who is this Vallavan pasha and which are those sons of him you mentioning here. Can you be more precise please, because I don't get it [emoji45].

 

[Yetos]

You probably know that in Kosova is a small Turkish minority.
Anyway, who is this Vallavan pasha and which are those sons of him you mentioning here. Can you be more precise please, because I don't get it [emoji45].

Vallavan Vadera pasha

 

[Piro Ilir]

Ok, stop this nonsense. I don't care if Ottomans ordered Albanians to do it, or they did it voluntarily or opportunistically, or you don't hold them accountable, responsible or whatever. Fact is they enforced it, and the bigger problem is that they continued doing it in 20th and 21st century.

No one forced Serbs to leave. No serious source for this. Some Serbs were exchanged with Albanian inhabitants of Nis area. Today the Serbs are in a good and peaceful relationship with Albanians. I don't see any issue for dispute. Serbia is going in the right direction led by the prime minister Vucic. Today the Serbs of Kosova are participating on the government institutions of Kosova.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Aromani is the main composition of Albania,
the most significant population,
it seems that Vlach men and Slavic women made Albania
E-V13 R1b is very strong in Aromani populations


and about Kastrioti, search the paradox,
one by one your propaganda fails,

I don't know what are you talking here. You mean that vlachs were the majority on Albanian regions. Where were they. Ghosts!? You mean that the Albanian patriots were Vlachs? You mean that the the founders of the independent Albanian orthodox church were not Albanians, but they were Vlachs? You mean that the Albanian patriot Fan Noli who translated the holy written stuffs of the orthodox church into the Albanian language, was not an Albanian.
Albanian orthodox were an important part of the Albanian renaissance. They participate powerful on the building of new Albanian state. I mentioned on a previously post some Albanian orthodox individuals, who were among the best patriots. You are free to read about their life. They spend entire their lifetime contributing on the Albanian national issue .
I don't know much about the genetics, but I doubt your claim on the R1b and Ev13 . Both are part of Albanian lineage, especially in Kosova where the Ev13 has the higher pick. I know many Albanian orthodox, and only a very little percentage of them have Vlach roots.
And why Kastrioti is a paradox? I don't get your point here

 

[Piro Ilir]

In Albania for more decades (in time of Zogu and Hoxha) minorities didn't have rights. They couldn't belonging to their nation, didn't have right of mother language (about schools no question, nothing), even names they had to have Albanian etc. All inhabitants had to be only Albanians. Even today some nations in Albania have no their rights. Armanji (Aromanians) recognized only as cultural minority not national minority.

Armanji (Aromanians) mostly assimilated. We will see in next censuses if they have right of national minority. Arno Tarner in the book of forgotten minorities writes that today Armanji in Albania are about 100,000 - 200,000 (his estimate). Tom Winnifrith speaks about 200,000. They include and Armanji who speak only Albanian. Ali Pasha and other Albanian pashas, begs and fighters, together with Turks, destroyed Armanji population in Albania, and they are known facts. Once, capital of Armanji land, Moskopole had over 50,000 people, and it was one of the greatest cities in the Balkans. Today Voskopoja (Moskopole) is village with population 2,200 people, everyone can see extent of destruction. Armanji in Albania for centuries suffered oppression, and many have assimilated. They mostly saved their faith and today they are Orthodox Albanians.

One text:

http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1097921.html

"By the mid-18th century, Voskopoja had a population of nearly 50,000 and was reputed to be one of the largest towns in the Balkans. But in 1769, the Turks ordered the local Albanian bey [ruler] to destroy the town but to leave the churches standing, thus beginning a long decline.

Voskopoja today is being depopulated. According to last April's census, Voskopoja and the surrounding villages have a population of 2,200. Many inhabitants work in lowland cities or in Greece.

Dhori Fallo is a writer and local historian. He says Aromanian has always survived, despite difficult conditions: "There has been no school in Aromanian [in Voskopoja] since 1920. So [the Vlachs] had no other choice than to learn Albanian, even having to pay for private lessons. They were Albanian citizens and were only able to speak Aromanian at home."

Today, scholars believe more Vlachs reside in Albania's cities than in the countryside, in marked contrast to the rest of Albania's population. As a result, they say Aromanian is in greater danger than ever of falling into disuse.

No one has any idea exactly how many Vlachs live in Albania. British scholar Tom Winnifrith estimates their number at 200,000, while other estimates put them at well under 50,000. As a result of a decision by Albania's parliament, this year's census made no reference to ethnic identity, mother tongue, or religion."

During the communist dictatorship the whole population including Albanians didn't had any rights. Although Greeks and Vlachs were treated much better than the rest of the population. They were part of the communist leadership party. Moskopole is located in mountainous area. It is a touristic place today. You are free to visit. You will notice that this small city is too mountainous, and this is the reason why it decreased in population and in economic importance. The same happened on other cities of Albanian population. 60-70 of the Albanian territory is geographically mountainous region. There was not any kind of repression. Vlachs participated powerful on the Albanian renaissance. They generally had good and peaceful relations with the Albanians

 

[Piro Ilir]

so at least you admit the burn down of Moschopolis (relatives in law comes from there)
but what about Durres? first was Aromanian Speakers, second Greeks then Albanians what now?come onj
come on admit it, Goranje people when come to Greece say we are muslim Slavs, and they are >10% of population,
AT LEAST FACE THE TRUTH ONCE,

About which period of the history you are talking? Durres was inhabited by many ethnicities. It was an important economical center. One of the most important principalities of the medieval era was the principality of Arta, located from ambracian gulf spread further south until the gulf of Corinth. The Albanian lord was Gjin Bua Shpata. His principality was inhabited mostly by Albanians. So what? The Greeks living there are assimilated Albanians? We are talking about today

 

[Piro Ilir]

it is bigger Geopolitical and Geostrategical,
They are pushing Russia and Iran to enter the chess game, by Using Turkey
Turks might be second power in NATO, but they can be divided easily,
Besides History shows that Turks with out Kurds , Albanians or Greeks are very weak, like the Byzantines in their end,
after the fitvah against Ibrahim given by Kadi effents to Suleiman Turkey is decline, only Kemal could save her, and Erdogan is not Kemal,
he listen to suni imams more, than to normal logic,


the old list of terrorist from FOREIGN OFFICE USA, had as terrorists 3 groups
IRA in North Ireland
ETA in Vasquez country
PKK in Turkey
his action is Like Spain bombing Gascones in France for ETA
UK bombing ireland for IRA

he points that by ressurecting old memories of fear, and purposing on religious feelings, he would manage to get his power back,
and if not he might be dictator, playing the game of a 'religious reformer' against Kemal who was not so religious but more militaristic and industrialist
but the truth is that he is pushing Russia and Iran to enter, so give excuse for NATO to enter Iran for nuclear program,
he is smart, but plays with fire, a fire than can not only burn Turkey, but expand in Balkans, Ukjraine etc

I can expand more, but it will sound like Global conspiracy theories

In my opinion Erdogan is not a truly religious man. He just trying to use everything he can to stay in power as long as possible. He is trying to imitate Putin. Turkey is a great nation, we like it or not. They don't need sulltans for their empowerment.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Yes Yetos. In 17th and 18th century Armanji (Aromanians) were numerous and they wanted to create own state. But Albanians and Turks didn't allow it and they destroyed this nation. Swedish historian Johann Thunmann wrote that in these areas main language was Aromanian and people spoke Greek. Aromanian and Greek, not Albanian. Armanji ended tragically or they were assimilated or they had to escape. According some scholars about 200,000 inhabitants in Albania today are Armanji, though if we take in account time and extent of assimilation, their number can be much higher.

It can't be true. Only Moskopolje was recorded as an Vlach city. What about the Vlachs of Serbia. What happened with them,. The same assimilation which happened to the Albanians of Sandsak? !

 

[Ike]

No one forced Serbs to leave. No serious source for this. Some Serbs were exchanged with Albanian inhabitants of Nis area. Today the Serbs are in a good and peaceful relationship with Albanians. I don't see any issue for dispute. Serbia is going in the right direction led by the prime minister Vucic. Today the Serbs of Kosova are participating on the government institutions of Kosova.

So, now that you've cleansed the territory, you think that things between you and Serbians are all right? That they're gonna let you get away with that?

 

[Piro Ilir]

that is correct, but
Ottomans were responsable for the Armenian genocide and many other crimes
After Ottomans were defeated Ataturk founded a new Turkey which was going in the good direction
now there is a new nostalgia in Turkey for 'good old Ottoman times'
Erdogan is a dangerous man and he has many supporters inside Turkey who are nostalgic nationalists and/or believe in Muslim supremacy
he has lost last elections because many Kurds voted against him and now he tries to turn Kurds into outlaws

I don't see any divergence between our posts. We can't blame modern people, for what did their ancestors. People are responsible for their own actions

 

[Piro Ilir]

then can we blaim the Albanians for the massacre and burn down villages to Greeks?
from Epirus Nova to Peloponese?

To which case or event you are referring? I think you confound all the time Turks and Albanians. This is your problem, not mine.

 

[Piro Ilir]

So, now that you've cleansed the territory, you think that things between you and Serbians are all right? That they're gonna let you get away with that?

I could say the same for the ethnic cleansing of Nis and south Serbian territory. Albanians composed a large number of the population there before the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
So what they are gonna do ? Can you say that? And don't say "you" because I'm not representing any country nor any state here, only myself.
Ike, at least, Serbs never won a war against the Albanians. [emoji23]. For sure Albanians were among the best soldiers during millennia.
You like it or not, today relationships between Serbs and Albanians are good and are going on the right direction.
A new war with be tremendous and disastrous for the Serbs.

 

[Yetos]

To which case or event you are referring? I think you confound all the time Turks and Albanians. This is your problem, not mine.

search the father of Kolokotronis whith whom he mess and who were at the battle of Lalla

 

[Yetos]

To which case or event you are referring? I think you confound all the time Turks and Albanians. This is your problem, not mine.

the same thing

 

[Yetos]

It can't be true. Only Moskopolje was recorded as an Vlach city. What about the Vlachs of Serbia. What happened with them,. The same assimilation which happened to the Albanians of Sandsak? !

yes it is true

 

[Ike]

I could say the same for the ethnic cleansing of Nis and south Serbian territory. Albanians composed a large number of the population there before the Serbian ethnic cleansing.
So what they are gonna do ? Can you say that? And don't say "you" because I'm not representing any country nor any state here, only myself.
Ike, at least, Serbs never won a war against the Albanians. [emoji23]. For sure Albanians were among the best soldiers during millennia.
You like it or not, today relationships between Serbs and Albanians are good and are going on the right direction.
A new war with be tremendous and disastrous for the Serbs.

That's exactly what is the problem. If it was about war of Serbia against Albanians the result is undisputable, but from your expectations, you're obviously counting on a foreign involvement. Probably Turkey? That's why Albanians are so courageous last couple of decades. Always looking where to start a new war. The only thing I will tell you, if it gets so hot to be disastrous for Serbs it will also be devastating for Albanians and the region. Think about that before sending your troops.

 

[Garrick]

For those who contradict the Muslims,like you

No. If I speak positively about EU it doesn't means that contradict the Muslims. In general you are mistakenly thinking that EU has something against Muslims. Refuges from Muslim countries come in EU, not in other areas. And Serbia help these people as much as possible. You should be more real. The situation is difficult and people do what they can.